It comes at a psychological price too. I know quite a few people (and from what I've read, it's becoming an epidemic) who don't know how to be happy and have forgotten what truly makes them happy, so they search for happiness in the next purchase. The thrill of shopping and nailing down that purchase makes an awful lot of people think that that "thing" will make them happy. And of course it doesn't. Until the next item falls on their radar and the cycle happens all over again.
I've read the same, Jeanwah. In fact at least three different books I've read this year talked about tribal societies in general being much happier than ours and in those societies, consumerism is a very, very small part of their life style.
There are a few threads currently going that all seem to be linked in a way - all about mankind's values. Nature, resources, consumerism, globalisation, etc. Basically - what in the hell are we doing and where are we going? This 'out of control' business - everywhere. Of course, all these out of control wants come at a price - psychological and physical.
We're not talking about the lady who wants/needs 200 pairs of shoes or the person who needs/wants the latest gadgets, or even the people queuing up to 'get a good deal' and when asked what they were after they didn't care - as long as it was a 'good deal'. It's how the corporations behind those deals are manipulating us , creating the need, making it essential, laughing at our greed, our insecurity - whilst filling their pocket. And how we respond to this manipulation, maybe choosing to ignore the consequences of this (waste, non ethical trading, poor work conditions, etc.). Some winners a LOT of losers from this.
Our society cannot continue on the same path at the same rate - it's doomed to fail (even more than it is now). Good thing, it's discussed and action is already being taken, by individuals, corporations and even goverments (trading standards, working conditions, etc., green issues, etc.).
I'm waffling on, aren't I? :oops: A bit tired and having difficulties putting forth succinct thoughts.
Brian/Jean - must let me know which books you are talking about....
General disclaimer - we/society/us are words used in the most general sense, not talking about every single person in the whole wide world.
Oh I forgot it's the businessman's fault of course :fp:
those big bad corporations, providing jobs to put meals on tables and toys under the trees.
Donating huge money to help charities.
I'm glad our little corporation is taking care of the children in more ways than one.
I don't feel so bad ...
in fact I feel pretty good ...
let's go buy something :P
Brian's mention of tribal society is what makes me think that several of the threads being discussed are linked within a larger framework. Consumerism is part of the larger issue at hand which to me is about being out of balance with nature/the world because we lack a true community and we are missing an integral part of who we are. I read a fascinating series of books (albeit they were fiction) called Earth's People which is about the colliding worlds of Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon man. While it is a work of fiction Jean Auel does a great job of researching her topic and her view of how these peoples lived started me on my path of research to find out how true some of these assertions might be. For instance, her view of community and consequences for aberrant behavior were interesting. In one situation, she described a mother and father who were both lazy, drunks who did nothing to really care for their children and the community came together to care for these neglected children and there were natural consequences for the neglectful parents that was decided upon by the community. I won't go into great detail about it as I'm not trying to derail the thread but it is that sense of community coupled with community responsbility that I think we are missing. I think in part this loss is what drives us to try to fill the void, in this case, through excessive consumerism. There are other ways we all try to cope but this is certainly a part of it. And as others have mentioned, there are other consequences to our excess consumerism such as waste, etc.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
Oh I forgot it's the businessman's fault of course :fp:
those big bad corporations, providing jobs to put meals on tables and toys under the trees.
Donating huge money to help charities.
I'm glad our little corporation is taking care of the children in more ways than one.
I don't feel so bad ...
in fact I feel pretty good ...
let's go buy something :P
i could use some new things; like a windshield for my car, a new tire, & a lot of other things. i accept money orders, coins, cash, checks, & gold & silver. i'll even accept from you, pand... diamonds.
thank you for your kindness during this giving season that is upon us
come on, pandora? it'll make you feel good, dammit!
food being the most important item i could use. what do ya say, miss?
It comes at a psychological price too. I know quite a few people (and from what I've read, it's becoming an epidemic) who don't know how to be happy and have forgotten what truly makes them happy, so they search for happiness in the next purchase. The thrill of shopping and nailing down that purchase makes an awful lot of people think that that "thing" will make them happy. And of course it doesn't. Until the next item falls on their radar and the cycle happens all over again.
I've read the same, Jeanwah. In fact at least three different books I've read this year talked about tribal societies in general being much happier than ours and in those societies, consumerism is a very, very small part of their life style.
