then those people should be beat with a 4 foot long iron bar, set on fire & ran over with four large semi automatic tanks, thrown into a raging river then hung up by their ear lobes until dry then tossed onto a fire ant hill as they are then lathered in honey, syrup & coyote urine as the buzzards are brought in for entertainment purposes
I'm not going to judge anyone smoking pot, but some items have not been presented yet that should at least give someone pause for thought before accepting pot usage among teens.
Mental illness, paranoia, psychosis, and schizophrenia have all been linked to marijuana use. Not everyone exhibits these diagnoses, but some do. Pot use quadruples teens chances for developing schizophrenia. A fairly high price for a recreational high.
Pot is not harmless. The dope kids get today is way more potent than the dope we smoked as teens.
What is the answer? Not sure. Educating the kid about the 'downside of high' would be a good idea.
Leave it to a pot thread to drag me back to the pit
The Nature of Things episode you linked - I watched it a while back and don't remember much of what's covered...but I watched the intro, and it seems the cause they are using to show a link to schizophrenia is an increase in dopamine. What appears to me to be an identical study shows an opposite result (?) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1953 ... d_RVDocSum
Dr Suzuki also interviews the author of a meta-analysis (review of a bunch of previous studies) released in 2005, named "The environment and schizophrenia: the role of cannabis use"...it's available online, I will be checking it out later...but the claims this van Os character claims seem mostly contradicted in this 2007 meta-analysis... http://apt.rcpsych.org/content/13/6/400.full#sec-16
So who is right?
The 2007 article points out a ton of issues in determining a link between schizophrenia and psychosis and pot use. It does not completely rule it out, and calls for further research into whether psychosis can be prevented by preventing pot use....But just looking at the number of variables and issues with methodology, confounding, reverse causality, interpretation of results, etc....We have to realize that epidemiology has limitations and loooong learning curve when it comes to this shit...You throw in political bias and control over research funding, particularly when looking at a difficult to regulate substance (plant), which could harm the bottom line for several influential, established industries if legalized....knowing there is a large lobby working to maintain the status quo, we have to give a little extra scrutiny to scientific claims used to support the prohibitionists.
in relation to the OP - it seems a bit reckless to make a statement like "pot use quadruples teens chances for developing schizophrenia. a fairly high price for a recreational high"....because making a virtually unprovable statement like that as a way to deter pot use can be viewed as drug war propaganda or cherry-picked science, and turned around on you by a clever teen curious about getting a buzz These points are highly debatable and you're presenting them as fact....which could come off as a scare tactic (it does to me, anyway).
Pot is an extremely potent drug, and there seems to be no end to the users craving for stronger bud. I don't think people under the age of 21 should smoke. It shouldn't be demonized, but it shouldn't be accepted either. In WA state I have been hearing of some recent freakouts due to smoking weed. These are veterans too. There are some powerful shit floating around. Also, everyones seems to be making hash oil lately. BHO.
It shouldn't be demonized...but there have been 'some recent freakouts due to smoking weed' ? Veterans, no less!
Source?
"powerful shit" does not affect you any differently than "not-so-powerful-shit" if you smoke enough of it. More potent pot is likely better for a user who chooses to ingest by smoking, as they have to use less to get the same effect. http://www.alternet.org/story/19416/the ... ot%27_myth
I started smoking pot and drinking at 15... I've done acid 3 times, mushrooms twice, popped all kinds of pills...
On track to graduate in 4 years.
:thumbup: As has been stated here - priorities. Sounds like you have your shit together and understand the concept..
Once people understand that concept, it becomes a matter of personal choice and cost/benefit, imo. With costs being financial, legal, and health-related, with a lot of subjective (and also difficult to prove) benefits. For some people the benefits do not outweigh the costs, for others they do.
When we talk about people freaking out and stuff from weed, other than ones own brain chemistry, we are talking about THC levels and indica vs sativa. IMO research and growing techniques will strengthen as we legalize/decriminalize and the consumer will know what works best for them AND be able to obtain it. ie: you may want a low-medium THC indica to help with body aches at the end of the work day or to help with sleep, or a high THC sativa to take to Wrigley for a trippy good time.
Leave it to a pot thread to drag me back to the pit
The Nature of Things episode you linked - I watched it a while back and don't remember much of what's covered...but I watched the intro, and it seems the cause they are using to show a link to schizophrenia is an increase in dopamine. What appears to me to be an identical study shows an opposite result (?) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1953 ... d_RVDocSum
Dr Suzuki also interviews the author of a meta-analysis (review of a bunch of previous studies) released in 2005, named "The environment and schizophrenia: the role of cannabis use"...it's available online, I will be checking it out later...but the claims this van Os character claims seem mostly contradicted in this 2007 meta-analysis... http://apt.rcpsych.org/content/13/6/400.full#sec-16
So who is right?
