Consumerism is out of control

riotgrl

redrock wrote:

Lots of good points in this thread. I'd like to take just three words out of the title: "out of control".

Consumerism, as others said, is a necessity in our current world. Not a bad thing at a 'normal' level. Creates jobs, makes our lives a bit easier than our grand-parents' lives (or before) with say, washing machine, dryer - goods we 'want' as a consumer, etc.

Of course we all like 'stuff' - been since beginning of mankind. But is has come to a level that is damaging to us, as beings and to the planet as several posters have mentioned (pollution, waste, etc). Damage to the planet is obvious but damage to 'us' maybe not so obvious. The by-product of this excess of consumerism (ie want/need/do whatever to get..) has a nefast influence on humankind. Greed, not being satisfied, wanting at whatever cost even maybe leading to crime, etc. We lose track of real values.

riotgrl wrote:

Capitalism is our motivation because we have been taught to like "stuff" since we were born.

We are marketing people's dreams - gullible and way too eager to possess. An iPhone (or whatever) comes out? Must have it. Another one coming out 6 months later with a little tweak to make it different? Sold - I want it - throw away the other one. Same with everything else. Some people buy new cars/computers/phones, etc. every year because they want and they can (not always though as some will go into debt for this). And this not automatically to 'keep up with the Jones'' but also to try and satisfy a craving, a 'something' that we don't really understand.

I see where you're coming from riotgrl when you ), speak of communal/collective mentality (and not living in a commune or suburbs, I gather!). I guess a certain sense of belonging (for lack of better word) - to humankind, to the earth/nature 'calms'/may remove the urge to 'buy' to fill a need - less retail therapy.

Commerce, consumerism and capitalism are necessary 'evils' (if one wants to see it that way). They are necessary to keep us going - no doubt. Turning the clocks back is not really possible. But looking forward doesn't have to be the same ol' thing (or worse).

Education is the key, I believe. Teach our kids it's not necessary. Show our kids how 'the other half' live without all these 'things'. See the whole picture - understand the impact.

Thank you redrock, you stated my views far more eloquently than I did previously. I believe that we have moved so far away from what is good for us that I do see consumerism and capitalism as wrong/bad/evil whatever one wants to call it. I am just as guilty of wanting and buying stuff as anyone. However, the longer I am around the more I realize that these things are substitutes for the things I really want and need. I am, personally, reading and studying more on this subject so I can find a level of understanding within myself about how to go forward, how to make peace with a world that I think diminishes us as humans. As you state, we cannot go backwards, so how do I go forward? I would love it if the suburb I live in was a true community but it is not. I would love it if the city I lived in was a true community but it is not. To me, community means we live and work together for a common goal. And that goal is something that benefits all of us in the community.

Perhaps a definition of community is in order:

In a seminal 1986 study, McMillan and Chavis identify four elements of "sense of community": 1) membership, 2) influence, 3) integration and fulfillment of needs, and 4) shared emotional connection. They give the following example of the interplay between these factors:

Someone puts an announcement on the dormitory bulletin board about the formation of an intramural dormitory basketball team. People attend the organizational meeting as strangers out of their individual needs (integration and fulfillment of needs). The team is bound by place of residence (membership boundaries are set) and spends time together in practice (the contact hypothesis). They play a game and win (successful shared valent event). While playing, members exert energy on behalf of the team (personal investment in the group). As the team continues to win, team members become recognized and congratulated (gaining honor and status for being members), Influencing new members to join and continue to do the same. Someone suggests that they all buy matching shirts and shoes (common symbols) and they do so (influence).[9]

I get some of these things from my involvement in multiple organziations but not from ONE place which is what I would like, in an ideal world

Jeanwah

redrock wrote:

I don't believe there is anything wrong with wanting as opposed to just needing. Assuming it's within our means, we all have 'useless' things or one too many little black dresses. But society as a whole has become way too obsessed with wanting and owning for the sake of it - because they can.

