Meet Debbie Schlussel, who says Norway’s ‘HAMAS Youth’ got what was coming to them
by Paul Mutter on August 5, 2011
One of Pamela Geller's cohorts, Debbie Schlussel, has explicitly stated that those killed at Utoya got what was coming to them because they were "HAMAS Youth" and (at the same time) "Fatah PLO" terrorists.
Schlussel may not be as well-known as Geller (perhaps because Schlussel has not exercised a leading role in anything as prominent as the "Ground Zero Mosque" furor), but she is a politically active Republican and more mainstream than Geller because she is also a culture writer with a strong media presence. (Not that she separates this work from her anti-Islamic campaign - she has criticized the film industry for not doing enough to portray Islam "correctly").
Her opinion on the Norway terror attacks can be summed up with these quotes taken from her ongoing screeds against the terror victims:
"Based on these pics, seems like he’s [Glenn Beck's] spot on, though he should have added, HAMAS Youth camp, too. As we all know, Nazis boycotted Jews and were Jew-killers. And these hateful, privileged brats at the camp boycotted Jews and sided with Jew-killers.
But what goes around comes around. You support terrorists against innocent civilians in Israel, then you get attacked by terrorists who are upset with your support . . . .
Frankly, the HAMAS charter and HAMAS’ behavior, all of which these kids at the Norwegian HAMAS youth camp cheered on, is a lot more scary than the screed and deeds of Breivik . . . .
I shed no tears for these HAMASnik campers with a Scandinavian dialect. Perpetrators are not victims. Sorry. HAMAS collaborators don’t get my pity. They never will."
Far stronger words than Geller was willing to use. But they are par for the course as far as Schlussel is concerned.
Her prominence derives from her utility to the male conservative-dominated anti-Islamic movement. The fact that she is a woman (and also the daughter of Holocaust survivors) speaking out against Islam gives greater credence to an ideological group whose most well-known speakers are white Christian males like Newt Gingrich, Geert Wilders and Pat Robertson (the movement is, as a whole, dominated by sociopolitically conservative men, although many are not Christians).
Gingrich and Robertson, for instance, denounce Islamic attitudes towards women, while still being hostile to "feminism" under the cloak of "family values." Having women on their anti-Islamic bandwagon helps prove their "point" about Islamic backwardness and their moral righteousness, which is a combination of faux-progressivism (treating Geller and Schlussel as intellectual co-equals) and paternalism (evoking Orientalist images of rapacious Muslim brutes). A similar logic animates the GOP embrace of Sarah Palin, Ann Coulter and Michele Bachmann. Schlussel and Geller, among others, are useful for the right (while at the same time, they castigate individuals on the left for being Islam's "useful idiots").
But back to Schlussel's own anti-Islamic agenda. Before this most recent denunciation of insufficiently Zionist individuals, she famously responded to Osama bin Laden's death by quipping "1 down, 1.8 billion to go." When a family of West Bank settlers were murdered earlier this year, she approvingly quoted PM Netanyahu's son's remarks that "terror has a religion and it is Islam” and “not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims."
Schlussel is an ardent Zionist - Hamas and Fatah are basically the same thing, in her analysis, and are dedicated to ending Israel forever. With this in mind, few individuals or institutions are pro-Israel enough for her: Republican Governor Chris Christie, for instance, is "Hamas GOP" because he appointed Pakistani-American Sohail Mohammed, a Muslim attorney who defended individuals (including Hamas supporters) that the federal government sought to extradite from the U.S. after 9/11, to the NJ State Supreme Court. Whole Foods is "anti-Israel" because it sells fair trade products from Palestinian farmers in the West Bank and has dared to wish its customers a good Ramadan (there is ill-intent behind this marketing ploy, of course). And, like Robert Spencer and Pat Robertson, she believes that mainstream media is "anti-American" (and thus, anti-Western) and panders to Islam because it is anti-Semitic, anti-Christian and anti-Western.
Both Congressmen Ron Paul (who has called for a U.S. withdraw from the Middle East and an end to the US$3 billion in aid Washington sends Israel annually) and Dennis Kucinich (who condemned the Israeli assault on the first Freedom Flotilla) are "for" Hamas, according to Schlussel. That a libertarian who caucuses with the GOP and one of the most lefit-wing members of the Democratic Party are somehow colluding to advance Hamas's agenda is well within the realm of possibility for Schlussel: either you are with Israel (and the West - which, by extension, means you're "with" civilization), or against it. For Schlussel, no Muslim can ever be "for" those things.
As Southern Poverty Law Center's Hate Watch asked in its coverage of her work, why did Schlussel even bother saying that she doesn't support Anders Breivik when she says that "I can’t feel sorry for those who support my would-be assassins. And I don’t get too upset when they face the karma that is their fate."
Meet Debbie Schlussel, who says Norway’s ‘HAMAS Youth’ got what was coming to them
by Paul Mutter on August 5, 2011
One of Pamela Geller's cohorts, Debbie Schlussel, has explicitly stated that those killed at Utoya got what was coming to them because they were "HAMAS Youth" and (at the same time) "Fatah PLO" terrorists.
Schlussel may not be as well-known as Geller (perhaps because Schlussel has not exercised a leading role in anything as prominent as the "Ground Zero Mosque" furor), but she is a politically active Republican and more mainstream than Geller because she is also a culture writer with a strong media presence. (Not that she separates this work from her anti-Islamic campaign - she has criticized the film industry for not doing enough to portray Islam "correctly").
Her opinion on the Norway terror attacks can be summed up with these quotes taken from her ongoing screeds against the terror victims:
"Based on these pics, seems like he’s [Glenn Beck's] spot on, though he should have added, HAMAS Youth camp, too. As we all know, Nazis boycotted Jews and were Jew-killers. And these hateful, privileged brats at the camp boycotted Jews and sided with Jew-killers.
But what goes around comes around. You support terrorists against innocent civilians in Israel, then you get attacked by terrorists who are upset with your support . . . .
Frankly, the HAMAS charter and HAMAS’ behavior, all of which these kids at the Norwegian HAMAS youth camp cheered on, is a lot more scary than the screed and deeds of Breivik . . . .
I shed no tears for these HAMASnik campers with a Scandinavian dialect. Perpetrators are not victims. Sorry. HAMAS collaborators don’t get my pity. They never will."
Far stronger words than Geller was willing to use. But they are par for the course as far as Schlussel is concerned.
Her prominence derives from her utility to the male conservative-dominated anti-Islamic movement. The fact that she is a woman (and also the daughter of Holocaust survivors) speaking out against Islam gives greater credence to an ideological group whose most well-known speakers are white Christian males like Newt Gingrich, Geert Wilders and Pat Robertson (the movement is, as a whole, dominated by sociopolitically conservative men, although many are not Christians).
Gingrich and Robertson, for instance, denounce Islamic attitudes towards women, while still being hostile to "feminism" under the cloak of "family values." Having women on their anti-Islamic bandwagon helps prove their "point" about Islamic backwardness and their moral righteousness, which is a combination of faux-progressivism (treating Geller and Schlussel as intellectual co-equals) and paternalism (evoking Orientalist images of rapacious Muslim brutes). A similar logic animates the GOP embrace of Sarah Palin, Ann Coulter and Michele Bachmann. Schlussel and Geller, among others, are useful for the right (while at the same time, they castigate individuals on the left for being Islam's "useful idiots").
But back to Schlussel's own anti-Islamic agenda. Before this most recent denunciation of insufficiently Zionist individuals, she famously responded to Osama bin Laden's death by quipping "1 down, 1.8 billion to go." When a family of West Bank settlers were murdered earlier this year, she approvingly quoted PM Netanyahu's son's remarks that "terror has a religion and it is Islam” and “not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims."
Schlussel is an ardent Zionist - Hamas and Fatah are basically the same thing, in her analysis, and are dedicated to ending Israel forever. With this in mind, few individuals or institutions are pro-Israel enough for her: Republican Governor Chris Christie, for instance, is "Hamas GOP" because he appointed Pakistani-American Sohail Mohammed, a Muslim attorney who defended individuals (including Hamas supporters) that the federal government sought to extradite from the U.S. after 9/11, to the NJ State Supreme Court. Whole Foods is "anti-Israel" because it sells fair trade products from Palestinian farmers in the West Bank and has dared to wish its customers a good Ramadan (there is ill-intent behind this marketing ploy, of course). And, like Robert Spencer and Pat Robertson, she believes that mainstream media is "anti-American" (and thus, anti-Western) and panders to Islam because it is anti-Semitic, anti-Christian and anti-Western.
