and i'm sorry but how can we fix the problem if we don't know what it is!? ... ok - so, you agree its greenhouse gases ... well ... don't you think we need to know if its man made or naturally occurring? ... how else do you fix a problem!? ... it's like you have a gas leak in your car ... don't you want to know where it's leaking?
Al Gore isn't a talking point to me, and I don't listen to Mitt Romney or what he has to say to be honest. I just know his platform from the early debates where I didn't hear him mention Gore. Big Al is a prime example of someone EXPLOITING a situation in my opinion. I don't care about the size of a man's house. I know only people on the right can be hypocritical so I probably shouldn't judge him.
At what point in my argument did I make it sound like I didn't think something should be done? I just used the phrase both sides and you exploded on me with oil companies and the helpless folks who want to save the polar bears. Pointing out GE was a simple way of showing you that people and groups are out there that take advantage of the green initiatives for personal gain. It looked like to me that you made it seem like they didn't exist.
Talking point or not, Solyndra is an example of a company that took millions for green initiatives. Don't think they did that out of the goodness of their hearts, I believe they did it for personal gain. They perceived a need and tried to fill it and got money to do so. didn't work out, but they didn't do it for any other reason than profit. Solyndra isn't alone, i am not going to list them here nor do I think it is pertinent to the discussion.
I don't think the question is valid anymore. It has gone from greenhouse gas being a possible cause to arguing over whether it is man made or not...that tangent is not important IMO. It is likely both, so doing something about the emissions whether man is doing it or not is what is important. Does that make sense? I may not be saying it right but that is what I was trying to say and I don't really know another way to say it. So I don't think your example holds true...it is like I have a gas leak in my car, and after identifying the leak, instead of fixing it, I begin to argue over what caused it...either way it still needs to get fixed.
But apparently I am just spouting right wing talking points while AGREEING WITH YOU that we need to fix it I think maybe you disagreed with me too quickly because you are used to doing so
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
ok ... so you have a nail protruding into your gas line ... you gonna just fix the leak and ignore the nail? ... it is critical that we understand what the cause is otherwise - we can't find a solution ... it should be common sense and i'm really not sure how you can argue this ...
and i'm sorry if you didn't like being called out but tell me al gore isn't the right's favourite punching bag and solyndra isn't another favourite of the right!?? ... the both sides argument is frustrating because a) it's deflecting from the issue and b) it's akin to commenting on the palestinian conflict as both sides are wrong ... it isn't a critical examination of what reality is ... it's lazy imo ... it aims to negate what has happened that has brought us to this point ...
again - you can't fix a problem unless you know the cause ...
ok ... so you have a nail protruding into your gas line ... you gonna just fix the leak and ignore the nail? ... it is critical that we understand what the cause is otherwise - we can't find a solution ... it should be common sense and i'm really not sure how you can argue this ...
and i'm sorry if you didn't like being called out but tell me al gore isn't the right's favourite punching bag and solyndra isn't another favourite of the right!?? ... the both sides argument is frustrating because a) it's deflecting from the issue and b) it's akin to commenting on the palestinian conflict as both sides are wrong ... it isn't a critical examination of what reality is ... it's lazy imo ... it aims to negate what has happened that has brought us to this point ...
again - you can't fix a problem unless you know the cause ...
You didn't call me out as I don't spout talking points, so you mistakenly took what I was saying as simply falling back on old hats. The right's talking point of solyndra is for a completely different issue than global warming/climate change exploitation...It is a poster child of the right for the appearance of a sweat heart deal for a campaign contributor in the name of green energy. I used a general behavior of a company as an example of a green company (you named it solyndra, because it is known by most people I assume. Makes sense to use it because sometimes others read these posts and just need a quick reference rather than every company who ever took money for personal gain and failed.)
Your nail example is interesting, but changes the issue I think. If I were to use it, wouldn't it be better to fix the holes that we determined were caused by a nail, rather than trying to find out where I may have acquired the nail? Either way, right now my fuel is leaking and I can't do anything until I solve that problem. In climate change, the problem has been found hasn't it? Green house gases are the nail, correct? So why argue over where they come from, why not try to fix both holes? I wouldn't continually try to prove that nails were the cause of the hole in my tank, proving that once was enough. Now if I looked at the holes caused by the nail and only fixed one thinking it was going to solve the problem for ever, well then that is another story.
Pragmatism is often confused with laziness and giving in. It is neither. I must not be saying this correctly because I think if I could explain it in a way that made sense to you, you would agree with me.
AND, just for clarification purposes, I said both sides EXPLOIT the climate change argument for personal gain. I didn't say or mean ALL those involved exploit it...I listed a couple of examples of that exploitation, I didn't say that climate change deniers were right, but I don't think oil companies are the only ones acting in bad faith...i think either way we should do something about the gases, man made or not, it is/is going to affect us all.
*** I think I may see the flaw in my description. What I am trying to say is that the question of the cause seems to have been answered but its like the argument then switched so that we are still arguing about something rather than moving to solutions. Man made or not, shouldn't we try to solve green house gas emissions? That is my point.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
but yeah - it's always been about ignorance ... combine that with the lack of critical thinking and partisan indoctrination and you have a formula that basically allows corporations to dictate policy and public opinion ...