It comes at a psychological price too. I know quite a few people (and from what I've read, it's becoming an epidemic) who don't know how to be happy and have forgotten what truly makes them happy, so they search for happiness in the next purchase. The thrill of shopping and nailing down that purchase makes an awful lot of people think that that "thing" will make them happy. And of course it doesn't. Until the next item falls on their radar and the cycle happens all over again.

hedonist

Jeanwah wrote:

redrock wrote:

I don't believe there is anything wrong with wanting as opposed to just needing. Assuming it's within our means, we all have 'useless' things or one too many little black dresses. But society as a whole has become way too obsessed with wanting and owning for the sake of it - because they can.

It comes at a psychological price too. I know quite a few people (and from what I've read, it's becoming an epidemic) who don't know how to be happy and have forgotten what truly makes them happy, so they search for happiness in the next purchase. The thrill of shopping and nailing down that purchase makes an awful lot of people think that that "thing" will make them happy. And of course it doesn't. Until the next item falls on their radar and the cycle happens all over again.

I don't disagree with either of you. Common sense + responsibility...and no, some indulgences now and then don't hurt either. I too partake at times, but try not to be guided by it.

"tell me that you want those kind of things
that money just can't buy"

brianlux

Jeanwah wrote:

redrock wrote:

I don't believe there is anything wrong with wanting as opposed to just needing. Assuming it's within our means, we all have 'useless' things or one too many little black dresses. But society as a whole has become way too obsessed with wanting and owning for the sake of it - because they can.

It comes at a psychological price too. I know quite a few people (and from what I've read, it's becoming an epidemic) who don't know how to be happy and have forgotten what truly makes them happy, so they search for happiness in the next purchase. The thrill of shopping and nailing down that purchase makes an awful lot of people think that that "thing" will make them happy. And of course it doesn't. Until the next item falls on their radar and the cycle happens all over again.

I've read the same, Jeanwah. In fact at least three different books I've read this year talked about tribal societies in general being much happier than ours and in those societies, consumerism is a very, very small part of their life style.

Jeanwah

hedonist wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

redrock wrote:

I don't believe there is anything wrong with wanting as opposed to just needing. Assuming it's within our means, we all have 'useless' things or one too many little black dresses. But society as a whole has become way too obsessed with wanting and owning for the sake of it - because they can.

It comes at a psychological price too. I know quite a few people (and from what I've read, it's becoming an epidemic) who don't know how to be happy and have forgotten what truly makes them happy, so they search for happiness in the next purchase. The thrill of shopping and nailing down that purchase makes an awful lot of people think that that "thing" will make them happy. And of course it doesn't. Until the next item falls on their radar and the cycle happens all over again.

I don't disagree with either of you. Common sense + responsibility...and no, some indulgences now and then don't hurt either. I too partake at times, but try not to be guided by it.

"tell me that you want those kind of things
that money just can't buy"

Yeah, I admit, that there are some things that I can't help but indulge on, and I don't think there's much wrong with that as long as it's not often. I actually argue with myself in the store... "Do I really need this? No, put it back, you don't have enough money anyway." Usually, I tell myself that if it's something I really want, I'll come back and get it. Most of the time, I forget.

It's a loss of hobbies and outside interests. People who are focused on "things" to make them happy don't have much in regards to hobbies or other things they may be interested it. Or they've forgotten what activities make them happy. So they go broke in the search of finding that product that will make happy.

riotgrl

pandora wrote:

riotgrl wrote:

You and I are not like-minded from what I have seen of your posts, And I don't believe that I am like-minded with ALL from here but I believe that many here are open minded and willing to discuss a wide range of topics without being narrow minded - that is how some here are like minded and what I expected from some here on the forum.