Both Congressmen Ron Paul (who has called for a U.S. withdraw from the Middle East and an end to the US$3 billion in aid Washington sends Israel annually) and Dennis Kucinich (who condemned the Israeli assault on the first Freedom Flotilla) are "for" Hamas, according to Schlussel. That a libertarian who caucuses with the GOP and one of the most lefit-wing members of the Democratic Party are somehow colluding to advance Hamas's agenda is well within the realm of possibility for Schlussel: either you are with Israel (and the West - which, by extension, means you're "with" civilization), or against it. For Schlussel, no Muslim can ever be "for" those things.
As Southern Poverty Law Center's Hate Watch asked in its coverage of her work, why did Schlussel even bother saying that she doesn't support Anders Breivik when she says that "I can’t feel sorry for those who support my would-be assassins. And I don’t get too upset when they face the karma that is their fate."
No time to read all your blaa blaa blaa now......but I will later
Can you prove this is not true
Edible Arrangements: Muslim Owners of Fruit Basket Company Fund HAMAS, Jihadist Extremism
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
Aerial, you really need to stop quoting known racists, and hatemongers here on the message board, and regurgitating their bile.
It's not cool, and it's definitely not clever.
NOT agreeing with Terrorism is not hate mongering or racist.......knowing who the terrorist are and there agenda is Cool (as you put it)
But I am not trying to be cool.....I am informing those that care not to fund terrorism....OK?
Urban Dictionary.....hate monger
1.)A person who uses political beliefs or passions of any kind as a platform to express their hatred for another individual.
NOW who is the Hate Monger?
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
It is a known FACT that women are abused and treated as lower people in Islamic countries. For crying out loud, they only legalized women being allowed to DRIVE in Saudi Arabia in the past year, and that is one of the progressive and modernized Islamic countries! Weighing information and being informed from all sides of an issue so that ones opinions are balanced is a great thing, but some other people in this thread are just as guilty as Aerial is when it comes to believing biased information, but just from the other side of the argument.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
You seem to be in defense of Sharia law. I don't accept that view. Yes, I do know that it involves all kinds of things that are considered the complete and total adherence to Islam. That includes the subjection of women, including the male dominance over them and the right to punish them for various "acts against Islam". It makes me sick, and not only is there no room for that shit within North America, but there is no room for that shit anywhere in the world as far as I'm concerned. Sharia followers can tells us about how clean they need to be and how they want to adhere to Islamic relationships and carry out finances in a certain way until the cows come home. And you can talk about some kind of lack of understanding all you want too (but I think it's ridiculous for you to suggest that women might be in a reasonable and understandable position within such a culture). Until Sharia law dictates that women are equal to men, I cannot and will not respect such beliefs, and I will not apologize for it.
This is not a complicated issue that demands a lot of discussion and research. It is quite cut and dry, in fact. I have no room for such attitudes and treatment towards women in my world view, nor do I have room for understanding for the men who subject women to such beliefs. I find it offensive when anyone defends Sharia law, frankly, assuming they have any understanding whatsoever of what it dictates about the role of men and women within that system. That you make the assumption that I have a lack of understanding of what Sharia law entails because I don't approve of it shows that you don't understand the weight and impact that their laws around male dominance and female subjugation have on a lot of people, particularly other women. I find it curious that your concerns lie with what is "truly Islamic" as opposed to what is actually practiced in real life. To me, it's what is practiced in real life that matters (although I also take issue with your claim that in "true Islam" women are considered equal to men - that is false). What may or may not be the academic pure definition of Islamic teachings is neither here nor there if that is not how it's been translated into actual practice. I don't see the point of this argument. It tends to make excuses for what is inexcusable.
aerial's posts re: this particular topic have a long history of being devoid of any intellect, and the source he or she cited is not acceptable in any normal debate setting. I think on any normal occasion you would agree that aerial's vapid posts lack any real substance, but you're so desperate in this circumstance to find anything to defend your radical position that you are forced to accept it. The mere fact that you see this entire debate as either "for" or "against" Shari`ah further demonstrates that you lack any ability to judge this from an academic viewpoint. You can sit here and say, "I'm only judging this based off of what is applied in real life" as if you are some self-proclaimed realist and have no time to trouble yourself with theories, but everyone knows that that is absolute nonsense--for instance, the United States went to Iraq to spread democracy and freedom. Does it then hold that democracy and freedom are responsible for the carnage that engulfed Iraq as a result of this liberal mission? The fact is, you absolutely cannot sit here and say 'I want to only judge the practice' because there are people putting this practice into effect, and their motives and intentions must be judged. Furthermore, the theory and practice must be separated to then see the role these actors play. The reason for this is that the discussion is whether Islam inherently views women as unequal to men. Citing examples of rogue states and tribes does not help your case, it just demonstrates your inability to see beyond soundbites in Western media.
The fact that you can even so easily claim that this is not a complicated issue that requires discussion and research shows your arrogance. As if it would be o.k. for anyone to say something similar about a Western ideal like liberalism. If the French were spreading liberalism in Algeria, the British in India, and the United States in Iraq, then why are we allowed to go around and tell these peoples that liberalism is some universalist ideal that is applicable any time and any place? Such arrogance. You did not even consider the arguments I gave in my previous post, you just posted some short two paragraph rant about why you're right despite everything, without providing any evidence--for that, you chose to rely on aerial's choice source. Well done.
You're going to have to learn two things, although they play off one another: first, not everyone thinks like you, and your principles may be ideal in a most general sense, but as you get more specific, people think differently from you and you're going to have to learn that. In other words, women in Muslim countries do not want to adopt your liberal feminist viewpoint. Look at the Gallup polls conducted, they want Shari`ah. The fact is, many women see Muslim as their identity, and are unwilling to let it go. Which brings me to my second point, many women do not see Shari`ah as limiting them. Instead, the same rules hold across different parts of the world, including Canada and the U.S., where women are often subjugated by men. The experiences are certainly different, but there's a reason to consider that the principle holds that sexism exists everywhere, because it is not due to Shari`ah. Furthermore, you have no actual history to support most of your claims. Most of your claims of Shari`ah literally entered the news in the past 20-30 years when radical Islamic movements began to emerge, such as the Taliban. However, you ignore over 1000 years of Islamic civilization, not surprisingly, since from what I can tell, the majority of your information comes from Western media reports over the last several years. I have a question: do you go around arrogantly advising people how best to diagnose a serious disease? Probably not, because you haven't studied it, and watching a season of House, M.D. is not enough. It only comes to politics and history that people think they can base their knowledge off of media and television alone. These subjects however are all sciences and DO require research and discussion, no matter how much you refuse to acknowledge it.
Thank you for your posts about Shari'ah law, very informative.
Here is an academic view point for you....some history....and Truth
The history of Islam in Europe and how it effects us to this day. This is a history based on numbers and facts that you may not see anywhere else and explains why we may be afraid to see Islam for what it is based on its own doctrine and practice.
Those that throw out "but the Crusaders killed people".....how many compared to Islamist? and who is still killing?
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
It is a known FACT that women are abused and treated as lower people in Islamic countries. For crying out loud, they only legalized women being allowed to DRIVE in Saudi Arabia in the past year, and that is one of the progressive and modernized Islamic countries! Weighing information and being informed from all sides of an issue so that ones opinions are balanced is a great thing, but some other people in this thread are just as guilty as Aerial is when it comes to believing biased information, but just from the other side of the argument.
And western countries still treat women as lower people. To put this in perspective, the US just recently gave women the right to vote. In the US white men still try to control women’s bodies. How about how Christian beliefs on relationship between a man and a woman. Catholic church. We are all evolving and that includes the middle east. The more we fight those that aren’t like us the longer it will take for them to catch up as it gives their leaders ammunition to portray the west as being bad. Show understanding, be cool, and the young uns will come on board. The Internet will speed this along but the more we throw hate back, the longer it will take.
It is a known FACT that women are abused and treated as lower people in Islamic countries. For crying out loud, they only legalized women being allowed to DRIVE in Saudi Arabia in the past year, and that is one of the progressive and modernized Islamic countries! Weighing information and being informed from all sides of an issue so that ones opinions are balanced is a great thing, but some other people in this thread are just as guilty as Aerial is when it comes to believing biased information, but just from the other side of the argument.