The 2007 article points out a ton of issues in determining a link between schizophrenia and psychosis and pot use. It does not completely rule it out, and calls for further research into whether psychosis can be prevented by preventing pot use....But just looking at the number of variables and issues with methodology, confounding, reverse causality, interpretation of results, etc....We have to realize that epidemiology has limitations and loooong learning curve when it comes to this shit...You throw in political bias and control over research funding, particularly when looking at a difficult to regulate substance (plant), which could harm the bottom line for several influential, established industries if legalized....knowing there is a large lobby working to maintain the status quo, we have to give a little extra scrutiny to scientific claims used to support the prohibitionists.
in relation to the OP - it seems a bit reckless to make a statement like "pot use quadruples teens chances for developing schizophrenia. a fairly high price for a recreational high"....because making a virtually unprovable statement like that as a way to deter pot use can be viewed as drug war propaganda or cherry-picked science, and turned around on you by a clever teen curious about getting a buzz These points are highly debatable and you're presenting them as fact....which could come off as a scare tactic (it does to me, anyway).
I'm not trying to scare anyone. As I expressed before, I am not trying to be the thread 'square'. I know full well how people can smoke marijuana and still have productive and happy lives. But it would be naive to suggest to anyone that pot is perfect and doesn't have its pitfalls. Suzuki is a well-respected researcher. His film isn't propoganda: he presents his findings which seem to support what experts have been saying for decades. To me, they are at a very minimum worth noting. I'm not so sure that qualifies as reckless and I'm also not sure that you can dismiss them so easily.
Troubling again though, is it seems as if people are advocating for the use of marijuana among our youth sector. While the negative side effects are debatable... people cannot be serious when they suggest that pot is harmless and that teens should pursue getting high because there is no problem with doing so.
Regardless, I understand the 'draw' and I'm not so naive to think that kids- or adults for that matter- will abstain after hearing the negative side effects of marijuana use. All I'm saying we need to provide our youth with information and have them make informed choices without promoting the drug. Is there a problem with this?
I started smoking pot and drinking at 15... I've done acid 3 times, mushrooms twice, popped all kinds of pills...
On track to graduate in 4 years.
:thumbup: As has been stated here - priorities. Sounds like you have your shit together and understand the concept..
Once people understand that concept, it becomes a matter of personal choice and cost/benefit, imo. With costs being financial, legal, and health-related, with a lot of subjective (and also difficult to prove) benefits. For some people the benefits do not outweigh the costs, for others they do.
Another thumbs-up from here.
(we sorely need more people with their overall shit together like young PFP )
Glad you dipped your toe in again here, Drowned Out!
I started smoking pot and drinking at 15... I've done acid 3 times, mushrooms twice, popped all kinds of pills...
On track to graduate in 4 years.
:thumbup: As has been stated here - priorities. Sounds like you have your shit together and understand the concept..
Once people understand that concept, it becomes a matter of personal choice and cost/benefit, imo. With costs being financial, legal, and health-related, with a lot of subjective (and also difficult to prove) benefits. For some people the benefits do not outweigh the costs, for others they do.
I think the OP has got it right with mentioning priorities. (you too, DO) Another thing though, if I had to deal with younger siblings and getting them on the right track is to include alcohol in the conversation, as the alcohol is as much an issue as pot smoking is with teens. Because the alcohol is just as bad, if not worse, because it's actually LEGAL, and has proven to be more deadly.
I'm not trying to scare anyone. As I expressed before, I am not trying to be the thread 'square'. I know full well how people can smoke marijuana and still have productive and happy lives. But it would be naive to suggest to anyone that pot is perfect and doesn't have its pitfalls. Suzuki is a well-respected researcher. His film isn't propoganda: he presents his findings which seem to support what experts have been saying for decades. To me, they are at a very minimum worth noting. I'm not so sure that qualifies as reckless and I'm also not sure that you can dismiss them so easily.
Troubling again though, is it seems as if people are advocating for the use of marijuana among our youth sector. While the negative side effects are debatable... people cannot be serious when they suggest that pot is harmless and that teens should pursue getting high because there is no problem with doing so.
Regardless, I understand the 'draw' and I'm not so naive to think that kids- or adults for that matter- will abstain after hearing the negative side effects of marijuana use. All I'm saying we need to provide our youth with information and have them make informed choices without promoting the drug. Is there a problem with this?
No problem with that, and we're not that far apart in what we're saying here (I def don't think you're being a square lol)....but that's not all you said....I quoted the direct statement of fact I objected to; that pot quadruples the risk of schizophrenia.
That's a misleading statement. There are problems with the studies and their results.
the increased risk of schizophrenia is proposed to be found in people with a predisposition to it, not everyone....a recent paper (Cannabis and psychosis: what causes what? - David Castle) claimed that preventing this causal link via prohibition would only prevent schizophrenia in 8% of people genetically predisposed to it... We're talking about a fraction of 8% of fraction of heavy pot users in the overall population. A fraction of a fraction of a fraction. This doesn't even consider the challenges to defining/diagnosing these mental illnesses in general. So it might be worth noting, but really only to a small, targeted group, and certainly not as any kind of cornerstone to deterrence.