Capitalism is our motivation because we have been taught to like "stuff" since we were born. This need to like stuff for the sake of liking stuff was an effort to keep up with the Joneses that was perpetrated by the baby boomers beginning in the 60s. For the first time in Amerian history there was a large middle class who could aspire to being the Joneses if only they could get lots and lots of stuff. As Jeanwah said in another post, the US consumes and throws away more stuff than any other nation. We are a culture that throws away rather than reusing, reducing or making do, with the exception of a few people.

As for communal living, the suburbs ain't it. That's as far from communal living as you can get. Check out the documentary Sprawling from Grace that outlines the real and serious consequences of living this unsustainable lifestyle. Or perhaps you can read some James Kunstler, he has some really interesting ideas about how suburban living is part of the problems we are experiencing here in the US.

Gee I have never been called narrow minded in such a back handed way
sweet! now we see your heart and judgement.

Yes we have established keeping up with the Joneses and the 60's
when you may have just been a twinkle in your Dads eye... yes?
I got all the stuff those were wonderful years.

I still got some of that stuff and you know what ...
these are cherished greatly because they were hand picked by loved ones
who have left this world.
Really Big Picture.... not of this world.
Guess some stuff is ok and cool, right ????

My post was tongue in cheek... do you understand tongue in cheek?
Yes I know the burbs aren't communal living. Alrighty then.
But please don't put me in a commune with you
more tongue in cheek not to be taken seriously.

One thing in common we both consume Pearl Jam probably as much as we can
and that is one of the cool things.

I think it's time to limit one child per family... speaking of sustainable... what you say?
Cause I really don't think people will stop consuming anytime soon.
Kidding again.

I was not calling you narrow-minded, not directly nor in a back-handed manner. I stated that I came here knowing that some would be less open-minded than others and that I felt many PJ fans would be open-minded although not all. If I was unclear, then I would think simply asking me what I meant would have been a way to clear up confusion.

Jeanwah

brianlux wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

redrock wrote:

I don't believe there is anything wrong with wanting as opposed to just needing. Assuming it's within our means, we all have 'useless' things or one too many little black dresses. But society as a whole has become way too obsessed with wanting and owning for the sake of it - because they can.

It comes at a psychological price too. I know quite a few people (and from what I've read, it's becoming an epidemic) who don't know how to be happy and have forgotten what truly makes them happy, so they search for happiness in the next purchase. The thrill of shopping and nailing down that purchase makes an awful lot of people think that that "thing" will make them happy. And of course it doesn't. Until the next item falls on their radar and the cycle happens all over again.

I've read the same, Jeanwah. In fact at least three different books I've read this year talked about tribal societies in general being much happier than ours and in those societies, consumerism is a very, very small part of their life style.

Interesting, Brian! It all comes down to expectations really. America pays attention to the media (which they shouldn't). The media tells them to buy that new iphone, that everyone will have it, and you need one too. So of course the expectation is to own an iphone or similar. A combination of what's expected of us as a society, fitting in, seeing how "happy" Joe Schmo is with his iphone, expectations that I'll be as happy as Joe Schmo if I had an iphone, etc. etc. It's a bad cycle, but with a little critical thinking, responsibility, and caring less what "everyone else has", mindless consumerism won't get the best of everyone.

Where are these tribal societies?

pandora

riotgrl wrote:

pandora wrote:

riotgrl wrote:

You and I are not like-minded from what I have seen of your posts, And I don't believe that I am like-minded with ALL from here but I believe that many here are open minded and willing to discuss a wide range of topics without being narrow minded - that is how some here are like minded and what I expected from some here on the forum.

Capitalism is our motivation because we have been taught to like "stuff" since we were born. This need to like stuff for the sake of liking stuff was an effort to keep up with the Joneses that was perpetrated by the baby boomers beginning in the 60s. For the first time in Amerian history there was a large middle class who could aspire to being the Joneses if only they could get lots and lots of stuff. As Jeanwah said in another post, the US consumes and throws away more stuff than any other nation. We are a culture that throws away rather than reusing, reducing or making do, with the exception of a few people.