And western countries still treat women as lower people. To put this in perspective, the US just recently gave women the right to vote. In the US white men still try to control women’s bodies. How about how Christian beliefs on relationship between a man and a woman. Catholic church. We are all evolving and that includes the middle east. The more we fight those that aren’t like us the longer it will take for them to catch up as it gives their leaders ammunition to portray the west as being bad. Show understanding, be cool, and the young uns will come on board. The Internet will speed this along but the more we throw hate back, the longer it will take.
The US gave women the right to vote in 1910 or something like that. I am talking about the here and now. I don't care what used to happen (just like a don't care what Christians did in the Crusade - it's totally irrelevant to the here and now). I am a woman. I am very, very, VERY aware of how women are or are not treated in the world, or within different religions. I didn't say everyone else was perfect. Just because I say that this is a HUGE issue within Islam, doesn't mean everything is peachy-keen in all other circumstances. However, I do say that it is BY FAR THE WORST for women of the Muslim world. By far. And there is a concerted effort by a lot of Islamic men and religious leaders to RESIST changes for women's rights and equality. The Middle East is NOT really evolving in this regard, and that is a major concern.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
It is a known FACT that women are abused and treated as lower people in Islamic countries. For crying out loud, they only legalized women being allowed to DRIVE in Saudi Arabia in the past year, and that is one of the progressive and modernized Islamic countries! Weighing information and being informed from all sides of an issue so that ones opinions are balanced is a great thing, but some other people in this thread are just as guilty as Aerial is when it comes to believing biased information, but just from the other side of the argument.
As to the Evils of Sharia Law, in the US we know there are innocent humans on death row, we release them all the time, yet we are willing to let a few innocents be strapped to a gurney and have lethal dose of poisons injected into their arms....or better yet shoot a bolt of lightning into their bodies so that we get the sweet taste of revenge. Are we really any better?
It is a known FACT that women are abused and treated as lower people in Islamic countries. For crying out loud, they only legalized women being allowed to DRIVE in Saudi Arabia in the past year, and that is one of the progressive and modernized Islamic countries! Weighing information and being informed from all sides of an issue so that ones opinions are balanced is a great thing, but some other people in this thread are just as guilty as Aerial is when it comes to believing biased information, but just from the other side of the argument.
As to the Evils of Sharia Law, in the US we know there are innocent humans on death row, we release them all the time, yet we are willing to let a few innocents be strapped to a gurney and have lethal dose of poisons injected into their arms....or better yet shoot a bolt of lightning into their bodies so that we get the sweet taste of revenge. Are we really any better?
I do not support the death penalty - I am very much opposed to it - and luckily I do not live in a country where it is practiced. I do not understand your point at all. Yes, the US is better in terms of human rights, despite their disgusting and embarrassing laws re the death penalty. By a LOOOOOONNNNG shot. If you don't think so, then you must be delusional or something. Either way, I just don't get this whole line of reasoning. What difference does it make to this issue if there are other wrongs happening in the world? Do you subscribe to the 2 wrongs make a right theory, or is it the 'well if everyone else is doing it, then it's okay' theory? :?
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
It is a known FACT that women are abused and treated as lower people in Islamic countries. For crying out loud, they only legalized women being allowed to DRIVE in Saudi Arabia in the past year, and that is one of the progressive and modernized Islamic countries! Weighing information and being informed from all sides of an issue so that ones opinions are balanced is a great thing, but some other people in this thread are just as guilty as Aerial is when it comes to believing biased information, but just from the other side of the argument.
As to the Evils of Sharia Law, in the US we know there are innocent humans on death row, we release them all the time, yet we are willing to let a few innocents be strapped to a gurney and have lethal dose of poisons injected into their arms....or better yet shoot a bolt of lightning into their bodies so that we get the sweet taste of revenge. Are we really any better?
I do not support the death penalty - I am very much opposed to it - and luckily I do not live in a country where it is practiced. I do not understand your point at all. Yes, the US is better in terms of human rights, despite their disgusting and embarrassing laws re the death penalty. By a LOOOOOONNNNG shot. If you don't think so, then you must be delusional or something. Either way, I just don't get this whole line of reasoning. What difference does it make to this issue if there are other wrongs happening in the world? Do you subscribe to the 2 wrongs make a right theory, or is it the 'well if everyone else is doing it, then it's okay' theory? :?
Now now....delusional??? My line of reasoning is evolution takes time....and getting all hot and bothered about anothers culture is not going to help things. And all this behavior sucks just think we need to look into the mirror before we rant about others.
It is a known FACT that women are abused and treated as lower people in Islamic countries. For crying out loud, they only legalized women being allowed to DRIVE in Saudi Arabia in the past year, and that is one of the progressive and modernized Islamic countries! Weighing information and being informed from all sides of an issue so that ones opinions are balanced is a great thing, but some other people in this thread are just as guilty as Aerial is when it comes to believing biased information, but just from the other side of the argument.
As to the Evils of Sharia Law, in the US we know there are innocent humans on death row, we release them all the time, yet we are willing to let a few innocents be strapped to a gurney and have lethal dose of poisons injected into their arms....or better yet shoot a bolt of lightning into their bodies so that we get the sweet taste of revenge. Are we really any better?
In the USA everyone has there day in court (though unless they have money they do not always get a fair trial, but that is another thread). If they are a child molester or rapist I DO agree with the death penalty
( just my opinion). Would you want to live in say Egypt, Iran or any other Arab country?
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
It is a known FACT that women are abused and treated as lower people in Islamic countries. For crying out loud, they only legalized women being allowed to DRIVE in Saudi Arabia in the past year, and that is one of the progressive and modernized Islamic countries! Weighing information and being informed from all sides of an issue so that ones opinions are balanced is a great thing, but some other people in this thread are just as guilty as Aerial is when it comes to believing biased information, but just from the other side of the argument.
As to the Evils of Sharia Law, in the US we know there are innocent humans on death row, we release them all the time, yet we are willing to let a few innocents be strapped to a gurney and have lethal dose of poisons injected into their arms....or better yet shoot a bolt of lightning into their bodies so that we get the sweet taste of revenge. Are we really any better?
In the USA everyone has there day in court (though unless they have money they do not always get a fair trial, but that is another thread). If they are a child molester or rapist I DO agree with the death penalty
( just my opinion). Would you want to live in say Egypt, Iran or any other Arab country?
Yes everyone has their day in court, but you know innocent people will die because there is no fool proof system so you are in essence okay with putting innocent people to death at the expense of our thirst for revenge, same as stoning someone in Iran.
Would I like to live in Egypt, Iran or any other Arab country, well no, I’m an American and my culture and norms fit this country. Now if I where Egyptian I’d probably want to live in Egypt. Get it?
callen
Now now....delusional??? My line of reasoning is evolution takes time....and getting all hot and bothered about anothers culture is not going to help things.
Only getting hot and bothered when they try to impose there Sharia culture in America, and rightly so!
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
As to the Evils of Sharia Law, in the US we know there are innocent humans on death row, we release them all the time, yet we are willing to let a few innocents be strapped to a gurney and have lethal dose of poisons injected into their arms....or better yet shoot a bolt of lightning into their bodies so that we get the sweet taste of revenge. Are we really any better?
I do not support the death penalty - I am very much opposed to it - and luckily I do not live in a country where it is practiced. I do not understand your point at all. Yes, the US is better in terms of human rights, despite their disgusting and embarrassing laws re the death penalty. By a LOOOOOONNNNG shot. If you don't think so, then you must be delusional or something. Either way, I just don't get this whole line of reasoning. What difference does it make to this issue if there are other wrongs happening in the world? Do you subscribe to the 2 wrongs make a right theory, or is it the 'well if everyone else is doing it, then it's okay' theory? :?
Now now....delusional??? My line of reasoning is evolution takes time....and getting all hot and bothered about anothers culture is not going to help things. And all this behavior sucks just think we need to look into the mirror before we rant about others.
I feel totally FINE about getting hot and bothered about this. I am a woman talking about rights for women. Would you tell a black person talking about civil rights for black people not to get hot and bothered about it? How about Jews about antisemitism? Or gay people getting hot and bothered about gay rights around the world? Because this is NO different (actually, it is - the problem is much more dire and widespread in the case of women). NO ONE should be patient about these kinds of things!!!
