How does the fact that they're Muslim change everything in terms of what is and isn't acceptable regarding women's rights? In the end, I don't think it matters one way or the other WHY women are subjected in these cultures. What matters is that they are.
For the record, I haven't actually said that the reason women's rights are terrible in the Middle East is because of Islam. I think you must be mixing me up with some other posts. But now that you mention it, that is a part of it, definitely. It is preached, and it is written. Here is an article to show that Islam does subject women in its purest teachings (let alone how it's practiced in real life after men have translated it into real life, which is what really matters). http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/11/ ... n_tha.html ). (I do not, btw, know anything at all about this publication, so whatever political views it might be affiliated with is meaningless here; I chose it simply because it had direct quotes from the Q'uran)
I DO "blame Islam" for the treatment of women by Muslim men. But more than that, I blame Muslim men who do it, and I blame them for taking those parts of their faith that DO lead to the subjection of women and take them to heart (just as I am equally outraged by men who take the teachings of, say, the Mormon Church to the extremes that some do, or any other religion or cult who does the same). After that, I blame the culture that has evolved into one where men are the rulers, and that IS a fact, and an easy one to see with ones own eyes - the degree to which this happens varies, but men are DEFINITELY very much the rulers, whatever the degree of the subjection (or abuse) is.
Muslims CAN of course treat women with total equality and still have their faith - I dated and lived with one, and he was amazing in that sense (though did not grow up in the Middle East, but in South East Asia). But in Muslim nations, this has not come to be, either by action or, largely, by law.
Anyway, I do not think there is any room for understanding on this point; this is an issue that needs to be confronted with a wrecking ball. I hope that all the disgust about the treatment of women in current Muslim culture grows, and pressures those cultures to change fast. Many of them WILL have to look at their faith and agree to dismiss certain tenants of their faith in order to do so, just as many Christians have done when it comes to the shit against women in the Bible.
Sorry for assuming you haven't lived in the Middle East, but I do still find your attitude re women's rights in the Middle East fucked up. :oops: Because religion and culture is what is behind the role of women in that society. And discussing that is pointless. The only thing that busts these kinds of things is protests, strong ones, angry ones, and a demand from all people who are against it for those who aren't to STOP NOW. Protests and iots happen over issues like these, not intellectual discussions. That is NOT something that is solves through intellectual discussion. Can you show me ONE instance where civil rights were achieved through intellectual discussion (amount whom??) as opposed to drastic measures or circumstances? I can't think of one, and that is NOT what will work in this case either. I don't understand where you get the idea that it would be. I mean, seriously... you think massive cultural change is going to come about calmly and intellectually in the Middle East of all places?? Maybe if you gave it 500 years... but I don't consider this something that can wait.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
It is preached, and it is written. Here is an article to show that Islam does subject women in its purest teachings (let alone how it's practiced in real life after men have translated it into real life, which is what really matters). http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/11/ ... n_tha.html ). (I do not, btw, know anything at all about this publication, so whatever political views it might be affiliated with is meaningless here; I chose it simply because it had direct quotes from the Q'uran).
Without going into anything else at the moment, one can find similar 'teachings' in the ancient texts of the bible.
It is preached, and it is written. Here is an article to show that Islam does subject women in its purest teachings (let alone how it's practiced in real life after men have translated it into real life, which is what really matters). http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/11/ ... n_tha.html ). (I do not, btw, know anything at all about this publication, so whatever political views it might be affiliated with is meaningless here; I chose it simply because it had direct quotes from the Q'uran).
Without going into anything else at the moment, one can find similar 'teachings' in the ancient texts of the bible.
Absolutely (although not quite as disturbing) - that's why I mentioned other religions in my post. But just because I'm not talking about Christianity in my post doesn't mean that other religions aren't guilty of all kinds of awful shit. They ALL are. I'm an Atheist, and think that religion is pretty much the worst thing in the world generally. But we're talking about Islam right now (plus, Islam is where the problem largely lies in the here and now; luckily, most Christian denominations have moved in a positive direction with this issue, whereas Islam has not (and in some circumstances has become worse).
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Comments
How does the fact that they're Muslim change everything in terms of what is and isn't acceptable regarding women's rights? In the end, I don't think it matters one way or the other WHY women are subjected in these cultures. What matters is that they are.
For the record, I haven't actually said that the reason women's rights are terrible in the Middle East is because of Islam. I think you must be mixing me up with some other posts. But now that you mention it, that is a part of it, definitely. It is preached, and it is written. Here is an article to show that Islam does subject women in its purest teachings (let alone how it's practiced in real life after men have translated it into real life, which is what really matters).
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/11/ ... n_tha.html ). (I do not, btw, know anything at all about this publication, so whatever political views it might be affiliated with is meaningless here; I chose it simply because it had direct quotes from the Q'uran)
I DO "blame Islam" for the treatment of women by Muslim men. But more than that, I blame Muslim men who do it, and I blame them for taking those parts of their faith that DO lead to the subjection of women and take them to heart (just as I am equally outraged by men who take the teachings of, say, the Mormon Church to the extremes that some do, or any other religion or cult who does the same). After that, I blame the culture that has evolved into one where men are the rulers, and that IS a fact, and an easy one to see with ones own eyes - the degree to which this happens varies, but men are DEFINITELY very much the rulers, whatever the degree of the subjection (or abuse) is.
Muslims CAN of course treat women with total equality and still have their faith - I dated and lived with one, and he was amazing in that sense (though did not grow up in the Middle East, but in South East Asia). But in Muslim nations, this has not come to be, either by action or, largely, by law.
Anyway, I do not think there is any room for understanding on this point; this is an issue that needs to be confronted with a wrecking ball. I hope that all the disgust about the treatment of women in current Muslim culture grows, and pressures those cultures to change fast. Many of them WILL have to look at their faith and agree to dismiss certain tenants of their faith in order to do so, just as many Christians have done when it comes to the shit against women in the Bible.
Sorry for assuming you haven't lived in the Middle East, but I do still find your attitude re women's rights in the Middle East fucked up. :oops: Because religion and culture is what is behind the role of women in that society. And discussing that is pointless. The only thing that busts these kinds of things is protests, strong ones, angry ones, and a demand from all people who are against it for those who aren't to STOP NOW. Protests and iots happen over issues like these, not intellectual discussions. That is NOT something that is solves through intellectual discussion. Can you show me ONE instance where civil rights were achieved through intellectual discussion (amount whom??) as opposed to drastic measures or circumstances? I can't think of one, and that is NOT what will work in this case either. I don't understand where you get the idea that it would be. I mean, seriously... you think massive cultural change is going to come about calmly and intellectually in the Middle East of all places?? Maybe if you gave it 500 years... but I don't consider this something that can wait.
Without going into anything else at the moment, one can find similar 'teachings' in the ancient texts of the bible.