Consumerism is out of control

Jason P

It's kinda related, but right now I'm in a situation where the company I work for loses millions of dollars of unspent money that was allotted for 2012 on December 31st. So I've been given the OK to spend like a mad man. I feel like Richard Prior in Brewster's Millions ... except if I spend it all I'll probably get a nice ham and a gift card to Applebee's instead of $300M.

:(

Oh well, it's still kind of fun. I'm dealing with some very happy contractors and vendors, lots of workers are getting some nice golden time before the holidays, and my place of work gets some nice improvements and is safer.

I have to admit the bemusement I feel while writing a $240K check to a vendor without a care and then cringing when the gas pump reaches $80 while driving home in the evening. Oh, well.

hedonist

Jason P wrote:

Oh well, it's still kind of fun. I'm dealing with some very happy contractors and vendors, lots of workers are getting some nice golden time before the holidays, and my place of work gets some nice improvements and is safer.

This makes me smile - nice to see folks get paid for their work and be happy!

Just curious, where would the money go (or be returned to) if not spent?

riotgrl

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

riotgrl wrote:

For me, consumerism is at the heart of our problems as it idicates a deep belief in capitalsim which means we strongly believe in individualism. I think we do try to stay connected as you mentioned via PJ, Twitter, etc. because we are missing that close connection in our lives. Not to say we don't have those connections in our real life but maybe not like we want. I think consumerism and capitalism and individualism are not the best way for us to live whereas having a collective, communal mentality is the way humans have lived for most of our 3 million years here on earth which is why I think we seek out these connections, even on the internet with people we don't know. For me, I believed that many PJ fans would be like minded and many of them are which does fulfill a need, albeit a selfish need, for me.

Being in my late 30's, my wife and I no longer get together with friends as often as we used to. Almost never, actually, with 2 young daughters and limited access to babysitters and with how busy everyone is. This leads to fewer conversations with others about world events, things we enjoy, etc. So this place fills part of that void for me. And I do learn a lot from AMT that I wouldn't otherwise learn from friends, as not many of my close circle are very well versed in world affairs (as I don't think it interests them), and neither am I compared to most here, but it does interest me, so I like to come here to learn a thing or two I wouldn't otherwise through regular socializing.

Sounds like my situation. My husband and I don't have family living close and babysitters are too expensive to utilize very often so when we do get together with friends it is with the kids (mine are 9 and 6) which means that deep, meaningful conversations are generally cut short to do a bit of refereeing! This place definitely fulfills a need for intellectual stimulation that I don't get enough of, especially since I teach about alot of these topics and have to stay neutral with my students. You guys challenge me and I've definitely learned alot.

I think the more I read (brianlux has been great about showing me new books to check into) and learn the more that I wish I had a real life community like the one that is here. I'm paraphrasing Pandora but she really hit it when she said that the older you get the less you want to keep up with the Joneses which is exactly how I feel about consumerism. I'd rather hang out with the Joneses

pandora

riotgrl wrote:

pandora wrote:

So we shouldn't consume PJ?

I mean really for me consumerism is one example of the least of our problems.
It is strange to me that people stay incredibly connected via twitter, Facebook, internet,
PJ website yet seem to do so for selfish reasons, I bring this up as you mention
insulated, isolated mentality.

I wondered reading this, what age group mostly arrived to camp out at Ikea.
I'd like to take a wild guess and say it was the third decade of life.

Materialism and consumerism can take a back seat when mortality sets in,
somehow ya just don't give a flying F about the Joneses anymore,
it's actually quite freeing.

For me, consumerism is at the heart of our problems as it idicates a deep belief in capitalsim which means we strongly believe in individualism. I think we do try to stay connected as you mentioned via PJ, Twitter, etc. because we are missing that close connection in our lives. Not to say we don't have those connections in our real life but maybe not like we want. I think consumerism and capitalism and individualism are not the best way for us to live whereas having a collective, communal mentality is the way humans have lived for most of our 3 million years here on earth which is why I think we seek out these connections, even on the internet with people we don't know. For me, I believed that many PJ fans would be like minded and many of them are which does fulfill a need, albeit a selfish need, for me.

How are we like minded? Except the obvious of liking the music and them.

When I was younger I bought a lot of stuff cause I like stuff.
Tons of shoes, purses, jewelry, clothes, knick knacks, glasses ...
should I go on?
I never thought of capitalism as my motive or any trickle effect.
I felt all this things showed my style and taste so yes it was my way of showing my individuality.
Actually I probably looked a lot like the other girls back in 70's 80's and 90's.

