If you're muslim you can leave, dead if not

PJ_Soul

Pingfah wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

.... Definitely not for me or a lot of other Atheists, because as I said before, Atheism is not simply about not believing in God. Atheism requires a fairly complex belief system in this world. It may not feel complex because it's a part of us, but it is not a simple matter in a world of religion IMO..

See this is why I don't think a book would help, it would be very different for every atheist I think! I respect how you feel, but I just don't feel like that myself.

Perhaps it is the country I live in? Religion is not in your face here, I don't get looked at funny if I say I am atheist, my sister is the only religious person I know! She's the one who gets looked at funny It's not a complicated matter for me, it just isn't something I even think about from day to day.

Each to their own though

I don't think that's it... I am Canadian. No one gets looked at funny for being an Atheist unless they start debating it with those people at the malls and train stations where the holy rollers hand out pamphlets and shit.

But yes, to each their own. Again, there are passive Atheists and non-passive ones. It's like you're the Atheist equivalent of a nonpracticing protestant, and I'm the Atheist equivalent of a practicing Roman Catholic. Ah, the beauty of non-organized religion. We are bound by no rules even if we're Roman Catholics.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

PJ_Soul wrote:

It can also be thought of in this sense: what about Buddhists? Isn't that considered a religion? They don't believe in God. Instead they just have a philosophy. A belief system that does not involve God, but rather a connection between all things. How are Atheists any different? It's safe to assume that just about every Atheist believes in Nature/Science and that Nature/Science is a power greater than themselves (albeit not conscious).

I dunno. Obviously I see a lot more going on with Atheism that you folks.

having a belief system that doesn't involve a god is different than a belief system that refutes the existence of god. why identify in the negative? to me, that sounds more like a belief system built on anger. I would consider everyone who believes there's no god to be an atheist, but that encompasses a whole lot of other belief systems, like being a Naturalists, Humanists, Quakers, etc.

Just like my non-doctor example. Am I doctor? No. But when someone asks what I do, I don't say "not a doctor", I tell them what I am, as opposed to what I'm not.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

It can also be thought of in this sense: what about Buddhists? Isn't that considered a religion? They don't believe in God. Instead they just have a philosophy. A belief system that does not involve God, but rather a connection between all things. How are Atheists any different? It's safe to assume that just about every Atheist believes in Nature/Science and that Nature/Science is a power greater than themselves (albeit not conscious).

I dunno. Obviously I see a lot more going on with Atheism that you folks.

having a belief system that doesn't involve a god is different than a belief system that refutes the existence of god. why identify in the negative? to me, that sounds more like a belief system built on anger. I would consider everyone who believes there's no god to be an atheist, but that encompasses a whole lot of other belief systems, like being a Naturalists, Humanists, Quakers, etc.

Just like my non-doctor example. Am I doctor? No. But when someone asks what I do, I don't say "not a doctor", I tell them what I am, as opposed to what I'm not.

More labels. More divisions.

Not believing in God doesn't make you anything. It means you don't subscribe to a theory that many others do- it shouldn't place you in an alternative category.

The need to classify is at the root of what I said many pages ago that ultimately... violence on the grand scale boils down to Us and Them. Our insistence to identify ourselves does not work well for harmonizing the people on the planet Earth. If everyone could maintain their beliefs without pointing out the differences in each other, I bet we would get along much better in many instances.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

More labels. More divisions.

Not believing in God doesn't make you anything. It means you don't subscribe to a theory that many others do- it shouldn't place you in an alternative category.

The need to classify is at the root of what I said many pages ago that ultimately... violence on the grand scale boils down to Us and Them. Our insistence to identify ourselves does not work well for harmonizing the people on the planet Earth. If everyone could maintain their beliefs without pointing out the differences in each other, I bet we would get along much better in many instances.