Think its more about selfishness and not wanting to change ones ways so you choose the position that best suits. In the end its all about evolution and the planet will ultimately survive...just with less cool animals......for a while anyway.
*** I think I may see the flaw in my description. What I am trying to say is that the question of the cause seems to have been answered but its like the argument then switched so that we are still arguing about something rather than moving to solutions. Man made or not, shouldn't we try to solve green house gas emissions? That is my point.
the cause is relevant because if people think that the greenhouse gases are naturally occurring - how the heck are you gonna offer solutions? ... if we can't agree that it is man made and it is related to industrialization, deforestation, environmental degradation, and wasteful energy consumption then how the heck do we fix it? ...
*** I think I may see the flaw in my description. What I am trying to say is that the question of the cause seems to have been answered but its like the argument then switched so that we are still arguing about something rather than moving to solutions. Man made or not, shouldn't we try to solve green house gas emissions? That is my point.
the cause is relevant because if people think that the greenhouse gases are naturally occurring - how the heck are you gonna offer solutions? ... if we can't agree that it is man made and it is related to industrialization, deforestation, environmental degradation, and wasteful energy consumption then how the heck do we fix it? ...
I see what you are saying. we have been throwing rocks at a mountain for quite a while trying it the way we are...maybe a change in message would help...Allow people to be part of the solution rather than feeling accused...too many times people here man made and they immediately get defensive as if you are saying they specifically caused it themselves...I don't know...human psychology is strange and a positive argument might be a better? I don't know for sure, I just know the way the message is delivered now has been neutralized and needs to change.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I see what you are saying. we have been throwing rocks at a mountain for quite a while trying it the way we are...maybe a change in message would help...Allow people to be part of the solution rather than feeling accused...too many times people here man made and they immediately get defensive as if you are saying they specifically caused it themselves...I don't know...human psychology is strange and a positive argument might be a better? I don't know for sure, I just know the way the message is delivered now has been neutralized and needs to change.
well ... i think the problem with that is that when you try and tailor the message - it just gives the opponents another avenue by which to add confusion ... take the term climate change for instance ... it was like we changed it from global warming to climate change so people didn't take a cold snap as proof it wasn't happening ... but in the end - all it did was allow opposing groups another opportunity to discredit the issue ...
a big part of the problem (like so many other issues) is people don't think critically anymore and for lack of a better term have been indoctrinated ... like how the cuss did global warming become a partisan issue where the majority of repblicans don't believe it and the majority of democrats do!? ... we are fighting against misinformation campaigns that target the lazy and weak and most of all selfish ... i'm just not sure succumbing to one's defensive attitude is going to work out in the long run ...
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,408
*** I think I may see the flaw in my description. What I am trying to say is that the question of the cause seems to have been answered but its like the argument then switched so that we are still arguing about something rather than moving to solutions. Man made or not, shouldn't we try to solve green house gas emissions? That is my point.
the cause is relevant because if people think that the greenhouse gases are naturally occurring - how the heck are you gonna offer solutions? ... if we can't agree that it is man made and it is related to industrialization, deforestation, environmental degradation, and wasteful energy consumption then how the heck do we fix it? ...
I see what you are saying. we have been throwing rocks at a mountain for quite a while trying it the way we are...maybe a change in message would help...Allow people to be part of the solution rather than feeling accused...too many times people here man made and they immediately get defensive as if you are saying they specifically caused it themselves...I don't know...human psychology is strange and a positive argument might be a better? I don't know for sure, I just know the way the message is delivered now has been neutralized and needs to change.
You make some excellent points here, mikepegg. The problems involved with climate change affect us all, we're all in the same boat which is in danger of capsizing so we all need to work together. A few years ago when I organized a gathering on the steps of the local City Hall of my rather conservative town to raise awareness of the need to cut carbon, the group of people who came out were a mixed but friendly group of locals. I arranged permission through out local PD to hold this gathering. The only resistance we got were a couple of evangelicals who yelled at us saying this was not God's will. I approached the two men and told them that the purpose of this gathering was not religious based and asked them nicely not to heckle the group. This did not work so I politely informed these two that I had permission from the local police to hold this gathering and invited them to come with me to the nearby police station to discuss the matter. They quietly left.
We can do this together. We can make changes. Frankly, I think it is too late to reverse global warming any time soon but I am still confident that we can slow the warming down by cutting carbon emissions. It makes sense to at least try.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
well ... i think the problem with that is that when you try and tailor the message - it just gives the opponents another avenue by which to add confusion ... take the term climate change for instance ... it was like we changed it from global warming to climate change so people didn't take a cold snap as proof it wasn't happening ... but in the end - all it did was allow opposing groups another opportunity to discredit the issue
Good point. I always thought Global Warming being the term used in discussion was the largest problem to overcome. It is the term, the definition of climate change now, rather than climate change being the only focus...
a big part of the problem (like so many other issues) is people don't think critically anymore and for lack of a better term have been indoctrinated ... like how the cuss did global warming become a partisan issue where the majority of republicans don't believe it and the majority of democrats do!? ... we are fighting against misinformation campaigns that target the lazy and weak and most of all selfish ... i'm just not sure succumbing to one's defensive attitude is going to work out in the long run ...
yeah, maybe not. But not succumbing to it isn't working either. Damned if you do I suppose.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Good point. I always thought Global Warming being the term used in discussion was the largest problem to overcome. It is the term, the definition of climate change now, rather than climate change being the only focus...
yeah ... global warming is the problem ... one of the impacts of global warming is climate change but there are other major impacts as well as sea level rises, lack of sea ice, permafrost zones changing, ecosystem changes, etc...
yeah, maybe not. But not succumbing to it isn't working either. Damned if you do I suppose.
i just think we need to face a certain reality ... and it goes back to other discussions we have had about the role of corporations in dictating not only public policy but the dissemination of misinformation ... that is a major cause of the problem and until we recognize this - we have very little hope for change or a solution ...