Interesting, Brian! It all comes down to expectations really. America pays attention to the media (which they shouldn't). The media tells them to buy that new iphone, that everyone will have it, and you need one too. So of course the expectation is to own an iphone or similar. A combination of what's expected of us as a society, fitting in, seeing how "happy" Joe Schmo is with his iphone, expectations that I'll be as happy as Joe Schmo if I had an iphone, etc. etc. It's a bad cycle, but with a little critical thinking, responsibility, and caring less what "everyone else has", mindless consumerism won't get the best of everyone.
Where are these tribal societies?
Most, sadly, are now extinct for a few of major reasons:
-genocide (including introduction of disease)
-cultural assimilation
-displacement of hunter-gatherer groups by pastoralist groups (farming)
The lure of modern forms of living is less of an influence that any of the above. Most hunter-gatherer societies have disappeared through force. During the colonization of the American plains there were a number of American Indians who were forced to live with the European settlers and establish their life style and the reverse was true, there we whites captures by the Indian and made to live with them in their tribal life style. A much higher percentage of whites taken by Indians found the Indian way of life preferable such that they actually did not want to return to the whites than the reverse- few Indians found the white life style more preferable. I don't have a reference handy for this but it is well documented.
Yeah, I admit, that there are some things that I can't help but indulge on, and I don't think there's much wrong with that as long as it's not often. I actually argue with myself in the store... "Do I really need this? No, put it back, you don't have enough money anyway." Usually, I tell myself that if it's something I really want, I'll come back and get it. Most of the time, I forget.
If we took a vote and asked how many of us have made purchases we later regretted or questioned or felt were a waste of time, money and resources most of us would say, "Yes, I have done that." I have. Jeanwah, your reminder to stop and ask ourselves, "Do I really need this? Is this really worth buying?" is most excellent.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.” Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
Democracy Dies in Darkness- Washington Post
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,090
Brian/Jean - must let me know which books you are talking about....
Redrock, here's a list of books that have been part of my self-education related to environment, nature, sustainability, climate change, culture etc. The ones in large print are ones I would recommend first :
Edward Abbey: -Abbey's Road
-Desert Solitaire
-Good News
-Once Life at a Time, Please
-The Journey Home
-The Monkey Wrench Gang
-A Voice Crying in the Wilderness
Wendell Berry: -Home Economics
-The Gift of Good Land
-The Hidden Wound
-Sex, Economy, Freedom & Community
-The Unsettling of America
-What are People For?
David Jay Brown: -Conversations on the Edge of the Apocalypse
Yvon Chouinard -Let My People Go Surfing (not a book about surfing)
Elizabeth Kolbert -Filed Notes From a Catastrophe, Man Nature and Climate Change
Tom Hayden: -The Lost Gospel of the Earth
Stephan Faris: -Forcast
Masanobu Fukuoka: -The One-Straw Revolution
Richard Heinberg: -The party’s Over
-Peak Everything
-Power Down
Gordon Hempton: -One Square Inch of Silence
Derrick Jensen: -End Game (volumes I and II)
-A Language Older Than Words
James Howard Kunstler: -The Long Emergency
R.D. Laing: -The Politics of Experience
Richard Manning: -Against the Grain
-A Good House
-Grassland
-One Round River
-Rewilding the West
Bill McKibben: -Deep Economy
-Eaarth
-The End of Nature
--Enough
-Hope Human and Wild
Henry Pollack: -A World Without Ice
Daniel Quinn: -Ishamel
-The Story of B
Kurt Vonnegut: -Fates Worse then Death
-A Man Without a Country
Alan Weisman: The World Without Us
Edward O. Wilson: -The Future of Life
-In Search of Nature
Terry Tempest Williams: -The Open Space of Democracy
-Refuge
I'm sure I've left some out but these are the one's that stand out.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.” Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
Brian/Jean - must let me know which books you are talking about....
Redrock, here's a list of books that have been part of my self-education related to environment, nature, sustainability, climate change, culture etc. The ones in large print are ones I would recommend first :
Edward Abbey: -Abbey's Road
-Desert Solitaire
-Good News
-Once Life at a Time, Please
-The Journey Home
-The Monkey Wrench Gang
-A Voice Crying in the Wilderness
Wendell Berry: -Home Economics
-The Gift of Good Land
-The Hidden Wound
-Sex, Economy, Freedom & Community
-The Unsettling of America
-What are People For?