As for communal living, the suburbs ain't it. That's as far from communal living as you can get. Check out the documentary Sprawling from Grace that outlines the real and serious consequences of living this unsustainable lifestyle. Or perhaps you can read some James Kunstler, he has some really interesting ideas about how suburban living is part of the problems we are experiencing here in the US.

Gee I have never been called narrow minded in such a back handed way
sweet! now we see your heart and judgement.

Yes we have established keeping up with the Joneses and the 60's
when you may have just been a twinkle in your Dads eye... yes?
I got all the stuff those were wonderful years.

I still got some of that stuff and you know what ...
these are cherished greatly because they were hand picked by loved ones
who have left this world.
Really Big Picture.... not of this world.
Guess some stuff is ok and cool, right ????

My post was tongue in cheek... do you understand tongue in cheek?
Yes I know the burbs aren't communal living. Alrighty then.
But please don't put me in a commune with you
more tongue in cheek not to be taken seriously.

One thing in common we both consume Pearl Jam probably as much as we can
and that is one of the cool things.

I think it's time to limit one child per family... speaking of sustainable... what you say?
Cause I really don't think people will stop consuming anytime soon.
Kidding again.

I was not calling you narrow-minded, not directly nor in a back-handed manner. I stated that I came here knowing that some would be less open-minded than others and that I felt many PJ fans would be open-minded although not all. If I was unclear, then I would think simply asking me what I meant would have been a way to clear up confusion.

I didn't find your wording the least bit unclear nor confusing.

Can you please though define open minded as you see it and in which cases
people here are not being open minded pertaining to the thread topic.

That is shoppers lining up at all hours for Ikea merchandise with a buy buy buy attitude
and the resulting discussion of commercialism, capitalism, consumerism.

Thanks

pandora

Just heard on the radio the hot choices for Christmas gifts for the kids this year.
Of course all the new technology with prices higher for one item than
I would spend on an entire Christmas for the family.

So how are people affording all this? So many on aid, food stamps, unemployment,
with looming tax hikes, cuts on top of job insecurity.

The radio also said sold outs are now common
and people are resorting to paying hundreds more than retail from private sellers.
Hmmm... these private sellers, savvy.

pandora

Those here speaking in masses, about all society, are you forgetting that each individual
is making a decision, often based in what they like and need not always just want?
In troubled times as these, we know purchases, even the smallest, can be uplifting
as is gift giving.
Those excited about the Ikea store, the Op found it sickening
and disgusting. It would never occur to me to be so upset by families going to shop
and choosing to do this. Bundling up, being together, making memories
in the cold.

Now if someone beat somebody up over a piece of furniture
I'd probably have a few choice words of judgement towards them but
otherwise live and let live.

Change the world? take a look at the "man in the mirror"
and let others find their way without so much bitching ...
bitching never solved anything quite the contrary.

I bet there were many happy faces there that evening, albeit rosy ...
them there Northeners they can take it
unfortunately I am now a wuss.

redrock

brianlux wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

It comes at a psychological price too. I know quite a few people (and from what I've read, it's becoming an epidemic) who don't know how to be happy and have forgotten what truly makes them happy, so they search for happiness in the next purchase. The thrill of shopping and nailing down that purchase makes an awful lot of people think that that "thing" will make them happy. And of course it doesn't. Until the next item falls on their radar and the cycle happens all over again.

I've read the same, Jeanwah. In fact at least three different books I've read this year talked about tribal societies in general being much happier than ours and in those societies, consumerism is a very, very small part of their life style.

There are a few threads currently going that all seem to be linked in a way - all about mankind's values. Nature, resources, consumerism, globalisation, etc. Basically - what in the hell are we doing and where are we going? This 'out of control' business - everywhere. Of course, all these out of control wants come at a price - psychological and physical.

