I am getting the hint you think my views are complete bullshit. Well, my views are mine. In America you can think what you want, and believe what you want. Is it wrong I have hope that my government isn't using their powers for evil against us? I know the gov't does some shady stuff, but I bet every country does. Sorry your country (whatever it is) is so perfect. No one is perfect.
Regarding those statistics, I don't give a shit. The PRISM program can be used to fight more than terrorism. I hope it caught and stopped many criminals. If it hasn't, it should be used for that. It doesn't matter if terrorism rarely happens, when it does it is terrifying and it hurts people more than just a simple death from a car accident; it means that someone purposely killed you (or someone you know) because of religious, social, racial means. If those people can be stopped, that is great. You can't predict a lightning strike, you can't predict when you are about to choke, you never know when a police officer is gonna abuse and/or kill you, you never know when you will be in an accident, but you CAN stop a PLANNED attack despite it rarely happening. If you can stop it despite the fact it kind of intrudes on our lives, is that wrong? Yeah, its secretive, but has it hurt you? No.
You live in China, you are not here. If you were, you'd also realize that it doesn't affect us personally. Yeah, most of us are mad civil liberties are intruded upon, but at the same time we get it. Sorry we think rationally.
I understand your main argument is that its secretive, but many powerful countries probably do something like this as well. China isn't perfect (I know u are not Chinese); they do many shady things as well.
Take secretive out of the equation, what is so bad about it? If its the statistics crap, then reread what I said earlier.
Snowden's motive was genuine, but it was also illegal to give up any kind of defensive strategies to anyone, even if it was a newspaper. Taking that job he knew the consequences of such a situation; hero or not he broke the law. (which I am sure you will counter-argue that the gov't broke the law, but that could be debated due to interpretations of the 4th Amendment).
To me there is no other way to fight terrorism, so they did not convince me of anything. If thinking rationally is being a sheep, then you should try it. :roll:
Sorry if any of this sounded like I am being an asshole. I do not think negatively toward you. I enjoy our conversations on this thread. (I always like to clarify this, sorry if it sounds dumb. lol)
For the record, I don't think your views are bullshit, and I don't think you're an asshole. The only issue I have here is that It sounds to me like you have too much faith in your government. Those fuckers could begin using the information they've gleaned from you and every other American at any time in the future, for nefarious ends. They only need to make a radical policy change - such as widening the definition of the term 'terrorism' to include anything they deem threatening to their interests - and then everything else will fall into place for them, and by then it will be too late.
Hey Mr. Paranoia, you read way too much propaganda. Your insights and wishes will never happen in America.
The world is a scary place. We have many terrorists out there who are more willing to hurt the U.S. than before (or possibly just the same, except now they are more well-organized in a way).
This program, although intrudes on us, to me is no big deal. Yeah it sucks it happens, but if it protects us, WHO CARES. If I am doing nothing wrong, WHO CARES! What they gonna do, find out I have a free pizza waiting from Papa Johns? ( i dont at the moment, but hopefully soon! lol)
This program has not harmed anyone. It was set up for good intentions. Today I saw a new interview with George W. Bush supporting Obama saying how this program is the best for the country, which obviously it is. If they know about Americans, who cares! Maybe now they know my Bday by heart and can send me a gift.
It was kept secret so it could capture criminals and find out the truth about their intentions. It covers all Americans because any one of us can be a terrorist or criminal.
Sorry I am not one of those paranoid Americans who thinks everything the government does is an effort to take away our rights and make us all slaves (not saying you are Byrnzie. I applaud and praise you for making known an issue and trying to have a discussion on an issue you believe is worth talking about )
Snowden's opinion is that this program is bad because it intrudes on civil liberties. In the world today, we need a balance. In some cases our liberties would have to be intruded on to make sure we are safe. That is the world today. So I applaud him for trying to do what's right, but I'm sorry, he is living in 1788. It is 2013, the world is different. Like I said earlier, the Constitution needs to be updated a little bit.
I'm not a government lover and I don't always try to defend them, by the way. In this case I get what they did and why they did it, but I also understand I can be wrong and don't have all the details.
I just hope that your views are not widely held views in the U.S. Because if they are, then that's a very, very sad state of affairs. 'America, the land of the free.' What a fucking joke.
Hey Mr. Anti-American. I bet you were frothing at the mouth when you wrote this.
