*** 1948 * 1949 * 1960 * 2017 * 2024...YOUR SUPER BOWL CHAMPIONS: THE PHILADELPHIA EAGLES ***
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I used three and I explained why. Those are the three most universally agreed upon stats which people use to grade the position. I mean, what other stats would you like me to use? Happy to oblige.pjhawks said:
i love how you say cherry picked stats...and you use 2 stats to rate him. too funny.The Juggler said:Okay, Reuben Frank. Nice article from a whole year ago. Nice cherry picked stats by Reub, as well.
My point remains--you have to compare him to his peers. I said he was great in 17, good in 18, mediocre in 16 and 19, and horrible in 20. Here is where he ranked in terms of rating, qbr, and comp % those years (I used these stats since they're the most general to guage a qb in, other ones are mostly in line with these as well):
2016: rating- 25th, qbr-24th, comp %-18th (I said mediocre, you could actually argue bad)
2017: rating- 4th, qbr- 1st, comp %-24th (I said great, yup- accurate)
2018: rating- 7th, qbr-12th, comp %- 3d (I said good, yup-accurate)
2019: rating- 13th, qbr- 11th, comp %-17th (I said mediocre, yup-accurate)
2020: rating- 31st, qbr-28th, comp %- 32nd (I said horrible- yup-accurate)
16- mediocre/bad
17- great
18- good
19- mediocre
20- horrible
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2020/passing.htm
I'd say for what they gave up to get him and what they're paying him, he needs to regularly be at least as good as he was in 2018 to at least be considered a true franchise quarterback. Obviously, he's not living up to expectations, despite your Reuben Frank article from 12 months ago.
here is how I'd grade his 5 years.
2016 mediocre but a rookie - so i'd grade on a curve for being a rookie and say very good
2017 - well yea great
2018 - good
2019 - mediocre with an incredibly bad lineup around him - led them to the playoffs with crap so i'd grade on a curve and say good
2020 - unbelievably bad
But the bottom line is he was not on some hall of fame-ish path prior to this season as you previously implied. Yet now, you somehow appear to mostly agree with how I've gauged him so I don't see the point in continuing this back and forth. lolPost edited by The Juggler onwww.myspace.com0 -
This is my favorite situation/argument in Philly sports in a long time. Just know I am following along on all of this, on this board and in general, with a big cheese smile.0
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Lol. You are 5-7 with a -34 point differential and your quarterback is Daniel Jones.Cliffy6745 said:This is my favorite situation/argument in Philly sports in a long time. Just know I am following along on all of this, on this board and in general, with a big cheese smile.www.myspace.com0 -
Actually Colt McCoyThe Juggler said:
Lol. You are 5-7 with a -34 point differential and your quarterback is Daniel Jones.Cliffy6745 said:This is my favorite situation/argument in Philly sports in a long time. Just know I am following along on all of this, on this board and in general, with a big cheese smile.
This weekend we rock Portland0 -
Giants were supposed to stink and Danny ain't Carson this year.The Juggler said:
Lol. You are 5-7 with a -34 point differential and your quarterback is Daniel Jones.Cliffy6745 said:This is my favorite situation/argument in Philly sports in a long time. Just know I am following along on all of this, on this board and in general, with a big cheese smile.0 -
How good did you think the Eagles were going to be? If healthy, they were probably an 8 or 9 win team. And they're far from healthy.Cliffy6745 said:
Giants were supposed to stink and Danny ain't Carson this year.The Juggler said:
Lol. You are 5-7 with a -34 point differential and your quarterback is Daniel Jones.Cliffy6745 said:This is my favorite situation/argument in Philly sports in a long time. Just know I am following along on all of this, on this board and in general, with a big cheese smile.