They've been trying to prove "reefer madness" since pot was first outlawed. Drug related health care education is almost forced to choose a side on the prohibition debate, with prohibition proponents focusing on links to mental illness, and prohibition opponents focusing on the flaws in the studies. That's a lot of wasted effort imo. Dr van Os has stated himself that "the results effect such a small number of people it should never be used to guide legislation"...yet it is, via the media's misuse of his information. Dr. Suzuki is well researched and respected (by myself as well), but by narrowing the research down to a limited-scope, singular-viewpoint mainstream tv doc, combined with his use of some old information and not talking much (if at all) about the problems with the findings, his position here debatable. We never hear from the media when these negative results are contradicted by further research...nor do we see much research into any beneficial side effects of occasional use like we do with alcohol.
Anyway - it is obviously naive to claim that taking smoke into your lungs, and feeling an altered mental state on a regular basis over a long period is harmless. I'm all for informing teens, but I think we need to be careful about how we inform them. I think moderate use of marijuana is def a lesser-of-a-million-evils when it comes to teen experimentation with inebriation. They need to know that heavy use is different from experimentation and can be a form of self-medication - and there are def better ways to handle the problems people self-medicate to control... It would be stupid to promote anything other than a perfect, healthy lifestyle...but that's not reality for most people...so I wouldn't worry much about it if they had their priorities straight, and would actually be relieved if I knew they were choosing weed alone over binge drinking or pretty much any other dangerous activity.
No problem with that, and we're not that far apart in what we're saying here (I def don't think you're being a square lol)....but that's not all you said....I quoted the direct statement of fact I objected to; that pot quadruples the risk of schizophrenia.
That's a misleading statement. There are problems with the studies and their results.
the increased risk of schizophrenia is proposed to be found in people with a predisposition to it, not everyone....a recent paper (Cannabis and psychosis: what causes what? - David Castle) claimed that preventing this causal link via prohibition would only prevent schizophrenia in 8% of people genetically predisposed to it... We're talking about a fraction of 8% of fraction of heavy pot users in the overall population. A fraction of a fraction of a fraction. This doesn't even consider the challenges to defining/diagnosing these mental illnesses in general. So it might be worth noting, but really only to a small, targeted group, and certainly not as any kind of cornerstone to deterrence.
They've been trying to prove "reefer madness" since pot was first outlawed. Drug related health care education is almost forced to choose a side on the prohibition debate, with prohibition proponents focusing on links to mental illness, and prohibition opponents focusing on the flaws in the studies. That's a lot of wasted effort imo. Dr van Os has stated himself that "the results effect such a small number of people it should never be used to guide legislation"...yet it is, via the media's misuse of his information. Dr. Suzuki is well researched and respected (by myself as well), but by narrowing the research down to a limited-scope, singular-viewpoint mainstream tv doc, combined with his use of some old information and not talking much (if at all) about the problems with the findings, his position here debatable. We never hear from the media when these negative results are contradicted by further research...nor do we see much research into any beneficial side effects of occasional use like we do with alcohol.
Anyway - it is obviously naive to claim that taking smoke into your lungs, and feeling an altered mental state on a regular basis over a long period is harmless. I'm all for informing teens, but I think we need to be careful about how we inform them. I think moderate use of marijuana is def a lesser-of-a-million-evils when it comes to teen experimentation with inebriation. They need to know that heavy use is different from experimentation and can be a form of self-medication - and there are def better ways to handle the problems people self-medicate to control... It would be stupid to promote anything other than a perfect, healthy lifestyle...but that's not reality for most people...so I wouldn't worry much about it if they had their priorities straight, and would actually be relieved if I knew they were choosing weed alone over binge drinking or pretty much any other dangerous activity.
I agree with what you have written here. I share the opinion that alcohol is more destructive to the human body than pot. The stat that has us at odds might be a little misleading, but the point is nobody knows who is predisposed unless they have a history of mental illness in their family. There is a risk there and people should be aware of it regardless of the percentages because the consequences are profound.
I think the OP has got it right with mentioning priorities. (you too, DO) Another thing though, if I had to deal with younger siblings and getting them on the right track is to include alcohol in the conversation, as the alcohol is as much an issue as pot smoking is with teens. Because the alcohol is just as bad, if not worse, because it's actually LEGAL, and has proven to be more deadly.
Ya, alcohol is a WAY bigger issue with teens, for a lot of reasons....you're right, the discussion shouldn't be focused on MJ alone....it should be focused on lifestyle choices, priorities, health, goals, etc; more big-picture....moral debates of right and wrong, and tail-chasing over debatable science should be an interesting sidetrack component of the conversation, but imo, not a factor in guiding the position presented (that's not directed at you, Thirty Bills, I don't think you're doing that)...I think the more open we appear to our kids on the topic, the more likely we are to leave communication channels with them open....so in the end....maybe quiet acceptance of a little experimentation will allow us an ability to determine if the use is becoming detrimental. It would also dissuade use stemming from outright rebellion/defiance, if that's a factor...
I'm not going to judge anyone smoking pot, but some items have not been presented yet that should at least give someone pause for thought before accepting pot usage among teens.
Mental illness, paranoia, psychosis, and schizophrenia have all been linked to marijuana use. Not everyone exhibits these diagnoses, but some do. Pot use quadruples teens chances for developing schizophrenia. A fairly high price for a recreational high.