We're not talking about the lady who wants/needs 200 pairs of shoes or the person who needs/wants the latest gadgets, or even the people queuing up to 'get a good deal' and when asked what they were after they didn't care - as long as it was a 'good deal'. It's how the corporations behind those deals are manipulating us , creating the need, making it essential, laughing at our greed, our insecurity - whilst filling their pocket. And how we respond to this manipulation, maybe choosing to ignore the consequences of this (waste, non ethical trading, poor work conditions, etc.). Some winners a LOT of losers from this.

Our society cannot continue on the same path at the same rate - it's doomed to fail (even more than it is now). Good thing, it's discussed and action is already being taken, by individuals, corporations and even goverments (trading standards, working conditions, etc., green issues, etc.).

I'm waffling on, aren't I? :oops: A bit tired and having difficulties putting forth succinct thoughts.

Brian/Jean - must let me know which books you are talking about....


General disclaimer - we/society/us are words used in the most general sense, not talking about every single person in the whole wide world.

pandora

Oh I forgot it's the businessman's fault of course :fp:
those big bad corporations, providing jobs to put meals on tables and toys under the trees.
Donating huge money to help charities.
I'm glad our little corporation is taking care of the children in more ways than one.
I don't feel so bad ...
in fact I feel pretty good ...
let's go buy something :P

riotgrl

Brian's mention of tribal society is what makes me think that several of the threads being discussed are linked within a larger framework. Consumerism is part of the larger issue at hand which to me is about being out of balance with nature/the world because we lack a true community and we are missing an integral part of who we are. I read a fascinating series of books (albeit they were fiction) called Earth's People which is about the colliding worlds of Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon man. While it is a work of fiction Jean Auel does a great job of researching her topic and her view of how these peoples lived started me on my path of research to find out how true some of these assertions might be. For instance, her view of community and consequences for aberrant behavior were interesting. In one situation, she described a mother and father who were both lazy, drunks who did nothing to really care for their children and the community came together to care for these neglected children and there were natural consequences for the neglectful parents that was decided upon by the community. I won't go into great detail about it as I'm not trying to derail the thread but it is that sense of community coupled with community responsbility that I think we are missing. I think in part this loss is what drives us to try to fill the void, in this case, through excessive consumerism. There are other ways we all try to cope but this is certainly a part of it. And as others have mentioned, there are other consequences to our excess consumerism such as waste, etc.

chadwick

pandora wrote:

Oh I forgot it's the businessman's fault of course :fp:
those big bad corporations, providing jobs to put meals on tables and toys under the trees.
Donating huge money to help charities.
I'm glad our little corporation is taking care of the children in more ways than one.
I don't feel so bad ...
in fact I feel pretty good ...
let's go buy something :P

i could use some new things; like a windshield for my car, a new tire, & a lot of other things. i accept money orders, coins, cash, checks, & gold & silver. i'll even accept from you, pand... diamonds.

thank you for your kindness during this giving season that is upon us

come on, pandora? it'll make you feel good, dammit!

food being the most important item i could use. what do ya say, miss?

brianlux

Jeanwah wrote:

brianlux wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

It comes at a psychological price too. I know quite a few people (and from what I've read, it's becoming an epidemic) who don't know how to be happy and have forgotten what truly makes them happy, so they search for happiness in the next purchase. The thrill of shopping and nailing down that purchase makes an awful lot of people think that that "thing" will make them happy. And of course it doesn't. Until the next item falls on their radar and the cycle happens all over again.

I've read the same, Jeanwah. In fact at least three different books I've read this year talked about tribal societies in general being much happier than ours and in those societies, consumerism is a very, very small part of their life style.

Interesting, Brian! It all comes down to expectations really. America pays attention to the media (which they shouldn't). The media tells them to buy that new iphone, that everyone will have it, and you need one too. So of course the expectation is to own an iphone or similar. A combination of what's expected of us as a society, fitting in, seeing how "happy" Joe Schmo is with his iphone, expectations that I'll be as happy as Joe Schmo if I had an iphone, etc. etc. It's a bad cycle, but with a little critical thinking, responsibility, and caring less what "everyone else has", mindless consumerism won't get the best of everyone.