Corporations fight it because they don't want the government to expand regulation which is already quite extensive.
Speaking of myths, the biggest one out there is that corporations are free to pollute at will (edit: at least in the US).
I don't think these clowns....I mean "pigs" have any idea what large corps go through with the EPA just to stay in business, but they're (non name callers)always always talking about the big bad corps that are ruining the world...and must not have any idea what really goes on other than their wild minds going crazy
...
I don't know if it's time to hit the panic button, but it is time to do more than we are. And I know polaris believes the solutions are already right in front of us, and perhaps they are, but I don't think so.
its not time to hit the panic button but it is time for some real solutions. the australian government has brought in a carbon tax which as far as i can see serves no purpose. what i would like is for the govt to implement building regulations and public transport solutions that incorporate greener measures. whats the point in charging us a tax when they are not leading by example and not putting other initiatives in place.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
...
I don't know if it's time to hit the panic button, but it is time to do more than we are. And I know polaris believes the solutions are already right in front of us, and perhaps they are, but I don't think so.
its not time to hit the panic button but it is time for some real solutions. the australian government has brought in a carbon tax which as far as i can see serves no purpose. what i would like is for the govt to implement building regulations and public transport solutions that incorporate greener measures. whats the point in charging us a tax when they are not leading by example and not putting other initiatives in place.
I don't understand this carbon tax thingy.. seems like a big deal over there.
I'm just flying around the other side of the world to say I love you
Sha la la la i'm in love with a jersey girl
I love you forever and forever
Adel 03 Melb 1 03 LA 2 06 Santa Barbara 06 Gorge 1 06 Gorge 2 06 Adel 1 06 Adel 2 06 Camden 1 08 Camden 2 08 Washington DC 08 Hartford 08
...
I don't know if it's time to hit the panic button, but it is time to do more than we are. And I know polaris believes the solutions are already right in front of us, and perhaps they are, but I don't think so.
its not time to hit the panic button but it is time for some real solutions. the australian government has brought in a carbon tax which as far as i can see serves no purpose. what i would like is for the govt to implement building regulations and public transport solutions that incorporate greener measures. whats the point in charging us a tax when they are not leading by example and not putting other initiatives in place.
I don't understand this carbon tax thingy.. seems like a big deal over there.
thats ok we dont really understand it either. we were hearing from all directions, most loudly from the opposition, that bringing this tax in was akin to the sky falling in. i was prepared for the worst but when my winter power bill came it was only $19 higher than the previous bill. i was very pleasantly surprised.. but then again i dont use a whole lot of power anyway so if my bill had risen significantly i wouldve had to wonder exactly why.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I haven't heard Romney do it yet, but I'm sure he will.
Really?
You haven't seen that silly fake fund-raiser where he bought food, gave it to people and got them to give it back to him on camera so he could claim he raised $5000?
it's because humankind is innately stupid and selfish. if they don't see an immediate and direct result or solution from their action, they don't give a shit. and especially if there's nothing in it for them personally. how many people actually fucking take the time to recycle their tomato soup cans? not one of those people is going to sell their car and ride the bus to work in the winter, or spend thousands of dollars to green up their home.
not gonna happen. we're fucked.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
it's because humankind is innately stupid and selfish. if they don't see an immediate and direct result or solution from their action, they don't give a shit. and especially if there's nothing in it for them personally. how many people actually fucking take the time to recycle their tomato soup cans? not one of those people is going to sell their car and ride the bus to work in the winter, or spend thousands of dollars to green up their home.
not gonna happen. we're fucked.
Wow- Honestly- these are great points here.
"Humankind is innately stupid": For the most part the last ten thousand years of our being here: stupid and fucked up. The three million years before that? Lately I've been reading that those years very well may have been mostly good and we were in balance with the rest of the deal. Maybe there are things we can learn from that.
Instant gratification: we're addicted to it. That's a hard habit to kick but the alternative offers better rewards.
Recycling: Silly isn't it? Such a basic first step. It's not universally done? That's difficult to digest- but true.
When I lived in the city: no car. Why drive there?
Here- it's pretty much a necessity although ride sharing, no drive days, excellent fuel efficiency help.
Insulation can be bought by the rich and scavenged but the not rich. Water temp and usage is easy to monitor- go camping now and then- good practice.
Yes, we're pretty much fucked but not for good I don't think. I'm guessing Mother Nature still has some balancing acts up her sleeve. And doing what we can to slow the collapse of things down makes more sense to me than major melt downs.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Corporations fight it because they don't want the government to expand regulation which is already quite extensive.
