If you're muslim you can leave, dead if not

ajedigecko

fuck wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

ajedigecko wrote:

One of the following quotes...does not need historical context, to hold current day merit.


"Stone women for adultery."

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

there you go again ... taking a noter verse out of context

Actually, the Quran doesn't ever mention stoning. But it's not like you'd know.

Bukhari (83:37) - Adultery is one of three justifications for killing a person, according to Muhammad.

lukin2006

The Muslim population is also one of the fastest growing populations (if not the fastest), so it only stands to reason that Islam would be one of the fastest growing cults.

badbrains

lukin2006 wrote:

The Muslim population is also one of the fastest growing populations (if not the fastest), so it only stands to reason that Islam would be one of the fastest growing cults.

I was referring to the converters into the religion. All good tho.

aerial

dignin wrote:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

Pingfah wrote:

Yes I agree with that. The important thing is to respect people's right to believe what they want, without interference, provided their beliefs do not impinge anybody else's rights. But that doesn't mean you have to respect the actual beliefs.

I have no respect for belief in god, I think it is illogical, delusional and absurd and I have no problem telling people that, but I will fight for their freedom to openly believe in such nonsense.

then let me rephrase to what I actually meant: you have to respect everyone's right to believe in what they choose to believe

do I respect my brother? I used to. Just a few minutes ago he posted a quote on his facebook page, probably a passive aggressive attack on me: Belief: The opposite of belief is not unbelief; it is fear. :roll: what garbage.

he seems to think that if you don't believe in god, that equates to believing in nothing. My catholic wife once said this exact same thing to me until I tore a strip off her about how ignorant that statement was, and after that she understood.

That sucks man. I think I read earlier that your brother was a born again. They are the absolute worst for shoving their beliefs down peoples throats. You must rise above, as I'm sure you have.

What is considered the absolute worst "shoving beliefs down your throat"?
Is it that when they hold a gun to your head and say convert or your dead, raped, beheaded,or your child is raped?

goingtoverona

http://ph.news.yahoo.com/nigeria-boko-h ... tsrc=globe

something similar...."western education is forbidden"

ajedigecko

goingtoverona wrote:

http://ph.news.yahoo.com/nigeria-boko-haram-gunmen-open-fire-college-103035830.html?.tsrc=globe

something similar...."western education is forbidden"

Just read about it.

Sad

goingtoverona

sad is right. what's really sad is that it wasn't a school for c.i.a hitmen, wall street swindlers, or religious conversion. they just wanted to be fucking farmers. fucking farmers.

lukin2006

Apparently they want their own Islamic State. All religion sucks ... But no doubt this religion is the worst.

badbrains

lukin2006 wrote:

Apparently they want their own Islamic State. All religion sucks ... But no doubt this religion is the worst.

And as a Muslim I respect your opinion.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

goingtoverona wrote:

http://ph.news.yahoo.com/nigeria-boko-haram-gunmen-open-fire-college-103035830.html?.tsrc=globe

something similar...."western education is forbidden"

Chickenshit cowards that- according to the military- hit only 'soft' targets. 'Soft' meaning unarmed students and the like instead of military bases.

Sad thing is that when I die... I become dust. When these guys die they get a bunch of virgins to sleep with. The afterlife isn't fair.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

aerial wrote:

What is considered the absolute worst "shoving beliefs down your throat"?
Is it that when they hold a gun to your head and say convert or your dead, raped, beheaded,or your child is raped?

oh fuck, get real. they are the worst because they are like people who just quit smoking (I know because I was once one of those assholes) or lose a bunch of weight. all of a sudden they think everything they did is 100% right because it was a life change that made a vast improvement on their own life, so they project that outwardly on anyone who has a pair of working ears.

as a silly little example, anytime someone would mutter "oh my god", he'd say "not just yours" with a shit eating grin on his face.

and when we still lived under the same roof, his now-wife would see me come up from my room at noon on a Sunday all hungover and proceed to tell me, in my own fucking house, how I was going to hell for the lifestyle I was leading. fuck you. that's the problem. they take the words of jesus/the bible literally about it being their duty to convert anyone they know to christianity. that may have been relevant when they were trying to build the following, but now? fuck off. my brother thinks all homosexuals are deviants who are going to hell and can be "cured" through a relationship with god.

it's fucking bigotry.

aerial

goingtoverona wrote:

sad is right. what's really sad is that it wasn't a school for c.i.a hitmen, wall street swindlers, or religious conversion. they just wanted to be fucking farmers. fucking farmers.