Where are these tribal societies?

Most, sadly, are now extinct for a few of major reasons:
-genocide (including introduction of disease)
-cultural assimilation
-displacement of hunter-gatherer groups by pastoralist groups (farming)

The lure of modern forms of living is less of an influence that any of the above. Most hunter-gatherer societies have disappeared through force. During the colonization of the American plains there were a number of American Indians who were forced to live with the European settlers and establish their life style and the reverse was true, there we whites captures by the Indian and made to live with them in their tribal life style. A much higher percentage of whites taken by Indians found the Indian way of life preferable such that they actually did not want to return to the whites than the reverse- few Indians found the white life style more preferable. I don't have a reference handy for this but it is well documented.

Jeanwah wrote:

Yeah, I admit, that there are some things that I can't help but indulge on, and I don't think there's much wrong with that as long as it's not often. I actually argue with myself in the store... "Do I really need this? No, put it back, you don't have enough money anyway." Usually, I tell myself that if it's something I really want, I'll come back and get it. Most of the time, I forget.

If we took a vote and asked how many of us have made purchases we later regretted or questioned or felt were a waste of time, money and resources most of us would say, "Yes, I have done that." I have. Jeanwah, your reminder to stop and ask ourselves, "Do I really need this? Is this really worth buying?" is most excellent.

brianlux

redrock wrote:

Brian/Jean - must let me know which books you are talking about....

Redrock, here's a list of books that have been part of my self-education related to environment, nature, sustainability, climate change, culture etc. The ones in large print are ones I would recommend first :

Edward Abbey:
-Abbey's Road
-Desert Solitaire
-Good News
-Once Life at a Time, Please
-The Journey Home
-The Monkey Wrench Gang
-A Voice Crying in the Wilderness

Wendell Berry:
-Home Economics
-The Gift of Good Land
-The Hidden Wound
-Sex, Economy, Freedom & Community
-The Unsettling of America
-What are People For?

David Jay Brown:
-Conversations on the Edge of the Apocalypse

Yvon Chouinard
-Let My People Go Surfing (not a book about surfing)

Elizabeth Kolbert
-Filed Notes From a Catastrophe, Man Nature and Climate Change

Tom Hayden:
-The Lost Gospel of the Earth

Stephan Faris:
-Forcast

Masanobu Fukuoka:
-The One-Straw Revolution

Richard Heinberg:
-The party’s Over
-Peak Everything
-Power Down

Gordon Hempton:
-One Square Inch of Silence

Derrick Jensen:
-End Game (volumes I and II)
-A Language Older Than Words

James Howard Kunstler:
-The Long Emergency

R.D. Laing:
-The Politics of Experience

Richard Manning:
-Against the Grain
-A Good House
-Grassland
-One Round River
-Rewilding the West

Bill McKibben:
-Deep Economy
-Eaarth
-The End of Nature
--Enough
-Hope Human and Wild

Henry Pollack:
-A World Without Ice

Daniel Quinn:
-Ishamel
-The Story of B

Kurt Vonnegut:
-Fates Worse then Death
-A Man Without a Country

Alan Weisman:
The World Without Us

Edward O. Wilson:
-The Future of Life
-In Search of Nature

Terry Tempest Williams:
-The Open Space of Democracy
-Refuge

I'm sure I've left some out but these are the one's that stand out.

riotgrl

brianlux wrote:

redrock wrote:

Brian/Jean - must let me know which books you are talking about....

Redrock, here's a list of books that have been part of my self-education related to environment, nature, sustainability, climate change, culture etc. The ones in large print are ones I would recommend first :

Edward Abbey:
-Abbey's Road
-Desert Solitaire
-Good News
-Once Life at a Time, Please
-The Journey Home
-The Monkey Wrench Gang
-A Voice Crying in the Wilderness

Wendell Berry:
-Home Economics
-The Gift of Good Land
-The Hidden Wound
-Sex, Economy, Freedom & Community
-The Unsettling of America
-What are People For?