Speaking of myths, the biggest one out there is that corporations are free to pollute at will (edit: at least in the US).
I don't think these clowns....I mean "pigs" have any idea what large corps go through with the EPA just to stay in business, but they're (non name callers)always always talking about the big bad corps that are ruining the world...and must not have any idea what really goes on other than their wild minds going crazy
Godfather.
tells us about their woes....
from my own experiance's working at small crane companys till now at a large aerospace company and working directly with the city and epa they have a tight grip on the larger corp's,new permits are common and fines for the smallest infractions and even larger fines when something goes wrong..this does not mean that the companys willfully created a problem it means that anything theycan fine them for is fair game, in 1982 I started working for a plating and painting shop that also had a polishing shop,the epa constantly created new permit rules (that cost money for the company owner) the city wanted the land the owner had his company on to make a new strip mall for the new trolly so the epa attacked him offten and for some good money till finally clossing down his business that he and his father owned for over 40 years and that cost about 125 people their jobs and some of the people working there had been with the company for 20 to 30 years but to the epa and the city that didn't matter...all they wanted was the land for the trolly that actually turned El Cajon into a getto..and I grew up in the area so I know what I'm talking about.
and large corp's are a meal ticket for the epa and state and federal government handing out fines that exceed $250 million and they are always dreaming up new permit ideas to cost the company's money and the big money comes when a corp can't impliment these new actions in time..the time the epa or government gives them to make millions of dollars in changes to their plants.
believe ne man if you don't stand in the arena you can't see the corruption our government and epa deal out the small companys and big corp's especially because they know the big corp's have the money and when the day comes that you lose your job because the epa and the government wanted money or land from the company you work for you may never understand.
CHENNAI, India - A tropical storm weakened Thursday after slamming into southern India, bringing heavy rain and a storm surge and displacing 150,000 people. Six deaths have been reported in India and Sri Lanka.
Just before the storm made landfall Wednesday, an oil tanker with 37 crew ran aground off Chennai. One of its lifeboats capsized in the choppy waters, and one crewmember drowned, the Press Trust of India news agency reported.
On Thursday, two helicopters searched in the Bay of Bengal for the four missing crewmembers, said coast guard officer Gurdip Singh, adding that 32 crewmembers were rescued from the tanker.
Andhra Pradesh state said two people died there when their homes collapsed due to heavy rain Wednesday night in Nellore and Chittoor districts, and PTI reported another death in Tamil Nadu state, a 46-year old man who slipped into the rough sea from a pier and drowned. Sri Lanka reported two deaths earlier from the cyclone.
The cyclone had maximum winds of 75 kph (45 mph) after landfall but had weakened to a tropical depression. A storm surge of up to 1.5 metres (5 feet) was forecast to flood low-lying coastal areas, the India Meteorological Department said.
Power supply was disrupted to parts of Chennai, the capital of Tamil Nadu state, PTI said.
Heavy to very heavy rain expected, and fishermen were asked to stay at shore.
State authorities turned 282 schools into relief centres in Chennai and the city's port halted cargo operations. Twenty-three ships were moved to safer areas.
About 150,000 people were moved to shelters in Nellore, district official B. Sridhar said.
In Sri Lanka, 4,627 people were displaced by flooding and 56 fled because of a landslide threat in the island's central region. One woman died Tuesday after a tree branch fell on her while another person was killed in flooding, the nation's Disaster Management Center said. Floods also damaged about 1,000 houses, it said.
it's because humankind is innately stupid and selfish. if they don't see an immediate and direct result or solution from their action, they don't give a shit. and especially if there's nothing in it for them personally. how many people actually fucking take the time to recycle their tomato soup cans? not one of those people is going to sell their car and ride the bus to work in the winter, or spend thousands of dollars to green up their home.
not gonna happen. we're fucked.
Wow- Honestly- these are great points here.
"Humankind is innately stupid": For the most part the last ten thousand years of our being here: stupid and fucked up. The three million years before that? Lately I've been reading that those years very well may have been mostly good and we were in balance with the rest of the deal. Maybe there are things we can learn from that.
Instant gratification: we're addicted to it. That's a hard habit to kick but the alternative offers better rewards.
Recycling: Silly isn't it? Such a basic first step. It's not universally done? That's difficult to digest- but true.
When I lived in the city: no car. Why drive there?
Here- it's pretty much a necessity although ride sharing, no drive days, excellent fuel efficiency help.
Insulation can be bought by the rich and scavenged but the not rich. Water temp and usage is easy to monitor- go camping now and then- good practice.
Yes, we're pretty much fucked but not for good I don't think. I'm guessing Mother Nature still has some balancing acts up her sleeve. And doing what we can to slow the collapse of things down makes more sense to me than major melt downs.
it's because for most of humankind's existence, our species took and used what we needed. You didn't see a caveman killing a mammoth just for fun. he had to work for it, respected the circle of life, and killed what he needed for food and clothing. we don't need that shit anymore, but we do it MORE.
"I need to drive a 10 ton tank around because I may haul one 2x4 every month or so". They wanna look like that tough guy on the Dodge Ram commercial.