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
callen....... I get it......Do you get it that there are Islamic compounds in U.S.A Training for Jihad? do you want Sharia here in America?
Post edited by aerial on
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
callen
Now now....delusional??? My line of reasoning is evolution takes time....and getting all hot and bothered about anothers culture is not going to help things.
Only getting hot and bothered when they try to impose there Sharia culture in America, and rightly so!
With you 100% and any laws based on theocracy need to be abolished but it will take time. Look at all the good Muslims that drink and go to boobie bars in the west once they leave their homeland. Sex Drugs and Rock n Roll will win out...will just take time. We can't though drop bombs or get all hatefull cause those wanting to keep up the charade wil use this. Peace and love....or and rock in roll.
I want Islamoburgh to get a football team. They can name their team 'The Islamoburgh Americans'... you know, sort of like the 'Vikings' or the 'Redskins'.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
callen
Now now....delusional??? My line of reasoning is evolution takes time....and getting all hot and bothered about anothers culture is not going to help things.
Only getting hot and bothered when they try to impose there Sharia culture in America, and rightly so!
With you 100% and any laws based on theocracy need to be abolished but it will take time. Look at all the good Muslims that drink and go to boobie bars in the west once they leave their homeland. Sex Drugs and Rock n Roll will win out...will just take time. We can't though drop bombs or get all hatefull cause those wanting to keep up the charade wil use this. Peace and love....or and rock in roll.
I worked with three guys who came from India, within a year of being here the turbans disappeared and they were eating bacon cheese burgers, true story.
callen
Now now....delusional??? My line of reasoning is evolution takes time....and getting all hot and bothered about anothers culture is not going to help things.
Only getting hot and bothered when they try to impose there Sharia culture in America, and rightly so!
With you 100% and any laws based on theocracy need to be abolished but it will take time. Look at all the good Muslims that drink and go to boobie bars in the west once they leave their homeland. Sex Drugs and Rock n Roll will win out...will just take time. We can't though drop bombs or get all hatefull cause those wanting to keep up the charade wil use this. Peace and love....or and rock in roll.
LOL! Here's a wild guess. You have to be in your 20's and all idealistic. Did you know the hijackers on 9/11 drank and went to a boobie bar before they hit the twin towers. Sex Drugs and Rock and Roll is not quite the answer to Sharia.
p.s. I used to love that saying!
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
LOL! Here's a wild guess. You have to be in your 20's and all idealistic. Did you know the hijackers on 9/11 drank and went to a boobie bar before they hit the twin towers. Sex Drugs and Rock and Roll is not quite the answer to Sharia.
p.s. I used to love that saying!
I WISH I was in my twenties....or even my thirties....oh well. Guess I need to become fear filled conservative white dude to fit my age. Why continue to make this personal? Lets discuss issues not each other.
I don't much care what the extremist 911 highjackers did prior to blowing themselves up and don't think we should create policy based on what this small minority did. Most Muslims care about shelter, food, family and recreation just like us.......counter to what Fox wants you to beleive.
I find it very unsettling that even the people here trying to argue against the monolithic representation that Shari`ah has among most of you posters, have a racist way of doing so. The way that you all sit here and casually talk about Arabs and Muslims "evolving" to a level considered by your measure to be civilized is so distasteful, and it really makes me think I'm wasting my time trying to lecture a bunch of bigots.
PJ_Soul, you have absolutely no right to talk about Islam's position on women just because you were born with a vagina. I'm sorry, but that's absolute nonsense. It is not AT ALL like a black man trying to speak about civil rights. Black people in the United States actually were, on a large scale, treated awfully by law. Racism in the United States was institutionalized (and whether the correct verb is "was" or "is" is also up for debate).
On the other hand, you did not experience life as a Muslim woman in a Muslim community. And I don't care how many random, uncorroborated anecdotes you pull out, because when it comes down to it, that is not credible as actual evidence. Engaging the texts and actually discussing whether Islam inherently treats women poorly (the way the United States government did with black people) is how to prove your point, and so far you have absolutely not done anything remotely close to that. Your arguments are just based off of conjecture and show a very clear misunderstanding of the most basic concepts that constitute what Shari`ah even is at its most basic core.
Furthermore, all credible polls conducted in the Middle East show that the overwhelming populations of these countries want Shari`ah-based policies and equality, justice, freedom, etc etc. The difference is, they don't want equality and justice based off of Western liberal principles, because they have a different culture and society. So far, the countries where sexism is rampant in the Middle East were/are autocratic regimes, almost always kept in power by the United States and Europe. If democracy actually entered these countries, and the societies determined the laws, it would be completely different. It is possible to have a civic state with Islamic reference that treats women equally and Islamicly (Islamically?). You would not know this because you have not actually done any research. You are too blinded by your own Western liberal feminism that you can't even comprehend the notion that someone else in another culture can view things entirely differently and be content with it. It's not that Muslim societies are behind us and need to evolve and catch up, it's that they are on another spectrum altogether, and they do not care how we judge them. They prefer to live the way their own society wishes. Perhaps we should respect that.
I recommended you read Politics of Piety to see that there is a different feminism out there that Muslim women seek, through Islam. I also recommend now that you check out Who Speaks for Islam? by John Esposito. It's a very short and easy read that goes through Gallup polls conducted in the Muslim world, and shows that Muslims overwhelmingly believe in the same general notions of gender equality and so on, but they base it off of Islam. Religion can actually be a force for good, despite all your ill intentions toward it based off of the Western experience.
NOT agreeing with Terrorism is not hate mongering or racist.......knowing who the terrorist are and there agenda is Cool (as you put it)
But I am not trying to be cool.....I am informing those that care not to fund terrorism....OK?
Terrorism is the deliberate targeting of civilians in order to spread fear. This is exactly what the Israeli's have been doing to the Palestinians. So how does that fit into your little scheme of things?
Also, the woman who you appear to be getting all of your disinformation from - Debbie Schlussel (including the notion that Muslims are sodomites and pedophiles) says that those people - "these hateful, privileged brats" - killed at Utoya in Norway by Anders Brevik, deserved what they got because they were "HAMAS collaborators" who "sided with Jew-killers". Do you agree with her?
NOT agreeing with Terrorism is not hate mongering or racist.......knowing who the terrorist are and there agenda is Cool (as you put it)
But I am not trying to be cool.....I am informing those that care not to fund terrorism....OK?
Terrorism is the deliberate targeting of civilians in order to spread fear. This is exactly what the Israeli's have been doing to the Palestinians. So how does that fit into your little scheme of things?
Also, the woman who you appear to be getting all of your disinformation from - Debbie Schlussel (including the notion that Muslims are sodomites and pedophiles) says that those people - "these hateful, privileged brats" - killed at Utoya in Norway by Anders Brevik, deserved what they got because they were "HAMAS collaborators" who "sided with Jew-killers". Do you agree with her?
Dude, do you know what Debbie Schlussel does? It's almost comical. She finds an article of, say, a person, who happens to be Muslim or have a Muslim name, and who did something like, say, masturbate while driving and cause an accident. She'll post the article on her website under the title "RELIGION OF MASTURBATING DRIVERS WHO CAUSE ACCIDENTS."
Yeah, she's actually that nutty. It'd be way more hilarious if so many people didn't actually take her seriously. America, what a special place this is.
I find it very unsettling that even the people here trying to argue against the monolithic representation that Shari`ah has among most of you posters, have a racist way of doing so. The way that you all sit here and casually talk about Arabs and Muslims "evolving" to a level considered by your measure to be civilized is so distasteful, and it really makes me think I'm wasting my time trying to lecture a bunch of bigots.
PJ_Soul, you have absolutely no right to talk about Islam's position on women just because you were born with a vagina. I'm sorry, but that's absolute nonsense. It is not AT ALL like a black man trying to speak about civil rights. Black people in the United States actually were, on a large scale, treated awfully by law. Racism in the United States was institutionalized (and whether the correct verb is "was" or "is" is also up for debate).
On the other hand, you did not experience life as a Muslim woman in a Muslim community. And I don't care how many random, uncorroborated anecdotes you pull out, because when it comes down to it, that is not credible as actual evidence. Engaging the texts and actually discussing whether Islam inherently treats women poorly (the way the United States government did with black people) is how to prove your point, and so far you have absolutely not done anything remotely close to that. Your arguments are just based off of conjecture and show a very clear misunderstanding of the most basic concepts that constitute what Shari`ah even is at its most basic core.