Really, your comment wasn't very nice. Even if it is your opinion. I Love America, Land of the Free
An entire planet to explore and he chooses China and Russia as his first ports of call. :fp:
I do agree that learning of this surveillance was probably no surprise to many intelligence agencies around the world. But as for what he might have...I do worry that a 29 year old who took his job specifically to collect and release classified information may have been able to get access to much more than your average employee who just went to work everyday.
You clearly have zero interest in this case, and are only interested in your own personal fantasies regarding it. It's already been made perfectly clear that Snowden was in possession of material that could have been very useful to countries such as China, or Russia, but that he chose not to release such material. The only material he has been willing to release is that which is of benefit to the citizens of the U.S and other countries who have been spied on.
But just keep ignoring that and indulging in your fantasies.
It has only been made perfectly clear to those who are willing to swallow every report they are predisposed to agree with hook line and sinker. To pretend any of us have any idea what Snowden has or has not shared with the Russians or the Chinese is quite the fantasy in and of itself. That Snowden chose China and Russia as his first destinations is indisputable. For some of us who are able to look at it objectively that is a cause for concern.
The myth of Edward Snowden continues to be made. How dare anyone stop to question it, eh?
Because pointing out U.S government wrong doing makes someone anti-American, right?
Anyone here feel like they're living in the 1950's?
i agree.
americans can not handle criticism. me personally, as an american, i don't give a shit. i am able to acknowledge the failures of my government and how they reflect on the american people and our image and reputation to other countries. our government does terrible things in our name, and when we are faced with the reality of it, we lash out at the whistleblower telling us about it.
:fp:
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway
americans can not handle criticism. me personally, as an american, i don't give a shit. i am able to acknowledge the failures of my government and how they reflect on the american people and our image and reputation to other countries. our government does terrible things in our name, and when we are faced with the reality of it, we lash out at the whistleblower telling us about it.
We're all very different people. We're not Watusi. We're not Spartans. We're Americans, with a capital 'A', huh? You know what that means? Do ya? That means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. We are the wretched refuse. We're the underdog. We're mutts! Here's proof: his nose is cold! But there's no animal that's more faithful, that's more loyal, more loveable than the mutt.
We're all very different people. We're not Watusi. We're not Spartans. We're Americans, with a capital 'A', huh? You know what that means? Do ya? That means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. We are the wretched refuse. We're the underdog. We're mutts! Here's proof: his nose is cold! But there's no animal that's more faithful, that's more loyal, more loveable than the mutt.
What country were they kicked out of? Sounds like whoever made that quote needs to go back to school.
Because pointing out U.S government wrong doing makes someone anti-American, right?
Anyone here feel like they're living in the 1950's?
No, because you think American freedoms are a fucking joke.
1950's....reading about something and actually living in it are 2 different things.
I don't agree with everything my American government does, but in the current spying issue presented by Edward Snowden, I take a stance with my government.
Because pointing out U.S government wrong doing makes someone anti-American, right?
Anyone here feel like they're living in the 1950's?
i agree.
americans can not handle criticism. me personally, as an american, i don't give a shit. i am able to acknowledge the failures of my government and how they reflect on the american people and our image and reputation to other countries. our government does terrible things in our name, and when we are faced with the reality of it, we lash out at the whistleblower telling us about it.
Is this really true, though? There are certainly some Americans who are unable to handle criticism but that could be said about any nationality. I have no problem accepting criticisms of the government and I think many of them are warranted. However, none of us should pretend that statements like this
Another example of the apathy of the American public.
are a criticism of the American government. I wouldn't really argue the point but if some choose to they are not defending the government. I think that is important to remember when this debate arises.
We're all very different people. We're not Watusi. We're not Spartans. We're Americans, with a capital 'A', huh? You know what that means? Do ya? That means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. We are the wretched refuse. We're the underdog. We're mutts! Here's proof: his nose is cold! But there's no animal that's more faithful, that's more loyal, more loveable than the mutt.
What country were they kicked out of? Sounds like whoever made that quote needs to go back to school.
Because pointing out U.S government wrong doing makes someone anti-American, right?
Anyone here feel like they're living in the 1950's?
i agree.
americans can not handle criticism. me personally, as an american, i don't give a shit. i am able to acknowledge the failures of my government and how they reflect on the american people and our image and reputation to other countries. our government does terrible things in our name, and when we are faced with the reality of it, we lash out at the whistleblower telling us about it.