David Jay Brown:
-Conversations on the Edge of the Apocalypse

Yvon Chouinard
-Let My People Go Surfing (not a book about surfing)

Elizabeth Kolbert
-Filed Notes From a Catastrophe, Man Nature and Climate Change

Tom Hayden:
-The Lost Gospel of the Earth

Stephan Faris:
-Forcast

Masanobu Fukuoka:
-The One-Straw Revolution

Richard Heinberg:
-The party’s Over
-Peak Everything
-Power Down

Gordon Hempton:
-One Square Inch of Silence

Derrick Jensen:
-End Game (volumes I and II)
-A Language Older Than Words

James Howard Kunstler:
-The Long Emergency

R.D. Laing:
-The Politics of Experience

Richard Manning:
-Against the Grain
-A Good House
-Grassland
-One Round River
-Rewilding the West

Bill McKibben:
-Deep Economy
-Eaarth
-The End of Nature
--Enough
-Hope Human and Wild

Henry Pollack:
-A World Without Ice

Daniel Quinn:
-Ishamel
-The Story of B

Kurt Vonnegut:
-Fates Worse then Death
-A Man Without a Country

Alan Weisman:
The World Without Us

Edward O. Wilson:
-The Future of Life
-In Search of Nature

Terry Tempest Williams:
-The Open Space of Democracy
-Refuge

I'm sure I've left some out but these are the one's that stand out.

brianlux certainly lists some excellent books! I personally can recommend Kunstler and anything by Wendell Berry. I also really liked the three books by Quinn as some of the most enlightening books I've ever read. I would also add a couple of books by Thomas Friedman, The World is Flat and Hot, Flat and Crowded as worth checking out as well.

Jeanwah

brianlux wrote:

Most, sadly, are now extinct for a few of major reasons:
-genocide (including introduction of disease)
-cultural assimilation
-displacement of hunter-gatherer groups by pastoralist groups (farming)

The lure of modern forms of living is less of an influence that any of the above. Most hunter-gatherer societies have disappeared through force. During the colonization of the American plains there were a number of American Indians who were forced to live with the European settlers and establish their life style and the reverse was true, there we whites captures by the Indian and made to live with them in their tribal life style. A much higher percentage of whites taken by Indians found the Indian way of life preferable such that they actually did not want to return to the whites than the reverse- few Indians found the white life style more preferable. I don't have a reference handy for this but it is well documented.

So, I thought I read somewhere that there are still a few tribal communities in the world today. There's about 100!. This website is pretty interesting: http://www.survivalinternational.org/goodnews

Jeanwah

That list is quite impressive Brian. I've heard of a lot of them but have only read Ishmael. I'm not a big book reader! I'll have to add a few of those to my list though.

brianlux

Jeanwah wrote:

brianlux wrote:

Most, sadly, are now extinct for a few of major reasons:
-genocide (including introduction of disease)
-cultural assimilation
-displacement of hunter-gatherer groups by pastoralist groups (farming)

The lure of modern forms of living is less of an influence that any of the above. Most hunter-gatherer societies have disappeared through force. During the colonization of the American plains there were a number of American Indians who were forced to live with the European settlers and establish their life style and the reverse was true, there we whites captures by the Indian and made to live with them in their tribal life style. A much higher percentage of whites taken by Indians found the Indian way of life preferable such that they actually did not want to return to the whites than the reverse- few Indians found the white life style more preferable. I don't have a reference handy for this but it is well documented.

So, I thought I read somewhere that there are still a few tribal communities in the world today. There's about 100!. This website is pretty interesting: http://www.survivalinternational.org/goodnews

This site is really cool and very encouraging to see!! Thanks Jeanwah!