Furthermore, all credible polls conducted in the Middle East show that the overwhelming populations of these countries want Shari`ah-based policies and equality, justice, freedom, etc etc. The difference is, they don't want equality and justice based off of Western liberal principles, because they have a different culture and society. So far, the countries where sexism is rampant in the Middle East were/are autocratic regimes, almost always kept in power by the United States and Europe. If democracy actually entered these countries, and the societies determined the laws, it would be completely different. It is possible to have a civic state with Islamic reference that treats women equally and Islamicly (Islamically?). You would not know this because you have not actually done any research. You are too blinded by your own Western liberal feminism that you can't even comprehend the notion that someone else in another culture can view things entirely differently and be content with it. It's not that Muslim societies are behind us and need to evolve and catch up, it's that they are on another spectrum altogether, and they do not care how we judge them. They prefer to live the way their own society wishes. Perhaps we should respect that.
I recommended you read Politics of Piety to see that there is a different feminism out there that Muslim women seek, through Islam. I also recommend now that you check out Who Speaks for Islam? by John Esposito. It's a very short and easy read that goes through Gallup polls conducted in the Muslim world, and shows that Muslims overwhelmingly believe in the same general notions of gender equality and so on, but they base it off of Islam. Religion can actually be a force for good, despite all your ill intentions toward it based off of the Western experience.
I actually have every right to talk about women's rights in the world because i have a vagina, because that actually does mean I am a woman. And uh, yeah, women have been and are treated awfully and it has been and is legal. On a massive scale. I see the subjection of women is one of the biggest civil and human rights crises in the world (andnit makes me mad that so many or so uncaring about it), and I am a member of that group. I am fortunate enough to not live it myself in any extreme way (which does not come close to having not experienced the percieved in equality of women), but that does NOT mean the rights of all women don't affect me. And that i'm ruled by western feminist views.. um, and??? Yes i am ruled by these views on equality for more than 50% of the world's population that needs to be reinforced around the world! Thank you!
I'm sorry, but you have absolutely no fucking idea what you're talking about when it comes to that issue. You have no clue. And actually, your view is kind of offensive and outrageously dismissive of the issue. It is all too obvious that you think you do, but you don't (and you delay think the same of me), so there isn't any need to discuss it anymore.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I actually have every right to talk about women's rights in the world because i have a vagina, because that actually does mean I am a woman. And uh, yeah, women have been and are treated awfully and it has been and is legal. On a massive scale. I see the subjection of women is one of the biggest civil and human rights crises in the world (andnit makes me mad that so many or so uncaring about it), and I am a member of that group. I am fortunate enough to not live it myself in any extreme way (which does not come close to having not experienced the percieved in equality of women), but that does NOT mean the rights of all women don't affect me. And that i'm ruled by western feminist views.. um, and??? Yes i am ruled by these views on equality for more than 50% of the world's population that needs to be reinforced around the world! Thank you!
I'm sorry, but you have absolutely no fucking idea what you're talking about when it comes to that issue. You have no clue. And actually, your view is kind of offensive and outrageously dismissive of the issue. It is all too obvious that you think you do, but you don't (and you delay think the same of me), so there isn't any need to discuss it anymore.
Well, I seem to have set you off. You're so angry, you were probably typing too fast and some of your sentences don't really make sense. You were also so angry that you didn't even carefully read what I wrote, so your response was 2 short paragraphs of you ranting, a bunch of stuff not really relevant to the discussion. I never said you have no right to talk about women's issues or rights or equality. I said, "PJ_Soul, you have absolutely no right to talk about Islam's position on women just because you were born with a vagina." Everyone has the right to say whatever they want, obviously, and to be concerned with issues they can relate to. If you read this calmly however, you'd see what my point is. You are not a Muslim, have not lived in a Muslim country or community, and do not fully (or in my opinion, even partially) understand the religion, the culture there, or anything like that. So you going around and preaching is absolutely ridiculous, because you can't even relate to the majority of women who live in these societies! The majority of women in these societies want Islam and do not find in it the same nonsense you do. In conclusion, you have no right to claim to speak for these women, or for the betterment of them, if you do not respect their wishes and beliefs. It is bigoted to say you are more "advanced" than a society (evident in the way you casually speak of these societies' need to "evolve" to your level), without fully understanding how religion, culture, politics and autocracy, society, etc, all fit in in this region and produce what you see.
No one is saying that women don't face so many issues in this world that need to be dealt with. Frankly, that's the most simple thing in this thread and I think everyone enters this thread acting on that premise (at least, most rational people). The issue here goes beyond that, so let's try to expand our thinking, to what is preventing women's rights from materializing in the world? Obviously, there are some universal rules that are equal wherever you go, and there are rules relative to each culture, each society, even each city or village. So when a white woman from Canada decides she's going to proclaim Islam as the most evil thing to happen to women, there's a serious problem there. You haven't actually studied it, your opinion is based off of random and uncorroborated anecdotes, and a Western, liberal perspective, which you even admitted to. As such, you cannot proclaim your liberal ideal as ultimate, supreme, and universal. Different societies like to choose the way they live. Isn't that what democracy is all about? You should focus on the sexism rampant in your society, not others'. If you want to talk about the ills of Islam then study the religion, or else don't say anything at all. Isn't that what your mama taught you?
I actually have every right to talk about women's rights in the world because i have a vagina, because that actually does mean I am a woman. And uh, yeah, women have been and are treated awfully and it has been and is legal. On a massive scale. I see the subjection of women is one of the biggest civil and human rights crises in the world (andnit makes me mad that so many or so uncaring about it), and I am a member of that group. I am fortunate enough to not live it myself in any extreme way (which does not come close to having not experienced the percieved in equality of women), but that does NOT mean the rights of all women don't affect me. And that i'm ruled by western feminist views.. um, and??? Yes i am ruled by these views on equality for more than 50% of the world's population that needs to be reinforced around the world! Thank you!
I'm sorry, but you have absolutely no fucking idea what you're talking about when it comes to that issue. You have no clue. And actually, your view is kind of offensive and outrageously dismissive of the issue. It is all too obvious that you think you do, but you don't (and you delay think the same of me), so there isn't any need to discuss it anymore.
Well, I seem to have set you off. You're so angry, you were probably typing too fast and some of your sentences don't really make sense. You were also so angry that you didn't even carefully read what I wrote, so your response was 2 short paragraphs of you ranting, a bunch of stuff not really relevant to the discussion. I never said you have no right to talk about women's issues or rights or equality. I said, "PJ_Soul, you have absolutely no right to talk about Islam's position on women just because you were born with a vagina." Everyone has the right to say whatever they want, obviously, and to be concerned with issues they can relate to. If you read this calmly however, you'd see what my point is. You are not a Muslim, have not lived in a Muslim country or community, and do not fully (or in my opinion, even partially) understand the religion, the culture there, or anything like that. So you going around and preaching is absolutely ridiculous, because you can't even relate to the majority of women who live in these societies! The majority of women in these societies want Islam and do not find in it the same nonsense you do. In conclusion, you have no right to claim to speak for these women, or for the betterment of them, if you do not respect their wishes and beliefs. It is bigoted to say you are more "advanced" than a society (evident in the way you casually speak of these societies' need to "evolve" to your level), without fully understanding how religion, culture, politics and autocracy, society, etc, all fit in in this region and produce what you see.
No one is saying that women don't face so many issues in this world that need to be dealt with. Frankly, that's the most simple thing in this thread and I think everyone enters this thread acting on that premise (at least, most rational people). The issue here goes beyond that, so let's try to expand our thinking, to what is preventing women's rights from materializing in the world? Obviously, there are some universal rules that are equal wherever you go, and there are rules relative to each culture, each society, even each city or village. So when a white woman from Canada decides she's going to proclaim Islam as the most evil thing to happen to women, there's a serious problem there. You haven't actually studied it, your opinion is based off of random and uncorroborated anecdotes, and a Western, liberal perspective, which you even admitted to. As such, you cannot proclaim your liberal ideal as ultimate, supreme, and universal. Different societies like to choose the way they live. Isn't that what democracy is all about? You should focus on the sexism rampant in your society, not others'. If you want to talk about the ills of Islam then study the religion, or else don't say anything at all. Isn't that what your mama taught you?