Is this really true, though? There are certainly some Americans who are unable to handle criticism but that could be said about any nationality. I have no problem accepting criticisms of the government and I think many of them are warranted. However, none of us should pretend that statements like this
Another example of the apathy of the American public.
are a criticism of the American government. I wouldn't really argue the point but if some choose to they are not defending the government. I think that is important to remember when this debate arises.
byrnzie is criticizing the apathy of the american public. i see nothing wrong with that, because i view the american public as apathetic as well. if we cared so much why are we not out in the streets protesting what our government is doing in our names?
because dancing with the stars is on....
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway
byrnzie is criticizing the apathy of the american public. i see nothing wrong with that, because i view the american public as apathetic as well. if we cared so much why are we not out in the streets protesting what our government is doing in our names?
because dancing with the stars is on....
As I said, I wouldn't particularly argue that point. I point it out only because I have been told repeatedly that such criticisms do not exist, that critics of America have a problem with our government, not our people. So when a clear criticism of the American people is sprinkled in I do think it is worth noting. The criticisms aren't always centered on our government and defenses to those criticisms aren't always defenses of the government. I do think that is an important point to remember.
Sergei A. Markov, a pro-Kremlin analyst, said that if Mr. Snowden received asylum, he could acquire a Russian transit document and leave the country, or else remain in the country as a public figure, which he said would be “very good for public relations, he will be like Gérard Depardieu.” Mr. Depardieu, the French actor, sought Russian citizenship to avoid taxes in his home country.
A parade of public figures — including human rights activists, pro-Kremlin figures, Communists, nationalists and parliamentarians — have made statements in favor of granting him asylum. As anchors read reports on Mr. Snowden’s case on a popular news program Monday night, a vivid blue-and-red backdrop read “Betray Snowden — Betray Freedom” and showed President Obama wearing headphones, a visual reference to the surveillance programs Mr. Snowden has revealed.
“To be honest, I can’t see any problem there,” Ivan Melnikov, one of the leaders of Russia’s Communist Party, told Interfax. “If the problem is hysterics from the United States, they ought to remember that, historically speaking, granting political asylum to figures like Snowden is normal historical practice, and there’s no reason for Russia to be embarrassed and drop out.”
At a round table on Monday, a prominent leader of United Russia, the main pro-Kremlin party, said Mr. Snowden “has done no less to win the Nobel Prize than Barack Obama.” Kirill Kabanov, a member of the presidential human rights council, described Mr. Snowden as a man who “tried to save the world.”
Truth be told, I do agree with Melnikov. There is nothing unusual or sinister about granting someone political asylum and I would have no problems with the Russians or anyone else if they did.
byrnzie is criticizing the apathy of the american public. i see nothing wrong with that, because i view the american public as apathetic as well. if we cared so much why are we not out in the streets protesting what our government is doing in our names?
because dancing with the stars is on....
As I said, I wouldn't particularly argue that point. I point it out only because I have been told repeatedly that such criticisms do not exist, that critics of America have a problem with our government, not our people. So when a clear criticism of the American people is sprinkled in I do think it is worth noting. The criticisms aren't always centered on our government and defenses to those criticisms aren't always defenses of the government. I do think that is an important point to remember.
yes it is important to point out. but you can not deny the overwhelming sense of apathy displayed by the american people when it comes to matters such as these. look at benghazi. what happened to that scandal? the people did not care. point blank.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway
byrnzie is criticizing the apathy of the american public. i see nothing wrong with that, because i view the american public as apathetic as well. if we cared so much why are we not out in the streets protesting what our government is doing in our names?
because dancing with the stars is on....
As I said, I wouldn't particularly argue that point. I point it out only because I have been told repeatedly that such criticisms do not exist, that critics of America have a problem with our government, not our people. So when a clear criticism of the American people is sprinkled in I do think it is worth noting. The criticisms aren't always centered on our government and defenses to those criticisms aren't always defenses of the government. I do think that is an important point to remember.
yes it is important to point out. but you can not deny the overwhelming sense of apathy displayed by the american people when it comes to matters such as these. look at benghazi. what happened to that scandal? the people did not care. point blank.
Of course, and I did not deny it.
I will say that I think Benghazi was more of a tragedy and an example of the dangers of bureaucratic red tape than a scandal, but I hear what you are saying.
