Edward Snowden & The N.S.A Revelations

ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
edited December 2013 in A Moving Train
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” ― George Orwell


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... ow-ecuador

Edward Snowden seeks asylum in Ecuador amid diplomatic storm

Whistleblower escapes from Hong Kong to Moscow on a commercial flight despite a formal US extradition request


Tania Branigan in Hong Kong, Miriam Elder in Moscow and Nick Hopkins
The Guardian, Sunday 23 June 2013



The intelligence whistleblower Edward Snowden will on Monday attempt to complete an audacious escape to the relative safety of South America after his departure from Hong Kong aggravated already fraught diplomatic relations between the United States and China.

In a move that appeared to bewilder the White House, Snowden was allowed to flee Hong Kong on Sunday morning and head to Moscow on a commercial flight despite a formal request from the US to have the 30-year-old detained and extradited to face espionage charges for a series of leaks about the National Security Agency (NSA) and Britain's spy centre, GCHQ.

In Moscow, Snowden disappeared again, leaving the aircraft without being spotted but pursued by the Ecuadorian ambassador, Patricio Chávez, amid speculation that he will fly to Quito on Monday, possibly via Cuba.

Snowden has asked for political asylum in Ecuador, the country that has also given shelter to the WikiLeaks founder, Julian Assange, at its embassy in London.

In a statement on Sunday night, WikiLeaks, which has been providing legal and logistical help to Snowden in recent days, said: "He is bound for the Republic of Ecuador via a safe route for the purposes of asylum, and is being escorted by diplomats and legal advisers from WikiLeaks."

"Mr Snowden requested that WikiLeaks use its legal expertise and experience to secure his safety. Once Mr Snowden arrives in Ecuador his request will be formally processed." Snowden's escape from Hong Kong infuriated US politicians, while China focused on condemning Washington over his latest disclosures, which suggested the NSA had hacked into Chinese mobile phone companies to access millions of private text messages.

Moscow was also drawn into the controversy after it emerged that Snowden's passport had been revoked before he left Hong Kong and he did not have a visa for Russia.

But Russia appeared indifferent to the uproar, with one official saying Snowden was safe from the authorities as long as he remained in the transit lounge at the city's Sheremetyevo airport.

Dmitry Peskov, spokesman for the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, said: "I know nothing."

In Washington, congressmen fulminated at the array of powers suddenly ranged against the US.
Mike Rogers, chairman of the House permanent select committee on intelligence, railed at the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, over his attitude to Snowden, suggesting an ulterior motive.

"I'm sure they would love to have a little bit of coffee and some conversation with Mr Snowden," Rogers said.

Democratic senator Chuck Schumer added: "The bottom line is very simple: allies are supposed to treat each other in decent ways, and Putin always seems almost eager to put a finger in the eye of the United States, whether it is Syria, Iran and now of course with Snowden. That's not how allies should treat each other and I think it will have serious consequences for the United States-Russia relationship."

Washington will also challenge Hong Kong over its decision to let Snowden flee. In a statement, the Hong Kong Special Autonomous Region (HKSAR) said it could not have stopped Snowden because America's request to detain him on a provisional warrant – filed in papers last week – did not fully comply with legal requirements.

"As the HKSAR government has yet to have sufficient information to process the request for provisional warrant of arrest, there is no legal basis to restrict Mr Snowden from leaving Hong Kong," the statement said.

Yet the admission that Snowden had been allowed to leave was made five hours after he had boarded an Aeroflot flight to Moscow, and the discovery of the oversight came two days after the papers had been formally sent.

Last night, a US justice department official said it was disappointed that Hong Kong authorities did not arrest Snowden, despite repeated senior level contacts about the matter. "The US is disappointed and disagrees with the determination by Hong Kong authorities not to honour the request for the arrest of the fugitive."

...Speaking to the Sydney Morning Herald from the Ecuadorian embassy in London, Assange said: "Owing to WikiLeaks' own circumstances, we have developed significant expertise in international asylum and extradition law, associated diplomacy and the practicalities in these matters. I have great personal sympathy for Ed Snowden's position. WikiLeaks absolutely supports his decision to blow the whistle on the mass surveillance of the world's population by the US government."