Also, as bad as Wentz has been, Daniel Jones is....well, Daniel Jones
www.myspace.com0 -
we could be worse off...we could have taken a running back with the 2nd pick instead of a QB.Cliffy6745 said:This is my favorite situation/argument in Philly sports in a long time. Just know I am following along on all of this, on this board and in general, with a big cheese smile.0 -
Darnold stinks and saquon is the man. No issues from mepjhawks said:
we could be worse off...we could have taken a running back with the 2nd pick instead of a QB.Cliffy6745 said:This is my favorite situation/argument in Philly sports in a long time. Just know I am following along on all of this, on this board and in general, with a big cheese smile.0 -
What I see here is that a 2nd year QB out of Duke is having a better yeah than your $130 million manThe Juggler said:
How good did you think the Eagles were going to be? If healthy, they were probably an 8 or 9 win team. And they're far from healthy.Cliffy6745 said:
Giants were supposed to stink and Danny ain't Carson this year.The Juggler said:
Lol. You are 5-7 with a -34 point differential and your quarterback is Daniel Jones.Cliffy6745 said:This is my favorite situation/argument in Philly sports in a long time. Just know I am following along on all of this, on this board and in general, with a big cheese smile.
Also, as bad as Wentz has been, Daniel Jones is....well, Daniel Jones0 -
Fair point. I see two of the worst qb's in the league this year on two of the worst teams. Smile away, Cliff!Cliffy6745 said:
What I see here is that a 2nd year QB out of Duke is having a better yeah than your $130 million manThe Juggler said:
How good did you think the Eagles were going to be? If healthy, they were probably an 8 or 9 win team. And they're far from healthy.Cliffy6745 said:
Giants were supposed to stink and Danny ain't Carson this year.The Juggler said:
Lol. You are 5-7 with a -34 point differential and your quarterback is Daniel Jones.Cliffy6745 said:This is my favorite situation/argument in Philly sports in a long time. Just know I am following along on all of this, on this board and in general, with a big cheese smile.
Also, as bad as Wentz has been, Daniel Jones is....well, Daniel Joneswww.myspace.com0 -
Saquon is a man with a torn up knee in a position that the average career is like 3 years. Saquon say high to Zeke...or Todd Gurley...where high level play goes quickly.Cliffy6745 said:
Darnold stinks and saquon is the man. No issues from mepjhawks said:
we could be worse off...we could have taken a running back with the 2nd pick instead of a QB.Cliffy6745 said:This is my favorite situation/argument in Philly sports in a long time. Just know I am following along on all of this, on this board and in general, with a big cheese smile.0 -
This is fair...continuing to smile.The Juggler said:
Fair point. I see two of the worst qb's in the league this year on two of the worst teams. Smile away, Cliff!Cliffy6745 said:
What I see here is that a 2nd year QB out of Duke is having a better yeah than your $130 million manThe Juggler said:
How good did you think the Eagles were going to be? If healthy, they were probably an 8 or 9 win team. And they're far from healthy.Cliffy6745 said:
Giants were supposed to stink and Danny ain't Carson this year.The Juggler said:
Lol. You are 5-7 with a -34 point differential and your quarterback is Daniel Jones.Cliffy6745 said:This is my favorite situation/argument in Philly sports in a long time. Just know I am following along on all of this, on this board and in general, with a big cheese smile.
Also, as bad as Wentz has been, Daniel Jones is....well, Daniel Jones0 -
All the logic in the world won't get me upset at the Giants picking Saquon. He could never play another down.pjhawks said:
Saquon is a man with a torn up knee in a position that the average career is like 3 years. Saquon say high to Zeke...or Todd Gurley...where high level play goes quickly.Cliffy6745 said:
Darnold stinks and saquon is the man. No issues from mepjhawks said:
we could be worse off...we could have taken a running back with the 2nd pick instead of a QB.Cliffy6745 said:This is my favorite situation/argument in Philly sports in a long time. Just know I am following along on all of this, on this board and in general, with a big cheese smile.0 -
Gotta support those Penn Staters - I understand. I've heard from friends of mine son that knew him a bit at Penn State that he is a good dude.Cliffy6745 said:
All the logic in the world won't get me upset at the Giants picking Saquon. He could never play another down.pjhawks said:
Saquon is a man with a torn up knee in a position that the average career is like 3 years. Saquon say high to Zeke...or Todd Gurley...where high level play goes quickly.Cliffy6745 said:
Darnold stinks and saquon is the man. No issues from mepjhawks said:
we could be worse off...we could have taken a running back with the 2nd pick instead of a QB.Cliffy6745 said:This is my favorite situation/argument in Philly sports in a long time. Just know I am following along on all of this, on this board and in general, with a big cheese smile.0 -
There really is no reason to read anything but The Athletic:
https://theathletic.com/2248638/2020/12/09/carson-wentz-benched-trade-options
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I gotta renew. Old credit card expired and have been too lazy to submit the new info. Is this Mr. Kapadia again?Jearlpam0925 said:There really is no reason to read anything but The Athletic:
https://theathletic.com/2248638/2020/12/09/carson-wentz-benched-trade-optionswww.myspace.com0 -
Mike Sando, speaking to people around the league about the situation:
Nineteen months after signing Carson Wentz to a team-record $128 million extension, the Philadelphia Eagles are benching their franchise quarterback for a rookie whose salary ranks 22nd on the team. Newly anointed starter Jalen Hurts is the third-highest-paid Jalen on the roster, behind safety Jalen Mills and receiver Jalen Reagor. This change marks a shocking pivot away from where the Eagles planned to be when they invested so much in Wentz. It’s also the most tangible indicator Wentz might not be long for Philly.