Pot is not harmless. The dope kids get today is way more potent than the dope we smoked as teens.
What is the answer? Not sure. Educating the kid about the 'downside of high' would be a good idea.
Leave it to a pot thread to drag me back to the pit
The Nature of Things episode you linked - I watched it a while back and don't remember much of what's covered...but I watched the intro, and it seems the cause they are using to show a link to schizophrenia is an increase in dopamine. What appears to me to be an identical study shows an opposite result (?) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1953 ... d_RVDocSum
Dr Suzuki also interviews the author of a meta-analysis (review of a bunch of previous studies) released in 2005, named "The environment and schizophrenia: the role of cannabis use"...it's available online, I will be checking it out later...but the claims this van Os character claims seem mostly contradicted in this 2007 meta-analysis... http://apt.rcpsych.org/content/13/6/400.full#sec-16
So who is right?
The 2007 article points out a ton of issues in determining a link between schizophrenia and psychosis and pot use. It does not completely rule it out, and calls for further research into whether psychosis can be prevented by preventing pot use....But just looking at the number of variables and issues with methodology, confounding, reverse causality, interpretation of results, etc....We have to realize that epidemiology has limitations and loooong learning curve when it comes to this shit...You throw in political bias and control over research funding, particularly when looking at a difficult to regulate substance (plant), which could harm the bottom line for several influential, established industries if legalized....knowing there is a large lobby working to maintain the status quo, we have to give a little extra scrutiny to scientific claims used to support the prohibitionists.
in relation to the OP - it seems a bit reckless to make a statement like "pot use quadruples teens chances for developing schizophrenia. a fairly high price for a recreational high"....because making a virtually unprovable statement like that as a way to deter pot use can be viewed as drug war propaganda or cherry-picked science, and turned around on you by a clever teen curious about getting a buzz These points are highly debatable and you're presenting them as fact....which could come off as a scare tactic (it does to me, anyway).
Good post! I had wondered where you were these days. Come to Wrigley! :wave:
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I started smoking pot and drinking at 15... I've done acid 3 times, mushrooms twice, popped all kinds of pills... I smoke half a pack a day....
On track to graduate in 4 years.
And I started smoking weed and drinking and dropping acid at 13, could legitimately have been called a pot head between 1992 and 1999, did acid well over 200 times by the time I was 19, and have done coke a few times, shrooms, E, peyote, and a bunch of other shit that I don't even remember the names of. And I made good enough grades to get a scholarship out of high school, was fully present for 6 years of university, have a university degree, a professional certificate, and a solid full time job and my brains aren't mush. And i know several people who were right by my side in those days and flourished. Even my acid dealer is doing pretty well apparently, and one of my pot dealers/roommates from college was getting free tuition for holding a 4.2 GPA.
However, I also know of several people with about the same lifestyle that I had who went n the exact opposite direction, not forgetting, of course, the girl with drug induced psychosis who eventually killed herself. And the guy who developed some kind of rage disorder and ended up murdering 2 innocent people, and the guy who I believe was an actual genius, but ended up spending time in prison and now works as some kind of handyman at the football stadium. More than one friend of mine from college became a pot head and ended up dropping out because of it. They were just too burned out. So yeah, it's totally possible to actually abuse substances (let alone use them casually) and still hold it together just fine. But I have seen with my own eyes that it's still a risk, so youths using drugs shouldn't be something supported by any adult ever.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Pot is an extremely potent drug, and there seems to be no end to the users craving for stronger bud. I don't think people under the age of 21 should smoke. It shouldn't be demonized, but it shouldn't be accepted either. In WA state I have been hearing of some recent freakouts due to smoking weed. These are veterans too. There are some powerful shit floating around. Also, everyones seems to be making hash oil lately. BHO.
It shouldn't be demonized...but there have been 'some recent freakouts due to smoking weed' ? Veterans, no less!
Source?
"powerful shit" does not affect you any differently than "not-so-powerful-shit" if you smoke enough of it. More potent pot is likely better for a user who chooses to ingest by smoking, as they have to use less to get the same effect. http://www.alternet.org/story/19416/the ... ot%27_myth
Yeah, I've never in my life heard of anyone freaking out like that from smoking weed no matter how potent. I don't think it happens (maybe it's people on something else as well, or maybe drunk people). A lot of info like that is definitely propaganda from the anti pot brigade.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I'm sorry to burst your bubble friends, especially because it seems you know soooo much about drugs, but I work in an emergency room and we get our fair share of people coming in from the use of marijuana.
Of course its a minute fraction of users. That wasn't my point.
My point is that the funny thing about pot is that there seems no end to the potency race. People cannot be content with just regular grown weed.
Do you know what BHO is? Its insane. I've seen people do this. Its like they are cooking meth. Weird.
And when I said "veterans", I meant veteran pot smokers. Didn't know if you understood that.
And just because my life looks great on the outside doesn't mean that i'm not dying on the inside, or that others aren't suffering from my own "harmless" choices.