For the record, I don't think your views are bullshit, and I don't think you're an asshole. The only issue I have here is that It sounds to me like you have too much faith in your government. Those fuckers could begin using the information they've gleaned from you and every other American at any time in the future, for nefarious ends. They only need to make a radical policy change - such as widening the definition of the term 'terrorism' to include anything they deem threatening to their interests - and then everything else will fall into place for them, and by then it will be too late.
I have faith in them, but not that much. I know they do some shady stuff, but not extreme stuff like people say they do (such as staging shootings and killings). I don't think they have some secret agenda of enslaving Americans and taking away our rights like many Americans think. To me that is just extreme paranoia.
I know the gov't here pays off people here to get away with little things and other shady things like that, but that's about it.
I know America sticks its nose everywhere where it doesn't belong, and trust me i don't like it. But I keep a small amount of faith that it is all in effort to protect us.
I understand why many countries hate us, and i don't blame them. But I also wish that people from other countries would realize that the American people do not think like the gov't.
~Carter~
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
I will say that I think Benghazi was more of a tragedy and an example of the dangers of bureaucratic red tape than a scandal, but I hear what you are saying.
Same as me. I thought it was a tragedy. The GOP made it a scandal, imo. I was devastated to hear what happened, and then when I found out that the talking points were messed up or whatever, I was pissed that we had dumbshits in charge of that. I was glad Clinton stepped down after that.
~Carter~
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,880
I am getting the hint you think my views are complete bullshit. Well, my views are mine. In America you can think what you want, and believe what you want. Is it wrong I have hope that my government isn't using their powers for evil against us? I know the gov't does some shady stuff, but I bet every country does. Sorry your country (whatever it is) is so perfect. No one is perfect.
Regarding those statistics, I don't give a shit. The PRISM program can be used to fight more than terrorism. I hope it caught and stopped many criminals. If it hasn't, it should be used for that. It doesn't matter if terrorism rarely happens, when it does it is terrifying and it hurts people more than just a simple death from a car accident; it means that someone purposely killed you (or someone you know) because of religious, social, racial means. If those people can be stopped, that is great. You can't predict a lightning strike, you can't predict when you are about to choke, you never know when a police officer is gonna abuse and/or kill you, you never know when you will be in an accident, but you CAN stop a PLANNED attack despite it rarely happening. If you can stop it despite the fact it kind of intrudes on our lives, is that wrong? Yeah, its secretive, but has it hurt you? No.
You live in China, you are not here. If you were, you'd also realize that it doesn't affect us personally. Yeah, most of us are mad civil liberties are intruded upon, but at the same time we get it. Sorry we think rationally.
I understand your main argument is that its secretive, but many powerful countries probably do something like this as well. China isn't perfect (I know u are not Chinese); they do many shady things as well.
Take secretive out of the equation, what is so bad about it? If its the statistics crap, then reread what I said earlier.
Snowden's motive was genuine, but it was also illegal to give up any kind of defensive strategies to anyone, even if it was a newspaper. Taking that job he knew the consequences of such a situation; hero or not he broke the law. (which I am sure you will counter-argue that the gov't broke the law, but that could be debated due to interpretations of the 4th Amendment).
To me there is no other way to fight terrorism, so they did not convince me of anything. If thinking rationally is being a sheep, then you should try it. :roll:
Sorry if any of this sounded like I am being an asshole. I do not think negatively toward you. I enjoy our conversations on this thread. (I always like to clarify this, sorry if it sounds dumb. lol)
For the record, I don't think your views are bullshit, and I don't think you're an asshole. The only issue I have here is that It sounds to me like you have too much faith in your government. Those fuckers could begin using the information they've gleaned from you and every other American at any time in the future, for nefarious ends. They only need to make a radical policy change - such as widening the definition of the term 'terrorism' to include anything they deem threatening to their interests - and then everything else will fall into place for them, and by then it will be too late.
what say you about this then? I'm assuming you still hold a British Passport, do you not?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
'Those who wail about the leaks affecting national security might consider the words of Bruce Schneier, a security specialist, who wrote in the New York Times: "The argument that exposing these documents helps the terrorists doesn't even pass the laugh test; there's nothing here that changes anything any potential terrorist would do or not do."
Because pointing out U.S government wrong doing makes someone anti-American, right?