On Saturday, the South China Morning Post disclosed details of new documents from Snowden that suggested the NSA had hacked into Chinese phone companies.

...China's official Xinhua news agency said the revelations had "put Washington in a really awkward situation".

"They demonstrate that the United States, which has long been trying to play innocent as a victim of cyber attacks, has turned out to be the biggest villain in our age," it said.
Post edited by Unknown User on
«13456720

Comments

  • Guitar92playerGuitar92player Posts: 664
    edited July 2013
    (Changed post due to change in opinion)
    Post edited by Guitar92player on
    ~Carter~

    You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
    or you can come to terms and realize
    you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
    makes much more sense to live in the present tense
    - Present Tense
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited July 2013
    That guy is bullshit. If he believes he has done nothing wrong, he should come back here, regardless of what's going on.

    The fact he is hiding is making people think he has done something wrong.

    Personally, I bet he gave intelligence to other countries. If not, he has no reason to run.

    Because your gutless leaders throw innocent men into Gitmo, Bagram and Camp Bondsteel for decades, even if they've done nothing. That's why.

    You noticed what's been happening with Bradley Manning & Julian Assange? Have they been treated fairly?

    The deck is stacked against him. He knows he would lose. Nothing wrong with running away to fight another day.

    As for him being 'bullshit', care to elaborate on that? How does someone revealing to the World that the U.S government is illegally spying on them, and lying to them, make him 'bullshit'?
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ge-charges


    On the Espionage Act charges against Edward Snowden

    Who is actually bringing 'injury to America': those who are secretly building a massive surveillance system or those who inform citizens that it's being done?


    Glenn Greenwald
    guardian.co.uk, Saturday 22 June 2013



    '...Few people - likely including Snowden himself - would contest that his actions constitute some sort of breach of the law. He made his choice based on basic theories of civil disobedience: that those who control the law have become corrupt, that the law in this case (by concealing the actions of government officials in building this massive spying apparatus in secret) is a tool of injustice, and that he felt compelled to act in violation of it in order to expose these official bad acts and enable debate and reform.

    But that's a far cry from charging Snowden, who just turned 30 yesterday, with multiple felonies under the Espionage Act that will send him to prison for decades if not life upon conviction. In what conceivable sense are Snowden's actions "espionage"? He could have - but chose not - sold the information he had to a foreign intelligence service for vast sums of money, or covertly passed it to one of America's enemies, or worked at the direction of a foreign government. That is espionage. He did none of those things.

    What he did instead was give up his life of career stability and economic prosperity, living with his long-time girlfriend in Hawaii, in order to inform his fellow citizens (both in America and around the world) of what the US government and its allies are doing to them and their privacy. He did that by very carefully selecting which documents he thought should be disclosed and concealed, then gave them to a newspaper with a team of editors and journalists and repeatedly insisted that journalistic judgments be exercised about which of those documents should be published in the public interest and which should be withheld.


    That's what every single whistleblower and source for investigative journalism, in every case, does - by definition. In what conceivable sense does that merit felony charges under the Espionage Act?

    The essence of that extremely broad, century-old law is that one is guilty if one discloses classified information "with intent or reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation". Please read this rather good summary in this morning's New York Times of the worldwide debate Snowden has enabled - how these disclosures have "set off a national debate over the proper limits of government surveillance" and "opened an unprecedented window on the details of surveillance by the NSA, including its compilation of logs of virtually all telephone calls in the United States and its collection of e-mails of foreigners from the major American Internet companies, including Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, Apple and Skype" - and ask yourself: has Snowden actually does anything to bring "injury to the United States", or has he performed an immense public service?

    The irony is obvious: the same people who are building a ubiquitous surveillance system to spy on everyone in the world, including their own citizens, are now accusing the person who exposed it of "espionage". It seems clear that the people who are actually bringing "injury to the United States" are those who are waging war on basic tenets of transparency and secretly constructing a mass and often illegal and unconstitutional surveillance apparatus aimed at American citizens - and those who are lying to the American people and its Congress about what they're doing - rather than those who are devoted to informing the American people that this is being done.