I read everything. Also, I am a victim of predictive text on a smartphone sometimes, and it's hard to edit - anger has nothing to do with some of the wrong words in there.
Yes, you said: "PJ_Soul, you have absolutely no right to talk about Islam's position on women just because you were born with a vagina." I DO have a right, just as anyone who is a member of a subjected group has a right to speak on it. That they're Muslim does not change that at all, and that you think it does, and that my understanding of women's rights for Muslim women is meaningless, then it proves that you don't understand. Just wondering, what gives YOU the right to speak on the topic?? You are male, you do not live in the Middle East... What gives YOU the right, and what then makes you think that I don't have it? Again, You have NO IDEA what you're talking about, and I actually think your viewpoint on this issue is pretty fucked up and more than a little ignorant. You can spew all the academic bullshit you want about Islamic history and development (as though we don't know it), but that doesn't mean you know anything about the issue of equality for women in the world; that it is from within Islam or not has much less bearing that you seem to think.
You make A LOT of assumptions. You shouldn't try to read between lines, because you are pretty bad at it. And I know a lot about Muslim culture (I already told you that one of my best friends ever, and who I was roommates with, AND had a relationship with, is Muslim. I know many Muslims, and discuss issues like this with them. If they read what you have posted, then would all roll their eyes and say that you are full of crap. I am not just making shit up or translating from Western media sources. You keep going on and on as though you have special knowledge, but you are not in fact saying anything that people here don't already know.
I'm not an angry person at all - anyone here who knows me at all knows that. But your attitude is definitely irritating me, because you ARE dismissive of the issue of women's right in the Islamic world (or anywhere in the world, and I think it's ridiculous that you think you can speak with authority on that subject somehow, and tell a women that she can't understand this issue better than you can - in fact, you have VERY little understanding about it (but I know you will go on thinking you have more than me; that's so arrogant, but whatever). Yes, there is a bigger issue of various perceptions of the Muslim world, but I'm talking about a very specific issue, and that seems perfectly okay to me). What causes the lack of rights for women in the Muslim world is obviously an issue, but also irrelevant. It is an issue such as this that DOES actually need to be confronted head on, not gently. Outrage towards, not an attempt at understanding the reasons behind it, are what encourages this kind of change. You seem to think that it should be dealt with by mincing around it, discussing whether or not Muslim women are okay with it, blah blah blah. That is NOT how one needs to confront this issue, and while I'm sorry equality for women in the Middle East is too simple a concept for you to discuss directly, I maintain that it is THE NUMBER ONE issue that should be discussed when thinking of problem within the region. But no need for us to go on about it - no point either of us says to one another will have any impact, so what's the point?
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I want Islamoburgh to get a football team. They can name their team 'The Islamoburgh Americans'... you know, sort of like the 'Vikings' or the 'Redskins'.
It's funny because it's true.
Hmm, well, not sure about the Vikings part. Might have to 'splain that one for me.
Yes, you said: "PJ_Soul, you have absolutely no right to talk about Islam's position on women just because you were born with a vagina." I DO have a right, just as anyone who is a member of a subjected group has a right to speak on it. That they're Muslim does not change that at all, and that you think it does, and that my understanding of women's rights for Muslim women is meaningless, then it proves that you don't understand.
But the fact that they are Muslim DOES change everything, because you are blaming Islam for their subjugation! How is this not obvious?
Just wondering, what gives YOU the right to speak on the topic?? You are male, you do not live in the Middle East... What gives YOU the right, and what then makes you think that I don't have it? Again, You have NO IDEA what you're talking about, and I actually think your viewpoint on this issue is pretty fucked up and more than a little ignorant. You can spew all the academic bullshit you want about Islamic history and development (as though we don't know it), but that doesn't mean you know anything about the issue of equality for women in the world; that it is from within Islam or not has much less bearing that you seem to think.
First of all, I never said I had the right to, and I never said you don't have the right to. What I said was, just because you happen to be a woman, does not necessarily grant you the right to speak about Islam's position on women. So, since you seem to be curious, what does grant someone that? First of all, whether I am male or female should not impact this. A male can definitely speak about gender inequality and do a fine job at it. And I don't live in the Middle East? I actually have for several years where I also studied, and I maintain ties that take me back there almost every year. I'm fluent in the language so I read the media and texts that are produced from there, and my primary study interests are History, and specifically Islam and the Middle East. I am quite surprised you find my viewpoint "fucked up" and "ignorant" because all I have said is that there is nothing inherent in the religion of Islam that subjugates women, and you have not proven that there is. I have never questioned the idea that women are mistreated or anything. In fact, I have on several occasions in my posts agreed that gender inequality is a problem worldwide, as well as in the Middle East. What I am disputing is the reason for this--you unequivocally attributed this gender inequality to Islam and I disagree. This does not have much less bearing because finding the reason for why women are subjugated, just as finding the reason for why any injustice in the world persists, is the first act in trying to confront it. What is so difficult to understand about that?
You make A LOT of assumptions. You shouldn't try to read between lines, because you are pretty bad at it. And I know a lot about Muslim culture (I already told you that one of my best friends ever, and who I was roommates with, AND had a relationship with, is Muslim. I know many Muslims, and discuss issues like this with them. If they read what you have posted, then would all roll their eyes and say that you are full of crap. I am not just making shit up or translating from Western media sources. You keep going on and on as though you have special knowledge, but you are not in fact saying anything that people here don't already know.
Again with the anecdotes, as if it is supposed to be evidence. I don't really care what some random Muslim friends of yours personally think because what I am concerned with is what the majority of Muslims in the Middle East think--you know, based off of actual statistics and surveys conducted--and the fact is, they do not find Islam as a force for evil and the subjugation of women, they actually believe that they can have Islamic based legislation and gender equality.
I'm not an angry person at all - anyone here who knows me at all knows that. But your attitude is definitely irritating me, because you ARE dismissive of the issue of women's right in the Islamic world (or anywhere in the world, and I think it's ridiculous that you think you can speak with authority on that subject somehow, and tell a women that she can't understand this issue better than you can - in fact, you have VERY little understanding about it (but I know you will go on thinking you have more than me; that's so arrogant, but whatever). Yes, there is a bigger issue of various perceptions of the Muslim world, but I'm talking about a very specific issue, and that seems perfectly okay to me). What causes the lack of rights for women in the Muslim world is obviously an issue, but also irrelevant.
What? I've never once been dismissive of women's rights in the Muslim world. It's ironic that you say I'm making a lot of assumptions about you, and without wasting a breath you go and do the same thing. Please produce any quote from me where I dismissed women's rights--it will be difficult because I haven't. I am only questioning the extra step you took. You say, women's rights in the Middle East is a major issue that needs to be dealt with. I agree. Then, you say, the reason women's rights in the Middle East are so awful is because of Islam. This is where I step in and question your methodology. What cases the lack of rights is not "irrelevant," it is THE issue that should be resolved. Otherwise, we're just a bunch of ducks quacking "women have no rights, women have no rights, women have no rights" without having any intellectual discussion about WHY that's the case, or what can be done.
It is an issue such as this that DOES actually need to be confronted head on, not gently. Outrage towards, not an attempt at understanding the reasons behind it, are what encourages this kind of change. You seem to think that it should be dealt with by mincing around it, discussing whether or not Muslim women are okay with it, blah blah blah. That is NOT how one needs to confront this issue, and while I'm sorry equality for women in the Middle East is too simple a concept for you to discuss directly, I maintain that it is THE NUMBER ONE issue that should be discussed when thinking of problem within the region. But no need for us to go on about it - no point either of us says to one another will have any impact, so what's the point?
Lol, I never said we should mince around anything. Anger is fine, but anger should be directed at the right place. Blaming Islam without once engaging the texts like the Qur'an and the Prophetic sayings is just pure nonsense and conjecture. I never said women's issues in the Middle East is too simple a concept to discuss directly, and in fact, I have only been trying to think of how to discuss it correctly (as in, what are the actual contributing factors to their position?).
Comments
It's not cool, and it's definitely not clever.
O.k.