Speaking of millions of years ago
Women like to nest. Women like to attract men and show up some other women.
Men like to be tantalized with beauty and bobbles, men like to show they can help to provide,
and parents want more for their kids then they had. Communal living, if you mean the suburbs
yep we got that alright. And who the heck created all the covenants? :fp:

I certainly don't want people not to buy... we might land the Ikea catalogue ...
printing needs to go round and round so I can keep my people with a job
and JB and I out of the poorhouse.
I think many business owners, employees would feel the same.

But is that furniture kind of ugly? Where's the color?
To each their own which goes back to my original thought...
are we filled with judgement of others?

instead of understanding and thinking live your life the way that makes you happy,
if that is buying ugly furniture ... knock yourself out ... if that is PJ I get it....
enjoy!

Jeanwah

Clearly, some people have no clue as to the problem that consumerism creates. :roll:

How many know that there is so much plastic in the world that it can wrap around the globe 5 times? That the sand at the coasts isn't really sand anymore, it's ground up plastic? That there are now garbage patches found in every ocean now, and the one in the Pacific is at least the size of Texas?

The ambivalence that people have towards consumption is mind-blowing. That "consume and throw-away" attitude is congesting the earth and its atmosphere and all people can come up with is "it doesn't affect me, so why should I care?" So here are some facts for those of you just looking out for yourselves.

The world creates about 450 million tons of trash each year
In 2008, every person in the USA created 4.5 pounds of trash each day
Countries of North America have 8% of world population but create one half of world's garbage
Over 70% of municipal waste in North America ends up in the landfill
Almost 50% of hazardous waste in Europe ends up in the landfills

In what country do people create most garbage?
Here is the top 10 countries according to Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

1. United States
2. Australia
3. Iceland
4. New Zealand
5. Switzerland
6. Norway
7. Luxembourg
8. France
9. Netherlands
10. Denmark

http://www.lincoln.bizland.com/trash/id10.htm

Jeanwah

http://www.stwr.org/economic-sharing-al ... es-us.html

Overcoming Overconsumption Before It Consumes Us

‘Consumed – Inside the Belly of the Beast’ is a new documentary that explores the evolutionary psychology behind the human urge to consume, even if it is unsustainable and no longer makes us happy. Can a deeper understanding of consumerism help us to overcome it, ask Mark Notaras and Brendan Barrett.

Evolution and psychology explain our urge to consume, argues a new documentary film from the United Kingdom entitled Consumed — Inside the Belly of the Beast. In practical terms that means that the need to acquire status is behind our unsustainable consumption of material items like that new house, new car, new iPad. It’s a strong claim to start off a film with. But then again, it could easily apply to people we know, couldn’t it?

Jeanwah

Oh, and Pandora, if you know anything about printing, then you know that it's a dying industry. No offense to your business, but everyone everywhere knows this by now. So don't go claiming that people need to keep you in business by buying from a catalog you currently print. It's an industry wide slow death.

Pap

The rungs torn from the ladder can't reach the tumour
One God, one market, one truth, one consumer
Rage Against The Machine - Down Rodeo

pandora

Jeanwah wrote:

Oh, and Pandora, if you know anything about printing, then you know that it's a dying industry. No offense to your business, but everyone everywhere knows this by now. So don't go claiming that people need to keep you in business by buying from a catalog you currently print. It's an industry wide slow death.

A dying business I know you' like to think so
somebody doesn't know much about printing...
expand your mind

We don't currently print Ikea catalogue or any catalogues it was an example.
Now next time you go to see a game, go to a restaurant and hold a menu,
go to a church function and read their printed word, put on a name tag for a huge function,
peel off a take one pad, receive an invite to a wedding, hand out a personalized artsie fartsie
business card...

etc etc etc
you might want to think of me!

Printing is still everywhere even on a box of cornflakes

pandora

Jeanwah wrote:

Clearly, some people have no clue as to the problem that consumerism creates. :roll:

How many know that there is so much plastic in the world that it can wrap around the globe 5 times? That the sand at the coasts isn't really sand anymore, it's ground up plastic? That there are now garbage patches found in every ocean now, and the one in the Pacific is at least the size of Texas?

The ambivalence that people have towards consumption is mind-blowing. That "consume and throw-away" attitude is congesting the earth and its atmosphere and all people can come up with is "it doesn't affect me, so why should I care?" So here are some facts for those of you just looking out for yourselves.