Below we will explore through the minds of NFL coaches and executives whether the Eagles should trade Wentz, what they might get in return, whether benching Wentz was the right move, which other notable NFL quarterbacks are the most interesting comps for Wentz, and much more, including a conspiracy theory that made a coach laugh out loud.
1. Should the Eagles trade Wentz?
“I don’t think so,” a former general manager said. “They gotta hang in there. He’s not playing well, he’s in a slump, but you go back and watch the tape, there are some good games. The talent is there. You just gotta figure out what’s wrong. He was really good and now the throws are late, the wrong guy and whatever, but I think the fact that he could do it once should mean he can do it again. You just have to get it out of him, and get the right people around him.”
There’s time. Players cannot be traded until March. The Eagles will gather information on Hurts for however long the rookie remains in the lineup.
“With the opt-outs and lack of practice, I wouldn’t make any major decisions based upon what happens this year,” an exec said. “Unless I had some inside information about something that is really not fixable that might be affecting him, I would just chalk this up to, ‘You know what, we are going to really evaluate stuff in the offseason and get this right because we know we have somebody here who has got all the tools and who has done it before.’ ”
If Hurts plays well, the Eagles could wind up having the highest-paid backup in NFL history. If Hurts plays poorly, the scrutiny could come off Wentz to some degree, in that the issues on offense could appear more systemic.
“Anybody who is going to take the head coaching job there is probably going to say Carson is salvageable,” another exec said. “You don’t go from being a good starter to a backup in a year. I think their best decision is, ‘We will keep Carson for a year and hope he gets back to himself’ unless someone wants to offer a trade, but I just think that is going to be really hard for them to admit (that Wentz is no longer viable).”
Without much question, Wentz provides the most talented option.
“Where are you going to find that big of a body with that many starts with that much successful tape?” a coach said. “Do you think the Bears would sign him if he was available over Nick Foles? You think the Patriots would have signed him instead of Cam Newton if he was available on Aug. 1?”
2. What could the Eagles get for Wentz if they did trade him?
“I don’t think anybody is going to give up a whole lot for him. and when I say a whole lot, I think a one (first-round pick) is reasonable,” an exec said.
Even after a down 2019 season, Wentz polled 11th among veteran starting quarterbacks in voting among 50 coaches and evaluators for my 2020 Quarterback Tiers project. That put him sixth out of nine quarterbacks in Tier 2, between Matt Ryan and Dak Prescott.
“If you are Indy and your head coach was with Wentz in Philly, do you give up a second and a fifth for Wentz, or do you roll the dice and just build through the draft?” an evaluator said. “They have the best O-line in football. Draft one, get another receiver and you have a chance to have a heckuva offense.”
There will be other options at the position, some of them cheaper than Wentz.
“I don’t think Philly would have any trouble trading Carson,” an exec said. “I just don’t know what they would get for him. He would require a lot of film study and I would try to get some inside information from people I knew on the Eagles’ staff to figure out what the hell is happening here, because this is dropping-off-a-cliff kind of stuff.”
