Satan--prince of darkness or down-on-his-luck angel?

brianlux

Cosmo wrote:

Isn't most of what modern society's perception of Satan/Lucifer derived from Milton's 'Paradise Lost' and/or Dante's 'Inferno'?
Can someone point me to the story of Lucifer from the Bible?

Thanx.

Good question.

The other one I couldn't remember that is a part of that story is- What was the name of the angel that turned away from God and became the devil. Was that Lucifer? I want to say Michael but, no, that was a movie, right?

catefrances

brianlux wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

Isn't most of what modern society's perception of Satan/Lucifer derived from Milton's 'Paradise Lost' and/or Dante's 'Inferno'?
Can someone point me to the story of Lucifer from the Bible?

Thanx.

Good question.

The other one I couldn't remember that is a part of that story is- What was the name of the angel that turned away from God and became the devil. Was that Lucifer? I want to say Michael but, no, that was a movie, right?

the archangel michael led Gods forces against those of satan in the book of revelations.lucifer was a fallen angel.

this, from my KJ version of the bible

isaiah 14:12
how art thou fallen from heaven, o lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations

isaiah 14:13
for thu hast said in thine heart, i will ascend to into heaven, i will exalt my throne above the stars of God: i willsit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north


isaiah 14:14
i will ascend above the heights of clouds; i will be like the most high

hedonist

catefrances wrote:

i will be like the most high

Apologies to my religious friends, but this SO sounds like stoner-speak :P

catefrances

hedonist wrote:

catefrances wrote:

i will be like the most high

Apologies to my religious friends, but this SO sounds like stoner-speak :P

SPICOLI!!!!

brianlux

catefrances wrote:

brianlux wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

Isn't most of what modern society's perception of Satan/Lucifer derived from Milton's 'Paradise Lost' and/or Dante's 'Inferno'?
Can someone point me to the story of Lucifer from the Bible?

Thanx.

Good question.

The other one I couldn't remember that is a part of that story is- What was the name of the angel that turned away from God and became the devil. Was that Lucifer? I want to say Michael but, no, that was a movie, right?

the archangel michael led Gods forces against those of satan in the book of revelations.lucifer was a fallen angel.

this, from my KJ version of the bible

isaiah 14:12
how art thou fallen from heaven, o lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations

isaiah 14:13
for thu hast said in thine heart, i will ascend to into heaven, i will exalt my throne above the stars of God: i willsit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north


isaiah 14:14
i will ascend above the heights of clouds; i will be like the most high

Thanks for clearing that up, Catefrances. Wow- someone who still reads the King Jimmy! I remember reading that story now and wondering, "what was that dude Lucifer thinking anyway?!"

So for those of you who are contextualists (a term a sort of neo-trappist monk friend of mine came up with) rather than literalists, what is the metaphor here?

catefrances

brianlux wrote:

Thanks for clearing that up, Catefrances. Wow- someone who still reads the King Jimmy! I remember reading that story now and wondering, "what was that dude Lucifer thinking anyway?!"

So for those of you who are contextualists (a term a sort of neo-trappist monk friend of mine came up with) rather than literalists, what is the metaphor here?

the bible is full of awesome stories. and i will always choose to read awesome stories.

well as i see it, lucifer fell out of Gods good graces. he wanted more than his due(whatever that was), he forgot 'his place' in the scheme of things and was punished for it. personally i think it was petty of God but then again i have many issues with God, not the least being hes a bit of a dictator. so... what i think this story means is that one should not try to elevate oneself above God cause surely for such arrogance one will fall.

Cosmo

catefrances wrote:

lucifer was a fallen angel.
this, from my KJ version of the bible
isaiah 14:12
how art thou fallen from heaven, o lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations
isaiah 14:13
for thu hast said in thine heart, i will ascend to into heaven, i will exalt my throne above the stars of God: i willsit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north
isaiah 14:14
i will ascend above the heights of clouds; i will be like the most high

...
But, still.. the whole thing about the war for Heaven and the fallen angel... its from Milton... right?

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

lucifer was a fallen angel.
this, from my KJ version of the bible
isaiah 14:12
how art thou fallen from heaven, o lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations
isaiah 14:13
for thu hast said in thine heart, i will ascend to into heaven, i will exalt my throne above the stars of God: i willsit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north
isaiah 14:14
i will ascend above the heights of clouds; i will be like the most high

...
But, still.. the whole thing about the war for Heaven and the fallen angel... its from Milton... right?

no. i would say milton knows his bible and when it came time to write paradise lost he drew on that

revelations 12: 7-9.

and there was a war in heaven: michael and his angels fought agianst the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

and prevailed not; neither was their place found anymore in heaven.

and the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil, and satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him

SpinTheWishlist

wow, how frightening is that part of ourselves anyhow? maybe there's something to that caution (albeit religious) to be lowly

catefrances

SpinTheWishlist wrote:

wow, how frightening is that part of ourselves anyhow? maybe there's something to that caution (albeit religious) to be lowly

i think its more about being humble... and i think thats applicable if you are religious as well as if you are irreligious like me.

redrock

Lucifer was just a bit of a rebel angel with an issue with authority....

catefrances

redrock wrote:

Lucifer was just a bit of a rebel angel with an issue with authority....

:thumbup:

brianlux

redrock wrote:

Lucifer was just a bit of a rebel angel with an issue with authority....

I can see that, but my impression (I have to admit I haven't read the whole story in years) was that the issue was just as much or more about ego and power. Did not Lucifer believe he could be more powerful than God? (Maybe I should not be so lazy and just go back and read the story. )

catefrances

brianlux wrote:

redrock wrote:

Lucifer was just a bit of a rebel angel with an issue with authority....

I can see that, but my impression (I have to admit I haven't read the whole story in years) was that the issue was just as much or more about ego and power. Did not Lucifer believe he could be more powerful than God? (Maybe I should not be so lazy and just go back and read the story. )

he just didnt see why God was the be all end all, you know? why couldnt someone else run the company? God said hey you get off of my cloud and that was that. God good lucifer bad.

SpinTheWishlist

catefrances wrote:

SpinTheWishlist wrote:

wow, how frightening is that part of ourselves anyhow? maybe there's something to that caution (albeit religious) to be lowly

i think its more about being humble... and i think thats applicable if you are religious as well as if you are irreligious like me.

isn't lowly the same thing as humble, or thereabouts?
..and ye, i see at all as part of our psychological condition, irrespective of religion's claim to fame on the issue.

catefrances

SpinTheWishlist wrote:

catefrances wrote:

SpinTheWishlist wrote:

wow, how frightening is that part of ourselves anyhow? maybe there's something to that caution (albeit religious) to be lowly

i think its more about being humble... and i think thats applicable if you are religious as well as if you are irreligious like me.

isn't lowly the same thing as humble, or thereabouts?
..and ye, i see at all as part of our psychological condition, irrespective of religion's claim to fame on the issue.

probably.. but to me lowly sounds too much like inferior.

SpinTheWishlist

i'm okay with it, you get a good view from 'lowly'. it all depends on if you buy into the hype, some would see it as inferior but i don't see eye to eye with them.