Anyone here feel like they're living in the 1950's?
No, because you think American freedoms are a fucking joke.
1950's....reading about something and actually living in it are 2 different things.
I don't agree with everything my American government does, but in the current spying issue presented by Edward Snowden, I take a stance with my government.
I don't think American freedoms are a fucking joke. I think that portraying America as the Land of The Free is a fucking joke.
I find it very interesting there are no comments from you in the Chinese worker thread yet you continue to trash the US in every post in this thread.
I find it interesting that that there are no comments from you in the Chinese worker thread either.
why? it's not hypocritical of me to NOT respond in that thread as i'm not going around criticizing other governments like you are.
It's not hypocritical of me not to respond to that thread either. Just because i live in China doesn't mean I'm obliged to respond to every single thread about China.
I don't think American freedoms are a fucking joke. I think that portraying America as the Land of The Free is a fucking joke.
To me it says the same thing.
By the way, how is your country's surveillance program coming along? :corn:
It's not the same thing. I don't think that the freedoms Americans have are a fucking joke. But I do think the idea that America is the land of the free is a fucking joke. And the fact that you have less than 5 percent of the world's population, but almost a quarter of the world's prisoners, and the fact that the population is almost completely de-politicized - see the Chomsky piece I linked to above - and are not concerned about their government lying to them, and spying on every single U.S citizen, tells me that you are anything but free. You also have a media that operates in almost total subservience to the rich and powerful, which is why Edward Snowden chose a foreign news outlet - the Guardian - to release his information to.
I don't think American freedoms are a fucking joke. I think that portraying America as the Land of The Free is a fucking joke.
To me it says the same thing.
By the way, how is your country's surveillance program coming along? :corn:
It's not the same thing. I don't think that the freedoms Americans have are a fucking joke. But I do think the idea that America is the land of the free is a fucking joke. And the fact that you have less than 5 percent of the world's population, but almost a quarter of the world's prisoners, and the fact that the population is almost completely de-politicized - see the Chomsky piece I linked to above - and are not concerned about their government lying to them, and spying on every single U.S citizen, tells me that you are anything but free. You also have a media that operates in almost total subservience to the rich and powerful, which is why Edward Snowden chose a foreign news outlet - the Guardian - to release his information to.
Although I agree with you, America actually still has more freedom and opportunities than most countries. I am free to go from city to city, get a job, earn a living, etc. Sure they spy on us, but they haven't affected our lives negatively. When you say America isn't free it sounds like you think America is a place where everyone being directly controlled by the government. They can see who we talk to, but they don't control how we live our life.
Yes it is sad the government watches us, but it is just your opinion on its severity.
The whole "America: Land of the Free and Home of Opportunities" is true but is over-hyped and over-exaggerated, but its still here, imo.
~Carter~
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
'...A sense of naked outrage gathered momentum across Europe at the reports that US agencies were bugging and tapping EU offices in Washington and New York, as well as the embassies of several EU member states. The push for clear answers from the Americans threatened to derail long-awaited talks on a transatlantic free trade pact between the US and the EU to create the world's biggest free-trade area.
"Washington is shooting itself in the foot," said Germany's conservative Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung newspaper. "Declaring the EU offices to be a legitimate attack target is more than the unfriendly act of a machine that knows no bounds and may be out of the control of politics and the courts."
..."The Americans justify everything with combatting terrorism," said the Luxembourg foreign minister, Jean Asselborn, who on Sunday described the latest allegations as disgusting. "The EU and its diplomats are not terrorists."
Elmar Brok, the veteran MEP who chairs the European parliament's foreign affairs committee and is from Merkel's Christian Democratic party, said the opening of the trade talks next week had been jeopardised. "How can you negotiate when you have got to fear that your own negotiating position has been intercepted in advance?" he asked.
...France's justice minister, Christiane Taubira, said, if confirmed, the US behaviour was of unspeakable hostility.
Although I agree with you, America actually still has more freedom and opportunities than most countries. I am free to go from city to city, get a job, earn a living, etc. Sure they spy on us, but they haven't affected our lives negatively. When you say America isn't free it sounds like you think America is a place where everyone being directly controlled by the government. They can see who we talk to, but they don't control how we live our life.
Yes it is sad the government watches us, but it is just your opinion on its severity.
The whole "America: Land of the Free and Home of Opportunities" is true but is over-hyped and over-exaggerated, but its still here, imo.