That is sad....

dignin

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

aerial wrote:

What is considered the absolute worst "shoving beliefs down your throat"?
Is it that when they hold a gun to your head and say convert or your dead, raped, beheaded,or your child is raped?

oh fuck, get real. they are the worst because they are like people who just quit smoking (I know because I was once one of those assholes) or lose a bunch of weight. all of a sudden they think everything they did is 100% right because it was a life change that made a vast improvement on their own life, so they project that outwardly on anyone who has a pair of working ears.

as a silly little example, anytime someone would mutter "oh my god", he'd say "not just yours" with a shit eating grin on his face.

and when we still lived under the same roof, his now-wife would see me come up from my room at noon on a Sunday all hungover and proceed to tell me, in my own fucking house, how I was going to hell for the lifestyle I was leading. fuck you. that's the problem. they take the words of jesus/the bible literally about it being their duty to convert anyone they know to christianity. that may have been relevant when they were trying to build the following, but now? fuck off. my brother thinks all homosexuals are deviants who are going to hell and can be "cured" through a relationship with god.

it's fucking bigotry.

Yup. Plain and simple.

fuck

Alright, I decided to finally take some time to write a response. It's pretty long. I ask that you try to approach this with an open mind.

PJ_Soul wrote:

There are certainly many quote from the Quran saying that women and men are equal as far as how they practice their faith goes, and it does say that killing infant daughters is a sin, and that men should be chaste like women... So there are some things about certain kinds of equality in that book. However, it also says things like:

So my biggest problem with your commentary on Islam is how much you fundamentally lack an understanding of the sciences used to study it: whether it's an understanding of how to approach the texts, an understanding of just basic history of Islamic civilization, a grasp on the language itself, etc. I'll try to briefly explain the first point here, as I think I stressed the second point enough earlier in this topic.

There is actually a developed science about how to approach the text. The problem with both radicals and misogynist scholars is that they approach the science of Quranic exegesis with the aim of dissecting it verse by verse. Earlier in this thread, someone (adjeckto or something or other) kept quoting random, single Quranic verses. I didn't want to have to get into this whole topic so I tried to explain them individually, but clearly that's not going to work.

There are a few points we have to take into consideration when we study the Quran: first, many verses which seem contradictory aren't--they are either particular exceptions to a general rule, or abrogated (in that, their ruling no longer stands). So for instance, adjedkcko kept asking why Islam preaches the notion of forced conversion (an absurd accusation). First of all, when approaching the text, it is very clear in many instances that the notion of freedom of belief is entrenched deeply within Islam in verses like "there is no compulsion in religion," "to you your religion (or belief) and to me mine," and the verse I quoted earlier about humans having been created in many nations and tribes for a reason, thus dispelling any notion that all humans must or are even meant to be Muslim. So how do you explain other verses sanctioning warfare in light of these more general verses?

There is a science in Islam about the "general principles" underlying Islam that has existed for centuries. Many of these general principles are found in the Quran, such as the freedom of belief, having to establish justice, equality, etc. In fact, the overwhelming number of verses in the Quran are about general ideas like this (as well as theological concepts like a singular God, the afterlife, etc). Only a couple hundred of the over 6000 verses that exist in the Quran are actual legal junctions. As such, those legal junctions cannot ever conflict with these general principles that the Quran tells Muslims they have to make sure underlie their actions.

Allow me to provide an analogy: say, you're an avid antiwar pacifist who never believes in violence--even if someone were to hit you, you'd turn the other cheek or walk away. If someone were to break into your home however, threatening you or your family, you'd use every disposal at hand to stop the person, even if it means violence or killing the person. This is because the more general rule of having to protect yourself or your family outweighed, in this particular instance, your other principle of nonviolence.

This is what I was trying to explain earlier with the particular verses on warfare. You can't divorce them from the historical context, or the fact that one of the verses even explicitly mentions waging war in the context of "those who drove you from your homes."