The world creates about 450 million tons of trash each year
In 2008, every person in the USA created 4.5 pounds of trash each day
Countries of North America have 8% of world population but create one half of world's garbage
Over 70% of municipal waste in North America ends up in the landfill
Almost 50% of hazardous waste in Europe ends up in the landfills

In what country do people create most garbage?
Here is the top 10 countries according to Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

1. United States
2. Australia
3. Iceland
4. New Zealand
5. Switzerland
6. Norway
7. Luxembourg
8. France
9. Netherlands
10. Denmark

http://www.lincoln.bizland.com/trash/id10.htm

I think everyone knows consumerism creates garbage but it also gives people jobs.
I wonder how much better people are doing since 2008 in creating less.
I certainly see a lot more awareness ... on the bright side.

pandora

Jeanwah wrote:

http://www.stwr.org/economic-sharing-alternatives/overcoming-overconsumption-before-it-consumes-us.html

Overcoming Overconsumption Before It Consumes Us

‘Consumed – Inside the Belly of the Beast’ is a new documentary that explores the evolutionary psychology behind the human urge to consume, even if it is unsustainable and no longer makes us happy. Can a deeper understanding of consumerism help us to overcome it, ask Mark Notaras and Brendan Barrett.

Evolution and psychology explain our urge to consume, argues a new documentary film from the United Kingdom entitled Consumed — Inside the Belly of the Beast. In practical terms that means that the need to acquire status is behind our unsustainable consumption of material items like that new house, new car, new iPad. It’s a strong claim to start off a film with. But then again, it could easily apply to people we know, couldn’t it?

Isn't this keeping up with the Joneses? ... gee we knew that back in the 60's
Human nature ... that is probably not going anywhere til a huge disaster that makes people
appreciate the little things in life.... like just being alive.

Jason P

hedonist wrote:

Just curious, where would the money go (or be returned to) if not spent?

I believe it goes to The Man.

Or it goes to the imaginary money-land that supplies the U.S. Treasury.

riotgrl

pandora wrote:

riotgrl wrote:

pandora wrote:

So we shouldn't consume PJ?

I mean really for me consumerism is one example of the least of our problems.
It is strange to me that people stay incredibly connected via twitter, Facebook, internet,
PJ website yet seem to do so for selfish reasons, I bring this up as you mention
insulated, isolated mentality.

I wondered reading this, what age group mostly arrived to camp out at Ikea.
I'd like to take a wild guess and say it was the third decade of life.

Materialism and consumerism can take a back seat when mortality sets in,
somehow ya just don't give a flying F about the Joneses anymore,
it's actually quite freeing.

For me, consumerism is at the heart of our problems as it idicates a deep belief in capitalsim which means we strongly believe in individualism. I think we do try to stay connected as you mentioned via PJ, Twitter, etc. because we are missing that close connection in our lives. Not to say we don't have those connections in our real life but maybe not like we want. I think consumerism and capitalism and individualism are not the best way for us to live whereas having a collective, communal mentality is the way humans have lived for most of our 3 million years here on earth which is why I think we seek out these connections, even on the internet with people we don't know. For me, I believed that many PJ fans would be like minded and many of them are which does fulfill a need, albeit a selfish need, for me.

How are we like minded? Except the obvious of liking the music and them.

When I was younger I bought a lot of stuff cause I like stuff.
Tons of shoes, purses, jewelry, clothes, knick knacks, glasses ...
should I go on?
I never thought of capitalism as my motive or any trickle effect.
I felt all this things showed my style and taste so yes it was my way of showing my individuality.
Actually I probably looked a lot like the other girls back in 70's 80's and 90's.

Speaking of millions of years ago
Women like to nest. Women like to attract men and show up some other women.
Men like to be tantalized with beauty and bobbles, men like to show they can help to provide,
and parents want more for their kids then they had. Communal living, if you mean the suburbs
yep we got that alright. And who the heck created all the covenants? :fp:

I certainly don't want people not to buy... we might land the Ikea catalogue ...
printing needs to go round and round so I can keep my people with a job
and JB and I out of the poorhouse.
I think many business owners, employees would feel the same.

But is that furniture kind of ugly? Where's the color?
To each their own which goes back to my original thought...
are we filled with judgement of others?

instead of understanding and thinking live your life the way that makes you happy,
if that is buying ugly furniture ... knock yourself out ... if that is PJ I get it....
enjoy!

You and I are not like-minded from what I have seen of your posts, And I don't believe that I am like-minded with ALL from here but I believe that many here are open minded and willing to discuss a wide range of topics without being narrow minded - that is how some here are like minded and what I expected from some here on the forum.

