the abuse of women by Islamic extremists or otherwise

Cosmo

catefrances wrote:

Gods were way more fun B.C... and there were more of them. even the christian God was intereting.. sure he was a dick at times but he was way more interactive with mankind. what happened? did he get bored with us? or did we come to the greatest revelation of all... that God exists only because we made him and therfore started to move away from him and think about him differently? what i find fascinating is the evolution of christianity and islam as monotheistic religions. how is it that we embraced these middle eastern religions as our own at the expense of, in my case at least, the pantheon of celtic Gods? how is it that the greeks, who had some of the awesomest Gods in the history of mankind came to worship a jewish man as their saviour?

...
Great questions... no real answers. Except, God still talks to the crazy homeless guy who lives on Fairfax Avenue in L.A.
The funny thing... The God image most of us Western-types think of... is Zeus. The white-haired, bearded old white dude in paintings is based on the ancient Greek god from the ancient Greek civilization. There is a reason why there are no images of God in the Jewish religion... God's image cannot be created by Man. That's why Jewish Temples are decorated with geometric designs, rather than sculptures... am I right? Help me out, my Jewish brothers/sisters.
God (or whatever) has such an overwhelming burden because He has to shoulder all of the imperfections on Man, whom created God in his (Man's) image. Christianity gained popularity and took root because you can lay all of the shit you've done in your life onto Jesus' back. That is how Hitler ended up in Heaven, by asking forgiveness of his lord saviour... while the 6 million Jews burn in Hell for not accepting Jesus as their Saviour.
Makes sense.... right?

JOEJOEJOE

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

Gods were way more fun B.C... and there were more of them. even the christian God was intereting.. sure he was a dick at times but he was way more interactive with mankind. what happened? did he get bored with us? or did we come to the greatest revelation of all... that God exists only because we made him and therfore started to move away from him and think about him differently? what i find fascinating is the evolution of christianity and islam as monotheistic religions. how is it that we embraced these middle eastern religions as our own at the expense of, in my case at least, the pantheon of celtic Gods? how is it that the greeks, who had some of the awesomest Gods in the history of mankind came to worship a jewish man as their saviour?

...
Great questions... no real answers. Except, God still talks to the crazy homeless guy who lives on Fairfax Avenue in L.A.
The funny thing... The God image most of us Western-types think of... is Zeus. The white-haired, bearded old white dude in paintings is based on the ancient Greek god from the ancient Greek civilization. There is a reason why there are no images of God in the Jewish religion... God's image cannot be created by Man. That's why Jewish Temples are decorated with geometric designs, rather than sculptures... am I right? Help me out, my Jewish brothers/sisters.
God (or whatever) has such an overwhelming burden because He has to shoulder all of the imperfections on Man, whom created God in his (Man's) image. Christianity gained popularity and took root because you can lay all of the shit you've done in your life onto Jesus' back. That is how Hitler ended up in Heaven, by asking forgiveness of his lord saviour... while the 6 million Jews burn in Hell for not accepting Jesus as their Saviour.
Makes sense.... right?

You are correct...we jews do not try to put a face to the name.

In fact, we don't even spell out his/her name in full...we use G-d.

In addition, unless Jewsish people are saying a prayer or reading the torah (the bible),
G-d is referred to as "Hashem" (Hebrew for "the name"), as opposed to the formal name, which is "Adonai".

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

Gods were way more fun B.C... and there were more of them. even the christian God was intereting.. sure he was a dick at times but he was way more interactive with mankind. what happened? did he get bored with us? or did we come to the greatest revelation of all... that God exists only because we made him and therfore started to move away from him and think about him differently? what i find fascinating is the evolution of christianity and islam as monotheistic religions. how is it that we embraced these middle eastern religions as our own at the expense of, in my case at least, the pantheon of celtic Gods? how is it that the greeks, who had some of the awesomest Gods in the history of mankind came to worship a jewish man as their saviour?