David Jay Brown: -Conversations on the Edge of the Apocalypse
Yvon Chouinard -Let My People Go Surfing (not a book about surfing)
Elizabeth Kolbert -Filed Notes From a Catastrophe, Man Nature and Climate Change
Tom Hayden: -The Lost Gospel of the Earth
Stephan Faris: -Forcast
Masanobu Fukuoka: -The One-Straw Revolution
Richard Heinberg: -The party’s Over
-Peak Everything
-Power Down
Gordon Hempton: -One Square Inch of Silence
Derrick Jensen: -End Game (volumes I and II)
-A Language Older Than Words
James Howard Kunstler: -The Long Emergency
R.D. Laing: -The Politics of Experience
Richard Manning: -Against the Grain
-A Good House
-Grassland
-One Round River
-Rewilding the West
Bill McKibben: -Deep Economy
-Eaarth
-The End of Nature
--Enough
-Hope Human and Wild
Henry Pollack: -A World Without Ice
Daniel Quinn: -Ishamel
-The Story of B
Kurt Vonnegut: -Fates Worse then Death
-A Man Without a Country
Alan Weisman: The World Without Us
Edward O. Wilson: -The Future of Life
-In Search of Nature
Terry Tempest Williams: -The Open Space of Democracy
-Refuge
I'm sure I've left some out but these are the one's that stand out.
brianlux certainly lists some excellent books! I personally can recommend Kunstler and anything by Wendell Berry. I also really liked the three books by Quinn as some of the most enlightening books I've ever read. I would also add a couple of books by Thomas Friedman, The World is Flat and Hot, Flat and Crowded as worth checking out as well.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
Most, sadly, are now extinct for a few of major reasons:
-genocide (including introduction of disease)
-cultural assimilation
-displacement of hunter-gatherer groups by pastoralist groups (farming)
The lure of modern forms of living is less of an influence that any of the above. Most hunter-gatherer societies have disappeared through force. During the colonization of the American plains there were a number of American Indians who were forced to live with the European settlers and establish their life style and the reverse was true, there we whites captures by the Indian and made to live with them in their tribal life style. A much higher percentage of whites taken by Indians found the Indian way of life preferable such that they actually did not want to return to the whites than the reverse- few Indians found the white life style more preferable. I don't have a reference handy for this but it is well documented.
So, I thought I read somewhere that there are still a few tribal communities in the world today. There's about 100!. This website is pretty interesting: http://www.survivalinternational.org/goodnews
That list is quite impressive Brian. I've heard of a lot of them but have only read Ishmael. I'm not a big book reader! I'll have to add a few of those to my list though.
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,090
Most, sadly, are now extinct for a few of major reasons:
-genocide (including introduction of disease)
-cultural assimilation
-displacement of hunter-gatherer groups by pastoralist groups (farming)
The lure of modern forms of living is less of an influence that any of the above. Most hunter-gatherer societies have disappeared through force. During the colonization of the American plains there were a number of American Indians who were forced to live with the European settlers and establish their life style and the reverse was true, there we whites captures by the Indian and made to live with them in their tribal life style. A much higher percentage of whites taken by Indians found the Indian way of life preferable such that they actually did not want to return to the whites than the reverse- few Indians found the white life style more preferable. I don't have a reference handy for this but it is well documented.
So, I thought I read somewhere that there are still a few tribal communities in the world today. There's about 100!. This website is pretty interesting: http://www.survivalinternational.org/goodnews
This site is really cool and very encouraging to see!! Thanks Jeanwah!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.” Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
I watched this last night and it made me think of this thread:
Burns: I'll keep it short and sweet. Family, religion, friendship. These
are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business.
When opportunity knocks, you don't want to be driving to a maternity
hospital or sitting in some phony-baloney church. Or synagogue.
"I'm High...With Capitalism!"
1998-06-30 Minneapolis
2003-06-16 St. Paul
2006-06-26 St. Paul
2007-08-05 Chicago
2009-08-23 Chicago
2009-08-28 San Francisco
2010-05-01 NOLA (Jazz Fest)
2011-07-02 EV Minneapolis
2011-09-03 PJ20
2011-09-04 PJ20
2011-09-17 Winnipeg
2012-06-26 Amsterdam
2012-06-27 Amsterdam
2013-07-19 Wrigley
2013-11-21 San Diego
2013-11-23 Los Angeles
2013-11-24 Los Angeles
2014-07-08 Leeds, UK
2014-07-11 Milton Keynes, UK
2014-10-09 Lincoln
2014-10-19 St. Paul
2014-10-20 Milwaukee
2016-08-20 Wrigley 1
2016-08-22 Wrigley 2 2018-06-18 London 1 2018-08-18 Wrigley 1 2018-08-20 Wrigley 2 2022-09-16 Nashville 2023-08-31 St. Paul 2023-09-02 St. Paul 2023-09-05 Chicago 1 2024-08-31 Wrigley 2 2024-09-15 Fenway 1 2024-09-27 Ohana 1 2024-09-29 Ohana 2
I watched this last night and it made me think of this thread:
Burns: I'll keep it short and sweet. Family, religion, friendship. These
are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business.