I didn't say America isn't free. What I am saying is that Americans, possibly more so than in any other country, are subjected to a daily barrage of government propaganda, disguised as 'news'. At least in China everyone knows the government are full of shit, and nobody here bothers reading newspapers. Also, the Chinese know that their communications are spied on by the authorities, which is why most people use VPN's, e.t.c. But then China doesn't pretend to be a democracy. Democracies aren't supposed to carry out covert mass-surveillance operations against their own citizens, with no transparency or accountability, and with no Congressional oversight.
If the Chinese system is so bad, then why is the U.S government trying to hard to imitate it?
Comments
I find it interesting that that there are no comments from you in the Chinese worker thread either.
Really, your comment wasn't very nice. Even if it is your opinion.
I Love America, Land of the Free
It has only been made perfectly clear to those who are willing to swallow every report they are predisposed to agree with hook line and sinker. To pretend any of us have any idea what Snowden has or has not shared with the Russians or the Chinese is quite the fantasy in and of itself. That Snowden chose China and Russia as his first destinations is indisputable. For some of us who are able to look at it objectively that is a cause for concern.
The myth of Edward Snowden continues to be made. How dare anyone stop to question it, eh?
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Because pointing out U.S government wrong doing makes someone anti-American, right?
Anyone here feel like they're living in the 1950's?
Did you live in the 1950's?
americans can not handle criticism. me personally, as an american, i don't give a shit. i am able to acknowledge the failures of my government and how they reflect on the american people and our image and reputation to other countries. our government does terrible things in our name, and when we are faced with the reality of it, we lash out at the whistleblower telling us about it.
:fp:
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
What country were they kicked out of? Sounds like whoever made that quote needs to go back to school.
No, because you think American freedoms are a fucking joke.
1950's....reading about something and actually living in it are 2 different things.
I don't agree with everything my American government does, but in the current spying issue presented by Edward Snowden, I take a stance with my government.
Is this really true, though? There are certainly some Americans who are unable to handle criticism but that could be said about any nationality. I have no problem accepting criticisms of the government and I think many of them are warranted. However, none of us should pretend that statements like this
are a criticism of the American government. I wouldn't really argue the point but if some choose to they are not defending the government. I think that is important to remember when this debate arises.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Settle down, Francis. Do they have HBO in China?
why? it's not hypocritical of me to NOT respond in that thread as i'm not going around criticizing other governments like you are.
because dancing with the stars is on....
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
As I said, I wouldn't particularly argue that point. I point it out only because I have been told repeatedly that such criticisms do not exist, that critics of America have a problem with our government, not our people. So when a clear criticism of the American people is sprinkled in I do think it is worth noting. The criticisms aren't always centered on our government and defenses to those criticisms aren't always defenses of the government. I do think that is an important point to remember.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Sergei A. Markov, a pro-Kremlin analyst, said that if Mr. Snowden received asylum, he could acquire a Russian transit document and leave the country, or else remain in the country as a public figure, which he said would be “very good for public relations, he will be like Gérard Depardieu.” Mr. Depardieu, the French actor, sought Russian citizenship to avoid taxes in his home country.
A parade of public figures — including human rights activists, pro-Kremlin figures, Communists, nationalists and parliamentarians — have made statements in favor of granting him asylum. As anchors read reports on Mr. Snowden’s case on a popular news program Monday night, a vivid blue-and-red backdrop read “Betray Snowden — Betray Freedom” and showed President Obama wearing headphones, a visual reference to the surveillance programs Mr. Snowden has revealed.
“To be honest, I can’t see any problem there,” Ivan Melnikov, one of the leaders of Russia’s Communist Party, told Interfax. “If the problem is hysterics from the United States, they ought to remember that, historically speaking, granting political asylum to figures like Snowden is normal historical practice, and there’s no reason for Russia to be embarrassed and drop out.”
At a round table on Monday, a prominent leader of United Russia, the main pro-Kremlin party, said Mr. Snowden “has done no less to win the Nobel Prize than Barack Obama.” Kirill Kabanov, a member of the presidential human rights council, described Mr. Snowden as a man who “tried to save the world.”
Truth be told, I do agree with Melnikov. There is nothing unusual or sinister about granting someone political asylum and I would have no problems with the Russians or anyone else if they did.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Of course, and I did not deny it.