But I have seen with my own eyes that it's still a risk, so youths using drugs shouldn't be something supported by any adult ever.
And this is where I am at. As adults, despite our pasts, we need to be the vigilant ones and not diminish the levels of risk by wholly endorsing or marginalizing drug usage among our youth faction.
I don't want my children smoking dope and doing other drugs. If they do... it likely won't be the end of the world; however, as idealistic as it might sound... I would prefer they get their kicks doing other things.
I started smoking pot and drinking at 15... I've done acid 3 times, mushrooms twice, popped all kinds of pills... I smoke half a pack a day....
On track to graduate in 4 years.
And I started smoking weed and drinking and dropping acid at 13, could legitimately have been called a pot head between 1992 and 1999, did acid well over 200 times by the time I was 19, and have done coke a few times, shrooms, E, peyote, and a bunch of other shit that I don't even remember the names of. And I made good enough grades to get a scholarship out of high school, was fully present for 6 years of university, have a university degree, a professional certificate, and a solid full time job and my brains aren't mush. And i know several people who were right by my side in those days and flourished. Even my acid dealer is doing pretty well apparently, and one of my pot dealers/roommates from college was getting free tuition for holding a 4.2 GPA.
However, I also know of several people with about the same lifestyle that I had who went n the exact opposite direction, not forgetting, of course, the girl with drug induced psychosis who eventually killed herself. And the guy who developed some kind of rage disorder and ended up murdering 2 innocent people, and the guy who I believe was an actual genius, but ended up spending time in prison and now works as some kind of handyman at the football stadium. More than one friend of mine from college became a pot head and ended up dropping out because of it. They were just too burned out. So yeah, it's totally possible to actually abuse substances (let alone use them casually) and still hold it together just fine. But I have seen with my own eyes that it's still a risk, so youths using drugs shouldn't be something supported by any adult ever.
I'm sorry to burst your bubble friends, especially because it seems you know soooo much about drugs, but I work in an emergency room and we get our fair share of people coming in from the use of marijuana.
Of course its a minute fraction of users. That wasn't my point.
My point is that the funny thing about pot is that there seems no end to the potency race. People cannot be content with just regular grown weed.
Do you know what BHO is? Its insane. I've seen people do this. Its like they are cooking meth. Weird.
And when I said "veterans", I meant veteran pot smokers. Didn't know if you understood that.
And just because my life looks great on the outside doesn't mean that i'm not dying on the inside, or that others aren't suffering from my own "harmless" choices.
Man do I sound PREACHY
Well...with your "know sooo much" comment, yes...you do sound preachy. (you actually mentioned coming off as preachy to someone else in another thread)
Minute fraction of users - which means that yeah...most exercise responsiblity with it.
My life IS great, doesn't just look so. Not dying on the inside or anywhere else.
I've smoked for quite awhile, we're doing fine on all fronts. I get that not everyone can make the same choices and arrive at the same place - but let's not belittle those to do, and have - and are.
But I have seen with my own eyes that it's still a risk, so youths using drugs shouldn't be something supported by any adult ever.
And this is where I am at. As adults, despite our pasts, we need to be the vigilant ones and not diminish the levels of risk by wholly endorsing or marginalizing drug usage among our youth faction.
I don't want my children smoking dope and doing other drugs. If they do... it likely won't be the end of the world; however, as idealistic as it might sound... I would prefer they get their kicks doing other things.
I would never say "hey kids, go smoke dope" BUT I would rather them experiment with weed than the shit I did or the shit that's out there now. The biggest problem in the high schools where I live are pills. Easier to get than weed or alcohol, in every home, cheap, and far more dangerous. Specifically, addys (adderall), bars (Xanax and other benzos), and triple c (coricidin cold & cough). I've seen too many kids OD on pills, friends of my children, my friends children and former students. And the kids see nothing wrong with pills. The withdrawal from benzos alone can kill you.
I don't want to condone the youth smoking, BUT if I had to choose, I'd rather they be potheads than barheads any day!
Oh hedonist. Don't take it so personal. I wasn't implying you were a loser for smoking pot. I was just saying pot is not harmless, people do have "freakouts", and just because someone's(anyone's, MY) life looks great from the outside doesn't mean shit if i'm a wreck on the inside.(AS IF SUCCESS IS AN OUTSIDE THING ) Don't you agree?
I would never say "hey kids, go smoke dope" BUT I would rather them experiment with weed than the shit I did or the shit that's out there now. The biggest problem in the high schools where I live are pills. Easier to get than weed or alcohol, in every home, cheap, and far more dangerous. Specifically, addys (adderall), bars (Xanax and other benzos), and triple c (coricidin cold & cough). I've seen too many kids OD on pills, friends of my children, my friends children and former students. And the kids see nothing wrong with pills. The withdrawal from benzos alone can kill you.
I don't want to condone the youth smoking, BUT if I had to choose, I'd rather they be potheads than barheads any day!
Again... education. The only thing we can do is outline the risks and detail the experiences of others.
And you won't get an argument from me regarding the destructive potential of alcohol. Faced with a shitty choice... I'd prefer my kids to be potheads instead of alcoholics.