Wentz has never played as well as Kurt Warner played at Warner’s peak with the St. Louis Rams two decades ago, but Warner does provide an interesting comparison. He went from MVP status with the Rams to injured backup to bridge starter with the New York Giants and Arizona Cardinals before returning to elite status. Wentz was an MVP candidate during the Eagles’ 2017 Super Bowl season.
“I still think Wentz can play,” an offensive coach who studied Wentz in the 2016 draft said. “I just think their offense, if you track the way it has gone, it has gotten worse each year. Maybe when Frank Reich was there, he was able to influence it, but that has gone away.”
One unconventional trade scenario would involve the Eagles reaching agreement on a trade to be executed in June, when league accounting rules allow teams to defer salary-cap implications. The Eagles would not get draft compensation in 2021 under such a scenario.
“If you are Philly, maybe you are fine with that,” an exec said. “Someone gives you a two (second-round pick) in 2022. If you are trading him to someone like Frank Reich, who knows him, maybe they are OK with that. Or, Philly pays the $15 million (in guaranteed salary for 2022) and it’s a cap debacle, but they get more in return.”
3. Are there cap or cash implications that could limit the Eagles’ options in a trade?
The biggest cap complication for 2021 has nothing to do with the Eagles or Wentz. It stems from pandemic-induced revenue shortfalls that threaten cap allotments. The Eagles’ cap situation is one of the NFL’s worst after the team doubled down on some aging players to keep open a championship window that, in retrospect, closed some time ago. Teams in Philly’s situation sometimes convert base salaries to signing bonuses for their highly paid quarterbacks, creating flexibility in the short term at the expense of future caps. That would not make sense for the Eagles if Wentz suddenly were not in their plans.
“They were probably planning on converting Wentz and now people are talking about trading him,” an exec said. “That puts a whole wrench into your cap planning. If they trade Wentz, maybe they convert a guy like (Darius) Slay instead and maybe (Javon) Hargrave and just keep dealing with that in 2022. I don’t know.”
Trading Wentz after June 1 would provide significant cap relief for 2021, but the timing — well after free agency — would be less than ideal.
Wentz’s contract is scheduled to count more than $30 million against the Eagles’ cap whether or not he’s on the roster. While conventional wisdom suggests a team might resist having so much cap space dedicated to a player no longer on the roster, that line of thinking is increasingly outdated. The Pittsburgh Steelers carried more than $21 million in so-called dead money for receiver Antonio Brown after trading him to the Raiders. They saved cash and moved on from a player they no longer wanted on the roster.
By trading Wentz, Philly would save $25 million in 2021 cash while escaping $15 million in 2022 salary that will become fully guaranteed if Wentz is on the roster on the third day of the 2021 league year.
“There is no problem for the Eagles trading him with regard to the cap,” a longtime team contract negotiator said. “The factor would be with regard to the emotional attachment they have for the player, and the organizational commitment apart from the money.”
4. Are there cap or cash implications that could dissuade teams from acquiring Wentz?
Wentz’s contract would be relatively easy to acquire for teams willing to make a two-year commitment. Wentz is due to receive a guaranteed $10 million roster bonus on the third day of the 2021 league year. He has a $22 million salary in 2022, with $15 million of that locking in at the same time the roster bonus is due. The presence of that pending $15 million guarantee is important. In 2016, Denver decided against acquiring Colin Kaepernick from San Francisco because a similar guarantee would have effectively forced the Broncos to anoint Kaepernick as their unquestioned starter. Any team acquiring Wentz’s contract as-is would similarly be anointing him as its starter, for practical purposes.
“The other team would likely have to say, ‘We are willing to commit ourselves to him for two seasons at $47 million,’ which is reasonable for a starting quarterback,” an exec said, “but understanding that if things go really badly the first year, they are stuck with $15 million one way or another the next year.”
5. Given the Eagles’ aging and expensive roster, should they hit the reset button and start over?
The Eagles were facing a roster reckoning even if Wentz and the offense had functioned at a high level this season, and even if the salary cap were expected to expand instead of contract. A cap manager from another team struggled to find enough players to release for Philly to comply with the projected $175 million cap for next season.
“Holy shit,” the cap manager said at one point.