When opportunity knocks, you don't want to be driving to a maternity
hospital or sitting in some phony-baloney church. Or synagogue.
"I'm High...With Capitalism!"
ah yes all if fair in love war and business ...
I forget what I was going to add to the list now...
ah yes politics.
0
81
Needing a ride to Forest Hills and a ounce of weed. Please inquire within. Thanks. Or not. Posts: 58,276
Oh I forgot it's the businessman's fault of course :fp: those big bad corporations, providing jobs to put meals on tables and toys under the trees.
Donating huge money to help charities.
I'm glad our little corporation is taking care of the children in more ways than one.
I don't feel so bad ...
in fact I feel pretty good ...
let's go buy something :P
Not to take anything away from yours or any other corporate philanthropy, but demand, or expected demand for goods and services, creates/provides jobs. The business is more or less the middleman.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."
Oh I forgot it's the businessman's fault of course :fp: those big bad corporations, providing jobs to put meals on tables and toys under the trees.
Donating huge money to help charities.
I'm glad our little corporation is taking care of the children in more ways than one.
I don't feel so bad ...
in fact I feel pretty good ...
let's go buy something :P
Not to take anything away from yours or any other corporate philanthropy, but demand, or expected demand for goods and services, creates/provides jobs. The business is more or less the middleman.
yes ... I agree
I really feel it when people are not spending, needing, when the economy effects demand.
I truly love business and how it goes round and round.
And when we are busy we need raw product
and related services from other businesses. We need shipping supplies, shipping services.
Could go on and on. Our customers are other businesses. It feels right, what many people
don't think about. The connection and interconnection of all the businesses
working together to provide what is needed.
Comments
There are a few threads currently going that all seem to be linked in a way - all about mankind's values. Nature, resources, consumerism, globalisation, etc. Basically - what in the hell are we doing and where are we going? This 'out of control' business - everywhere. Of course, all these out of control wants come at a price - psychological and physical.
We're not talking about the lady who wants/needs 200 pairs of shoes or the person who needs/wants the latest gadgets, or even the people queuing up to 'get a good deal' and when asked what they were after they didn't care - as long as it was a 'good deal'. It's how the corporations behind those deals are manipulating us , creating the need, making it essential, laughing at our greed, our insecurity - whilst filling their pocket. And how we respond to this manipulation, maybe choosing to ignore the consequences of this (waste, non ethical trading, poor work conditions, etc.). Some winners a LOT of losers from this.
Our society cannot continue on the same path at the same rate - it's doomed to fail (even more than it is now). Good thing, it's discussed and action is already being taken, by individuals, corporations and even goverments (trading standards, working conditions, etc., green issues, etc.).
I'm waffling on, aren't I? :oops: A bit tired and having difficulties putting forth succinct thoughts.
Brian/Jean - must let me know which books you are talking about....
General disclaimer - we/society/us are words used in the most general sense, not talking about every single person in the whole wide world.
those big bad corporations, providing jobs to put meals on tables and toys under the trees.
Donating huge money to help charities.
I'm glad our little corporation is taking care of the children in more ways than one.
I don't feel so bad ...
in fact I feel pretty good ...
let's go buy something :P
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
thank you for your kindness during this giving season that is upon us
come on, pandora? it'll make you feel good, dammit!
food being the most important item i could use. what do ya say, miss?
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Most, sadly, are now extinct for a few of major reasons:
-genocide (including introduction of disease)
-cultural assimilation
-displacement of hunter-gatherer groups by pastoralist groups (farming)
The lure of modern forms of living is less of an influence that any of the above. Most hunter-gatherer societies have disappeared through force. During the colonization of the American plains there were a number of American Indians who were forced to live with the European settlers and establish their life style and the reverse was true, there we whites captures by the Indian and made to live with them in their tribal life style. A much higher percentage of whites taken by Indians found the Indian way of life preferable such that they actually did not want to return to the whites than the reverse- few Indians found the white life style more preferable. I don't have a reference handy for this but it is well documented.
If we took a vote and asked how many of us have made purchases we later regretted or questioned or felt were a waste of time, money and resources most of us would say, "Yes, I have done that." I have. Jeanwah, your reminder to stop and ask ourselves, "Do I really need this? Is this really worth buying?" is most excellent.