    The Obama administration leaks classified information continuously. They do it to glorify the President, or manipulate public opinion, or even to help produce a pre-election propaganda film about the Osama bin Laden raid. The Obama administration does not hate unauthorized leaks of classified information. They are more responsible for such leaks than anyone.

    What they hate are leaks that embarrass them or expose their wrongdoing. Those are the only kinds of leaks that are prosecuted. It's a completely one-sided and manipulative abuse of secrecy laws. It's all designed to ensure that the only information we as citizens can learn is what they want us to learn because it makes them look good. The only leaks they're interested in severely punishing are those that undermine them politically. The "enemy" they're seeking to keep ignorant with selective and excessive leak prosecutions are not The Terrorists or The Chinese Communists. It's the American people.


    The Terrorists already knew, and have long known, that the US government is doing everything possible to surveil their telephonic and internet communications. The Chinese have long known, and have repeatedly said, that the US is hacking into both their governmental and civilian systems (just as the Chinese are doing to the US). The Russians have long known that the US and UK try to intercept the conversations of their leaders just as the Russians do to the US and the UK.

    They haven't learned anything from these disclosures that they didn't already well know. The people who have learned things they didn't already know are American citizens who have no connection to terrorism or foreign intelligence, as well as hundreds of millions of citizens around the world about whom the same is true. What they have learned is that the vast bulk of this surveillance apparatus is directed not at the Chinese or Russian governments or the Terrorists, but at them.

    And that is precisely why the US government is so furious and will bring its full weight to bear against these disclosures. What has been "harmed" is not the national security of the US but the ability of its political leaders to work against their own citizens and citizens around the world in the dark, with zero transparency or real accountability. If anything is a crime, it's that secret, unaccountable and deceitful behavior: not the shining of light on it.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    You really have to marvel at the total hypocrisy of these cocksuckers:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... ians-react

    US politicians issue warning to Russia as Edward Snowden arrives in Moscow

    Senator warns Vladimir Putin of 'serious consequences' if country neglects to send NSA whistleblower back to US

    Dominic Rushe in New York
    guardian.co.uk, Sunday 23 June 2013



    '...Mike Rogers, chairman of the House permanent select committee on intelligence, told NBC's Meet The Press that he did not have information that Putin had prior knowledge of Snowden's flight plans but "it wouldn't surprise me".

    "Putin has been planting a thorn in the world's side in Syria. We think they may not be playing honest with respect to the nuclear treaty. They are very aggressive around the world," he said.'



    This from an American Politician, and 'friend' of Israel. :lol:
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    There are real indications of tyranny emerging:

    1) Rules don’t apply to or are suspended for Government.
    2) Government will make up the rules to suit our purposes.
    3) If anyone attempts to hold us to account we will crush them.


    Meanwhile, it may just transpire that U.S Politicians come to realise that the World does not revolve around them.
  • London BridgeLondon Bridge USAPosts: 4,732
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Looks like the U.S may have to come to terms with the fact that the rest of the World is not willing to put up with it's bullshit any longer.

    Until they need help from the U.S. :lol:

    Fuck Hong Kong
    Fuck China
    Fuck the country who grants asylum to this scumbag.

    He can run, but he can't hide forever.
    It's time for this administration to get control of the situation and get the traitor back on American soil
  • Guitar92playerGuitar92player Posts: 664
    edited June 2013
    Byrnzie wrote:
    That guy is bullshit. If he believes he has done nothing wrong, he should come back here, regardless of what's going on.

    The fact he is hiding is making people think he has done something wrong.

    Personally, I bet he gave intelligence to other countries. If not, he has no reason to run.

    Because your gutless leaders throws innocent men into Gitmo, Bagram and Camp Bondsteel for decades, even if they've done nothing. That's why.