Capitalism is our motivation because we have been taught to like "stuff" since we were born. This need to like stuff for the sake of liking stuff was an effort to keep up with the Joneses that was perpetrated by the baby boomers beginning in the 60s. For the first time in Amerian history there was a large middle class who could aspire to being the Joneses if only they could get lots and lots of stuff. As Jeanwah said in another post, the US consumes and throws away more stuff than any other nation. We are a culture that throws away rather than reusing, reducing or making do, with the exception of a few people.

As for communal living, the suburbs ain't it. That's as far from communal living as you can get. Check out the documentary Sprawling from Grace that outlines the real and serious consequences of living this unsustainable lifestyle. Or perhaps you can read some James Kunstler, he has some really interesting ideas about how suburban living is part of the problems we are experiencing here in the US.

pandora

riotgrl wrote:

You and I are not like-minded from what I have seen of your posts, And I don't believe that I am like-minded with ALL from here but I believe that many here are open minded and willing to discuss a wide range of topics without being narrow minded - that is how some here are like minded and what I expected from some here on the forum.

Capitalism is our motivation because we have been taught to like "stuff" since we were born. This need to like stuff for the sake of liking stuff was an effort to keep up with the Joneses that was perpetrated by the baby boomers beginning in the 60s. For the first time in Amerian history there was a large middle class who could aspire to being the Joneses if only they could get lots and lots of stuff. As Jeanwah said in another post, the US consumes and throws away more stuff than any other nation. We are a culture that throws away rather than reusing, reducing or making do, with the exception of a few people.

As for communal living, the suburbs ain't it. That's as far from communal living as you can get. Check out the documentary Sprawling from Grace that outlines the real and serious consequences of living this unsustainable lifestyle. Or perhaps you can read some James Kunstler, he has some really interesting ideas about how suburban living is part of the problems we are experiencing here in the US.

Gee I have never been called narrow minded in such a back handed way
sweet! now we see your heart and judgement.

Yes we have established keeping up with the Joneses and the 60's
when you may have just been a twinkle in your Dads eye... yes?
I got all the stuff those were wonderful years.

I still got some of that stuff and you know what ...
these are cherished greatly because they were hand picked by loved ones
who have left this world.
Really Big Picture.... not of this world.
Guess some stuff is ok and cool, right ????

My post was tongue in cheek... do you understand tongue in cheek?
Yes I know the burbs aren't communal living. Alrighty then.
But please don't put me in a commune with you
more tongue in cheek not to be taken seriously.

One thing in common we both consume Pearl Jam probably as much as we can
and that is one of the cool things.

I think it's time to limit one child per family... speaking of sustainable... what you say?
Cause I really don't think people will stop consuming anytime soon.
Kidding again.

hedonist

Jason P wrote:

hedonist wrote:

Just curious, where would the money go (or be returned to) if not spent?

I believe it goes to The Man.

Or it goes to the imaginary money-land that supplies the U.S. Treasury.

Ahhh...the ever-growing money tree :P Seems better well-spent with your writing of those checks.

Your reference to The Man, and this thread in general, reminds me (in part, anyway) of Tool's Hooker with a Penis -

All you know about me is what I've sold you, dumbfuck
I sold out long before you ever heard my name
I sold my soul to make a record, dipshit, and you bought one
All you read and wear or see and hear on TV Is a product begging for your fatass dirty dollar so...
Shut up and BUY my new record
Send more money
Fuck you, buddy!

(sidenote to pandora - I think you may not be reading riotgrl's comments quite right; not presuming to speak on her behalf, just my penny for a thought)

redrock

Lots of good points in this thread. I'd like to take just three words out of the title: "out of control".

Consumerism, as others said, is a necessity in our current world. Not a bad thing at a 'normal' level. Creates jobs, makes our lives a bit easier than our grand-parents' lives (or before) with say, washing machine, dryer - goods we 'want' as a consumer, etc.

Of course we all like 'stuff' - been since beginning of mankind. But is has come to a level that is damaging to us, as beings and to the planet as several posters have mentioned (pollution, waste, etc). Damage to the planet is obvious but damage to 'us' maybe not so obvious. The by-product of this excess of consumerism (ie want/need/do whatever to get..) has a nefast influence on humankind. Greed, not being satisfied, wanting at whatever cost even maybe leading to crime, etc. We lose track of real values.

riotgrl wrote:

Capitalism is our motivation because we have been taught to like "stuff" since we were born.

We are marketing people's dreams - gullible and way too eager to possess. An iPhone (or whatever) comes out? Must have it. Another one coming out 6 months later with a little tweak to make it different? Sold - I want it - throw away the other one. Same with everything else. Some people buy new cars/computers/phones, etc. every year because they want and they can (not always though as some will go into debt for this). And this not automatically to 'keep up with the Jones'' but also to try and satisfy a craving, a 'something' that we don't really understand.