I do my best to recycle everything that should be. But as, I think it was polaris, maybe someone else, said, we're all hypocrites. I leave my computer on overnight sometimes, if I'm downloading something or if I plain out forget. I leave lights on sometimes. I take my mini van when I could take my compact car.
it's a culture of wants and we're all guilty of it, it just depends on degree. Some people don't care at all, and are downright reckless, some care a little, and some live like gypsys (I have a friend who reuses her bathwater for her kids for a week). Unfortunately, those that do the most in this world are seen by the masses as freaks who are a subculture of society, when in reality, they are the ones who should be revered for their dedication to our survival.
Without Earth, we die. But since it's almost certain to happen after we're gone, it's not immediate enough to worry about for most. And when it is immediate enough to take action, it will be WAY too late.
As Awnold once said: "it's in your nature to destroy yourselves". too bad we're taking every other living being with us.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Normal high? Normal low? Normal rainfall?
shouldn't Georgia's normal total rainfall have gone down in the past 22 years?
We have been in a drought with much less than 'normal' rainfall since I got here,
yet normal is not changing. Bugs me.
Is this because, looking at the very big picture, what happens in anyone's given lifetime
is a drop in the bucket compared to the lifetime of Earth?
Maybe just maybe this is written in a black book somewhere...
turbulent times are normal for now.
and what's with this new normal crap? :? I guess the new catch phrase :fp:
I hope the weather statistics catch up and...
yes people are getting filthy rich off Global Warming and Al Gore...
patuey
Interesting also, that he ends the piece by stating that we have a presidential election in which neither major party candidate has really addressed the climate in their campaign. At least until Sandy occurred.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
Interesting also, that he ends the piece by stating that we have a presidential election in which neither major party candidate has really addressed the climate in their campaign. At least until Sandy occurred.
interesting article.. it's undeniable really.
I'm just flying around the other side of the world to say I love you
Sha la la la i'm in love with a jersey girl
I love you forever and forever
Adel 03 Melb 1 03 LA 2 06 Santa Barbara 06 Gorge 1 06 Gorge 2 06 Adel 1 06 Adel 2 06 Camden 1 08 Camden 2 08 Washington DC 08 Hartford 08
it's a culture of wants and we're all guilty of it, it just depends on degree. Some people don't care at all, and are downright reckless, some care a little, and some live like gypsys (I have a friend who reuses her bathwater for her kids for a week). Unfortunately, those that do the most in this world are seen by the masses as freaks who are a subculture of society, when in reality, they are the ones who should be revered for their dedication to our survival.
ya ... the thing that gets me too is the whole hypocritical attack ... the whole ... does anyone use a laptop and care for the enviroment - well, you're a hypocrite ... that stuff is the worst ...
and riotgirl - all this stuff has been in the science for years ... i find it troubling that many people who deny global warming also feel that if it is happening, technology will save us ... yet, they ignore the basis by which technology is derived - science! ... science is telling us we are fucked ...
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,408
it's a culture of wants and we're all guilty of it, it just depends on degree. Some people don't care at all, and are downright reckless, some care a little, and some live like gypsys (I have a friend who reuses her bathwater for her kids for a week). Unfortunately, those that do the most in this world are seen by the masses as freaks who are a subculture of society, when in reality, they are the ones who should be revered for their dedication to our survival.
ya ... the thing that gets me too is the whole hypocritical attack ... the whole ... does anyone use a laptop and care for the enviroment - well, you're a hypocrite ... that stuff is the worst ...
and riotgirl - all this stuff has been in the science for years ... i find it troubling that many people who deny global warming also feel that if it is happening, technology will save us ... yet, they ignore the basis by which technology is derived - science! ... science is telling us we are fucked ...
I guess you could say we are all hypocrites to some degree but it's not a black and white issue. Each of us can make an effort to conserve more and it all ads up. If everyone living in (or like) the developed world made an effort to conserve more it would add up hugely. As far as living like Hugh's friend- that is highly admirable but easier said than done. I lived in a mostly parked vehicle for a couple of years not out of choice. It was a pretty low-impact lifestyle but have to say, if I had done it as an experiment it would not have lasted that long. It's very hard to live that way in- at least in most parts of the U.S. Finding a place to park the vehicle, obtaining basic necessities, keeping healthy- everything is a major challenge. It's not like you can just become a hunter-gatherer. So the reasonable thing is to do as much as we can.
And yes, polaris_x and riotgrl, these kinds of storms have been predicted for many years. I knew well a meteorologist who over twenty years ago predicted these kinds of storms and he was absolutely right. None of this should come as a surprise. We've had the knowledge of this coming for too long to plead innocence. The temptation to say "I told you so" is strong and I have to resist doing so. More importantly, lets all work harder together at making some changes.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
guessing with sandy bringing gw back in the news - cheques are being written once again to some PR company ... expect another global warming is a fraud article to come out shortly which will get circulated to the usual suspects ...
guessing with sandy bringing gw back in the news - cheques are being written once again to some PR company ... expect another global warming is a fraud article to come out shortly which will get circulated to the usual suspects ...
Comments
Al Gore isn't a talking point to me, and I don't listen to Mitt Romney or what he has to say to be honest. I just know his platform from the early debates where I didn't hear him mention Gore. Big Al is a prime example of someone EXPLOITING a situation in my opinion. I don't care about the size of a man's house. I know only people on the right can be hypocritical so I probably shouldn't judge him.