I will say that I think Benghazi was more of a tragedy and an example of the dangers of bureaucratic red tape than a scandal, but I hear what you are saying.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
I have faith in them, but not that much. I know they do some shady stuff, but not extreme stuff like people say they do (such as staging shootings and killings). I don't think they have some secret agenda of enslaving Americans and taking away our rights like many Americans think. To me that is just extreme paranoia.
I know the gov't here pays off people here to get away with little things and other shady things like that, but that's about it.
I know America sticks its nose everywhere where it doesn't belong, and trust me i don't like it. But I keep a small amount of faith that it is all in effort to protect us.
I understand why many countries hate us, and i don't blame them. But I also wish that people from other countries would realize that the American people do not think like the gov't.
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
Same as me. I thought it was a tragedy. The GOP made it a scandal, imo. I was devastated to hear what happened, and then when I found out that the talking points were messed up or whatever, I was pissed that we had dumbshits in charge of that. I was glad Clinton stepped down after that.
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=209925
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
'Those who wail about the leaks affecting national security might consider the words of Bruce Schneier, a security specialist, who wrote in the New York Times: "The argument that exposing these documents helps the terrorists doesn't even pass the laugh test; there's nothing here that changes anything any potential terrorist would do or not do."
I don't think American freedoms are a fucking joke. I think that portraying America as the Land of The Free is a fucking joke.
To me it says the same thing.
By the way, how is your country's surveillance program coming along? :corn:
It's not hypocritical of me not to respond to that thread either. Just because i live in China doesn't mean I'm obliged to respond to every single thread about China.
It's not the same thing. I don't think that the freedoms Americans have are a fucking joke. But I do think the idea that America is the land of the free is a fucking joke. And the fact that you have less than 5 percent of the world's population, but almost a quarter of the world's prisoners, and the fact that the population is almost completely de-politicized - see the Chomsky piece I linked to above - and are not concerned about their government lying to them, and spying on every single U.S citizen, tells me that you are anything but free. You also have a media that operates in almost total subservience to the rich and powerful, which is why Edward Snowden chose a foreign news outlet - the Guardian - to release his information to.
Although I agree with you, America actually still has more freedom and opportunities than most countries. I am free to go from city to city, get a job, earn a living, etc. Sure they spy on us, but they haven't affected our lives negatively. When you say America isn't free it sounds like you think America is a place where everyone being directly controlled by the government. They can see who we talk to, but they don't control how we live our life.
Yes it is sad the government watches us, but it is just your opinion on its severity.
The whole "America: Land of the Free and Home of Opportunities" is true but is over-hyped and over-exaggerated, but its still here, imo.
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... -us-france
'...A sense of naked outrage gathered momentum across Europe at the reports that US agencies were bugging and tapping EU offices in Washington and New York, as well as the embassies of several EU member states. The push for clear answers from the Americans threatened to derail long-awaited talks on a transatlantic free trade pact between the US and the EU to create the world's biggest free-trade area.
"Washington is shooting itself in the foot," said Germany's conservative Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung newspaper. "Declaring the EU offices to be a legitimate attack target is more than the unfriendly act of a machine that knows no bounds and may be out of the control of politics and the courts."
..."The Americans justify everything with combatting terrorism," said the Luxembourg foreign minister, Jean Asselborn, who on Sunday described the latest allegations as disgusting. "The EU and its diplomats are not terrorists."
Elmar Brok, the veteran MEP who chairs the European parliament's foreign affairs committee and is from Merkel's Christian Democratic party, said the opening of the trade talks next week had been jeopardised. "How can you negotiate when you have got to fear that your own negotiating position has been intercepted in advance?" he asked.
...France's justice minister, Christiane Taubira, said, if confirmed, the US behaviour was of unspeakable hostility.
I didn't say America isn't free. What I am saying is that Americans, possibly more so than in any other country, are subjected to a daily barrage of government propaganda, disguised as 'news'. At least in China everyone knows the government are full of shit, and nobody here bothers reading newspapers. Also, the Chinese know that their communications are spied on by the authorities, which is why most people use VPN's, e.t.c. But then China doesn't pretend to be a democracy. Democracies aren't supposed to carry out covert mass-surveillance operations against their own citizens, with no transparency or accountability, and with no Congressional oversight.
If the Chinese system is so bad, then why is the U.S government trying to hard to imitate it?