Redrock, here's a list of books that have been part of my self-education related to environment, nature, sustainability, climate change, culture etc. The ones in large print are ones I would recommend first :
Edward Abbey:
-Abbey's Road
-Desert Solitaire
-Good News
-Once Life at a Time, Please
-The Journey Home
-The Monkey Wrench Gang
-A Voice Crying in the Wilderness
Wendell Berry:
-Home Economics
-The Gift of Good Land
-The Hidden Wound
-Sex, Economy, Freedom & Community
-The Unsettling of America
-What are People For?
David Jay Brown:
-Conversations on the Edge of the Apocalypse
Yvon Chouinard
-Let My People Go Surfing (not a book about surfing)
Elizabeth Kolbert
-Filed Notes From a Catastrophe, Man Nature and Climate Change
Tom Hayden:
-The Lost Gospel of the Earth
Stephan Faris:
-Forcast
Masanobu Fukuoka:
-The One-Straw Revolution
Richard Heinberg:
-The party’s Over
-Peak Everything
-Power Down
Gordon Hempton:
-One Square Inch of Silence
Derrick Jensen:
-End Game (volumes I and II)
-A Language Older Than Words
James Howard Kunstler:
-The Long Emergency
R.D. Laing:
-The Politics of Experience
Richard Manning:
-Against the Grain
-A Good House
-Grassland
-One Round River
-Rewilding the West
Bill McKibben:
-Deep Economy
-Eaarth
-The End of Nature
--Enough
-Hope Human and Wild
Henry Pollack:
-A World Without Ice
Daniel Quinn:
-Ishamel
-The Story of B
Kurt Vonnegut:
-Fates Worse then Death
-A Man Without a Country
Alan Weisman:
The World Without Us
Edward O. Wilson:
-The Future of Life
-In Search of Nature
Terry Tempest Williams:
-The Open Space of Democracy
-Refuge
I'm sure I've left some out but these are the one's that stand out.
brianlux certainly lists some excellent books! I personally can recommend Kunstler and anything by Wendell Berry. I also really liked the three books by Quinn as some of the most enlightening books I've ever read. I would also add a couple of books by Thomas Friedman, The World is Flat and Hot, Flat and Crowded as worth checking out as well.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
So, I thought I read somewhere that there are still a few tribal communities in the world today. There's about 100!. This website is pretty interesting: http://www.survivalinternational.org/goodnews
This site is really cool and very encouraging to see!! Thanks Jeanwah!
I have read a few - Quinn, Hayden and Vonnegut.
I will have to take a bit of time over Christmas and catch up on the others!
The key word is: Community.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Burns: I'll keep it short and sweet. Family, religion, friendship. These
are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business.
When opportunity knocks, you don't want to be driving to a maternity
hospital or sitting in some phony-baloney church. Or synagogue.
"I'm High...With Capitalism!"
2003-06-16 St. Paul
2006-06-26 St. Paul
2007-08-05 Chicago
2009-08-23 Chicago
2009-08-28 San Francisco
2010-05-01 NOLA (Jazz Fest)
2011-07-02 EV Minneapolis
2011-09-03 PJ20
2011-09-04 PJ20
2011-09-17 Winnipeg
2012-06-26 Amsterdam
2012-06-27 Amsterdam
2013-07-19 Wrigley
2013-11-21 San Diego
2013-11-23 Los Angeles
2013-11-24 Los Angeles
2014-07-08 Leeds, UK
2014-07-11 Milton Keynes, UK
2014-10-09 Lincoln
2014-10-19 St. Paul
2014-10-20 Milwaukee
2016-08-20 Wrigley 1
2016-08-22 Wrigley 2
2018-06-18 London 1
2018-08-18 Wrigley 1
2018-08-20 Wrigley 2
2022-09-16 Nashville
2023-08-31 St. Paul
2023-09-02 St. Paul
2023-09-05 Chicago 1
2024-08-31 Wrigley 2
2024-09-15 Fenway 1
2024-09-27 Ohana 1
2024-09-29 Ohana 2
I forget what I was going to add to the list now...
ah yes politics.
Not to take anything away from yours or any other corporate philanthropy, but demand, or expected demand for goods and services, creates/provides jobs. The business is more or less the middleman.
"With our thoughts we make the world"
I really feel it when people are not spending, needing, when the economy effects demand.
I truly love business and how it goes round and round.
And when we are busy we need raw product
and related services from other businesses. We need shipping supplies, shipping services.
Could go on and on. Our customers are other businesses. It feels right, what many people
don't think about. The connection and interconnection of all the businesses
working together to provide what is needed.