At what point in my argument did I make it sound like I didn't think something should be done? I just used the phrase both sides and you exploded on me with oil companies and the helpless folks who want to save the polar bears. Pointing out GE was a simple way of showing you that people and groups are out there that take advantage of the green initiatives for personal gain. It looked like to me that you made it seem like they didn't exist.
Talking point or not, Solyndra is an example of a company that took millions for green initiatives. Don't think they did that out of the goodness of their hearts, I believe they did it for personal gain. They perceived a need and tried to fill it and got money to do so. didn't work out, but they didn't do it for any other reason than profit. Solyndra isn't alone, i am not going to list them here nor do I think it is pertinent to the discussion.
I don't think the question is valid anymore. It has gone from greenhouse gas being a possible cause to arguing over whether it is man made or not...that tangent is not important IMO. It is likely both, so doing something about the emissions whether man is doing it or not is what is important. Does that make sense? I may not be saying it right but that is what I was trying to say and I don't really know another way to say it. So I don't think your example holds true...it is like I have a gas leak in my car, and after identifying the leak, instead of fixing it, I begin to argue over what caused it...either way it still needs to get fixed.
But apparently I am just spouting right wing talking points while AGREEING WITH YOU that we need to fix it
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
and i'm sorry if you didn't like being called out but tell me al gore isn't the right's favourite punching bag and solyndra isn't another favourite of the right!?? ... the both sides argument is frustrating because a) it's deflecting from the issue and b) it's akin to commenting on the palestinian conflict as both sides are wrong ... it isn't a critical examination of what reality is ... it's lazy imo ... it aims to negate what has happened that has brought us to this point ...
again - you can't fix a problem unless you know the cause ...
You didn't call me out as I don't spout talking points, so you mistakenly took what I was saying as simply falling back on old hats. The right's talking point of solyndra is for a completely different issue than global warming/climate change exploitation...It is a poster child of the right for the appearance of a sweat heart deal for a campaign contributor in the name of green energy. I used a general behavior of a company as an example of a green company (you named it solyndra, because it is known by most people I assume. Makes sense to use it because sometimes others read these posts and just need a quick reference rather than every company who ever took money for personal gain and failed.)
Your nail example is interesting, but changes the issue I think. If I were to use it, wouldn't it be better to fix the holes that we determined were caused by a nail, rather than trying to find out where I may have acquired the nail? Either way, right now my fuel is leaking and I can't do anything until I solve that problem. In climate change, the problem has been found hasn't it? Green house gases are the nail, correct? So why argue over where they come from, why not try to fix both holes? I wouldn't continually try to prove that nails were the cause of the hole in my tank, proving that once was enough. Now if I looked at the holes caused by the nail and only fixed one thinking it was going to solve the problem for ever, well then that is another story.
Pragmatism is often confused with laziness and giving in. It is neither. I must not be saying this correctly because I think if I could explain it in a way that made sense to you, you would agree with me.
AND, just for clarification purposes, I said both sides EXPLOIT the climate change argument for personal gain. I didn't say or mean ALL those involved exploit it...I listed a couple of examples of that exploitation, I didn't say that climate change deniers were right, but I don't think oil companies are the only ones acting in bad faith...i think either way we should do something about the gases, man made or not, it is/is going to affect us all.
*** I think I may see the flaw in my description. What I am trying to say is that the question of the cause seems to have been answered but its like the argument then switched so that we are still arguing about something rather than moving to solutions. Man made or not, shouldn't we try to solve green house gas emissions? That is my point.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
the cause is relevant because if people think that the greenhouse gases are naturally occurring - how the heck are you gonna offer solutions? ... if we can't agree that it is man made and it is related to industrialization, deforestation, environmental degradation, and wasteful energy consumption then how the heck do we fix it? ...
I see what you are saying. we have been throwing rocks at a mountain for quite a while trying it the way we are...maybe a change in message would help...Allow people to be part of the solution rather than feeling accused...too many times people here man made and they immediately get defensive as if you are saying they specifically caused it themselves...I don't know...human psychology is strange and a positive argument might be a better? I don't know for sure, I just know the way the message is delivered now has been neutralized and needs to change.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
well ... i think the problem with that is that when you try and tailor the message - it just gives the opponents another avenue by which to add confusion ... take the term climate change for instance ... it was like we changed it from global warming to climate change so people didn't take a cold snap as proof it wasn't happening ... but in the end - all it did was allow opposing groups another opportunity to discredit the issue ...
a big part of the problem (like so many other issues) is people don't think critically anymore and for lack of a better term have been indoctrinated ... like how the cuss did global warming become a partisan issue where the majority of repblicans don't believe it and the majority of democrats do!? ... we are fighting against misinformation campaigns that target the lazy and weak and most of all selfish ... i'm just not sure succumbing to one's defensive attitude is going to work out in the long run ...
You make some excellent points here, mikepegg. The problems involved with climate change affect us all, we're all in the same boat which is in danger of capsizing so we all need to work together. A few years ago when I organized a gathering on the steps of the local City Hall of my rather conservative town to raise awareness of the need to cut carbon, the group of people who came out were a mixed but friendly group of locals. I arranged permission through out local PD to hold this gathering. The only resistance we got were a couple of evangelicals who yelled at us saying this was not God's will. I approached the two men and told them that the purpose of this gathering was not religious based and asked them nicely not to heckle the group. This did not work so I politely informed these two that I had permission from the local police to hold this gathering and invited them to come with me to the nearby police station to discuss the matter. They quietly left.