...
Great questions... no real answers. Except, God still talks to the crazy homeless guy who lives on Fairfax Avenue in L.A.
The funny thing... The God image most of us Western-types think of... is Zeus. The white-haired, bearded old white dude in paintings is based on the ancient Greek god from the ancient Greek civilization. There is a reason why there are no images of God in the Jewish religion... God's image cannot be created by Man. That's why Jewish Temples are decorated with geometric designs, rather than sculptures... am I right? Help me out, my Jewish brothers/sisters.
God (or whatever) has such an overwhelming burden because He has to shoulder all of the imperfections on Man, whom created God in his (Man's) image. Christianity gained popularity and took root because you can lay all of the shit you've done in your life onto Jesus' back. That is how Hitler ended up in Heaven, by asking forgiveness of his lord saviour... while the 6 million Jews burn in Hell for not accepting Jesus as their Saviour.
Makes sense.... right?

jews will go to their own heaven... not the christian heaven. tho wouldnt it be cool if the afterlife was one big multidenominational festival? all those earthbound years of separation through religion and my god is better than your god is the one true god and in the end everyone ends up in the same place. i doubt it matters to them tho that some megolomaniac thinks differently.

catefrances

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

You are correct...we jews do not try to put a face to the name.

In fact, we don't even spell out his/her name in full...we use G-d.

In addition, unless Jewsish people are saying a prayer or reading the torah (the bible),
G-d is referred to as "Hashem" (Hebrew for "the name"), as opposed to the formal name, which is "Adonai".

why dont you spell out god in full???

Cosmo

catefrances wrote:

...
jews will go to their own heaven... not the christian heaven. tho wouldnt it be cool if the afterlife was one big multidenominational festival? all those earthbound years of separation through religion and my god is better than your god is the one true god and in the end everyone ends up in the same place. i doubt it matters to them tho that some megolomaniac thinks differently.

...
I didn't know Heaven was split up... I was under the impression that if we got there... there would be no use for religion because... hey... there's God over there... let's ask Him.
I guess it's good that God has Heaven segrated by religion... otherwise Hitler would have an awful lot of angry Jews wanting to kick his ass when they got there.

fuck

catefrances wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

This is what happens when Religion based upon old writings that are considered to be 'Holy', are used as the basis for Laws to be followed by Man.
I mean, look at the Bible... there are tons of examples of how to treat Women as underlings... hell, even as property. As societies move away from religious text as rigid law, we see Women in a different light... and we don't sell our daughters to settle our sins.
Islam is what... 1400 years old? What was Christianity like in the 1400s?
In other words... Islam has to want to change and no matter what we say or want... they need to grow up and away from that crappy interpretation of what they believe God wants them to do... just as Christianity (for the better part) has moved away from the way God was depicted by Men... 5000 years ago.

Gods were way more fun B.C... and there were more of them. even the christian God was intereting.. sure he was a dick at times but he was way more interactive with mankind. what happened? did he get bored with us? or did we come to the greatest revelation of all... that God exists only because we made him and therfore started to move away from him and think about him differently? what i find fascinating is the evolution of christianity and islam as monotheistic religions. how is it that we embraced these middle eastern religions as our own at the expense of, in my case at least, the pantheon of celtic Gods? how is it that the greeks, who had some of the awesomest Gods in the history of mankind came to worship a jewish man as their saviour?

Well, one big reason Islam beat out the polytheism of Arabia during the 7th century was the fact that it was a social movement as well--calling for economic justice, fighting the notion of 'class.' It was not strange to see a Muslim man buy a Muslim slave who was being persecuted by his polytheistic owner for his conversion, and then free him. Moreover, while lots of the earlier Qur'anic verses stressed God's monotheism, the verses also stressed economic and social justice. Moreover, the fact that the first 13 years of Muhammad's mission was carried out entirely peaceful, despite the huge persecution Muslims were getting (similar to Jesus) earned him a lot of support. It was only until far later when the Muslims were in a position of power and had their own city-state in Medina that you see verses that had more of a 'legislative' nature to them. Furthermore, the fact that Muslims had a sense of religious pluralism with other monotheistic faiths in the beginning (evidenced, for example, by the Constitution of Medina) helped earn them support. Finally, when Muhammad conquered Mecca, and the Islamic empire began to grow, conversion was convenient to many others.