I see where you're coming from riotgrl when you ), speak of communal/collective mentality (and not living in a commune or suburbs, I gather!). I guess a certain sense of belonging (for lack of better word) - to humankind, to the earth/nature 'calms'/may remove the urge to 'buy' to fill a need - less retail therapy.

Commerce, consumerism and capitalism are necessary 'evils' (if one wants to see it that way). They are necessary to keep us going - no doubt. Turning the clocks back is not really possible. But looking forward doesn't have to be the same ol' thing (or worse).

Education is the key, I believe. Teach our kids it's not necessary. Show our kids how 'the other half' live without all these 'things'. See the whole picture - understand the impact.

pandora

hedonist wrote:

Jason P wrote:

hedonist wrote:

Just curious, where would the money go (or be returned to) if not spent?

I believe it goes to The Man.

Or it goes to the imaginary money-land that supplies the U.S. Treasury.

Ahhh...the ever-growing money tree :P Seems better well-spent with your writing of those checks.

Your reference to The Man, and this thread in general, reminds me (in part, anyway) of Tool's Hooker with a Penis -

All you know about me is what I've sold you, dumbfuck
I sold out long before you ever heard my name
I sold my soul to make a record, dipshit, and you bought one
All you read and wear or see and hear on TV Is a product begging for your fatass dirty dollar so...
Shut up and BUY my new record
Send more money
Fuck you, buddy!

(sidenote to pandora - I think you may not be reading riotgrl's comments quite right; not presuming to speak on her behalf, just my penny for a thought)

a penny for your thought .... a ha commercialism

noted I'll see what she has to say ...
I actually hope I misunderstood the 'narrow-minded' insult.

For me, there are so many human faults that really matter in this world
I just don't find someone being materialistic to be at the top of let's fix it.
I would rather see kindness, acceptance and understanding first....
all else will follow.

I will also go back to the constant finding fault with others and that
throughout one's life materialism fades in general. Less is needed to satisfy,
life is fulfilling the older one gets.

hedonist

redrock wrote:

Commerce, consumerism and capitalism are necessary 'evils' (if one wants to see it that way). They are necessary to keep us going - no doubt. Turning the clocks back is not really possible. But looking forward doesn't have to be the same ol' thing (or worse).

Education is the key, I believe. Teach our kids it's not necessary. Show our kids how 'the other half' live without all these 'things'. See the whole picture - understand the impact.

I'm not sure I see those three C's as evils - necessary, sure - but also, I think, useful. Maybe it's the mindset some attach to them that makes them perceived as such.

There's a line (many of them, and some are blurred, even seem to sway at times) between needs and wants. My beloved '97 Integra has served me well and still does, for the most part. Would I like a brand-new car? Hell yeah! Could I afford it? Mostly, hell yeah! Do I NEED it right now? Hell no! So I'll do without, for now.

Same for our tv - it's a big old motherfucker (big as in deep, old school). A bigass HD screen would be SWEET. But, not needed.

Appliances 20 years old (bless you, Kenmore) - would love to replace them and could even use the energy-efficiency reason to do so - but, they all still work just fine.

I'm not about to tell anyone how to spend their money or not. But, I do believe it's important to distinguish between what is luxury - gravy - and what it REALLY takes to live.

Half the shit we have now, I grew up without (and suspect many here could say the same) - and somehow turned out pretty well

redrock

Thus me saying 'if one wants to see it that way'. What makes them 'evils' is how far one takes them.

I also replace when broken/at the end of their life. Though I must say, as an example, we have a desktop, a laptop and a tablet. All necessary? I don't think so though there are three of us using this kind of technology. Could we be better at sharing the one or two? Most probably but I admit, I've 'consumed'!

I don't believe there is anything wrong with wanting as opposed to just needing. Assuming it's within our means, we all have 'useless' things or one too many little black dresses. But society as a whole has become way too obsessed with wanting and owning for the sake of it - because they can.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

redrock wrote:

Thus me saying 'if one wants to see it that way'. What makes them 'evils' is how far one takes them.

I also replace when broken/at the end of their life. Though I must say, as an example, we have a desktop, a laptop and a tablet. All necessary? I don't think so though there are three of us using this kind of technology. Could we be better at sharing the one or two? Most probably but I admit, I've 'consumed'!

I don't believe there is anything wrong with wanting as opposed to just needing. Assuming it's within our means, we all have 'useless' things or one too many little black dresses. But society as a whole has become way too obsessed with wanting and owning for the sake of it - because they can.

your last paragraph is what I was getting at. thanks redrock.