    You noticed what's been happening with Bradley Manning & Julian Assange? Have they been treated fairly?

    The deck is stacked against him. He knows he would lose. Nothing wrong with running away to fight another day.

    As for him being 'bullshit', care to elaborate on that? How does someone revealing to the World that the U.S government is illegally spying on them, and lying to them, make him 'bullshit'?

    He is bullshit because if he truly believes he did nothing wrong, why run? Why be afraid to die knowing you did the right thing? He is a coward.

    But also, although I kinda hate how they went about this, I get it. I get why Bush did it and I get why Obama continued it. It's an anti-terrorism method. Since this guy revealed who the government got info from and how they get the info, terrorists now know not to use those things. Before they knew to be cautious, but they they 100% know what things not to use anymore.

    And I can see you are from China, so you wouldn't really know this this, but many Americans already knew such things were going on, its the fact that they kept so much info (and what info) was what shocked them. Ever since the Patriot Act we knew wire tapping was going on. If other American's didn't know that then they should read up and pay attention more.
    Post edited by Guitar92player on
    ~Carter~

    You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
    or you can come to terms and realize
    you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
    makes much more sense to live in the present tense
    - Present Tense
  • Byrnzie wrote:
    Looks like the U.S may have to come to terms with the fact that the rest of the World is not willing to put up with it's bullshit any longer.

    Until they need help from the U.S. :lol:

    LOL Truth!! :lol::lol::lol:
    ~Carter~

    You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
    or you can come to terms and realize
    you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
    makes much more sense to live in the present tense
    - Present Tense
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Looks like the U.S may have to come to terms with the fact that the rest of the World is not willing to put up with it's bullshit any longer.

    Until they need help from the U.S. :lol:

    Fuck Hong Kong
    Fuck China
    Fuck the country who grants asylum to this scumbag.

    He can run, but he can't hide forever.
    It's time for this administration to get control of the situation and get the traitor back on American soil

    How is he a traitor?

    See if you can answer that question whilst frothing at the mouth over the fact that your government have been caught lying to, and spying on, the American people, in breach of the Constitution.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Looks like the U.S may have to come to terms with the fact that the rest of the World is not willing to put up with it's bullshit any longer.

    Until they need help from the U.S. :lol:

    LOL Truth!! :lol::lol::lol:

    Like when you helped protect the World from the imminent attack from Iraq, with it's weapons of mass destruction?
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Since this guy revealed who the government got info from and how they get the info, terrorists now know not to use those things. Before they knew to be cautious, but they they 100% know what things not to use anymore.

    Except that none of what you've said is true.


    Read on: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ge-charges


    'The Terrorists already knew, and have long known, that the US government is doing everything possible to surveil their telephonic and internet communications. The Chinese have long known, and have repeatedly said, that the US is hacking into both their governmental and civilian systems (just as the Chinese are doing to the US). The Russians have long known that the US and UK try to intercept the conversations of their leaders just as the Russians do to the US and the UK.

    They haven't learned anything from these disclosures that they didn't already well know. The people who have learned things they didn't already know are American citizens who have no connection to terrorism or foreign intelligence, as well as hundreds of millions of citizens around the world about whom the same is true. What they have learned is that the vast bulk of this surveillance apparatus is directed not at the Chinese or Russian governments or the Terrorists, but at them.'

    And I can see you are from China, so you wouldn't really know this this, but many Americans already knew such things were going on, its the fact that they kept so much info (and what info) was what shocked them. Ever since the Patriot Act we knew wire tapping was going on. If other American's didn't know that then they should read up and pay attention more.

    I'm not from China, i just live here. Not that that's relevant. And Americans may have known that their government was spying on them and lying to them, and acting in breach of the Constitution - good for you! - but people in other countries weren't aware of the scale and extent of this crime, and of the fact that the U.S has been extensively and systematically spying on their citizens too.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    I do find it interesting that some people are so quick to jump to the defense of their governments. As if these governments actually give a shit about them? I find it kind of depressing. Even when people learn that their elected officials have lied to them, and cheated them, and spied on them, they jump to their defense.