I'm not labeling or dividing anybody. My only point is that I find it odd to identify as something you aren't.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

just doing a bit of research on the much-maligned wikipedia, but I found this interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#Implicit_vs._explicit

Association with world views and social behaviors

Sociologist Phil Zuckerman analyzed previous social science research on secularity and non-belief, and concluded that societal well-being is positively correlated with irreligion. His findings relating specifically to atheism in the US include:[75][76]

Compared to religious people in the US, "atheists and secular people" are less nationalistic, prejudiced, antisemitic, racist, dogmatic, ethnocentric, closed-minded, and authoritarian.
In US states with the highest percentages of atheists, the murder rate is lower than average. In the most religious states, the murder rate is higher than average.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

More labels. More divisions.

Not believing in God doesn't make you anything. It means you don't subscribe to a theory that many others do- it shouldn't place you in an alternative category.

The need to classify is at the root of what I said many pages ago that ultimately... violence on the grand scale boils down to Us and Them. Our insistence to identify ourselves does not work well for harmonizing the people on the planet Earth. If everyone could maintain their beliefs without pointing out the differences in each other, I bet we would get along much better in many instances.

I'm not labeling or dividing anybody. My only point is that I find it odd to identify as something you aren't.

Sorry... I should have said I was agreeing with what you said before adding to your claim.

dignin

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

Really ... Well I've already explained why because I think it's bullshit, it's scam ... Like most scams how many billions does it take in yearly and there is 0 proof of a God and so far all the EDUCATED people apparently can't deliver proof either ... Just what's in some book to keep the scam going.

As for understanding why people believe, again I've stated it's a comfort thing, we are likely the one species who imagines their own death and believing in a mystical place is a far more comforting thought than worm food.

I'm atheist. But I don't shove it down people's throats disrespectfully. Just something to think about.

“You’ve gotta respect everyone’s beliefs.” No, you don’t. That’s what gets us in trouble. Look, you have to acknowledge everyone’s beliefs, and then you have to reserve the right to go: “That is fucking stupid. Are you kidding me?” I acknowledge that you believe that, that’s great, but I’m not going to respect it. I have an uncle that believes he saw Sasquatch. We do not believe him, nor do we respect him!”

Patton Oswalt

Not necessarily the way I feel....but he has a point.

Pingfah

Yes I agree with that. The important thing is to respect people's right to believe what they want, without interference, provided their beliefs do not impinge anybody else's rights. But that doesn't mean you have to respect the actual beliefs.

I have no respect for belief in god, I think it is illogical, delusional and absurd and I have no problem telling people that, but I will fight for their freedom to openly believe in such nonsense.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Pingfah wrote:

Yes I agree with that. The important thing is to respect people's right to believe what they want, without interference, provided their beliefs do not impinge anybody else's rights. But that doesn't mean you have to respect the actual beliefs.

I have no respect for belief in god, I think it is illogical, delusional and absurd and I have no problem telling people that, but I will fight for their freedom to openly believe in such nonsense.

then let me rephrase to what I actually meant: you have to respect everyone's right to believe in what they choose to believe

do I respect my brother? I used to. Just a few minutes ago he posted a quote on his facebook page, probably a passive aggressive attack on me: Belief: The opposite of belief is not unbelief; it is fear. :roll: what garbage.

he seems to think that if you don't believe in god, that equates to believing in nothing. My catholic wife once said this exact same thing to me until I tore a strip off her about how ignorant that statement was, and after that she understood.

Pingfah

Heh. What your brother said doesn't even make sense! Getting on with your life knowing you are just wormfood at the end of it seems a lot less fearful to me than conjuring up some fantasy where you die and then live happily ever after.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Pingfah wrote:

Heh. What your brother said doesn't even make sense! Getting on with your life knowing you are just wormfood at the end of it seems a lot less fearful to me than conjuring up some fantasy where you die and then live happily ever after.

I know. I guess he's never heard the phrase "god fearing..." before. fear and control is the reason we have religion in the first place.

dignin

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

Pingfah wrote:

Yes I agree with that. The important thing is to respect people's right to believe what they want, without interference, provided their beliefs do not impinge anybody else's rights. But that doesn't mean you have to respect the actual beliefs.