Let's learn a bit more about the woman who you appear to be getting all of your 'information' from:
http://mondoweiss.net/2011/08/meet-debb ... -them.html
Meet Debbie Schlussel, who says Norway’s ‘HAMAS Youth’ got what was coming to them
by Paul Mutter on August 5, 2011
One of Pamela Geller's cohorts, Debbie Schlussel, has explicitly stated that those killed at Utoya got what was coming to them because they were "HAMAS Youth" and (at the same time) "Fatah PLO" terrorists.
Schlussel may not be as well-known as Geller (perhaps because Schlussel has not exercised a leading role in anything as prominent as the "Ground Zero Mosque" furor), but she is a politically active Republican and more mainstream than Geller because she is also a culture writer with a strong media presence. (Not that she separates this work from her anti-Islamic campaign - she has criticized the film industry for not doing enough to portray Islam "correctly").
Her opinion on the Norway terror attacks can be summed up with these quotes taken from her ongoing screeds against the terror victims:
"Based on these pics, seems like he’s [Glenn Beck's] spot on, though he should have added, HAMAS Youth camp, too. As we all know, Nazis boycotted Jews and were Jew-killers. And these hateful, privileged brats at the camp boycotted Jews and sided with Jew-killers.
But what goes around comes around. You support terrorists against innocent civilians in Israel, then you get attacked by terrorists who are upset with your support . . . .
Frankly, the HAMAS charter and HAMAS’ behavior, all of which these kids at the Norwegian HAMAS youth camp cheered on, is a lot more scary than the screed and deeds of Breivik . . . .
I shed no tears for these HAMASnik campers with a Scandinavian dialect. Perpetrators are not victims. Sorry. HAMAS collaborators don’t get my pity. They never will."
Far stronger words than Geller was willing to use. But they are par for the course as far as Schlussel is concerned.
Her prominence derives from her utility to the male conservative-dominated anti-Islamic movement. The fact that she is a woman (and also the daughter of Holocaust survivors) speaking out against Islam gives greater credence to an ideological group whose most well-known speakers are white Christian males like Newt Gingrich, Geert Wilders and Pat Robertson (the movement is, as a whole, dominated by sociopolitically conservative men, although many are not Christians).
Gingrich and Robertson, for instance, denounce Islamic attitudes towards women, while still being hostile to "feminism" under the cloak of "family values." Having women on their anti-Islamic bandwagon helps prove their "point" about Islamic backwardness and their moral righteousness, which is a combination of faux-progressivism (treating Geller and Schlussel as intellectual co-equals) and paternalism (evoking Orientalist images of rapacious Muslim brutes). A similar logic animates the GOP embrace of Sarah Palin, Ann Coulter and Michele Bachmann. Schlussel and Geller, among others, are useful for the right (while at the same time, they castigate individuals on the left for being Islam's "useful idiots").
But back to Schlussel's own anti-Islamic agenda. Before this most recent denunciation of insufficiently Zionist individuals, she famously responded to Osama bin Laden's death by quipping "1 down, 1.8 billion to go." When a family of West Bank settlers were murdered earlier this year, she approvingly quoted PM Netanyahu's son's remarks that "terror has a religion and it is Islam” and “not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims."
Schlussel is an ardent Zionist - Hamas and Fatah are basically the same thing, in her analysis, and are dedicated to ending Israel forever. With this in mind, few individuals or institutions are pro-Israel enough for her: Republican Governor Chris Christie, for instance, is "Hamas GOP" because he appointed Pakistani-American Sohail Mohammed, a Muslim attorney who defended individuals (including Hamas supporters) that the federal government sought to extradite from the U.S. after 9/11, to the NJ State Supreme Court. Whole Foods is "anti-Israel" because it sells fair trade products from Palestinian farmers in the West Bank and has dared to wish its customers a good Ramadan (there is ill-intent behind this marketing ploy, of course). And, like Robert Spencer and Pat Robertson, she believes that mainstream media is "anti-American" (and thus, anti-Western) and panders to Islam because it is anti-Semitic, anti-Christian and anti-Western.
Both Congressmen Ron Paul (who has called for a U.S. withdraw from the Middle East and an end to the US$3 billion in aid Washington sends Israel annually) and Dennis Kucinich (who condemned the Israeli assault on the first Freedom Flotilla) are "for" Hamas, according to Schlussel. That a libertarian who caucuses with the GOP and one of the most lefit-wing members of the Democratic Party are somehow colluding to advance Hamas's agenda is well within the realm of possibility for Schlussel: either you are with Israel (and the West - which, by extension, means you're "with" civilization), or against it. For Schlussel, no Muslim can ever be "for" those things.
As Southern Poverty Law Center's Hate Watch asked in its coverage of her work, why did Schlussel even bother saying that she doesn't support Anders Breivik when she says that "I can’t feel sorry for those who support my would-be assassins. And I don’t get too upset when they face the karma that is their fate."
No time to read all your blaa blaa blaa now......but I will later
Can you prove this is not true
Edible Arrangements: Muslim Owners of Fruit Basket Company Fund HAMAS, Jihadist Extremism
NOT agreeing with Terrorism is not hate mongering or racist.......knowing who the terrorist are and there agenda is Cool (as you put it)
But I am not trying to be cool.....I am informing those that care not to fund terrorism....OK?
Urban Dictionary.....hate monger
1.)A person who uses political beliefs or passions of any kind as a platform to express their hatred for another individual.
NOW who is the Hate Monger?
Here is an academic view point for you....some history....and Truth
The history of Islam in Europe and how it effects us to this day. This is a history based on numbers and facts that you may not see anywhere else and explains why we may be afraid to see Islam for what it is based on its own doctrine and practice.
http://www.globalinfidel.tv/video/why-we-are-afraid-a-1400-year-secret-by-dr-bill-warner-must-see?fb_action_ids=4454078482709&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=timeline_og&action_object_map=%7B%224454078482709%22%3A388506551214719%7D&action_type_map=%7B%224454078482709%22%3A%22og.likes%22%7D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D
Those that throw out "but the Crusaders killed people".....how many compared to Islamist? and who is still killing?
In the USA everyone has there day in court (though unless they have money they do not always get a fair trial, but that is another thread). If they are a child molester or rapist I DO agree with the death penalty
( just my opinion). Would you want to live in say Egypt, Iran or any other Arab country?
Yes everyone has their day in court, but you know innocent people will die because there is no fool proof system so you are in essence okay with putting innocent people to death at the expense of our thirst for revenge, same as stoning someone in Iran.
Would I like to live in Egypt, Iran or any other Arab country, well no, I’m an American and my culture and norms fit this country. Now if I where Egyptian I’d probably want to live in Egypt. Get it?
Only getting hot and bothered when they try to impose there Sharia culture in America, and rightly so!
With you 100% and any laws based on theocracy need to be abolished but it will take time. Look at all the good Muslims that drink and go to boobie bars in the west once they leave their homeland. Sex Drugs and Rock n Roll will win out...will just take time. We can't though drop bombs or get all hatefull cause those wanting to keep up the charade wil use this. Peace and love....or and rock in roll.
Hail, Hail!!!
I worked with three guys who came from India, within a year of being here the turbans disappeared and they were eating bacon cheese burgers, true story.
Same thing with young men and wanting to see scantily dresses women....okay and vice versa.
LOL! Here's a wild guess. You have to be in your 20's and all idealistic. Did you know the hijackers on 9/11 drank and went to a boobie bar before they hit the twin towers. Sex Drugs and Rock and Roll is not quite the answer to Sharia.
p.s. I used to love that saying!
I don't much care what the extremist 911 highjackers did prior to blowing themselves up and don't think we should create policy based on what this small minority did. Most Muslims care about shelter, food, family and recreation just like us.......counter to what Fox wants you to beleive.
PJ_Soul, you have absolutely no right to talk about Islam's position on women just because you were born with a vagina. I'm sorry, but that's absolute nonsense. It is not AT ALL like a black man trying to speak about civil rights. Black people in the United States actually were, on a large scale, treated awfully by law. Racism in the United States was institutionalized (and whether the correct verb is "was" or "is" is also up for debate).
On the other hand, you did not experience life as a Muslim woman in a Muslim community. And I don't care how many random, uncorroborated anecdotes you pull out, because when it comes down to it, that is not credible as actual evidence. Engaging the texts and actually discussing whether Islam inherently treats women poorly (the way the United States government did with black people) is how to prove your point, and so far you have absolutely not done anything remotely close to that. Your arguments are just based off of conjecture and show a very clear misunderstanding of the most basic concepts that constitute what Shari`ah even is at its most basic core.