    This is clearly the reason why Hitler, Stalin, and Mao found it so easy to get the populations of their countries to fall into step like obedient puppets.
  • Byrnzie wrote:
    Like when you helped protect the World from the imminent attack from Iraq, with it's weapons of mass destruction?

    First off, I hated Bush for that very reason. I hated the whole Iraq war shit. We totally took a sharp turn from the war on terrorism (which is another stupid, impossible-to-win war). We should have been in Afghanistan getting Osama been Hiden, but noooo, we just had to go to Iraq.


    The only "good" thing we did over there was capture a dictator. But then again, many countries have dictators, so big woop.

    So basically I am saying I "Agree" with you in that that war we didn't help much.

    But, America does provide aid to many countries (after disasters and such and to poor countries).
    ~Carter~

    You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
    or you can come to terms and realize
    you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
    makes much more sense to live in the present tense
    - Present Tense
  • Byrnzie wrote:
    I do find it interesting that some people are so quick to jump to the defense of their governments. As if these governments actually give a shit about them? I find it kind of depressing. Even when people learn that their elected officials have lied to them, and cheated them, and spied on them, they jump to their defense.

    This is clearly the reason why Hitler, Stalin, and Mao found it so easy to get the populations of their countries to fall into step like obedient puppets.


    Well, if you are referring to me and whoever else posted here, we are not defending our government. I don't 100% trust them. However, I do know they are fighting off terrorists and this was one way to do so.

    I am pissed about the whole thing, but I get it. If this surveillance thing doesnt happen, fighting terrorism is hard; there is no other way to do it unless this kind of crap happens.

    And when election time comes around, I definitely know I am not voting any one of these pricks back in.
    ~Carter~

    You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
    or you can come to terms and realize
    you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
    makes much more sense to live in the present tense
    - Present Tense
  • Byrnzie wrote:
    Since this guy revealed who the government got info from and how they get the info, terrorists now know not to use those things. Before they knew to be cautious, but they they 100% know what things not to use anymore.

    Except that none of what you've said is true.


    Read on: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ge-charges


    'The Terrorists already knew, and have long known, that the US government is doing everything possible to surveil their telephonic and internet communications. The Chinese have long known, and have repeatedly said, that the US is hacking into both their governmental and civilian systems (just as the Chinese are doing to the US). The Russians have long known that the US and UK try to intercept the conversations of their leaders just as the Russians do to the US and the UK.

    They haven't learned anything from these disclosures that they didn't already well know. The people who have learned things they didn't already know are American citizens who have no connection to terrorism or foreign intelligence, as well as hundreds of millions of citizens around the world about whom the same is true. What they have learned is that the vast bulk of this surveillance apparatus is directed not at the Chinese or Russian governments or the Terrorists, but at them.'

    As I stated (and fixed) earlier, I bet they knew to be aware of technological use. But now they 100% know how the US listens and what companies they are involved with. So that gives the terrorists lots of info.

    And of course surveillance is on all of us, because anyone can be a terrorist and anyone is capable of committing a major crime.

    And if people think that they are doing "just to watch us like puppets" then I think people have their tin foil hats on too tight. :lol:
    ~Carter~

    You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
    or you can come to terms and realize
    you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
    makes much more sense to live in the present tense
    - Present Tense
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037

    But, America does provide aid to many countries (after disasters and such and to poor countries).

    As do many other countries.
  • Byrnzie wrote:

    But, America does provide aid to many countries (after disasters and such and to poor countries).

    As do many other countries.

    And I know, but when the other person mentioned us helping others and you brought up Iraq, this was a good example of when other countries need us for help.
    ~Carter~

    You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
    or you can come to terms and realize
    you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
    makes much more sense to live in the present tense
    - Present Tense
  • London BridgeLondon Bridge USAPosts: 4,732
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Looks like the U.S may have to come to terms with the fact that the rest of the World is not willing to put up with it's bullshit any longer.

    Until they need help from the U.S. :lol:

    Fuck Hong Kong
    Fuck China
    Fuck the country who grants asylum to this scumbag.