I'm sorry to burst your bubble friends, especially because it seems you know soooo much about drugs, but I work in an emergency room and we get our fair share of people coming in from the use of marijuana.
sorry, but emergency room for marijuana use alone? I have to question that...can you give specific examples of what you've observed and whether or not you followed up on any of those observations?
My point is that the funny thing about pot is that there seems no end to the potency race. People cannot be content with just regular grown weed.
Potency race? Yes people have been cross-breeding for years to achieve specific outcomes....and the averagepotency has increased significantly. But top-end potency has not changed much over the years. The more potent strains are finding their way further from their native soils, and cross breeds have maximized yields or THC/CBD content or whatever. There is no super-pot. It's a myth. Funny thing is - this drug war tactic of saying "the pot is so much more powerful today than it used to be" became prevalent in the 70's /80's, when hash was way more common (hash has more concentrated levels of THC than pot). So the shit many people smoked back then was stronger than most pot today.
Do you know what BHO is? Its insane. I've seen people do this. Its like they are cooking meth. Weird.
Honey oil?....yes, the process is weird....I've seen oil made with isopropyl too...dangerous as hell...another reason to legalize and regulate production.
And yes, it has super high THC content.....but the whole super-pot argument falls apart when you remember that like alcohol, people ingest only enough to achieve a desired effect, then stop. It's not like they would smoke a half gram of honey oil in a sitting, the same way they'd smoke a half gram joint. Get the good stuff to save your lungs, and some $$
And when I said "veterans", I meant veteran pot smokers. Didn't know if you understood that.
And just because my life looks great on the outside doesn't mean that i'm not dying on the inside, or that others aren't suffering from my own "harmless" choices.
Man do I sound PREACHY
yes, I knew what you meant by veterans. It sounded funny that you were saying that the pot is soooo crazy potent that even potheads are getting really fucked up....like it's an ultra-pure batch of black tar hitting the junkies on skid row or something just fuckin withcha bro
Oh hedonist. Don't take it so personal. I wasn't implying you were a loser for smoking pot. I was just saying pot is not harmless, people do have "freakouts", and just because someone's(anyone's, MY) life looks great from the outside doesn't mean shit if i'm a wreck on the inside.(AS IF SUCCESS IS AN OUTSIDE THING ) Don't you agree?
Sorry if I overreacted...but I get tired of the mindset you presented - and yes, I did take the implication you mentioned as such, especially in how it was put forth.
Guess I'm tired of misplaced handwringing - most people who smoke weed do just fine.
I too would like to hear more about those in the ER for pot. Is that the only factor, just smoking it?
All I ask, as with anything, is a fair and well-reasoned shake.
a fucking idiot might end up in the E.R. if they smoked an entire joint of Afghan all to themselves & they are 6 years old & been coddled all their life. like that...
the best thing to do is stop... lie down in bed & ride the magical waves of super duper high cowboy land & take the entire football field width & length straight through your frickin skull as the flashing triangled colored shapes dance around you & the tractor outside your bedroom window is now a gentleman's privates
I started smoking pot and drinking at 15... I've done acid 3 times, mushrooms twice, popped all kinds of pills... I smoke half a pack a day....
On track to graduate in 4 years.
And I started smoking weed and drinking and dropping acid at 13, could legitimately have been called a pot head between 1992 and 1999, did acid well over 200 times by the time I was 19, and have done coke a few times, shrooms, E, peyote, and a bunch of other shit that I don't even remember the names of. And I made good enough grades to get a scholarship out of high school, was fully present for 6 years of university, have a university degree, a professional certificate, and a solid full time job and my brains aren't mush. And i know several people who were right by my side in those days and flourished. Even my acid dealer is doing pretty well apparently, and one of my pot dealers/roommates from college was getting free tuition for holding a 4.2 GPA.
However, I also know of several people with about the same lifestyle that I had who went n the exact opposite direction, not forgetting, of course, the girl with drug induced psychosis who eventually killed herself. And the guy who developed some kind of rage disorder and ended up murdering 2 innocent people, and the guy who I believe was an actual genius, but ended up spending time in prison and now works as some kind of handyman at the football stadium. More than one friend of mine from college became a pot head and ended up dropping out because of it. They were just too burned out. So yeah, it's totally possible to actually abuse substances (let alone use them casually) and still hold it together just fine. But I have seen with my own eyes that it's still a risk, so youths using drugs shouldn't be something supported by any adult ever.
Show off
:fp: Yeah, saying that my extreme drug use as a youth luckily didn't turn my brain into mush. Not exactly something to be proud of!
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Yeah. Alice in Chains, Sublime, Nirvana, Red Hot chilli Peppers, Green
River, ALMOST and maybe Sound garden and STP....!!!!!!
Has nothing to do with POT?!!!!
I can go on..... :?
Fine... My ex room mate smoked bath salts, and begged me to take him to the hospital. I gave him his own phone and said "dude ... call them when you are ready"
Drugs are bad... Why are you smoking Bath salts?
Yeah. Alice in Chains, Sublime, Nirvana, Red Hot chilli Peppers, Green
River, ALMOST and maybe Sound garden and STP....!!!!!!