Likewise, we can't disassociate Islam's birth from that society's context. It was a society in which women were incredibly disenfranchised. It was revolutionary (in the context of that time) the way in which Islam viewed women. As for polygamy, you can't disassociate it from the society. Marrying a huge number of wives was common in tribal societies, to the point where even limiting the number of wives to four was considered a restriction at that time. However, even the verse you quoted about polygamy very clearly has a general principle underlying it, which is the notion that you treat each woman completely equal to the other. There has been a huge number of scholars that have come out saying that because it is impossible to treat each woman equally, it cannot actually be practiced (which is why some Muslim countries have outlawed it).

Even the verse you quoted on inheritance: it is an incredibly controversial one, for sure. But what you have to take into account is the fact that when it was introduced, it was introduced alongside an entire other system: it was incumbent upon men to provide for women, whereas women were free to do as they wished with their money. I'm sure there are cases where in practice that was not the case, but you are not trying to argue practice right now, you're trying to argue what the legal injunction actually is. But because women have made so many achievements in the modern period, reformers have sought to argue that the old system which kept that inheritance law in place should now be abrogated, as it no longer fits within the context of our time, since the underlying principle of justice and equality has finally given women (theoretically) opportunities equal to men, so they should have the same share.

You might not care about all these different explanations. For all I know, you just quoted these verses having made up your mind and hoping to convince others. My real point here is to just explain to you that you really have no clue as to how sciences of interpretation and understanding of both the Quranic text as well as the historical and contemporary contexts are used to reconcile one another. It is an extremely complex science. I've spent years studying it and still have much more to learn. On the other hand, you have claimed having had a relationship with a Muslim man, which would not give you an understanding of Islam any more than dating a black guy would give you an understanding of the cultural and social disenfranchisement of the African-American community. It is an extremely complex topic that people spend decades studying. Anecdotal evidence, google searches (which is obviously how you found these verses since you clearly did not read the Quran), and bullshit statistics (like you quoting 20-30% of Muslims are extremist based on readings "here and there") simply don't work in a real discussion about this.

Yes, it is easy to find direct quotes from the Quran that show how Islam does not consider women equal to men. As a woman, I find it offensive when people try to claim that women are equal to men in Islam because it denies that there is a big problem in this regard both in the religion and in the culture.

Excuse me? As a woman you find it offensive? Um... how about: as a Muslim, I find you trying to even commentate on Islam based on virtually no real knowledge of it offensive.

I truly like the fact that you finally got to saying that there is a huge problem also in "the culture." Yes, it's so easy to say things are "cultural" problems, right? We in the West looove saying that about people in other, poorer countries. "Oh, it's just a cultural problem, they don't know any better," or "they're not advanced as we are." This is the problem with modern day liberal societies that see themselves as so much more advanced than others. Do you not see how your rhetoric is constantly of one more superior than others? For instance, you do not ever consider how Muslim women must feel about the things you say of their identity. How sexist of you! Do the hundreds of millions of Muslim women just not know any better? Are they just so oppressed that they have bought into the bullshit? Is that it? You know better than they do?

You can't view these things through a cultural lens. Culture is an entirely subjective topic, and people love to try to claim theirs as superior to others. It's much more than culture at play here. You really need to study the history of the civilization, the language, the various cultures existing within the Muslim world, their various histories and customs, the history of colonialism and its effect on the different parts of this part of the world, etc etc etc. This is an extremely dense topic which takes years of study. I'm sorry, but that's the fact, which is why ultimately I will say you lack an understanding in any of these issues, but I don't fault you for it nor do I consider it a problem with your intelligence, just your knowledge. I know that when topics are talked about a lot in the media, it makes it easy for people to become instant experts at it. But I think many in western societies need to practice some intellectual humility when it comes to Islam and Muslims.

The biggest problem in your line of arguments, Pj_soul, is in my opinion this: your endgame here is not truly women's equality. I'm sure you want that, but what you want more than anything is for people to say "religion is bullshit" or "some parts of religion is bullshit." What you truly want is for Muslims to say "fine. we'll disregard this part of the religion and admit it's BS." That would satisfy your militant atheism (BTW, by militant, I don't mean the word you hear in the news all the time, I mean someone who is combative and aggressive, to the point of being extremely confrontational). But you will never change over a billion Muslims' minds. This is what I'm trying to convince you: I don't care if you compromise your beliefs, I just want you to understand that Muslims aren't going to compromise theirs. So if you truly wanted women's equality, what you would do is work with reformers who see a need to challenge the narrative that has been dominated by the traditional orthodoxy, or the radicals who are constantly given media attention. Stop allowing them a monopoly on the narrative of either Islamic history or doctrine.