    He can run, but he can't hide forever.
    It's time for this administration to get control of the situation and get the traitor back on American soil

    How is he a traitor?

    See if you can answer that question whilst frothing at the mouth over the fact that your government have been caught lying to, and spying on, the American people, in breach of the Constitution.

    Can you give me the name of a country whose government doesn't lie to it's people?

    Fleeing the U.S. and handing over classified information to another country makes him a traitor in my book. When he became an employee at NSA, he signed documents about the do's and don'ts, concerning classified info. This continues for a number of years post-employment.

    I have nothing to hide, so spy away. Do you think NSA is listening in on which shows you got PJ tickets for, or the $100 bag of weed you're selling?
    Constitutional or not, I believe it's necessary in keeping Americans as safe as possible.

    I didn't vote to put Bush in office, so the weapons of mass destruction doesn't sit well with me either.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037


    Well, if you are referring to me and whoever else posted here, we are not defending our government. I don't 100% trust them. However, I do know they are fighting off terrorists and this was one way to do so.

    I am pissed about the whole thing, but I get it. If this surveillance thing doesn't happen, fighting terrorism is hard; there is no other way to do it unless this kind of crap happens.

    And when election time comes around, I definitely know I am not voting any one of these pricks back in.

    Terrorism didn't begin on 9/11. It's been around for decades, if not centuries. There are other ways to stop terrorism other than turning the U.S into a mass surveillance State. Terrorism from the I.R.A against the British Mainland didn't stop because of any mass surveillance of it's citizens and erosion of civil liberties, and it also didn't require the British Army and R.A.F to carpet bomb Northern Ireland and invade and Occupy the Irish Republic - à la Afghanistan.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... -australia
    '...fatalities from terrorism remain vanishingly rare, at least in wealthy nations. You have four times the chance of being struck by lightning as you do from being killed by a terror attack. You are nine times more likely to choke to death on your own vomit; you are eight times more likely to die at the hands of a police officer than a terrorist. You are also something like a thousand times more likely to lose your life in a car crash than from a terror plot. Traffic accidents constitute a genuine threat; we all know someone who has died on the roads. Yet no-one would consider giving traffic officers anything like the powers accorded to security agencies, even though a far more intrusive policing of drunk driving would, without question, save hundreds of lives.

    ...Amazingly, between 1968 and 1973, terrorist incidents involving the seizure of commercial jets took place at a rate of nearly one a week, a sequence of skyjackings now almost totally forgotten. The attacks were taken seriously, of course – but no-one suggested they posed an existential threat, nor claimed the world had somehow changed forever.'
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    I have nothing to hide, so spy away.

    Good attitude. I wonder whether ethnic minorities, or legitimate protest movements feel the same way?

    I'm sure that the majority of Germans in the 1930's felt quite comfortable too. Unfortunately, not all were so lucky. The point being: where do you draw the line? Just how far are you prepared to let your government go in the name of 'security' before it's too late, and they begin using their newly-won powers of control for nefarious ends?
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    "Everyone's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's really an easy way: Stop participating in it." - Noam Chomsky
  • Byrnzie wrote:


    Well, if you are referring to me and whoever else posted here, we are not defending our government. I don't 100% trust them. However, I do know they are fighting off terrorists and this was one way to do so.

    I am pissed about the whole thing, but I get it. If this surveillance thing doesn't happen, fighting terrorism is hard; there is no other way to do it unless this kind of crap happens.

    And when election time comes around, I definitely know I am not voting any one of these pricks back in.

    Terrorism didn't begin on 9/11.

    Tell me something I don't know. :lol:

    I'm a History major in college, so I know history.

    Yes, it's been around a looong time, BUT since technology is getting better and better, we can better prepare for a terrorist attack.

    All I am saying is that if we didn't use technology to fight terrorism, then those statistics don't mean shit because terrorists will just plan and plan and plan faster and be able to conduct some serious attacks.
    ~Carter~

    You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
    or you can come to terms and realize
    you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
    makes much more sense to live in the present tense
    - Present Tense
  • Byrnzie wrote:
    I have nothing to hide, so spy away.