Furthermore, all credible polls conducted in the Middle East show that the overwhelming populations of these countries want Shari`ah-based policies and equality, justice, freedom, etc etc. The difference is, they don't want equality and justice based off of Western liberal principles, because they have a different culture and society. So far, the countries where sexism is rampant in the Middle East were/are autocratic regimes, almost always kept in power by the United States and Europe. If democracy actually entered these countries, and the societies determined the laws, it would be completely different. It is possible to have a civic state with Islamic reference that treats women equally and Islamicly (Islamically?). You would not know this because you have not actually done any research. You are too blinded by your own Western liberal feminism that you can't even comprehend the notion that someone else in another culture can view things entirely differently and be content with it. It's not that Muslim societies are behind us and need to evolve and catch up, it's that they are on another spectrum altogether, and they do not care how we judge them. They prefer to live the way their own society wishes. Perhaps we should respect that.
I recommended you read Politics of Piety to see that there is a different feminism out there that Muslim women seek, through Islam. I also recommend now that you check out Who Speaks for Islam? by John Esposito. It's a very short and easy read that goes through Gallup polls conducted in the Muslim world, and shows that Muslims overwhelmingly believe in the same general notions of gender equality and so on, but they base it off of Islam. Religion can actually be a force for good, despite all your ill intentions toward it based off of the Western experience.
Terrorism is the deliberate targeting of civilians in order to spread fear. This is exactly what the Israeli's have been doing to the Palestinians. So how does that fit into your little scheme of things?
Also, the woman who you appear to be getting all of your disinformation from - Debbie Schlussel (including the notion that Muslims are sodomites and pedophiles) says that those people - "these hateful, privileged brats" - killed at Utoya in Norway by Anders Brevik, deserved what they got because they were "HAMAS collaborators" who "sided with Jew-killers". Do you agree with her?
Yeah, she's actually that nutty. It'd be way more hilarious if so many people didn't actually take her seriously. America, what a special place this is.
I'm sorry, but you have absolutely no fucking idea what you're talking about when it comes to that issue. You have no clue. And actually, your view is kind of offensive and outrageously dismissive of the issue. It is all too obvious that you think you do, but you don't (and you delay think the same of me), so there isn't any need to discuss it anymore.
No one is saying that women don't face so many issues in this world that need to be dealt with. Frankly, that's the most simple thing in this thread and I think everyone enters this thread acting on that premise (at least, most rational people). The issue here goes beyond that, so let's try to expand our thinking, to what is preventing women's rights from materializing in the world? Obviously, there are some universal rules that are equal wherever you go, and there are rules relative to each culture, each society, even each city or village. So when a white woman from Canada decides she's going to proclaim Islam as the most evil thing to happen to women, there's a serious problem there. You haven't actually studied it, your opinion is based off of random and uncorroborated anecdotes, and a Western, liberal perspective, which you even admitted to. As such, you cannot proclaim your liberal ideal as ultimate, supreme, and universal. Different societies like to choose the way they live. Isn't that what democracy is all about? You should focus on the sexism rampant in your society, not others'. If you want to talk about the ills of Islam then study the religion, or else don't say anything at all. Isn't that what your mama taught you?
Yes, you said: "PJ_Soul, you have absolutely no right to talk about Islam's position on women just because you were born with a vagina." I DO have a right, just as anyone who is a member of a subjected group has a right to speak on it. That they're Muslim does not change that at all, and that you think it does, and that my understanding of women's rights for Muslim women is meaningless, then it proves that you don't understand. Just wondering, what gives YOU the right to speak on the topic?? You are male, you do not live in the Middle East... What gives YOU the right, and what then makes you think that I don't have it? Again, You have NO IDEA what you're talking about, and I actually think your viewpoint on this issue is pretty fucked up and more than a little ignorant. You can spew all the academic bullshit you want about Islamic history and development (as though we don't know it), but that doesn't mean you know anything about the issue of equality for women in the world; that it is from within Islam or not has much less bearing that you seem to think.
You make A LOT of assumptions. You shouldn't try to read between lines, because you are pretty bad at it. And I know a lot about Muslim culture (I already told you that one of my best friends ever, and who I was roommates with, AND had a relationship with, is Muslim. I know many Muslims, and discuss issues like this with them. If they read what you have posted, then would all roll their eyes and say that you are full of crap. I am not just making shit up or translating from Western media sources. You keep going on and on as though you have special knowledge, but you are not in fact saying anything that people here don't already know.
I'm not an angry person at all - anyone here who knows me at all knows that. But your attitude is definitely irritating me, because you ARE dismissive of the issue of women's right in the Islamic world (or anywhere in the world, and I think it's ridiculous that you think you can speak with authority on that subject somehow, and tell a women that she can't understand this issue better than you can - in fact, you have VERY little understanding about it (but I know you will go on thinking you have more than me; that's so arrogant, but whatever). Yes, there is a bigger issue of various perceptions of the Muslim world, but I'm talking about a very specific issue, and that seems perfectly okay to me). What causes the lack of rights for women in the Muslim world is obviously an issue, but also irrelevant. It is an issue such as this that DOES actually need to be confronted head on, not gently. Outrage towards, not an attempt at understanding the reasons behind it, are what encourages this kind of change. You seem to think that it should be dealt with by mincing around it, discussing whether or not Muslim women are okay with it, blah blah blah. That is NOT how one needs to confront this issue, and while I'm sorry equality for women in the Middle East is too simple a concept for you to discuss directly, I maintain that it is THE NUMBER ONE issue that should be discussed when thinking of problem within the region. But no need for us to go on about it - no point either of us says to one another will have any impact, so what's the point?
Hmm, well, not sure about the Vikings part. Might have to 'splain that one for me.
First of all, I never said I had the right to, and I never said you don't have the right to. What I said was, just because you happen to be a woman, does not necessarily grant you the right to speak about Islam's position on women. So, since you seem to be curious, what does grant someone that? First of all, whether I am male or female should not impact this. A male can definitely speak about gender inequality and do a fine job at it. And I don't live in the Middle East? I actually have for several years where I also studied, and I maintain ties that take me back there almost every year. I'm fluent in the language so I read the media and texts that are produced from there, and my primary study interests are History, and specifically Islam and the Middle East. I am quite surprised you find my viewpoint "fucked up" and "ignorant" because all I have said is that there is nothing inherent in the religion of Islam that subjugates women, and you have not proven that there is. I have never questioned the idea that women are mistreated or anything. In fact, I have on several occasions in my posts agreed that gender inequality is a problem worldwide, as well as in the Middle East. What I am disputing is the reason for this--you unequivocally attributed this gender inequality to Islam and I disagree. This does not have much less bearing because finding the reason for why women are subjugated, just as finding the reason for why any injustice in the world persists, is the first act in trying to confront it. What is so difficult to understand about that?
Again with the anecdotes, as if it is supposed to be evidence. I don't really care what some random Muslim friends of yours personally think because what I am concerned with is what the majority of Muslims in the Middle East think--you know, based off of actual statistics and surveys conducted--and the fact is, they do not find Islam as a force for evil and the subjugation of women, they actually believe that they can have Islamic based legislation and gender equality.
What? I've never once been dismissive of women's rights in the Muslim world. It's ironic that you say I'm making a lot of assumptions about you, and without wasting a breath you go and do the same thing. Please produce any quote from me where I dismissed women's rights--it will be difficult because I haven't. I am only questioning the extra step you took. You say, women's rights in the Middle East is a major issue that needs to be dealt with. I agree. Then, you say, the reason women's rights in the Middle East are so awful is because of Islam. This is where I step in and question your methodology. What cases the lack of rights is not "irrelevant," it is THE issue that should be resolved. Otherwise, we're just a bunch of ducks quacking "women have no rights, women have no rights, women have no rights" without having any intellectual discussion about WHY that's the case, or what can be done.
Lol, I never said we should mince around anything. Anger is fine, but anger should be directed at the right place. Blaming Islam without once engaging the texts like the Qur'an and the Prophetic sayings is just pure nonsense and conjecture. I never said women's issues in the Middle East is too simple a concept to discuss directly, and in fact, I have only been trying to think of how to discuss it correctly (as in, what are the actual contributing factors to their position?).