As for why Christianity won out, I'm sure the adoption of the religion by the Roman Empire had a lot to do with it.

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

...
jews will go to their own heaven... not the christian heaven. tho wouldnt it be cool if the afterlife was one big multidenominational festival? all those earthbound years of separation through religion and my god is better than your god is the one true god and in the end everyone ends up in the same place. i doubt it matters to them tho that some megolomaniac thinks differently.

...
I didn't know Heaven was split up... I was under the impression that if we got there... there would be no use for religion because... hey... there's God over there... let's ask Him.
I guess it's good that God has Heaven segrated by religion... otherwise Hitler would have an awful lot of angry Jews wanting to kick his ass when they got there.

and that would be karma kicking his arse, would it not???

fuck

Jason P wrote:

fuck wrote:

Jason P wrote:

When airplanes full of civilians are flown into skyscrapers, it tends to catch our attention.

So the reason Americans are allowed to watch youtube videos of some crazy men in an entire other part of the world, and ultimately cast judgment upon some of the most contentious issues going on in that part of the world is because a group of crazies from there committed 9/11?
Don't even try to say that they committed 9/11 because of anything in Islam either. That argument has long been discredited, and I suggest you read up on the history of U.S. foreign policy in that part of the world if you don't already know that.

Most people didn't even know what a Muslim was back then any more then they know what a Buddhist or Hindu is today. The second that Buddhists and Hindus start strapping ball-bearings to their chest and blowing themselves in crowded marketplaces, we will pay heed to their extremist sects and the behavior they display.

And it is complete pish posh to say Islam wasn't involved in 9/11. Recruiting would be very hard if you didn't believe that blowing yourself up will be rewarded in the afterlife.

Oh, give me a fucking break. As if Timothy McVay changed the perception of Christianity in the U.S. People still feel comfortable saying Christianity does not necessarily cause this and that the extremism of others is very minimal. Islam is a whole other story.

Quit acting like this is a normal reaction of Americans to 9/11 to be this prejudiced against Islam. The fact is, Islam has long been seen as 'the other.' Just look at Huntington's notion of the clash of civilizations. The West is supposed to have that Judeo-Christian heritage that only recognizes Islam as foreign. Throughout the past several hundred years, since colonialism, so much misinformation about Islam has been prevalent throughout society. It's absolutely ludicrous to suggest that it's simply a reaction to 9/11. That's not to suggest that 9/11 did not mark a turning point, but all it did was add more fuel to the flames of arrogance and misconceptions that were already burning--ironically, they were burning in the first place due to U.S. foreign policy.

chadwick

men worldwide are cruel to women. the middle east is a clusterfuck of harsh bullshit & wars over religion, land, oil & what have you. anyone who believes for a moment that women are equals over there should maybe consider visiting those countries who are famous for oppressing women, maybe you'll stay beings it is so lovely. i'll guarantee you something, there is not a woman in the 10 club community who would spend a great deal of time in the middle east alone or with someone. in fact she would most probably run away from the idea.

i will admit i do not know much about muslim & islam. but i do know the women are second class citizens as are the women of china and female new borns... it is a circus act in china & other oriental countries. what country treats their women well?

many powerful women here in the u.s. how are the spanish speaking countries treating their women? europe? can a woman be stoned to death for being raped in russia? if a woman is raped in poland is she punished by imprisonment?

fuck

I mean, I just don't understand these types of topics. What if someone in the Muslim world found random articles of the most savage things one could hear done to women and children in the U.S. (you know they exist in this country) and blames it all on the hedonism and commercialism and militarism rampant in American culture, that allows these movies riddled with violence in them to be so common in society, etc.? It would be absolutely stupid of someone like that, halfway around the world, to make a judgment like that, even if mini-truths in it exists. So, why is it ok for Americans to do this about the Muslim world? You know stories like this only flood the mainstream media just to keep up support for what the powers that be are doing there, if only to justify some insane 'civilizing mission'.

catefrances

fuck wrote:

Well, one big reason Islam beat out the polytheism of Arabia during the 7th century was the fact that it was a social movement as well--calling for economic justice, fighting the notion of 'class.' It was not strange to see a Muslim man buy a Muslim slave who was being persecuted by his polytheistic owner for his conversion, and then free him. Moreover, while lots of the earlier Qur'anic verses stressed God's monotheism, the verses also stressed economic and social justice. Moreover, the fact that the first 13 years of Muhammad's mission was carried out entirely peaceful, despite the huge persecution Muslims were getting (similar to Jesus) earned him a lot of support. It was only until far later when the Muslims were in a position of power and had their own city-state in Medina that you see verses that had more of a 'legislative' nature to them. Furthermore, the fact that Muslims had a sense of religious pluralism with other monotheistic faiths in the beginning (evidenced, for example, by the Constitution of Medina) helped earn them support. Finally, when Muhammad conquered Mecca, and the Islamic empire began to grow, conversion was convenient to many others.

As for why Christianity won out, I'm sure the adoption of the religion by the Roman Empire had a lot to do with it.

aah yes conquest.. always an awesome thing when wanting to promote ones ideals and beliefs.

fuck

chadwick wrote:

men worldwide are cruel to women. the middle east is a clusterfuck of harsh bullshit & wars over religion, land, oil & what have you. anyone who believes for a moment that women are equals over there should maybe consider visiting those countries who are famous for oppressing women, maybe you'll stay beings it is so lovely. i'll guarantee you something, there is not a woman in the 10 club community who would spend a great deal of time in the middle east alone or with someone. in fact she would most probably run away from the idea.

i will admit i do not know much about muslim & islam. but i do know the women are second class citizens as are the women of china and female new borns... it is a circus act in china & other oriental countries. what country treats their women well?

many powerful women here in the u.s. how are the spanish speaking countries treating their women? europe? can a woman be stoned to death for being raped in russia? if a woman is raped in poland is she punished by imprisonment?

If you have a problem with laws, then maybe you should consider that most of those countries are not democracies, and it is not their citizens who want this to happen, but the dictatorships that allow these insane policies to exist--and many of those dictatorships are there due to U.S. and Western support. It is not right to make any judgments of their culture based on these policies without adequately studying the culture, the nature of the political regime in place, the various beliefs existent in such a society, etc.

fuck

catefrances wrote:

fuck wrote:

Well, one big reason Islam beat out the polytheism of Arabia during the 7th century was the fact that it was a social movement as well--calling for economic justice, fighting the notion of 'class.' It was not strange to see a Muslim man buy a Muslim slave who was being persecuted by his polytheistic owner for his conversion, and then free him. Moreover, while lots of the earlier Qur'anic verses stressed God's monotheism, the verses also stressed economic and social justice. Moreover, the fact that the first 13 years of Muhammad's mission was carried out entirely peaceful, despite the huge persecution Muslims were getting (similar to Jesus) earned him a lot of support. It was only until far later when the Muslims were in a position of power and had their own city-state in Medina that you see verses that had more of a 'legislative' nature to them. Furthermore, the fact that Muslims had a sense of religious pluralism with other monotheistic faiths in the beginning (evidenced, for example, by the Constitution of Medina) helped earn them support. Finally, when Muhammad conquered Mecca, and the Islamic empire began to grow, conversion was convenient to many others.

As for why Christianity won out, I'm sure the adoption of the religion by the Roman Empire had a lot to do with it.

aah yes conquest.. always an awesome thing when wanting to promote ones ideals and beliefs.