    Good attitude. I wonder whether ethnic minorities, or legitimate protest movements feel the same way?

    I'm sure that the majority of Germans in the 1930's felt quite comfortable too. Unfortunately, not all were so lucky. The point being: where do you draw the line? Just how far are you prepared to let your government go in the name of 'security' before it's too late, and they begin using their newly-won powers of control for nefarious ends?

    Tell me this, if the American government is as powerful as both you and I know, why haven't they conducted their super-duper plans of controlling yet? What are they waiting for?

    If they are sooooooo powerful and have this massive secret agenda, they can just do it. Why wait?

    For one, the government can't do shit. Why? Because unless they can convince the whole military to control the people, then they can't do shit. I have many, many friends in the military and NONE would capture and help control citizens. People in the military have families, they would die than help control another person's family.

    Sorry if all of what I said is not what you meant, but to me that's the outcome you made it seem to be.

    (bye bye for now, watching movie on Netflix. Peace)
    ~Carter~

    You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
    or you can come to terms and realize
    you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
    makes much more sense to live in the present tense
    - Present Tense
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited July 2013
    Tell me this, if the American government is as powerful as both you and I know, why haven't they conducted their super-duper plans of controlling yet? What are they waiting for?

    If they are sooooooo powerful and have this massive secret agenda, they can just do it. Why wait?

    For one, the government can't do shit. Why? Because unless they can convince the whole military to control the people, then they can't do shit. I have many, many friends in the military and NONE would capture and help control citizens. People in the military have families, they would die than help control another person's family.

    The military will only become necessary when the media fail.

    Make what you will of that one ;)


    Enjoy your movie. I think I'm gonna log off and stick a movie on too.
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • Byrnzie wrote:
    Tell me this, if the American government is as powerful as both you and I know, why haven't they conducted their super-duper plans of controlling yet? What are they waiting for?

    If they are sooooooo powerful and have this massive secret agenda, they can just do it. Why wait?

    For one, the government can't do shit. Why? Because unless they can convince the whole military to control the people, then they can't do shit. I have many, many friends in the military and NONE would capture and help control citizens. People in the military have families, they would die than help control another person's family.

    The media will only become necessary when the media fail.

    Make what you will of that one ;)


    Enjoy your movie. I think I'm gonna log off and stick a movie on too.

    I find it funny I happened to watch "The Dictator", kinda fits what we talked about. Didn't really realize it til a little bit ago. lol. I hope your movie is enjoyable as well.

    Anyway, I just wonder what Snowden's plan is. I truly believe if he thinks he is innocent why keep hiding? Wouldn't you think since he keeps running he actually gave up important info to other countries?

    This whole situation is just odd.
    ~Carter~

    You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
    or you can come to terms and realize
    you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
    makes much more sense to live in the present tense
    - Present Tense
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Anyway, I just wonder what Snowden's plan is. I truly believe if he thinks he is innocent why keep hiding? Wouldn't you think since he keeps running he actually gave up important info to other countries?

    This whole situation is just odd.

    NSA director, Keith Alexander is absolutely right:

    "What Snowden has revealed has caused irreversible and significant damage to our country and to our allies."

    It's just that what Alexander means by "country" is the ruling kleptocracy in the US and its allies. These people don't think too highly of whistleblowers, which is why Snowden wouldn't stand a snowballs chance in hell.

    It seems clear that the ruling elites in the U.S wish to function in complete secrecy and with zero transparency, and will come down hard on anyone who threatens to lift the veil on their activities.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ge-charges
    'Prior to Barack Obama's inauguration, there were a grand total of three prosecutions of leakers under the Espionage Act (including the prosecution of Dan Ellsberg by the Nixon DOJ). That's because the statute is so broad that even the US government has largely refrained from using it. But during the Obama presidency, there are now seven such prosecutions: more than double the number under all prior US presidents combined. How can anyone justify that?