We can do this together. We can make changes. Frankly, I think it is too late to reverse global warming any time soon but I am still confident that we can slow the warming down by cutting carbon emissions. It makes sense to at least try.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Good point. I always thought Global Warming being the term used in discussion was the largest problem to overcome. It is the term, the definition of climate change now, rather than climate change being the only focus...
yeah, maybe not. But not succumbing to it isn't working either. Damned if you do I suppose.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
yeah ... global warming is the problem ... one of the impacts of global warming is climate change but there are other major impacts as well as sea level rises, lack of sea ice, permafrost zones changing, ecosystem changes, etc...
i just think we need to face a certain reality ... and it goes back to other discussions we have had about the role of corporations in dictating not only public policy but the dissemination of misinformation ... that is a major cause of the problem and until we recognize this - we have very little hope for change or a solution ...
tells us about their woes....
its not time to hit the panic button but it is time for some real solutions. the australian government has brought in a carbon tax which as far as i can see serves no purpose. what i would like is for the govt to implement building regulations and public transport solutions that incorporate greener measures. whats the point in charging us a tax when they are not leading by example and not putting other initiatives in place.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I don't understand this carbon tax thingy.. seems like a big deal over there.
Sha la la la i'm in love with a jersey girl
I love you forever and forever
Adel 03 Melb 1 03 LA 2 06 Santa Barbara 06 Gorge 1 06 Gorge 2 06 Adel 1 06 Adel 2 06 Camden 1 08 Camden 2 08 Washington DC 08 Hartford 08
thats ok we dont really understand it either. we were hearing from all directions, most loudly from the opposition, that bringing this tax in was akin to the sky falling in. i was prepared for the worst but when my winter power bill came it was only $19 higher than the previous bill. i was very pleasantly surprised.. but then again i dont use a whole lot of power anyway so if my bill had risen significantly i wouldve had to wonder exactly why.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Really?
You haven't seen that silly fake fund-raiser where he bought food, gave it to people and got them to give it back to him on camera so he could claim he raised $5000?
http://americablog.com/2012/10/romney-h ... tions.html
When the Red Cross had specifically said they needed money and not food?
:fp:
Sometimes I can't even bear the debate.
not gonna happen. we're fucked.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Wow- Honestly- these are great points here.
"Humankind is innately stupid": For the most part the last ten thousand years of our being here: stupid and fucked up. The three million years before that? Lately I've been reading that those years very well may have been mostly good and we were in balance with the rest of the deal. Maybe there are things we can learn from that.
Instant gratification: we're addicted to it. That's a hard habit to kick but the alternative offers better rewards.
Recycling: Silly isn't it? Such a basic first step. It's not universally done? That's difficult to digest- but true.
When I lived in the city: no car. Why drive there?
Here- it's pretty much a necessity although ride sharing, no drive days, excellent fuel efficiency help.
Insulation can be bought by the rich and scavenged but the not rich. Water temp and usage is easy to monitor- go camping now and then- good practice.
Yes, we're pretty much fucked but not for good I don't think. I'm guessing Mother Nature still has some balancing acts up her sleeve. And doing what we can to slow the collapse of things down makes more sense to me than major melt downs.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
from my own experiance's working at small crane companys till now at a large aerospace company and working directly with the city and epa they have a tight grip on the larger corp's,new permits are common and fines for the smallest infractions and even larger fines when something goes wrong..this does not mean that the companys willfully created a problem it means that anything theycan fine them for is fair game, in 1982 I started working for a plating and painting shop that also had a polishing shop,the epa constantly created new permit rules (that cost money for the company owner) the city wanted the land the owner had his company on to make a new strip mall for the new trolly so the epa attacked him offten and for some good money till finally clossing down his business that he and his father owned for over 40 years and that cost about 125 people their jobs and some of the people working there had been with the company for 20 to 30 years but to the epa and the city that didn't matter...all they wanted was the land for the trolly that actually turned El Cajon into a getto..and I grew up in the area so I know what I'm talking about.
and large corp's are a meal ticket for the epa and state and federal government handing out fines that exceed $250 million and they are always dreaming up new permit ideas to cost the company's money and the big money comes when a corp can't impliment these new actions in time..the time the epa or government gives them to make millions of dollars in changes to their plants.
believe ne man if you don't stand in the arena you can't see the corruption our government and epa deal out the small companys and big corp's especially because they know the big corp's have the money and when the day comes that you lose your job because the epa and the government wanted money or land from the company you work for you may never understand.
Godfather.
CHENNAI, India - A tropical storm weakened Thursday after slamming into southern India, bringing heavy rain and a storm surge and displacing 150,000 people. Six deaths have been reported in India and Sri Lanka.
Just before the storm made landfall Wednesday, an oil tanker with 37 crew ran aground off Chennai. One of its lifeboats capsized in the choppy waters, and one crewmember drowned, the Press Trust of India news agency reported.
On Thursday, two helicopters searched in the Bay of Bengal for the four missing crewmembers, said coast guard officer Gurdip Singh, adding that 32 crewmembers were rescued from the tanker.
