legal case for drones

JimmyV

We cannot let those who choose to live outside of our society use the protections of the Constitution to murder those of us who live as part of our society.

Jason P

unsung wrote:

You don't assassinate American citizens without due process. Anyone that disagrees with that concept may as well disagree with society in general.

It may not have been by conventional means, but Al had his "due process".

The guy was a spreader of evil who convinced his lackeys to kill or try to kill Americans.

fuc 'em. World is better off without him. Society is much better off without him

unsung

JimmyV wrote:

We cannot let those who choose to live outside of our society use the protections of the Constitution to murder those of us who live as part of our society.

How many people was al-alwaki charged with killing? How many people was his 16 year old son charged with killing?

JimmyV

unsung wrote:

JimmyV wrote:

We cannot let those who choose to live outside of our society use the protections of the Constitution to murder those of us who live as part of our society.

How many people was al-alwaki charged with killing? How many people was his 16 year old son charged with killing?

How many would he have killed had he not been taken out? How many would his son? How many would be killed by the six other militants killed with his son?

unsung

So we should assassinate people now under the mere assumption that they may commit a crime?

JimmyV

unsung wrote:

So we should assassinate people now under the mere assumption that they may commit a crime?

Should we wait until they assassinate you or me? And you have no idea what kind of intelligence was gathered on these people.

I will lose no sleep because these people met their ends while aiding and abetting foreign hostiles.

unsung

Good to know that you trust this President with the ability to summarily execute people on being suspected of misdeeds.

It's still illegal, immoral, unconstitutional, and worthy of impeachment.

I guess it really is becoming Minority Report. Murder on suspicion. Frightening.

unsung

The odd thing is people like Timothy McVeigh even got trials. I guess Obama is now judge, jury, and executioner

Cosmo

unsung wrote:

The odd thing is people like Timothy McVeigh even got trials. I guess Obama is now judge, jury, and executioner

...
So... is it better that McVeigh committed the crime and killed all those people... or would it have been better to kill him prior to the crime? Remember, McVeigh was an innocent, American Citizen before the bomb went off.
...
And trust me... I understand where you are coming from. But, i also understand this isn't a black and white issue. It is complicated and there is no one simple solution.

JimmyV

unsung wrote:

Good to know that you trust this President with the ability to summarily execute people on being suspected of misdeeds.

It's still illegal, immoral, unconstitutional, and worthy of impeachment.

I guess it really is becoming Minority Report. Murder on suspicion. Frightening.

unsung wrote:

The odd thing is people like Timothy McVeigh even got trials. I guess Obama is now judge, jury, and executioner

Good to know you rather let another Tim McVeigh murder hundreds of Americans rather than stop him.

badbrains

Jason P wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

Declared war is real and legal, undeclared bombings without intelligence of an imminent threat (self defense) seems wrong to me...As I said earlier, I don't feel sorry for people who take up arms, but things like this are why I think this undeclared war on an idealism is so dangerous...too many lines get blurred.

That is a problem with fighting an enemy that isn't a governing body of a nation. How are we to fight per the rule book when the enemy observes no rules whatsoever?

It's funny how "we" decide who "our" enemy is. :fp: Or who a terrorist is. But then again, it's always easy viewing the world through American eyes...... :roll:

badbrains

JimmyV wrote:

unsung wrote:

JimmyV wrote:

We cannot let those who choose to live outside of our society use the protections of the Constitution to murder those of us who live as part of our society.

How many people was al-alwaki charged with killing? How many people was his 16 year old son charged with killing?

How many would he have killed had he not been taken out? How many would his son? How many would be killed by the six other militants killed with his son?

Not anywhere close to your LAST 2 presidents have killed that's for sure.

badbrains

JimmyV wrote:

We cannot let those who choose to live outside of our society use the protections of the Constitution to murder those of us who live as part of our society.

There is NO MORE constitution.

dancepartner

Damn! And I thought you guys were a tough bunch! I've been checking out other forums & I can easily say I like it here much better.
If we accept the use of Drones now, where does that leave our kids in the future?

unsung

JimmyV wrote:

Good to know you rather let another Tim McVeigh murder hundreds of Americans rather than stop him.

That's one of the dumber things I've seen posted here. Nowhere have I advocated for allowing someone to kill people, in fact I've been arguing the exact opposite. You do not MURDER people based on the possibility that they might commit a crime, especially when you are the PRESIDENT!

Have you read NDAA? Do you know that once the American countryside is declared a battlefield that anyone can be held without charges or trial indefinitely for associating with al-Qaeda or other associated groups? What associated groups? The DHS has already declared Constitutionalists and preppers as a extreme group.

Executing a citizen without charges goes against the very basis for why this country was founded. Once we accept that as the norm we can never go back; we become savages.

JimmyV

unsung wrote:

JimmyV wrote:

Good to know you rather let another Tim McVeigh murder hundreds of Americans rather than stop him.

That's one of the dumber things I've seen posted here. Nowhere have I advocated for allowing someone to kill people, in fact I've been arguing the exact opposite. You do not MURDER people based on the possibility that they might commit a crime, especially when you are the PRESIDENT!

Have you read NDAA? Do you know that once the American countryside is declared a battlefield that anyone can be held without charges or trial indefinitely for associating with al-Qaeda or other associated groups? What associated groups? The DHS has already declared Constitutionalists and preppers as a extreme group.

Executing a citizen without charges goes against the very basis for why this country was founded. Once we accept that as the norm we can never go back; we become savages.

Actually it is not so please come down off your soapbox. We were discussing al-alwaki and you shifted to Tim McVeigh, pretending they are the same. They are not. McVeigh was operating within the United States and there were other options for dealing with him. Those options did not exist for al-alwaki.

The American countryside is not about to be declared a battlefield. That is fearmongering at its most blatant.

I'll say this again since it has been glossed over and distorted by Tim McVeigh and DHS taking over the countryside: Americans who leave the United States to assist Al-Qaeda or any terrorist organization plot to kill other Americans should not be able to use the constitution as protection to carry out those plans. I said early on in this thread that the need to do this should be unthinkable. Unfortunately it is not.

unsung

An American citizen is an American citizen, regardless of their location.

What crimes were they charged with?

pj1981

I don't think anyone thinks the countryside is about to become a battlefield,
I think the word was once.
The actions taken today set a precedence and could be used very differently for those in power
10, 15, 20 years from now. Controlling government or those in power is important because who's best interest do they really have at heart? We can't say for sure.
I see government/power using the guise of protecting us, that could very well be used one day to control us, of course with the best interests of itself. We are the worker bees after all,
we are replaceable, the hive must always make honey ... money that is.

JimmyV

Yep, arresting someone in Yemen is exactly the same as arresting someone in Oklahoma. No difference at all. Just as easy as pie. One pair of FBI agents should be able to do it.

I also said earlier that none of us knows what kind of intelligence had been gathered before these poor innocent victims were targeted. I could not care less that no charges were filed.

JimmyV

pj1981 wrote:

I don't think anyone thinks the countryside is about to become a battlefield,
I think the word was once.
The actions taken today set a precedence and could be used very differently for those in power
10, 15, 20 years from now. Controlling government or those in power is important because who's best interest do they really have at heart? We can't say for sure.
I see government/power using the guise of protecting us, that could very well be used one day to control us, of course with the best interests of itself. We are the worker bees after all,
we are replaceable, the hive must always make honey ... money that is.

I agree that there are legitimate concerns down the road. Not guarantees that this power will ever be abused, just possibilities. I still feel safer knowing we are eliminating these threats today.