I have no respect for belief in god, I think it is illogical, delusional and absurd and I have no problem telling people that, but I will fight for their freedom to openly believe in such nonsense.

then let me rephrase to what I actually meant: you have to respect everyone's right to believe in what they choose to believe

do I respect my brother? I used to. Just a few minutes ago he posted a quote on his facebook page, probably a passive aggressive attack on me: Belief: The opposite of belief is not unbelief; it is fear. :roll: what garbage.

he seems to think that if you don't believe in god, that equates to believing in nothing. My catholic wife once said this exact same thing to me until I tore a strip off her about how ignorant that statement was, and after that she understood.

That sucks man. I think I read earlier that your brother was a born again. They are the absolute worst for shoving their beliefs down peoples throats. You must rise above, as I'm sure you have.

brianlux

dignin wrote:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

Pingfah wrote:

Yes I agree with that. The important thing is to respect people's right to believe what they want, without interference, provided their beliefs do not impinge anybody else's rights. But that doesn't mean you have to respect the actual beliefs.

I have no respect for belief in god, I think it is illogical, delusional and absurd and I have no problem telling people that, but I will fight for their freedom to openly believe in such nonsense.

then let me rephrase to what I actually meant: you have to respect everyone's right to believe in what they choose to believe

do I respect my brother? I used to. Just a few minutes ago he posted a quote on his facebook page, probably a passive aggressive attack on me: Belief: The opposite of belief is not unbelief; it is fear. :roll: what garbage.

he seems to think that if you don't believe in god, that equates to believing in nothing. My catholic wife once said this exact same thing to me until I tore a strip off her about how ignorant that statement was, and after that she understood.

That sucks man. I think I read earlier that your brother was a born again. They are the absolute worst for shoving their beliefs down peoples throats. You must rise above, as I'm sure you have.

I agree although there's been talk about Pearl Jam being reborn here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=218207 and in that case, I'm all for proselytizing!

PJ_Soul

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

It can also be thought of in this sense: what about Buddhists? Isn't that considered a religion? They don't believe in God. Instead they just have a philosophy. A belief system that does not involve God, but rather a connection between all things. How are Atheists any different? It's safe to assume that just about every Atheist believes in Nature/Science and that Nature/Science is a power greater than themselves (albeit not conscious).

I dunno. Obviously I see a lot more going on with Atheism that you folks.

having a belief system that doesn't involve a god is different than a belief system that refutes the existence of god. why identify in the negative? to me, that sounds more like a belief system built on anger. I would consider everyone who believes there's no god to be an atheist, but that encompasses a whole lot of other belief systems, like being a Naturalists, Humanists, Quakers, etc.

Just like my non-doctor example. Am I doctor? No. But when someone asks what I do, I don't say "not a doctor", I tell them what I am, as opposed to what I'm not.

I do not understand why you assume anger when there is a belief that refutes God. It's not about anger at the core. It's about truth. Anger is only there when you're looking at injustices and wrongs committed in the name of religion, not simply about people thinking God exists. It's the exact same kind of anger that you have about all kinds of things happening in the world. Truth is the cornerstone of Atheist beliefs, not anger. Religious people insist that God does exist, which goes against everything I believe to be truth in the world, but I don't see you saying that their belief system is rooted in anger because it defies the truth that Atheists believe in.

I'm not sure what you're arguing against here, frankly.... I think I have made a pretty good argument to explain why I believe Atheism is a legitimate religion and why I consider myself to be a part of that belief system and you are what? Trying to convince me otherwise? Tell me that I actually just believe in nothing? Weren't you the one who said we all have to respect other's rights to believe what they choose to believe? I don't think you are doing that right now. What would you have said if someone had started trying to tell another member here who is Muslim that his belief system is completely invalid and not worth consideration? I am also confused because of what you said made you mad - your brother and wife saying you believe in nothing... but now you kind of seem to be saying the same thing to me.

PS - Quakers do believe in God and Jesus Christ as his son.

PJ_Soul

Pingfah wrote:

Heh. What your brother said doesn't even make sense! Getting on with your life knowing you are just wormfood at the end of it seems a lot less fearful to me than conjuring up some fantasy where you die and then live happily ever after.