Has nothing to do with POT?!!!!
I can go on..... :?
Fine... My ex room mate smoked bath salts, and begged me to take him to the hospital. I gave him his own phone and said "dude ... call them when you are ready"
Drugs are bad... Why are you smoking Bath salts?
bath salts are not drugs. bath salts are bath salts.
Comments
One of the two for sure though!
The Nature of Things episode you linked - I watched it a while back and don't remember much of what's covered...but I watched the intro, and it seems the cause they are using to show a link to schizophrenia is an increase in dopamine. What appears to me to be an identical study shows an opposite result (?)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1953 ... d_RVDocSum
Dr Suzuki also interviews the author of a meta-analysis (review of a bunch of previous studies) released in 2005, named "The environment and schizophrenia: the role of cannabis use"...it's available online, I will be checking it out later...but the claims this van Os character claims seem mostly contradicted in this 2007 meta-analysis...
http://apt.rcpsych.org/content/13/6/400.full#sec-16
So who is right?
The 2007 article points out a ton of issues in determining a link between schizophrenia and psychosis and pot use. It does not completely rule it out, and calls for further research into whether psychosis can be prevented by preventing pot use....But just looking at the number of variables and issues with methodology, confounding, reverse causality, interpretation of results, etc....We have to realize that epidemiology has limitations and loooong learning curve when it comes to this shit...You throw in political bias and control over research funding, particularly when looking at a difficult to regulate substance (plant), which could harm the bottom line for several influential, established industries if legalized....knowing there is a large lobby working to maintain the status quo, we have to give a little extra scrutiny to scientific claims used to support the prohibitionists.
in relation to the OP - it seems a bit reckless to make a statement like "pot use quadruples teens chances for developing schizophrenia. a fairly high price for a recreational high"....because making a virtually unprovable statement like that as a way to deter pot use can be viewed as drug war propaganda or cherry-picked science, and turned around on you by a clever teen curious about getting a buzz
On track to graduate in 4 years.
Source?
"powerful shit" does not affect you any differently than "not-so-powerful-shit" if you smoke enough of it. More potent pot is likely better for a user who chooses to ingest by smoking, as they have to use less to get the same effect.
http://www.alternet.org/story/19416/the ... ot%27_myth
Once people understand that concept, it becomes a matter of personal choice and cost/benefit, imo. With costs being financial, legal, and health-related, with a lot of subjective (and also difficult to prove) benefits. For some people the benefits do not outweigh the costs, for others they do.
I'm not trying to scare anyone. As I expressed before, I am not trying to be the thread 'square'. I know full well how people can smoke marijuana and still have productive and happy lives. But it would be naive to suggest to anyone that pot is perfect and doesn't have its pitfalls. Suzuki is a well-respected researcher. His film isn't propoganda: he presents his findings which seem to support what experts have been saying for decades. To me, they are at a very minimum worth noting. I'm not so sure that qualifies as reckless and I'm also not sure that you can dismiss them so easily.
Troubling again though, is it seems as if people are advocating for the use of marijuana among our youth sector. While the negative side effects are debatable... people cannot be serious when they suggest that pot is harmless and that teens should pursue getting high because there is no problem with doing so.
Regardless, I understand the 'draw' and I'm not so naive to think that kids- or adults for that matter- will abstain after hearing the negative side effects of marijuana use. All I'm saying we need to provide our youth with information and have them make informed choices without promoting the drug. Is there a problem with this?
(we sorely need more people with their overall shit together like young PFP
Glad you dipped your toe in again here, Drowned Out!
I think the OP has got it right with mentioning priorities. (you too, DO) Another thing though, if I had to deal with younger siblings and getting them on the right track is to include alcohol in the conversation, as the alcohol is as much an issue as pot smoking is with teens. Because the alcohol is just as bad, if not worse, because it's actually LEGAL, and has proven to be more deadly.
That's a misleading statement. There are problems with the studies and their results.
the increased risk of schizophrenia is proposed to be found in people with a predisposition to it, not everyone....a recent paper (Cannabis and psychosis: what causes what? - David Castle) claimed that preventing this causal link via prohibition would only prevent schizophrenia in 8% of people genetically predisposed to it... We're talking about a fraction of 8% of fraction of heavy pot users in the overall population. A fraction of a fraction of a fraction. This doesn't even consider the challenges to defining/diagnosing these mental illnesses in general. So it might be worth noting, but really only to a small, targeted group, and certainly not as any kind of cornerstone to deterrence.
They've been trying to prove "reefer madness" since pot was first outlawed. Drug related health care education is almost forced to choose a side on the prohibition debate, with prohibition proponents focusing on links to mental illness, and prohibition opponents focusing on the flaws in the studies. That's a lot of wasted effort imo. Dr van Os has stated himself that "the results effect such a small number of people it should never be used to guide legislation"...yet it is, via the media's misuse of his information. Dr. Suzuki is well researched and respected (by myself as well), but by narrowing the research down to a limited-scope, singular-viewpoint mainstream tv doc, combined with his use of some old information and not talking much (if at all) about the problems with the findings, his position here debatable. We never hear from the media when these negative results are contradicted by further research...nor do we see much research into any beneficial side effects of occasional use like we do with alcohol.