“They are screwed in general,” he said a few moments later.
Finally: “This is a bear.”
“I would advocate tearing it all down and starting over,” a top exec from another team said. “Do you do that with Carson? Do you trade Carson and play Hurts for a year and see where it goes because he can be a run-around guy? It all depends who you hire as head coach.”
6. Are the Eagles handling this situation the right way?
“It’s almost never done right and it’s always picked apart,” a defensive coach said, “except for Andy Reid.”
The Reid-coached 2017 Kansas City Chiefs drafted Patrick Mahomes in the spring, but stuck with veteran starter Alex Smith until the final game of the regular season. Along the way, Smith and the offense slumped badly. The team lost six of seven games at one point. Smith tossed three touchdown passes with four interceptions during a three-game streak in which Kansas City scored 17, nine and 10 points and lost all three. Instead of benching Smith and deviating from the long-term plan for Mahomes, Reid benched himself as the play caller, handing those duties to assistant Matt Nagy. The Chiefs then scored 31, 26, 30 and 29 points over their next four games before giving Mahomes his first start in Week 17. The Chiefs then transitioned to Mahomes the next season.
The Eagles are not nearly as talented as those Chiefs. Hurts does not resemble Mahomes. But the point is, Kansas City had a clear plan and stuck to it, even when the losses piled up. The Eagles’ plan is less clear.
“I know there’s a large sentiment that once you make this move, you can’t go back,” an evaluator said. “I don’t personally buy that. It depends on the people. It’s been going so bad for this guy, you can make a case that taking a step back for a couple weeks may not be the worst thing for him. It’s risky for the club because if Hurts plays really well, now you have the most expensive backup in the history of the sport, and what do you do with him? I do think if Hurts struggles, it takes the pressure off of Wentz.”
The 2006 Dallas Cowboys had lost two of three games when coach Bill Parcells benched 14th-year veteran Drew Bledsoe, a player Parcells had drafted No. 1 overall while with New England, for the unproven Tony Romo. Unlike Hurts, Romo had years in the Cowboys’ system. He had shined in preseason. Parcells had anointed him. There was buzz around Romo at that time. The Eagles haven’t implemented a coherent on-field plan for Hurts to this point, sprinkling him into the offense with underwhelming results and no panache.
“Maybe I’m a Carson truther, but to me, he isn’t getting enough help and this roster is bad and that needs to be fixed,” an exec said. “Shame on them for putting Hurts out there because that screws everything up. Hurts did not play well enough on Sunday to earn the starting job. If you look at teams that have dealt with quarterback situations in the past, they don’t do what Philly did.”
7. There could be strategic reasons for the Eagles to bench Wentz, although those require speculation.
“I presume they know they are going to fire their coach and so they are just saving Carson the pounding,” an exec said.
This theory made a former head coach chuckle admiringly.
“The conspiracy theory of playing Hurts to protect Wentz, knowing you are going to change the coach, is brilliant,” this coach said. “Whether it’s true or not, it’s brilliant. I think the coach is trying to save his job, and what is the great way of doing that? Change quarterbacks. Blame it on Wentz.”
Or, bench a player who is struggling.
“When you buy into the whole program that the quarterback has to be the face of the franchise, you are setting it up for your own complications,” an exec said. “Everyone says, ‘How can you pay him $128 million and start someone else?’ The answer is, ineffective play.”
The Eagles in Week 14 face the New Orleans Saints, owners of the NFL’s top-ranked defense by expected points added (EPA) over their past six games. Perhaps Wentz could use the down week to recalibrate, then return against, say, Arizona the following week.
“When you drafted Jalen Hurts in the second round, you were asking for this,” a top agent said. “At some point, when you have a quarterback you have committed to, give him weapons, give him help. Instead of giving him help, you drafted a guy to sit behind him that people want to see play. You asked for it.”
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A huge risk with his injury history to tradeI miss igotid880
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Jason Kelce is a treasure and an honest man although Juggler will disagree with his assessment of Wentz.0
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lol...did you expect Kelce to come out and rip Carson?pjhawks said:Jason Kelce is a treasure and an honest man although Juggler will disagree with his assessment of Wentz.www.myspace.com0
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