Don't forget about the going to hell and burning in horrible pain or living in miserable darkness for eternity part! Yikes!

PJ_Soul

PJ_Soul wrote:

badbrains wrote:

I'm sorry u feel that way pj soul, but you're wrong. Your view is that of an extremist view of Islam. Again, NO ONE BUT god judges who goes to heaven. That's it, plain and simple. Go to any true Muslim and he/she will have no problem stating what I said. My uncle practices the religion and he has NO PROBLEM with me having a "catholic" girl friend or even have a problem with me marrying her. I'm telling you, you're wrong. But it's ok, doesn't mean I wouldn't want to toke with ya!

There are certainly many quote from the Quran saying that women and men are equal as far as how they practice their faith goes, and it does say that killing infant daughters is a sin, and that men should be chaste like women... So there are some things about certain kinds of equality in that book. However, it also says things like:

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

And

"If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice."

And

"Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy."

And

"O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other; and the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned; and be not averse to writing it (whether it is) small or large, with the time of its falling due; this is more equitable in the sight of Allah and assures greater accuracy in testimony, and the nearest (way) that you may not entertain doubts (afterwards), except when it is ready merchandise which you give and take among yourselves from hand to hand, then there is no blame on you in not writing it down; and have witnesses when you barter with one another, and let no harm be done to the scribe or to the witness; and if you do (it) then surely it will be a transgression in you, and be careful of (your duty) to Allah, Allah teaches you, and Allah knows all things."

And

"Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise."

Yes, it is easy to find direct quotes from the Quran that show how Islam does not consider women equal to men. As a woman, I find it offensive when people try to claim that women are equal to men in Islam because it denies that there is a big problem in this regard both in the religion and in the culture.

Interesting that there has been no response to this post from badbrains or fuck yet... I was curious to see how they might defend their claims that women are equal according to Islam despite these verses (and there are more) from the Quran.

fuck

PJ_Soul wrote:

Interesting that there has been no response to this post from badbrains or fuck yet... I was curious to see how they might defend their claims that women are equal according to Islam despite these verses (and there are more) from the Quran.

I've been at work and have crazy hour shifts. You'll get a long response so you can choose not to read the whole thing in due time.

badbrains

I was waiting for fuck to answer cuz he knows more about my religion then I do. Plus it's more complex then cutting and pasting something. If Islam is so bad, then why is it the fastest growing religion in the world. And still after 911 and all the wars it's still growing. Look, I get it pj soul, you have your issues with Islam as does many including myself, but like said before, go talk to an imam and let him dissect the words for you. I'm no where near scholar fuck is and dnt really have the patience anymore. I'm done trying to convince you that Islam isnt what u see it as. Maybe one day but for now, I'm burnt.

PJ_Soul

badbrains wrote:

I was waiting for fuck to answer cuz he knows more about my religion then I do. Plus it's more complex then cutting and pasting something. If Islam is so bad, then why is it the fastest growing religion in the world. And still after 911 and all the wars it's still growing. Look, I get it pj soul, you have your issues with Islam as does many including myself, but like said before, go talk to an imam and let him dissect the words for you. I'm no where near scholar fuck is and dnt really have the patience anymore. I'm done trying to convince you that Islam isnt what u see it as. Maybe one day but for now, I'm burnt.

I didn't say Islam is "so bad". It's no worse than all the other religions (mostly). Not that that's good. But it's not like I am saying that it's the worst religion or anything.... the worst terrorists are terrorizing in its name lately, unfortunately, and its substantial number of extremists and fundamentalists are currently posing the greatest threat, but those are two separate issues. I simply posted some quotes from the Quaran that clearly and straightforwardly state that women are not equal to men according to Islam. Anyone can try to qualify and justify to try and suggest otherwise, bit it's not going to change what it says right there in the Quaran in black and white. I am fully aware that not all Muslims follow the Quaran word for word just like not all Christians follow every stupid rule in the Bible. I just am pointing out what the actual religion does state because one of you said that Islam holds women as equals. No, it does not (and neither does, say, Catholicism or Judaism, and if a Catholic or a Jew were trying to make such a stupid biased argument trying to say that isn't true, I'd disagree with them as well).