Yep, religion or no religion, conquest, greed, power, etc, are all human.

catefrances

fuck wrote:

I mean, I just don't understand these types of topics. What if someone in the Muslim world found random articles of the most savage things one could hear done to women and children in the U.S. (you know they exist in this country) and blames it all on the hedonism and commercialism and militarism rampant in American culture, that allows these movies riddled with violence in them to be so common in society, etc.? It would be absolutely stupid of someone like that, halfway around the world, to make a judgment like that, even if mini-truths in it exists. So, why is it ok for Americans to do this about the Muslim world? You know stories like this only flood the mainstream media just to keep up support for what the powers that be are doing there, if only to justify some insane 'civilizing mission'.

id like to think its a way of sorting through the bullshit and disseminating truths. for people who are open to it. misconceptions are a part of our growth.. but hopefully we push through our myopic views and see that the story of mankind is the same the world over.it just differs in the details. but of course there are always those who manage to live their whole lives with blinders on and it matters not if the truth is staring them in the face.

aerial

catefrances wrote:

fuck wrote:

I mean, I just don't understand these types of topics. What if someone in the Muslim world found random articles of the most savage things one could hear done to women and children in the U.S. (you know they exist in this country) and blames it all on the hedonism and commercialism and militarism rampant in American culture, that allows these movies riddled with violence in them to be so common in society, etc.? It would be absolutely stupid of someone like that, halfway around the world, to make a judgment like that, even if mini-truths in it exists. So, why is it ok for Americans to do this about the Muslim world? You know stories like this only flood the mainstream media just to keep up support for what the powers that be are doing there, if only to justify some insane 'civilizing mission'.

id like to think its a way of sorting through the bullshit and disseminating truths. for people who are open to it. misconceptions are a part of our growth.. but hopefully we push through our myopic views and see that the story of mankind is the same the world over.it just differs in the details. but of course there are always those who manage to live their whole lives with blinders on and it matters not if the truth is staring them in the face.

People like you have the blinders on....how can you and fuck deny how women are treated do to the middle Easts refusal to evolve into civilized human beings! People in USA go bonkers if a woman cannot abort her baby,,,,yet all so forgiving if a woman gets stoned to death or murdered for being raped!?..because it is the culture that she lives in....really? is that a legit excuse with you and fuck?....The story of man kind is NOT the same the world over, My God open your closed mind.....Can you say "to may philosophy class's from liberal professors" ? Just a guess..... :fp:

catefrances

aerial wrote:

catefrances wrote:

fuck wrote:

I mean, I just don't understand these types of topics. What if someone in the Muslim world found random articles of the most savage things one could hear done to women and children in the U.S. (you know they exist in this country) and blames it all on the hedonism and commercialism and militarism rampant in American culture, that allows these movies riddled with violence in them to be so common in society, etc.? It would be absolutely stupid of someone like that, halfway around the world, to make a judgment like that, even if mini-truths in it exists. So, why is it ok for Americans to do this about the Muslim world? You know stories like this only flood the mainstream media just to keep up support for what the powers that be are doing there, if only to justify some insane 'civilizing mission'.

id like to think its a way of sorting through the bullshit and disseminating truths. for people who are open to it. misconceptions are a part of our growth.. but hopefully we push through our myopic views and see that the story of mankind is the same the world over.it just differs in the details. but of course there are always those who manage to live their whole lives with blinders on and it matters not if the truth is staring them in the face.

People like you have the blinders on....how can you and fuck deny how women are treated do to the middle Easts refusal to evolve into civilized human beings! People in USA go bonkers if a woman cannot abort her baby,,,,yet all so forgiving if a woman gets stoned to death or murdered for being raped!?..because it is the culture that she lives in....really? is that a legit excuse with you and fuck?....The story of man kind is NOT the same the world over, My God open your closed mind.....Can you say "to may philosophy class's from liberal professors" ? Just a guess..... :fp:

im not denying anything. what im doing is trying not to condemn all muslims due to the actions of those who use their religion as an excuse for abuse. not once have i condoned the behaviour of these MEN. but i also know that not all countries where islam is the dominant religion condone it either. much like the degree to which the different denominationswithin christianity interpret the bible(not to mention those who make their own shit up), those who practise islam interpret the quran differently dependent upon what denomination within that religion they are. and yes it does also come down to culture. dont make the mistake that you seem to be doing of labelling islam as a monolithic religion.. much like christianity, it is not. i condemn the actions of MEN. i choose to lay the responsibiitly where it belongs.. on the MEN. millions of muslims live peacefully in this world, so why blame the religion when it is the actions of MEN. ingrained culutre is bitch to change. in grained culture that has deep roots in religion is an even harder bitch to sway.