I admit, many of my points are supported by the majority of Muslims, but some of them are innovative and modern scholars have only recently been trying to make a serious effort to push them. The problem is that colonialism and imperial wars have left extremely vast problems in the Islamic world that is making it extremely difficult to do anything--consider even the radical Saudi regime that is kept in power with the support of the Americans and Israelis.

If this is a topic you are truly passionate about, you need to change your attitude. Being hardlined about your beliefs to the point where you are trying to impose them on others simply won't work. You need to show respect to an extremely vast and complex history of an entire civilization. You also need to stop viewing Islam through the lens of "all religions are the same bullshit." That's not true. Religions are complex and even have differences existing within themselves. I understand if you think religion is not for you, that's fine, but to then reduce the narrative of "all religions had some dude show up who claimed some fairy tale bullshit and convinced a bunch of people to do this and that" is just foolish. I'm not suggesting that's what you are necessarily doing (some in this thread surely are), but it's dangerously close.

I know this is already very long (although you asked for it), but I need to address one more point: you mentioned earlier how it might be fine and dandy that there are all these explanations for the historical context in which these verses were given, but does the typical common Muslim man (or woman) know this? The fact is, yes, they typically do. As I mentioned earlier, only a couple hundred of the over 6000 verses are actually legal rulings. The majority of the Quran that Muslims read in their lives are absolutely not those legal rulings (which exist in very long and drawn out chapters) but shorter, sweeter chapters that just tell people to always give charity, respect one another, treat orphans and elderly well (the Quran is very big on that), act with justice, and then a bunch more verses on the afterlife, God, etc.

No one just reads a verse about warfare, picks up a gun and walks out the door. Even people who become radicals are always driven to it by other people (almost always by political motivations and religious justification, not the other way around).

But when most Muslims come across specific verses, they pretty much almost always consult scholars on the topic, who do have the knowledge of not just the historical context but also the language, because Arabic is a difficult language on its own, let alone the complexity of the Quran. This is why badbrains is telling you to consult an imam because it is typically what someone who wants to understand more would do. I admit, I have problems with many imams who subscribe to traditional orthodoxy, but the fact that you are so opposed to even visiting one shows you have no real desire for understanding or interfaith dialogue. It's all "bullshit" to you. Being this closed is extremely problematic in my opinion because it will never advance the discussion.

There's still a ton more to say, but I think I've gone on long enough, and I have work in a bit so I really need to get off, but not before I respond to adjecko or whatever the fuck his name was.

fuck

ajedigecko wrote:

fuck wrote:

Actually, the Quran doesn't ever mention stoning. But it's not like you'd know.

Bukhari (83:37) - Adultery is one of three justifications for killing a person, according to Muhammad.

Bukhari is not the Quran. Did Sheikh Google not tell you that?

badbrains

Thanks fuck for explaining it WAYYYYYYYYYY BETTER then I could've ever. Fucken genious

ajedigecko

Kill, convert or subjugate Christians and Jews.
(Qur'an 9:29)

Share one's faith with gentleness and respect.
(1 Peter 3:15)


I know i know...out of context.

badbrains

ajedigecko wrote:

Kill, convert or subjugate Christians and Jews.
(Qur'an 9:29)

Share one's faith with gentleness and respect.
(1 Peter 3:15)


I know i know...out of context.

Sorry bro, but you really have no clue about what Islam teaches. Doesn't make you an asshole or anything. You just dnt really know as I have little knowledge of other religions.

Abuskedti

people been dying around the world often.. but in a mall. now that is something we can relate to.. let's all care and find someone to hate! yippee

Pingfah

ajedigecko wrote:

Kill, convert or subjugate Christians and Jews.
(Qur'an 9:29)

Share one's faith with gentleness and respect.
(1 Peter 3:15)


I know i know...out of context.

Shall we start pulling out many of the extremely violent bible verses for you?

No, lets not bother, that sort of behaviour would just be petty, childish trolling.