Also, if I wanted to really dig deeper into a religion (and I have dug pretty deep already BTW... I am sure most assume Atheists are the least knowledgeable about it, but that is not true), I would not go to an Imam or a priest or an orthodox rabbi. Talk about getting biased and defensive answers. They are the ones who are in charge of religious brainwashing for crying out loud. Of course those true to the faith are going to try and make it sound as good and benign as possible. I don't want tainted info coming from someone who is trying to sell me a good line or defend something (like you guys are trying g to do). I would go to non-practicing religious scholars and historians of theology to get the real picture, because I need the story without God being presumed to exist, and without a vested interest in making the religion palatable to the general public. Not that I would be uninterested in talking to religious leaders and know what they also have to say. Just not to get the straight up facts of the matter. Given my very established and justified feelings about organized religion, I don't trust their leaders as far as I can throw them.

badbrains

PJ_Soul wrote:

badbrains wrote:

I was waiting for fuck to answer cuz he knows more about my religion then I do. Plus it's more complex then cutting and pasting something. If Islam is so bad, then why is it the fastest growing religion in the world. And still after 911 and all the wars it's still growing. Look, I get it pj soul, you have your issues with Islam as does many including myself, but like said before, go talk to an imam and let him dissect the words for you. I'm no where near scholar fuck is and dnt really have the patience anymore. I'm done trying to convince you that Islam isnt what u see it as. Maybe one day but for now, I'm burnt.

I didn't say Islam is "so bad". It's no worse than all the other religions (mostly). Not that that's good. But it's not like I am saying that it's the worst religion or anything.... the worst terrorists are terrorizing in its name lately, unfortunately, and its substantial number of extremists and fundamentalists are currently posing the greatest threat, but those are two separate issues. I simply posted some quotes from the Quaran that clearly and straightforwardly state that women are not equal to men according to Islam. Anyone can try to qualify and justify to try and suggest otherwise, bit it's not going to change what it says right there in the Quaran in black and white. I am fully aware that not all Muslims follow the Quaran word for word just like not all Christians follow every stupid rule in the Bible. I just am pointing out what the actual religion does state because one of you said that Islam holds women as equals. No, it does not (and neither does, say, Catholicism or Judaism, and if a Catholic or a Jew were trying to make such a stupid biased argument trying to say that isn't true, I'd disagree with them as well).

Also, if I wanted to really dig deeper into a religion (and I have dug pretty deep already BTW... I am sure most assume Atheists are the least knowledgeable about it, but that is not true), I would not go to an Imam or a priest or an orthodox rabbi. Talk about getting biased and defensive answers. They are the ones who are in charge of religious brainwashing for crying out loud. Of course those true to the faith are going to try and make it sound as good and benign as possible. I don't want tainted info coming from someone who is trying to sell me a good line or defend something (like you guys are trying g to do). I would go to non-practicing religious scholars and historians of theology to get the real picture, because I need the story without God being presumed to exist, and without a vested interest in making the religion palatable to the general public. Not that I would be uninterested in talking to religious leaders and know what they also have to say. Just not to get the straight up facts of the matter. Given my very established and justified feelings about organized religion, I don't trust their leaders as far as I can throw them.

How about going to fuck? (I know that sounds dirty) but I mean fuck who's responding in this thread. I dnt believe he's an imam, mite be the unbiased person who has been trying to inform everybody.

Here's another story in Islam: something like this- a man went to the prophet and asked him,"who should I love more, my mother or father?" The prophet said your mother first and foremost. Then the person said,"so I'm supposed to love my mother first and my father second?" The prophet said,"no, then you love your mother again." Basically he was stating that you love your mother 3 times more then your father for she carried and went thru all the pain of labor for you. So in a way, women are not "supposed" to be equal but held at a higher level. I think the problem is that a lot of people associate culture with religion. Not all Muslims have the same culture. I'm Muslim, my people come from the Caucasus Mts of Russia, we share the religion but not the culture of other Muslims, if that makes any sense.