Cosmo

aerial wrote:

catefrances wrote:

fuck wrote:

I mean, I just don't understand these types of topics. What if someone in the Muslim world found random articles of the most savage things one could hear done to women and children in the U.S. (you know they exist in this country) and blames it all on the hedonism and commercialism and militarism rampant in American culture, that allows these movies riddled with violence in them to be so common in society, etc.? It would be absolutely stupid of someone like that, halfway around the world, to make a judgment like that, even if mini-truths in it exists. So, why is it ok for Americans to do this about the Muslim world? You know stories like this only flood the mainstream media just to keep up support for what the powers that be are doing there, if only to justify some insane 'civilizing mission'.

id like to think its a way of sorting through the bullshit and disseminating truths. for people who are open to it. misconceptions are a part of our growth.. but hopefully we push through our myopic views and see that the story of mankind is the same the world over.it just differs in the details. but of course there are always those who manage to live their whole lives with blinders on and it matters not if the truth is staring them in the face.

People like you have the blinders on....how can you and fuck deny how women are treated do to the middle Easts refusal to evolve into civilized human beings! People in USA go bonkers if a woman cannot abort her baby,,,,yet all so forgiving if a woman gets stoned to death or murdered for being raped!?..because it is the culture that she lives in....really? is that a legit excuse with you and fuck?....The story of man kind is NOT the same the world over, My God open your closed mind.....Can you say "to may philosophy class's from liberal professors" ? Just a guess..... :fp:

...
No one if 'For' beating and raping women. More like, it brings to light the real life problems that crop up when current day laws and cultures revolve around religions texts from the mind on men, living a couple of thousand years ago.

JOEJOEJOE

catefrances wrote:

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

You are correct...we jews do not try to put a face to the name.

In fact, we don't even spell out his/her name in full...we use G-d.

In addition, unless Jewsish people are saying a prayer or reading the torah (the bible),
G-d is referred to as "Hashem" (Hebrew for "the name"), as opposed to the formal name, which is "Adonai".

why dont you spell out god in full???

It is a way to show respect and reverence. It is based on the tradition of not spelling it out in Hebrew.

catefrances

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

catefrances wrote:

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

You are correct...we jews do not try to put a face to the name.

In fact, we don't even spell out his/her name in full...we use G-d.

In addition, unless Jewsish people are saying a prayer or reading the torah (the bible),
G-d is referred to as "Hashem" (Hebrew for "the name"), as opposed to the formal name, which is "Adonai".

why dont you spell out god in full???

It is a way to show respect and reverence. It is based on the tradition of not spelling it out in Hebrew.

hmmm :think:

Jason P

fuck wrote:

Oh, give me a fucking break. As if Timothy McVay changed the perception of Christianity in the U.S. People still feel comfortable saying Christianity does not necessarily cause this and that the extremism of others is very minimal. Islam is a whole other story.

Quit acting like this is a normal reaction of Americans to 9/11 to be this prejudiced against Islam. The fact is, Islam has long been seen as 'the other.' Just look at Huntington's notion of the clash of civilizations. The West is supposed to have that Judeo-Christian heritage that only recognizes Islam as foreign. Throughout the past several hundred years, since colonialism, so much misinformation about Islam has been prevalent throughout society. It's absolutely ludicrous to suggest that it's simply a reaction to 9/11. That's not to suggest that 9/11 did not mark a turning point, but all it did was add more fuel to the flames of arrogance and misconceptions that were already burning--ironically, they were burning in the first place due to U.S. foreign policy.

HA!

Tim is your retort? As if he did his deeds in the name of religion...

:fp:



We don't care about anybody unless they are helping or hurting us.

People of your mindset claim the US is screwing everybody. Why is it that South Americans aren't flying commercial airplanes into our buildings? Or Europeans? Or South Africans? Or anybody else that has sanity???

:think:

Is it ludicrous to think that religion was the factor??? Or is it sane to think that normal human-beings had their minds poisoned by the interpretation of a book???