    For a politician who tried to convince Americans to elect him based on repeated pledges of unprecedented transparency and specific vows to protect "noble" and "patriotic" whistleblowers, is this unparalleled assault on those who enable investigative journalism remotely defensible?'
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    It's time for this administration to get control of the situation and get the traitor back on American soil

    Traitor?

    http://www.policymic.com/articles/47355 ... aked-prism
    Greenwald: "If your motive had been to harm the United States and help its enemies, or if your motive had been personal material gain, were there things you could have done with these documents to advance those goals that you didn't end up doing?"

    Snowden: "Oh absolutely. Anyone in the positions of access with the technical capabilities that I had could suck out secrets, pass them on the open market to Russia; they always have an open door as we do. I had access to the full rosters of everyone working at the NSA, the entire intelligence community, and undercover assets all over the world. The locations of every station, we have what their missions are and so forth."

    "If I had just wanted to harm the US? You could shut down the surveillance system in an afternoon. But that's not my intention. I think for anyone making that argument they need to think, if they were in my position and you live a privileged life, you're living in Hawaii, in paradise, and making a ton of money, 'What would it take you to leave everything behind?'"

    "The greatest fear that I have regarding the outcome for America of these disclosures is that nothing will change. People will see in the media all of these disclosures. They'll know the lengths that the government is going to grant themselves powers unilaterally to create greater control over American society and global society. But they won't be willing to take the risks necessary to stand up and fight to change things to force their representatives to actually take a stand in their interests."

    "And the months ahead, the years ahead it's only going to get worse until eventually there will be a time where policies will change because the only thing that restricts the activities of the surveillance state are policy. Even our agreements with other sovereign governments, we consider that to be a stipulation of policy rather then a stipulation of law. And because of that a new leader will be elected, they'll find the switch, say that 'Because of the crisis, because of the dangers we face in the world, some new and unpredicted threat, we need more authority, we need more power.' And there will be nothing the people can do at that point to oppose it. And it will be turnkey tyranny."
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    I truly believe if he thinks he is innocent why keep hiding? Wouldn't you think since he keeps running he actually gave up important info to other countries?


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... 25b2ebf321

    Edward Snowden: '...1) [...] the US Government, just as they did with other whistleblowers, immediately and predictably destroyed any possibility of a fair trial at home, openly declaring me guilty of treason and that the disclosure of secret, criminal, and even unconstitutional acts is an unforgivable crime. That's not justice, and it would be foolish to volunteer yourself to it if you can do more good outside of prison than in it.

    Second, let's be clear: I did not reveal any US operations against legitimate military targets. I pointed out where the NSA has hacked civilian infrastructure such as universities, hospitals, and private businesses because it is dangerous. These nakedly, aggressively criminal acts are wrong no matter the target. Not only that, when NSA makes a technical mistake during an exploitation operation, critical systems crash. Congress hasn't declared war on the countries - the majority of them are our allies - but without asking for public permission, NSA is running network operations against them that affect millions of innocent people. And for what? So we can have secret access to a computer in a country we're not even fighting? So we can potentially reveal a potential terrorist with the potential to kill fewer Americans than our own Police? No, the public needs to know the kinds of things a government does in its name, or the "consent of the governed" is meaningless.

    2) All I can say right now is the US Government is not going to be able to cover this up by jailing or murdering me. Truth is coming, and it cannot be stopped.
  • SmellymanSmellyman AsiaPosts: 4,233
    I find it strange that the same people who want small government and transparency are the ones defending the government.

    they don't want to pay taxes on the people but don't mind spending a few billion spying on them and killing others.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    Byrnzie wrote:
    There are real indications of tyranny emerging:

    1) Rules don’t apply to or are suspended for Government.
    2) Government will make up the rules to suit our purposes.
    3) If anyone attempts to hold us to account we will crush them.


    Meanwhile, it may just transpire that U.S Politicians come to realise that the World does not revolve around them.



    Tyranny doesn't exist you paranoid anti-government crazy person you.
Sign In or Register to comment.