Andhra Pradesh state said two people died there when their homes collapsed due to heavy rain Wednesday night in Nellore and Chittoor districts, and PTI reported another death in Tamil Nadu state, a 46-year old man who slipped into the rough sea from a pier and drowned. Sri Lanka reported two deaths earlier from the cyclone.
The cyclone had maximum winds of 75 kph (45 mph) after landfall but had weakened to a tropical depression. A storm surge of up to 1.5 metres (5 feet) was forecast to flood low-lying coastal areas, the India Meteorological Department said.
Power supply was disrupted to parts of Chennai, the capital of Tamil Nadu state, PTI said.
Heavy to very heavy rain expected, and fishermen were asked to stay at shore.
State authorities turned 282 schools into relief centres in Chennai and the city's port halted cargo operations. Twenty-three ships were moved to safer areas.
About 150,000 people were moved to shelters in Nellore, district official B. Sridhar said.
In Sri Lanka, 4,627 people were displaced by flooding and 56 fled because of a landslide threat in the island's central region. One woman died Tuesday after a tree branch fell on her while another person was killed in flooding, the nation's Disaster Management Center said. Floods also damaged about 1,000 houses, it said.
it's because for most of humankind's existence, our species took and used what we needed. You didn't see a caveman killing a mammoth just for fun. he had to work for it, respected the circle of life, and killed what he needed for food and clothing. we don't need that shit anymore, but we do it MORE.
"I need to drive a 10 ton tank around because I may haul one 2x4 every month or so". They wanna look like that tough guy on the Dodge Ram commercial.
I do my best to recycle everything that should be. But as, I think it was polaris, maybe someone else, said, we're all hypocrites. I leave my computer on overnight sometimes, if I'm downloading something or if I plain out forget. I leave lights on sometimes. I take my mini van when I could take my compact car.
it's a culture of wants and we're all guilty of it, it just depends on degree. Some people don't care at all, and are downright reckless, some care a little, and some live like gypsys (I have a friend who reuses her bathwater for her kids for a week). Unfortunately, those that do the most in this world are seen by the masses as freaks who are a subculture of society, when in reality, they are the ones who should be revered for their dedication to our survival.
Without Earth, we die. But since it's almost certain to happen after we're gone, it's not immediate enough to worry about for most. And when it is immediate enough to take action, it will be WAY too late.
As Awnold once said: "it's in your nature to destroy yourselves". too bad we're taking every other living being with us.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Normal high? Normal low? Normal rainfall?
shouldn't Georgia's normal total rainfall have gone down in the past 22 years?
We have been in a drought with much less than 'normal' rainfall since I got here,
yet normal is not changing. Bugs me.
Is this because, looking at the very big picture, what happens in anyone's given lifetime
is a drop in the bucket compared to the lifetime of Earth?
Maybe just maybe this is written in a black book somewhere...
turbulent times are normal for now.
and what's with this new normal crap? :? I guess the new catch phrase :fp:
I hope the weather statistics catch up and...
yes people are getting filthy rich off Global Warming and Al Gore...
patuey
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2012/oct/30/hurricane-sandy-supersized-climate-change
Interesting also, that he ends the piece by stating that we have a presidential election in which neither major party candidate has really addressed the climate in their campaign. At least until Sandy occurred.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
interesting article.. it's undeniable really.
Sha la la la i'm in love with a jersey girl
I love you forever and forever
Adel 03 Melb 1 03 LA 2 06 Santa Barbara 06 Gorge 1 06 Gorge 2 06 Adel 1 06 Adel 2 06 Camden 1 08 Camden 2 08 Washington DC 08 Hartford 08
ya ... the thing that gets me too is the whole hypocritical attack ... the whole ... does anyone use a laptop and care for the enviroment - well, you're a hypocrite ... that stuff is the worst ...
and riotgirl - all this stuff has been in the science for years ... i find it troubling that many people who deny global warming also feel that if it is happening, technology will save us ... yet, they ignore the basis by which technology is derived - science! ... science is telling us we are fucked ...
I guess you could say we are all hypocrites to some degree but it's not a black and white issue. Each of us can make an effort to conserve more and it all ads up. If everyone living in (or like) the developed world made an effort to conserve more it would add up hugely. As far as living like Hugh's friend- that is highly admirable but easier said than done. I lived in a mostly parked vehicle for a couple of years not out of choice. It was a pretty low-impact lifestyle but have to say, if I had done it as an experiment it would not have lasted that long. It's very hard to live that way in- at least in most parts of the U.S. Finding a place to park the vehicle, obtaining basic necessities, keeping healthy- everything is a major challenge. It's not like you can just become a hunter-gatherer. So the reasonable thing is to do as much as we can.
And yes, polaris_x and riotgrl, these kinds of storms have been predicted for many years. I knew well a meteorologist who over twenty years ago predicted these kinds of storms and he was absolutely right. None of this should come as a surprise. We've had the knowledge of this coming for too long to plead innocence. The temptation to say "I told you so" is strong and I have to resist doing so. More importantly, lets all work harder together at making some changes.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Surprise!
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/10 ... cientists/
Hell yeah you are. Where does all that paper come from for those books you sell!!!!!