Anyway - it is obviously naive to claim that taking smoke into your lungs, and feeling an altered mental state on a regular basis over a long period is harmless. I'm all for informing teens, but I think we need to be careful about how we inform them. I think moderate use of marijuana is def a lesser-of-a-million-evils when it comes to teen experimentation with inebriation. They need to know that heavy use is different from experimentation and can be a form of self-medication - and there are def better ways to handle the problems people self-medicate to control... It would be stupid to promote anything other than a perfect, healthy lifestyle...but that's not reality for most people...so I wouldn't worry much about it if they had their priorities straight, and would actually be relieved if I knew they were choosing weed alone over binge drinking or pretty much any other dangerous activity.
I agree with what you have written here. I share the opinion that alcohol is more destructive to the human body than pot. The stat that has us at odds might be a little misleading, but the point is nobody knows who is predisposed unless they have a history of mental illness in their family. There is a risk there and people should be aware of it regardless of the percentages because the consequences are profound.
However, I also know of several people with about the same lifestyle that I had who went n the exact opposite direction, not forgetting, of course, the girl with drug induced psychosis who eventually killed herself. And the guy who developed some kind of rage disorder and ended up murdering 2 innocent people, and the guy who I believe was an actual genius, but ended up spending time in prison and now works as some kind of handyman at the football stadium. More than one friend of mine from college became a pot head and ended up dropping out because of it. They were just too burned out. So yeah, it's totally possible to actually abuse substances (let alone use them casually) and still hold it together just fine. But I have seen with my own eyes that it's still a risk, so youths using drugs shouldn't be something supported by any adult ever.
Of course its a minute fraction of users. That wasn't my point.
My point is that the funny thing about pot is that there seems no end to the potency race. People cannot be content with just regular grown weed.
Do you know what BHO is? Its insane. I've seen people do this. Its like they are cooking meth. Weird.
And when I said "veterans", I meant veteran pot smokers. Didn't know if you understood that.
And just because my life looks great on the outside doesn't mean that i'm not dying on the inside, or that others aren't suffering from my own "harmless" choices.
Man do I sound PREACHY
And this is where I am at. As adults, despite our pasts, we need to be the vigilant ones and not diminish the levels of risk by wholly endorsing or marginalizing drug usage among our youth faction.
I don't want my children smoking dope and doing other drugs. If they do... it likely won't be the end of the world; however, as idealistic as it might sound... I would prefer they get their kicks doing other things.
Show off
Minute fraction of users - which means that yeah...most exercise responsiblity with it.
My life IS great, doesn't just look so. Not dying on the inside or anywhere else.
I've smoked for quite awhile, we're doing fine on all fronts. I get that not everyone can make the same choices and arrive at the same place - but let's not belittle those to do, and have - and are.
I would never say "hey kids, go smoke dope" BUT I would rather them experiment with weed than the shit I did or the shit that's out there now. The biggest problem in the high schools where I live are pills. Easier to get than weed or alcohol, in every home, cheap, and far more dangerous. Specifically, addys (adderall), bars (Xanax and other benzos), and triple c (coricidin cold & cough). I've seen too many kids OD on pills, friends of my children, my friends children and former students. And the kids see nothing wrong with pills. The withdrawal from benzos alone can kill you.
I don't want to condone the youth smoking, BUT if I had to choose, I'd rather they be potheads than barheads any day!
Again... education. The only thing we can do is outline the risks and detail the experiences of others.
And you won't get an argument from me regarding the destructive potential of alcohol. Faced with a shitty choice... I'd prefer my kids to be potheads instead of alcoholics.
And yes, it has super high THC content.....but the whole super-pot argument falls apart when you remember that like alcohol, people ingest only enough to achieve a desired effect, then stop. It's not like they would smoke a half gram of honey oil in a sitting, the same way they'd smoke a half gram joint. Get the good stuff to save your lungs, and some $$
yes, I knew what you meant by veterans. It sounded funny that you were saying that the pot is soooo crazy potent that even potheads are getting really fucked up....like it's an ultra-pure batch of black tar hitting the junkies on skid row or something
Guess I'm tired of misplaced handwringing - most people who smoke weed do just fine.
I too would like to hear more about those in the ER for pot. Is that the only factor, just smoking it?
All I ask, as with anything, is a fair and well-reasoned shake.
the best thing to do is stop... lie down in bed & ride the magical waves of super duper high cowboy land & take the entire football field width & length straight through your frickin skull as the flashing triangled colored shapes dance around you & the tractor outside your bedroom window is now a gentleman's privates
like that
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
River, ALMOST and maybe Sound garden and STP....!!!!!!
Has nothing to do with POT?!!!!
I can go on..... :?
Fine... My ex room mate smoked bath salts, and begged me to take him to the hospital. I gave him his own phone and said "dude ... call them when you are ready"
Drugs are bad... Why are you smoking Bath salts?
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce