it would be nice if you could, at the very least, respect the beliefs of others.
When their silly fables and superstitions are no longer used as weapons against me and my family... maybe I'll reconsider. Until then... they can stick it.
But I stand by what I said. I do not believe for a second that Jesus was a real person and all the silly people thinking that the bible was written in the first hundred years after he died and hasn't been changed countless times just don't know their history.
That book was written, re-written, re-compiled and re-interpreted so many times that any actual traces of the original texts has been lost.
But I stand by what I said. I do not believe for a second that Jesus was a real person and all the silly people thinking that the bible was written in the first hundred years after he died and hasn't been changed countless times just don't know their history.
Jesus was a real person it's dictated by facts of history and the Gospels were all written in the first hundred years- which is a real fact as well.
You don't have to believe Jesus was the son of man - to realize history admits he's real. Just cause you don't want him to exist, doesn't mean he didn't.
Facts must hurt, as your hate seems to seethe for Christians. Why? I have no clue.
it would be nice if you could, at the very least, respect the beliefs of others.
When their silly fables and superstitions are no longer used as weapons against me and my family... maybe I'll reconsider. Until then... they can stick it.
But I stand by what I said. I do not believe for a second that Jesus was a real person and all the silly people thinking that the bible was written in the first hundred years after he died and hasn't been changed countless times just don't know their history.
That book was written, re-written, re-compiled and re-interpreted so many times that any actual traces of the original texts has been lost.
And most of it was made up anyway.
Well, I agree with everything just said about the bible, but Jesus did exist as a man ... I like to think of him as a really charismatic and much kinder David Koresh. I also believe that if he saw how his message has been twisted and perverted in his name the way it has been by organized Christianity he'd role over in his fucking grave, which he is undoubtedly still in.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Maybe this will help the very ignorant poster who claims possibly the most famous man who ever existed and clearly did exist via historical accounts outside of religious texts,... did not exist. Feel free to read up:
From the link:
Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[5][6][7][8][9][10] Scholars generally agree that Jesus was a Galilean Jew who was born BC 7–2 and died AD 30–36.[11][12] Most scholars hold that Jesus lived in Galilee and Judea[13][14][15] and that he spoke Aramaic and may have also spoken Hebrew and Greek.[16][17][18][19][20] Although scholars differ on the reconstruction of the specific episodes of the life of Jesus, the two events whose historicity is subject to "almost universal assent" are that he was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.[21][22][23][24]
Once again, you don't get it. I was trying to be discreet and yet let my thoughts be heard to the powers that be. You're prying. So, I'll try to explain...
My points within have to do with consistency of use of terms - like "whore" in MT. I was told not to use that term when I said corporate whore in reference to a person we all here should respect. I admitted I was wrong. I'm assuming the same should be the case for the rest of the populace within MT, if the person referenced is respected, which as a Catholic Saint - I'd say she is... the term shouldn't be used.
End of story. That's my take. It's inconsistent.
it IS consistent, you are simply not understanding the intent behind it. calling someone a name is different than just saying that word. simple as that.
.
Maybe this will help the very ignorant poster who claims possibly the most famous man who ever existed and clearly did exist via historical accounts outside of religious texts,... did not exist. Feel free to read up:
From the link:
Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[5][6][7][8][9][10] Scholars generally agree that Jesus was a Galilean Jew who was born BC 7–2 and died AD 30–36.[11][12] Most scholars hold that Jesus lived in Galilee and Judea[13][14][15] and that he spoke Aramaic and may have also spoken Hebrew and Greek.[16][17][18][19][20] Although scholars differ on the reconstruction of the specific episodes of the life of Jesus, the two events whose historicity is subject to "almost universal assent" are that he was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.[21][22][23][24]
Jesus the most famous man who ever existed? :think: I don't know..
A LOT of people really like Brad Pitt... Hitler is pretty well-known also.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Maybe this will help the very ignorant poster who claims possibly the most famous man who ever existed and clearly did exist via historical accounts outside of religious texts,... did not exist. Feel free to read up:
From the link:
Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[5][6][7][8][9][10] Scholars generally agree that Jesus was a Galilean Jew who was born BC 7–2 and died AD 30–36.[11][12] Most scholars hold that Jesus lived in Galilee and Judea[13][14][15] and that he spoke Aramaic and may have also spoken Hebrew and Greek.[16][17][18][19][20] Although scholars differ on the reconstruction of the specific episodes of the life of Jesus, the two events whose historicity is subject to "almost universal assent" are that he was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.[21][22][23][24]
Jesus the most famous man who ever existed? :think: I don't know..
A LOT of people really like Brad Pitt... Hitler is pretty well-known also.
He's just another invented folk hero whose life is based on solar movement.
He was "born" on December 25th. Like the date that the sun happens to start to move north on the horizon after being "dead for three days" from the winter solstice. The Sun dies every year, from the 21st (solstice, lowest point in the sky) to the 25th, when the Sun reverses and begins to return to its former, higher path, after being stationary for 3 days (biblical hell visit of the Son). At the solstice, the Sun is said to be at its weakest power.
He "died on a cross" (like how the son hits it's southern-most point on December 21st, just under the southern "cross" which is just a constellation).
You can cry all you want and call me all the names you want (and trust me, I've been called worse and cared less about anything you could even conceive of calling me), it won't change anything.
These solar-worshipping religions were around thousands of years before Christians began to show up and will be around centuries after the last Christians finally kick it. It's all made up.
want more?
Let's talk about the celebration of his "Birth" in the spring.... "Easter."
That's just Christians stealing a Pagan holiday called "Ostara" which was a celebration of female fertility. They said that fertility was represented by rabbits (that reproduced a lot) and coloured eggs (which are clearly symbols of reproduction). Can you think of a Christian holiday that has a name that sounds like "Ostara" that's got a bunny and colored eggs?
Jesus is just another folk hero. He wasn't real. You have been had.
He's just another invented folk hero whose life is based on solar movement.
He was "born" on December 25th. Like the date that the sun happens to start to move north on the horizon after being "dead for three days" from the winter solstice. The Sun dies every year, from the 21st (solstice, lowest point in the sky) to the 25th, when the Sun reverses and begins to return to its former, higher path, after being stationary for 3 days (biblical hell visit of the Son). At the solstice, the Sun is said to be at its weakest power.
He "died on a cross" (like how the son hits it's southern-most point on December 21st, just under the southern "cross" which is just a constellation).
You can cry all you want and call me all the names you want (and trust me, I've been called worse and cared less about anything you could even conceive of calling me), it won't change anything.
These solar-worshipping religions were around thousands of years before Christians began to show up and will be around centuries after the last Christians finally kick it. It's all made up.
want more?
Let's talk about the celebration of his "Birth" in the spring.... "Easter."
That's just Christians stealing a Pagan holiday called "Ostara" which was a celebration of female fertility. They said that fertility was represented by rabbits (that reproduced a lot) and coloured eggs (which are clearly symbols of reproduction). Can you think of a Christian holiday that has a name that sounds like "Ostara" that's got a bunny and colored eggs?
Jesus is just another folk hero. He wasn't real. You have been had.
Most Christians agree Easter and Christmas have pagan origins - Dec 25th was not the birth of Jesus, that's why jehovah's don't celebrate it. As for Easter, again a stolen pagan celebration about birth.
And yes, we get it. You believe Jesus was made up. There are countless statements on this thread that state otherwise and reasons why. What's your reason why you don't believe Jesus walked this earth? where is your basis in fact?
| Pinkpop 1992 *BEST EVER* | Rotterdam 1993 | Amsterdam 1996 | Pinkpop 2000 | Arnhem 2006 | Nijmegen 2007 | Rotterdam 2009 | Nijmegen 2010 | Amsterdam I + II 2012 ** | Amsterdam Eddie Vedder Solo 2012 First European Concert *EPIC*| Amsterdam I + II 2014 | Amsterdam Eddie Vedder Solo 2016 night I | Amsterdam I + II 2018 | Amsterdam I -> Canceled + II 2022 *EPIC
maybe the reason for anger about religion is that so many have used it as a reason and justification to discriminate against and hurt others, see them as "less than" and wage war. Some use it as a great sense of faith and support and as a reason to "do good." It's one of those things that changes form depending on who is interpreting the teachings of their faith and how. As long as it is used by a weapon by some it is going to cause some very strong negative feelings in others. That's just part of the fallout.
"I need your strength for me to be strong...I need your love to feel loved"
But I stand by what I said. I do not believe for a second that Jesus was a real person and all the silly people thinking that the bible was written in the first hundred years after he died and hasn't been changed countless times just don't know their history.
Jesus was a real person it's dictated by facts of history and the Gospels were all written in the first hundred years- which is a real fact as well.
You don't have to believe Jesus was the son of man - to realize history admits he's real. Just cause you don't want him to exist, doesn't mean he didn't.
Facts must hurt, as your hate seems to seethe for Christians. Why? I have no clue.
his anger at Christians is only a outlet for his anger at himself,he's very confused and has been for a long time I would guess.
I agree that that is one way to interpret the OP. Specifically, that OP was implying that the catholic church went out of its way to characterize Mary M. as a whore (prostitute) in order to neutralize the notion of her having married Jesus. I.e., from the Church's POV, if we can convince people Mary M. was a whore, then nobody will believe that she and Jesus were married.
The trouble is that OP didn't say any of that. OP typed "is this why mary magdalene was painted as a whore??", then posted an article that doesn't talk about her being a whore at all, then basically vanished from the thread. Unless and until cate (OP) comes back and explains their purpose and meaning, you're all just guessing. Polaris is assuming that cate meant what I typed above (correct me if I'm wrong, polaris); inlet is assuming cate was being intentionally vituperative and thus baiting.
i think it's a fair and reasonable conclusion which does not require significant assumption but if she did not intend that at all ... then i'm more than happy to admit i'm wrong and apologize ...
What's your reason why you don't believe Jesus walked this earth? where is your basis in fact?
You... want me to "prove" a negative?
Ok. Prove Bigfoot isn't real. Prove the Loch Ness monster isn't real.
Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[5][6][7][8][9][10] Scholars generally agree that Jesus was a Galilean Jew who was born BC 7–2 and died AD 30–36.[11][12] Most scholars hold that Jesus lived in Galilee and Judea[13][14][15] and that he spoke Aramaic and may have also spoken Hebrew and Greek.[16][17][18][19][20] Although scholars differ on the reconstruction of the specific episodes of the life of Jesus, the two events whose historicity is subject to "almost universal assent" are that he was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.[21][22][23][24]
But I stand by what I said. I do not believe for a second that Jesus was a real person and all the silly people thinking that the bible was written in the first hundred years after he died and hasn't been changed countless times just don't know their history.
Jesus was a real person it's dictated by facts of history and the Gospels were all written in the first hundred years- which is a real fact as well.
You don't have to believe Jesus was the son of man - to realize history admits he's real. Just cause you don't want him to exist, doesn't mean he didn't.
Facts must hurt, as your hate seems to seethe for Christians. Why? I have no clue.
his anger at Christians is only a outlet for his anger at himself,he's very confused and has been for a long time I would guess.
Godfather.
Not to speak for PoD, but I don't think that's it. It seems more like anger toward something people have used as a weapon. Sad that some people do use religion as a weapon, or maybe I should say misuse it as a weapon, but that can't be denied. I think anger about that is justified.
"I need your strength for me to be strong...I need your love to feel loved"
Not to speak for PoD, but I don't think that's it. It seems more like anger toward something people have used as a weapon. Sad that some people do use religion as a weapon, or maybe I should say misuse it as a weapon, but that can't be denied. I think anger about that is justified.
Jesus existed, comebackgirl. You don't have to think he was anything more than a typical human who just walked the earth and died. But, he existed. Denying that deems one completely ignorant of history.
The question is why would anyone (including an atheist) deny the existence of a man who clearly existed?
He's just another invented folk hero whose life is based on solar movement.
He was "born" on December 25th. Like the date that the sun happens to start to move north on the horizon after being "dead for three days" from the winter solstice. The Sun dies every year, from the 21st (solstice, lowest point in the sky) to the 25th, when the Sun reverses and begins to return to its former, higher path, after being stationary for 3 days (biblical hell visit of the Son). At the solstice, the Sun is said to be at its weakest power.
He "died on a cross" (like how the son hits it's southern-most point on December 21st, just under the southern "cross" which is just a constellation).
You can cry all you want and call me all the names you want (and trust me, I've been called worse and cared less about anything you could even conceive of calling me), it won't change anything.
These solar-worshipping religions were around thousands of years before Christians began to show up and will be around centuries after the last Christians finally kick it. It's all made up.
want more?
Let's talk about the celebration of his "Birth" in the spring.... "Easter."
That's just Christians stealing a Pagan holiday called "Ostara" which was a celebration of female fertility. They said that fertility was represented by rabbits (that reproduced a lot) and coloured eggs (which are clearly symbols of reproduction). Can you think of a Christian holiday that has a name that sounds like "Ostara" that's got a bunny and colored eggs?
Jesus is just another folk hero. He wasn't real. You have been had.
Hey Prince, you do realize you are coming off just a tad less ignorant and bigoted than those *you* *choose* to ***hate***?
NEITHER of those dates you mention are in the bible.
On the other hand crucifiction on a cross was a historical method of torture, with at least one account now verified by modern archaeology to have taken place in the "alleged" time of jesus, itself.
The story of jesus, as depicted by the words in the bible has almost nothing to do with a "sun god", unless, arguably, you want to view the "miracles" as metaphors for the suns action.
Here is a site that will explain to you quite readily how Constantine and other sun worshiping Romans\emperors altered the practices and ideas set forth by the scriptures (and adopted by early christians) to better suit their own sun worshiping desires.
December 25th was picked by a Roman bishop in 354ad specifically because the date was already in use for worship of the solar deity accepted by pagan rome. Christians actually originally rejected this date, and it is most definitely NOT in the "bible".
Again, the bible story is predominantly a story of initiation, and of a public display of "the mysteries". Jesus dying for 3 days and being resurrected is NOT some hokey "solar myth", it is a literal depiction of the event of "the 3rd initiation" which involves an initiate literally dying in the flesh, and then being "reborn". Jesus actually used this example before his own death by publicly initiating lazarus, and the "miracles" displayed by jesus can best be interpreted esoterically as references to what knowledge of jesus (the logos made flesh) does for man as a spiritual being.
Finally, the primary importance of the bible, since in reality, it was an exoteric account of an esoteric tradition (just as the mythology of Horus was an exoteric account - meant for the public - of a much deeper esoteric tradition) was not only to convey a morality to a largely immoral people, but -- in telling only what it could, without giving away too many secrets -- IT TOLD THE THOSE THAT WOULD LISTEN THAT MAN IS MADE OF AN INDWELLING SPARK FROM GOD - 'THE LOGOS'.
In that sense, and AS JOHN SAYS EXPLICITLY, ***YOU ARE JUST AS JESUS***.
" Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God."
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."
And Jesus, in John 14 says to Thomas (his "true twin"):
"Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
If you actually care to try and overcome some of your own imposed bigotry regarding the great mystery teaching that is the bible, read my post here and try to understand:
Jesus, as explicitly explained by John, is THE LOGOS.
It is that "fragment" of god of which ALL living things (which have undergone "individualization") are made of. The logos lies dormant in most of humanity. By learning to see the true light within yourself you can make contact with this logos (just as Jesus did) and when you do that, you literally "become a Son of God" because no longer is the spark of god "trapped" unrecognized within you, but as you begin to accept it's existence you can then begin to become one with it and BE it, discarding the remaining portions of yourself (your physical desires, your emotional desires, and your mental desires) as nothing but "illusions" of this world (or better as tools to be used in subjugation to the logos\the soul) and properly allow the logos to assert its place as the cornerstone of the temple of god (your body).
THIS is what the bible was TRYING to teach (particularly by John) before it got debased and rewritten (as you claim) although most of the fragments are very much still there. Also, as i say, it was never intended to be a full account of "the mysteries" (Soul Science) because it was written for the public masses BY initiates. But they would never divulge the full secrets to men so base and unready for full truth.
PS - I will actually concede that the Jesus story IS related to "the solar myth" but certainly not in the crass way that something like the Zeitgeist movies explicates. To understand this though, you have to understand what true esoteric doctrine is trying to get at which is
a. we are all part of (like cells in) a large body that is the body of god (the universe)
b. all parts are living in a very real way
c. light is a carrier of energy, specifically god energy.
d. you and i are actually beings of light (literally) which speaks to the electromagnetic functioning of the body
e. THE SUN is also a BEING and its physical manifestation is just as ours, but flesh upon an immortal soul
f. The SUN is the being that is the "god" of our Solar System. "He" is the most advanced being in our solar system and responsible for ALL life within it (think about it, LITERALLY true)
g. Jesus was thought to be so highly advanced a being that his indwelling spirit was actually directly from "the sun" (this is probably very poorly phrased)
THIS is what the egyptians really believed (up to item G, obviously) and what esoteric tradition across the ages teaches. It is not hokey but built upon an intersection of true "religion" and science. Almost all of it, if read correctly, still holds up and is not disprovable by modern science. Actually in large part, the cutting edge of modern science seems to support it. And one day, may actually be able to come very near proving it.
Post edited by DriftingByTheStorm on
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Not to speak for PoD, but I don't think that's it. It seems more like anger toward something people have used as a weapon. Sad that some people do use religion as a weapon, or maybe I should say misuse it as a weapon, but that can't be denied. I think anger about that is justified.
I agree, but it's also sad that people use all religion and all religious people as punching bags.
It's a good thing Prince hasn;t posted about that Islamic prophet...there could be more riots/killings in the middle east.
The more you say it doesn't make it any more true.
as I wrote earlier, maybe this is what you meant:
that Jesus didn't exist in the sense that the historical accounting of the religious texts created too much myth around the actual man. That `Jesus the idea` didn't exist, although the man probably did.
or are you seriously calling a consensus of ivy league historians and biblical scholars clueless? Its fine if you are, but I would just like you to clarify why you think Jesus didn't exist and maybe respond directly to some of the claims made in the links below or why someone who had no dog in the fight thousands of years ago would have incorrectly attributed existence to a man that didn't?
Harold W. Attridge:
The Lillian Claus Professor of New Testament Yale Divinity School
Speaking as a historian, why is it such a problem to know anything about the life of Jesus, and what are the sources you can draw on?
The problem in understanding Jesus as a historian begins with the fact that we have rather limited sources for reconstructing his life. Those sources are primarily the gospel traditions that we have in the New Testament, some apocryphal materials from the early Christian tradition, and some sources external to the New Testament. Those sources external to the New Testament are particularly valuable because they're not directly statements of faith, the way the New Testament materials are. Chief among those external sources is Josephus, a Jewish historian who wrote at the end of the first century and who in book 18 of his "Antiquities of the Jews," has a small passage about Jesus. He also reports about John the Baptist, and about James, the brother of Jesus. And those passages constitute the first external testimonies to the existence of Jesus by someone who was not a follower. They may have been tampered with in the transmission, but at the core there probably is a reliable historical account by Josephus of the existence of Jesus.
I don't think Frontline can be considered a highly religious show that is clearly biased.
Again, I really don't care if he existed or not, my guess is a man did exist that the jesus "myth" is attributed to...he probably did some of the things recounted in the bible, and probably didn't do others. But as far as traditions go, it was probably a merging of pagaen traditions into the christian fold so as to incorporate more followers. The church was/is a business after all, but that doesn't mean that Jesus didn't exist.
It looks like you may have missed it, but I also asked this question:
We don't discredit existence because of biographical errors do we? We wouldn't have too many people who actually lived if that were the standard.
so far we have representatives from Yale, Harvard, and Brown discussing that while the parables and things directly attributed to Jesus were maybe not factual...they believe he was a real person who was likely executed for interrupting the roman peace...Unless you stayed in a holiday inn express last night and know something they don't, I am pretty sure these historians aren't clueless and might have a pretty solid leg to stand on.
but if you want to keep denying it go ahead, but don't then turn around and call anyone dumb for ignoring evidence of other things that "existed" (dinosaurs, evolution, a heliocentric model for the earth)
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
yes, I do, seen as you have been given countless points by other people here to prove he walked this earth.
Uh.. well actually, none of those "prove" he walked the earth. Any more than stories about Paul Bunyan.
However, here's at least something to back up my suggestion that this is just another retelling of a similar story:
The Sun-god Horus was worshipped nearly 1,000 years before the story of Jesus. Now check these parallels:
• Both were conceived of a virgin.
• Both were the "only begotten son" of a god (either Osiris or Yahweh)
• Horus's mother was Meri, Jesus's mother was Mary.
• Horus's foster father was called Jo-Seph, and Jesus's foster father was Joseph.
• Both had their coming announced to their mother by an angel.
• Ancient Egyptians celebrated the birth of Horus on December 21 (the Winter Solstice). Modern Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25.
• Both births were announced by angels
• Both had shepherds witnessing the birth.
• Horus was visited at birth by "three solar deities" and Jesus was visited by "three wise men".
• After the birth of Horus, Herut tried to have Horus murdered. After the birth of Jesus, Herod tried to have Jesus murdered.
• To hide from Herut, the god That tells Isis, "Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child." To hide from Herod, an angel tells Joseph to "arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt."
• Both Horus and Jesus were 12 at their coming-of-age ritual. Neither have any official recorded life histories between the ages of 12 and 30.
• Both were baptized at age 30.
• Horus was baptized by Anup the Baptizer. Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist. (Both Anup and John were later beheaded.)
• Horus was taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain to be tempted by his arch-rival Set. Jesus was taken from the desert in Palestine up a high mountain to be tempted by his arch-rival Satan.
• Both have 12 disciples.
• Both walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, and restored sight to the blind.
• Horus raised his dead father (Osiris) from the grave. Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave. (notie the similarity in names when you say them out loud. PLUS... Osiris was also known as Asar, which is El-Asar in Hebrew, which is El-Asarus in Latin.)
• Osiris was raised in the town of Anu. Lazarus was raised in Bethanu (literally, "house of Anu").
• Both delivered a Sermon on the Mount.
And then of course...
• Both were crucified.
• Both were crucified next to two thieves.
• Horus was sent to Hell and resurrected in 3 days. Jesus was sent to Hell and came back "three days" later (although Friday night to Sunday morning is hardly three days).
• Both had their resurrection announced by women.
• Both are supposed to return for a 1000-year reign.
• Horus is known as KRST, the anointed one. Jesus was known as the Christ (which means "anointed one").
• Both Jesus and Horus have been called the good shepherd, the lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, the fisher, and the winnower.
• Both are associated with the zodiac sign of Pisces (the fish).
• Both are associated with the symbols of the fish, the beetle, the vine, and the shepherd's crook.
• Horus was identified with the Tau (cross). Jesus & Christianity is also symbolized by the cross.
my guess is a man did exist that the jesus "myth" is attributed to...he probably did some of the things recounted in the bible, and probably didn't do others. But as far as traditions go, it was probably a merging of pagaen traditions into the christian fold so as to incorporate more followers. The church was/is a business after all, but that doesn't mean that Jesus didn't exist.
OK, well then we can meet in the middle.
While there may have been a person named Jesus who was an actual person, the stories and events attributed to him are probably so exaggerated, made up and warped that the person in the bible that people now worship is... for lack of a better word... a "folk hero."
yes, I do, seen as you have been given countless points by other people here to prove he walked this earth.
Uh.. well actually, none of those "prove" he walked the earth. Any more than stories about Paul Bunyan.
However, here's at least something to back up my suggestion that this is just another retelling of a similar story:
The Sun-god Horus was worshipped nearly 1,000 years before the story of Jesus. Now check these parallels:
• Both were conceived of a virgin.
• Both were the "only begotten son" of a god (either Osiris or Yahweh)
• Horus's mother was Meri, Jesus's mother was Mary.
• Horus's foster father was called Jo-Seph, and Jesus's foster father was Joseph.
• Both had their coming announced to their mother by an angel.
• Ancient Egyptians celebrated the birth of Horus on December 21 (the Winter Solstice). Modern Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25.
• Both births were announced by angels
• Both had shepherds witnessing the birth.
• Horus was visited at birth by "three solar deities" and Jesus was visited by "three wise men".
• After the birth of Horus, Herut tried to have Horus murdered. After the birth of Jesus, Herod tried to have Jesus murdered.
• To hide from Herut, the god That tells Isis, "Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child." To hide from Herod, an angel tells Joseph to "arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt."
• Both Horus and Jesus were 12 at their coming-of-age ritual. Neither have any official recorded life histories between the ages of 12 and 30.
• Both were baptized at age 30.
• Horus was baptized by Anup the Baptizer. Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist. (Both Anup and John were later beheaded.)
• Horus was taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain to be tempted by his arch-rival Set. Jesus was taken from the desert in Palestine up a high mountain to be tempted by his arch-rival Satan.
• Both have 12 disciples.
• Both walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, and restored sight to the blind.
• Horus raised his dead father (Osiris) from the grave. Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave. (notie the similarity in names when you say them out loud. PLUS... Osiris was also known as Asar, which is El-Asar in Hebrew, which is El-Asarus in Latin.)
• Osiris was raised in the town of Anu. Lazarus was raised in Bethanu (literally, "house of Anu").
• Both delivered a Sermon on the Mount.
And then of course...
• Both were crucified.
• Both were crucified next to two thieves.
• Horus was sent to Hell and resurrected in 3 days. Jesus was sent to Hell and came back "three days" later (although Friday night to Sunday morning is hardly three days).
• Both had their resurrection announced by women.
• Both are supposed to return for a 1000-year reign.
• Horus is known as KRST, the anointed one. Jesus was known as the Christ (which means "anointed one").
• Both Jesus and Horus have been called the good shepherd, the lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, the fisher, and the winnower.
• Both are associated with the zodiac sign of Pisces (the fish).
• Both are associated with the symbols of the fish, the beetle, the vine, and the shepherd's crook.
• Horus was identified with the Tau (cross). Jesus & Christianity is also symbolized by the cross.
Ending the Myth of Horus
Posted on 10 January, 2005 by Consigliere
[Editor’s Note: It was my intent to have a reply ready before posting this, but I’ve found myself putting it off due to a busy weekend so I’m going to go ahead and post it as is. I’ll address it properly in the comments as soon as I have the opportunity though I’m sure there are several regulars who will probably be more than capable of addressing it first.]
I’ve heard repeated here several times that Horus, an Egyptian god, is carbon copy of Jesus. The obvious implication by those that have made this statement is that Jesus is a copycat version of an earlier Egyptian deity. The purpose of this entry is to disembowel that proposition once and for all.
When I first heard that Horus was the inspiration for Jesus several years ago, I didn’t give it much credence because I couldn’t establish any source material for the claims. I still can’t, but the internet is as adept at allowing anybody and everybody to pass on misinformation.
Upon further research, I’ve concluded that this theory originated with Gerald Massey, an English poet, born 1828, died 1927. He published primarily poems, but had an interest in Egypt. He parlayed that interest in Egypt into several books and lectures in which he set forth the proposition that Horus was in essence the first Jesus, and Jesus was a cheap imitation. The primary basis for his writing is the Egyptian Book of the Dead. This is available on-line and you can easily look it up to read it yourself. Be forewarned that forced reading of this would be an extremely efficient form of torture.
It should be noted that Massey’s actual proposition was that Jesus was a copycat from more than just Horus. According to Massey, Jesus was a compilation of an innumerable number of Egyptian deities. There were over 2,000 deities who had every human and godlike characteristic one can think of, excepting Superman’s power to stop a speeding bullet.
Since Massey, there is a dearth of anybody with any credentials that has adopted a straight Horus=Jesus theory. There is a one individual that has adopted some of Massey’s thoughts and incorporated them into a book-The Christ Conspiracy. This appears to be the basis for the claims that I see. The author is Acharya S. Her website is http://www.truthbeknown.com I note that Richard Price, a noted Christ Myther, and one that I take much more seriously then Acharya, said the following:
“Those of use who uphold any version of the controversial Christ Myth theory find ourselves immediately the object not just of criticism, but even of ridicule. And it causes us chagrin to be lumped together with certain writers with whom we share the Christ Myth butt little else…..
His other criticism, like mine, is that she uses very dated sources (19th Century) who were in Price’s words “eccentrics, freethinkers, and theosophists.”
Les, I am using your post from 1/3/05 as an example of the claims because you carry more credibility than most. That said here are the claims and what I have found:
Claim #1-Horus and Jesus are born from a virgin.
Horus’s mother is Isis. Isis was married to Osiris. We do not know for what length of time, but presumably the marriage was consummated. Whether it was or wasn’t doesn’t matter though. After Osiris is killed, Isis puts him back together again (he was hacked into 14 pieces) except for his penis which was tossed in a river or a lake. Iris fashions a substitute penis for him, humps him and here comes Horus. There is nothing virginal about that.
Claim #2-Both Horus and Jesus were born to a Mary and Joseph. (Seb)
As noted Isis is Horus’s mother’s name not Mary. In addition, Seb is not Horus’s father, Osiris is. Seb is Osiris’s father. Further, Seb is a distinct name from Joseph. Putting them side by side does not make them synonyms, and that appears to be what was done here.
Claim #3-Both were born of royal descent.
This is accurate.
Claim #4-Both births were announced by angels and witnessed by shepherds.
I can find nothing that mentions that the birth of Horus was announced by an angel or witnessed by shepherds. I have found that Horus was born in a swamp, which is a pretty unlikely place for shepherds. In addition Acharya mentions that Horus was born in a cave. Massey makes no mention of this, although he does represent that Mithra was born in a cave.
Claim #5-Both were heralded by stars and angels.
There is no star that heralded Horus’s birth nor is there any angel announcing it. Archarya in a footnote in The Origins of Christianity indicates that that there are three stars named the three kings in Orion and then relates this to the birth of Jesus. When we look to the stories regarding Horus, we find no star or angel announcing his birth. To the extent that Acharya S relies upon Massey and Massey relies upon what is depicted in the panels at Luxor see (from an atheist) further regarding virgin birth and pronouncement by angels http://www.frontline-apologetics.com/ca ... iption.htm
Claim #6-Both had later visitors (Horus-3 deities and Jesus-3 wisemen.)
There is no indication that there ever were 3 wisemen. The bible never mentions the number of wisemen, nor is there any document that reflects 3 deities at the birth of Horus. See the website referenced in Claim #5.
Claim #7-Both had murder plots against them.
There is mention that Seth did want to kill Horus, and Herod wanted to kill Jesus. so this is accurate.
Claim#8-Both came of age at 12, were baptized and their baptizers were executed.
There is no indication that Horus was preaching in a temple when he was 12. In fact, Massey indicates that Hours the child was depicted as a “weakling.” That doesn’t jive with story of Jesus preaching in the temple. Again this appears to have been a confabulation from Acharya and repeated by others.
Horus was never baptized in any of the Horus stories. In addition, Acharya mentions that John the Baptist is actually Anup the Baptizer. This individual is never mentioned anywhere in any Horus account. There is not even a footnote in Archaya’s on-line work The Origins of Christianity to support this. There is nothing.
Claim #9-Both had 12 disciples.
According to the Horus accounts, Horus had four semi-gods that were followers. There is some indication of 16 human followers and an unknown number of blacksmiths that went into battle with him. Horus did not have 12 disciples. Jesus reportedly did. Acharya failed to give a footnote to support this.
Massey points to a mural in the Book of Hades in which there are twelve reapers. Horus is not present in this scene. For Massey to make this connection he goes to a different scene within the same mural. In this scene there is a picture of a god whose name is the Master of Joy. Horus is never depicted although in other murals the artists do depict Horus. Had the artists ascribed 12 reapers in any relation to Horus all they had to do was put Horus at the scene. They did not.
Claim #10-Both walked on water.
Horus didn’t, or at least there is no record that I can find that he did. Massey does not maintain that Hours did. Massey uses wild conjecture to connect the story of fish man, Oannes, not Horus, to Jesus. Oannes came out of the sea during the day, and went back into the sea at night. Massey makes the two analogous because by his calculations, Jesus walked on water during the day.
As to Acharya, she as usual provides nothing to substantiate this.
Claim #11-Both performed miracles.
This is true although the miracles were different in scope and nature.
Claim #12 Both exorcised demons and raised Lazarus.
The actual claim is that Horus raised Osiris from the dead and that the name Osiris morphed to Lazarus. It doesn’t matter because Horus did not bring Osiris back to life. There is no mention of this in any document regarding the story. Horus did avenge Osiris’s death, but that did not raise Osiris from the dead.
Claim #13-Both held a Sermon on the Mount; both were transfigured on a mountain, died by crucifixion along with two thieves and were buried in tombs where they paid a quick visit to Hell and then rose from the dead after 3 days time, both resurrections were witness by women, and both will supposedly reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium.
These are the most damning claims if they were proven true in my opinion. Yet, I can locate none of this. No sermon, no transfiguration, certainly no crucifixion w/ two thieves, no trip to hell and no resurrection. There was an incident in which Horus was torn to pieces and Iris requested the crocodile god to fish him out of the water he was tossed into, which was done, but that’s it. I am at a loss to refute this because I can not find anything to support it.
Massey does compares a story about the Autumn Equinox related to Osiris, not Horus, as the symbolic crucifixion. There is no indication that Horus is involved in any way. There is no mention by Massey of any Sermon on the Mount. No mention or any actual crucifixion, no two thieves, no burial in a tomb. Massey does not maintain that anything of the sort occurred with Horus.
In short, of the claims outlined in this entry, I find the comparison between Horus and Jesus to consist of the following: they were of royal descent, they allegedly worked miracles and there were murder plots against them.
Comments
When their silly fables and superstitions are no longer used as weapons against me and my family... maybe I'll reconsider. Until then... they can stick it.
But I stand by what I said. I do not believe for a second that Jesus was a real person and all the silly people thinking that the bible was written in the first hundred years after he died and hasn't been changed countless times just don't know their history.
That book was written, re-written, re-compiled and re-interpreted so many times that any actual traces of the original texts has been lost.
And most of it was made up anyway.
i heard
10-05-04 09-09-05
05-16-06-5-17-06-5-19-06,06-26-06-06-27-06 05-03-10 09-04-11
07/19/13 11-15-13
Jesus was a real person it's dictated by facts of history and the Gospels were all written in the first hundred years- which is a real fact as well.
You don't have to believe Jesus was the son of man - to realize history admits he's real. Just cause you don't want him to exist, doesn't mean he didn't.
Facts must hurt, as your hate seems to seethe for Christians. Why? I have no clue.
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From the link:
Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[5][6][7][8][9][10] Scholars generally agree that Jesus was a Galilean Jew who was born BC 7–2 and died AD 30–36.[11][12] Most scholars hold that Jesus lived in Galilee and Judea[13][14][15] and that he spoke Aramaic and may have also spoken Hebrew and Greek.[16][17][18][19][20] Although scholars differ on the reconstruction of the specific episodes of the life of Jesus, the two events whose historicity is subject to "almost universal assent" are that he was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.[21][22][23][24]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
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How do "you" know someone else's intent?
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Jesus the most famous man who ever existed? :think: I don't know..
A LOT of people really like Brad Pitt... Hitler is pretty well-known also.
I'd say he's pretty damn popular. Like him or not. But, you're right - Brad has a nice beard, although Hitler could use some work on his facial hair.
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He's just another invented folk hero whose life is based on solar movement.
He was "born" on December 25th. Like the date that the sun happens to start to move north on the horizon after being "dead for three days" from the winter solstice. The Sun dies every year, from the 21st (solstice, lowest point in the sky) to the 25th, when the Sun reverses and begins to return to its former, higher path, after being stationary for 3 days (biblical hell visit of the Son). At the solstice, the Sun is said to be at its weakest power.
He "died on a cross" (like how the son hits it's southern-most point on December 21st, just under the southern "cross" which is just a constellation).
You can cry all you want and call me all the names you want (and trust me, I've been called worse and cared less about anything you could even conceive of calling me), it won't change anything.
These solar-worshipping religions were around thousands of years before Christians began to show up and will be around centuries after the last Christians finally kick it. It's all made up.
want more?
Let's talk about the celebration of his "Birth" in the spring.... "Easter."
That's just Christians stealing a Pagan holiday called "Ostara" which was a celebration of female fertility. They said that fertility was represented by rabbits (that reproduced a lot) and coloured eggs (which are clearly symbols of reproduction). Can you think of a Christian holiday that has a name that sounds like "Ostara" that's got a bunny and colored eggs?
Jesus is just another folk hero. He wasn't real. You have been had.
Most Christians agree Easter and Christmas have pagan origins - Dec 25th was not the birth of Jesus, that's why jehovah's don't celebrate it. As for Easter, again a stolen pagan celebration about birth.
And yes, we get it. You believe Jesus was made up. There are countless statements on this thread that state otherwise and reasons why. What's your reason why you don't believe Jesus walked this earth? where is your basis in fact?
"I need your strength for me to be strong...I need your love to feel loved"
Godfather.
i think it's a fair and reasonable conclusion which does not require significant assumption but if she did not intend that at all ... then i'm more than happy to admit i'm wrong and apologize ...
You... want me to "prove" a negative?
Ok. Prove Bigfoot isn't real. Prove the Loch Ness monster isn't real.
yes, I do, seen as you have been given countless points by other people here to prove he walked this earth.
But tell us... what am I "very confused" about? I'm not the one insisting that a folk hero based on the Egyptian god Re was a real person.
Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[5][6][7][8][9][10] Scholars generally agree that Jesus was a Galilean Jew who was born BC 7–2 and died AD 30–36.[11][12] Most scholars hold that Jesus lived in Galilee and Judea[13][14][15] and that he spoke Aramaic and may have also spoken Hebrew and Greek.[16][17][18][19][20] Although scholars differ on the reconstruction of the specific episodes of the life of Jesus, the two events whose historicity is subject to "almost universal assent" are that he was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.[21][22][23][24]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
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"I need your strength for me to be strong...I need your love to feel loved"
Jesus existed, comebackgirl. You don't have to think he was anything more than a typical human who just walked the earth and died. But, he existed. Denying that deems one completely ignorant of history.
The question is why would anyone (including an atheist) deny the existence of a man who clearly existed?
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Hey Prince, you do realize you are coming off just a tad less ignorant and bigoted than those *you* *choose* to ***hate***?
NEITHER of those dates you mention are in the bible.
On the other hand crucifiction on a cross was a historical method of torture, with at least one account now verified by modern archaeology to have taken place in the "alleged" time of jesus, itself.
The story of jesus, as depicted by the words in the bible has almost nothing to do with a "sun god", unless, arguably, you want to view the "miracles" as metaphors for the suns action.
Here is a site that will explain to you quite readily how Constantine and other sun worshiping Romans\emperors altered the practices and ideas set forth by the scriptures (and adopted by early christians) to better suit their own sun worshiping desires.
December 25th was picked by a Roman bishop in 354ad specifically because the date was already in use for worship of the solar deity accepted by pagan rome. Christians actually originally rejected this date, and it is most definitely NOT in the "bible".
Again,
the bible story is predominantly a story of initiation, and of a public display of "the mysteries". Jesus dying for 3 days and being resurrected is NOT some hokey "solar myth", it is a literal depiction of the event of "the 3rd initiation" which involves an initiate literally dying in the flesh, and then being "reborn". Jesus actually used this example before his own death by publicly initiating lazarus, and the "miracles" displayed by jesus can best be interpreted esoterically as references to what knowledge of jesus (the logos made flesh) does for man as a spiritual being.
Finally, the primary importance of the bible, since in reality, it was an exoteric account of an esoteric tradition (just as the mythology of Horus was an exoteric account - meant for the public - of a much deeper esoteric tradition) was not only to convey a morality to a largely immoral people, but -- in telling only what it could, without giving away too many secrets -- IT TOLD THE THOSE THAT WOULD LISTEN THAT MAN IS MADE OF AN INDWELLING SPARK FROM GOD - 'THE LOGOS'.
In that sense, and AS JOHN SAYS EXPLICITLY, ***YOU ARE JUST AS JESUS***.
" Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God."
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."
And Jesus, in John 14 says to Thomas (his "true twin"):
"Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
If you actually care to try and overcome some of your own imposed bigotry regarding the great mystery teaching that is the bible, read my post here and try to understand:
Jesus, as explicitly explained by John, is THE LOGOS.
It is that "fragment" of god of which ALL living things (which have undergone "individualization") are made of. The logos lies dormant in most of humanity. By learning to see the true light within yourself you can make contact with this logos (just as Jesus did) and when you do that, you literally "become a Son of God" because no longer is the spark of god "trapped" unrecognized within you, but as you begin to accept it's existence you can then begin to become one with it and BE it, discarding the remaining portions of yourself (your physical desires, your emotional desires, and your mental desires) as nothing but "illusions" of this world (or better as tools to be used in subjugation to the logos\the soul) and properly allow the logos to assert its place as the cornerstone of the temple of god (your body).
THIS is what the bible was TRYING to teach (particularly by John) before it got debased and rewritten (as you claim) although most of the fragments are very much still there. Also, as i say, it was never intended to be a full account of "the mysteries" (Soul Science) because it was written for the public masses BY initiates. But they would never divulge the full secrets to men so base and unready for full truth.
PS - I will actually concede that the Jesus story IS related to "the solar myth" but certainly not in the crass way that something like the Zeitgeist movies explicates. To understand this though, you have to understand what true esoteric doctrine is trying to get at which is
a. we are all part of (like cells in) a large body that is the body of god (the universe)
b. all parts are living in a very real way
c. light is a carrier of energy, specifically god energy.
d. you and i are actually beings of light (literally) which speaks to the electromagnetic functioning of the body
e. THE SUN is also a BEING and its physical manifestation is just as ours, but flesh upon an immortal soul
f. The SUN is the being that is the "god" of our Solar System. "He" is the most advanced being in our solar system and responsible for ALL life within it (think about it, LITERALLY true)
g. Jesus was thought to be so highly advanced a being that his indwelling spirit was actually directly from "the sun" (this is probably very poorly phrased)
THIS is what the egyptians really believed (up to item G, obviously) and what esoteric tradition across the ages teaches. It is not hokey but built upon an intersection of true "religion" and science. Almost all of it, if read correctly, still holds up and is not disprovable by modern science. Actually in large part, the cutting edge of modern science seems to support it. And one day, may actually be able to come very near proving it.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I agree, but it's also sad that people use all religion and all religious people as punching bags.
It's a good thing Prince hasn;t posted about that Islamic prophet...there could be more riots/killings in the middle east.
The more you say it doesn't make it any more true.
as I wrote earlier, maybe this is what you meant:
that Jesus didn't exist in the sense that the historical accounting of the religious texts created too much myth around the actual man. That `Jesus the idea` didn't exist, although the man probably did.
or are you seriously calling a consensus of ivy league historians and biblical scholars clueless? Its fine if you are, but I would just like you to clarify why you think Jesus didn't exist and maybe respond directly to some of the claims made in the links below or why someone who had no dog in the fight thousands of years ago would have incorrectly attributed existence to a man that didn't?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/
from http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... yknow.html
Harold W. Attridge:
The Lillian Claus Professor of New Testament Yale Divinity School
Speaking as a historian, why is it such a problem to know anything about the life of Jesus, and what are the sources you can draw on?
The problem in understanding Jesus as a historian begins with the fact that we have rather limited sources for reconstructing his life. Those sources are primarily the gospel traditions that we have in the New Testament, some apocryphal materials from the early Christian tradition, and some sources external to the New Testament. Those sources external to the New Testament are particularly valuable because they're not directly statements of faith, the way the New Testament materials are. Chief among those external sources is Josephus, a Jewish historian who wrote at the end of the first century and who in book 18 of his "Antiquities of the Jews," has a small passage about Jesus. He also reports about John the Baptist, and about James, the brother of Jesus. And those passages constitute the first external testimonies to the existence of Jesus by someone who was not a follower. They may have been tampered with in the transmission, but at the core there probably is a reliable historical account by Josephus of the existence of Jesus.
I don't think Frontline can be considered a highly religious show that is clearly biased.
Again, I really don't care if he existed or not, my guess is a man did exist that the jesus "myth" is attributed to...he probably did some of the things recounted in the bible, and probably didn't do others. But as far as traditions go, it was probably a merging of pagaen traditions into the christian fold so as to incorporate more followers. The church was/is a business after all, but that doesn't mean that Jesus didn't exist.
It looks like you may have missed it, but I also asked this question:
We don't discredit existence because of biographical errors do we? We wouldn't have too many people who actually lived if that were the standard.
so far we have representatives from Yale, Harvard, and Brown discussing that while the parables and things directly attributed to Jesus were maybe not factual...they believe he was a real person who was likely executed for interrupting the roman peace...Unless you stayed in a holiday inn express last night and know something they don't, I am pretty sure these historians aren't clueless and might have a pretty solid leg to stand on.
but if you want to keep denying it go ahead, but don't then turn around and call anyone dumb for ignoring evidence of other things that "existed" (dinosaurs, evolution, a heliocentric model for the earth)
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Uh.. well actually, none of those "prove" he walked the earth. Any more than stories about Paul Bunyan.
However, here's at least something to back up my suggestion that this is just another retelling of a similar story:
The Sun-god Horus was worshipped nearly 1,000 years before the story of Jesus. Now check these parallels:
• Both were conceived of a virgin.
• Both were the "only begotten son" of a god (either Osiris or Yahweh)
• Horus's mother was Meri, Jesus's mother was Mary.
• Horus's foster father was called Jo-Seph, and Jesus's foster father was Joseph.
• Both had their coming announced to their mother by an angel.
• Ancient Egyptians celebrated the birth of Horus on December 21 (the Winter Solstice). Modern Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25.
• Both births were announced by angels
• Both had shepherds witnessing the birth.
• Horus was visited at birth by "three solar deities" and Jesus was visited by "three wise men".
• After the birth of Horus, Herut tried to have Horus murdered. After the birth of Jesus, Herod tried to have Jesus murdered.
• To hide from Herut, the god That tells Isis, "Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child." To hide from Herod, an angel tells Joseph to "arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt."
• Both Horus and Jesus were 12 at their coming-of-age ritual. Neither have any official recorded life histories between the ages of 12 and 30.
• Both were baptized at age 30.
• Horus was baptized by Anup the Baptizer. Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist. (Both Anup and John were later beheaded.)
• Horus was taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain to be tempted by his arch-rival Set. Jesus was taken from the desert in Palestine up a high mountain to be tempted by his arch-rival Satan.
• Both have 12 disciples.
• Both walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, and restored sight to the blind.
• Horus raised his dead father (Osiris) from the grave. Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave. (notie the similarity in names when you say them out loud. PLUS... Osiris was also known as Asar, which is El-Asar in Hebrew, which is El-Asarus in Latin.)
• Osiris was raised in the town of Anu. Lazarus was raised in Bethanu (literally, "house of Anu").
• Both delivered a Sermon on the Mount.
And then of course...
• Both were crucified.
• Both were crucified next to two thieves.
• Horus was sent to Hell and resurrected in 3 days. Jesus was sent to Hell and came back "three days" later (although Friday night to Sunday morning is hardly three days).
• Both had their resurrection announced by women.
• Both are supposed to return for a 1000-year reign.
• Horus is known as KRST, the anointed one. Jesus was known as the Christ (which means "anointed one").
• Both Jesus and Horus have been called the good shepherd, the lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, the fisher, and the winnower.
• Both are associated with the zodiac sign of Pisces (the fish).
• Both are associated with the symbols of the fish, the beetle, the vine, and the shepherd's crook.
• Horus was identified with the Tau (cross). Jesus & Christianity is also symbolized by the cross.
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but you do have a great sense of humor
Godfather.
It seems that whether the person that all that is based off of has been proven to exist by most.
They can be separate arguments.
OK, well then we can meet in the middle.
While there may have been a person named Jesus who was an actual person, the stories and events attributed to him are probably so exaggerated, made up and warped that the person in the bible that people now worship is... for lack of a better word... a "folk hero."
you mean saying that I'm just angry at myself and have been confused for a long time?
Dude, if you think THAT bugs me, you haven't read many of my posts.
Ending the Myth of Horus
Posted on 10 January, 2005 by Consigliere
[Editor’s Note: It was my intent to have a reply ready before posting this, but I’ve found myself putting it off due to a busy weekend so I’m going to go ahead and post it as is. I’ll address it properly in the comments as soon as I have the opportunity though I’m sure there are several regulars who will probably be more than capable of addressing it first.]
I’ve heard repeated here several times that Horus, an Egyptian god, is carbon copy of Jesus. The obvious implication by those that have made this statement is that Jesus is a copycat version of an earlier Egyptian deity. The purpose of this entry is to disembowel that proposition once and for all.
When I first heard that Horus was the inspiration for Jesus several years ago, I didn’t give it much credence because I couldn’t establish any source material for the claims. I still can’t, but the internet is as adept at allowing anybody and everybody to pass on misinformation.
Upon further research, I’ve concluded that this theory originated with Gerald Massey, an English poet, born 1828, died 1927. He published primarily poems, but had an interest in Egypt. He parlayed that interest in Egypt into several books and lectures in which he set forth the proposition that Horus was in essence the first Jesus, and Jesus was a cheap imitation. The primary basis for his writing is the Egyptian Book of the Dead. This is available on-line and you can easily look it up to read it yourself. Be forewarned that forced reading of this would be an extremely efficient form of torture.
It should be noted that Massey’s actual proposition was that Jesus was a copycat from more than just Horus. According to Massey, Jesus was a compilation of an innumerable number of Egyptian deities. There were over 2,000 deities who had every human and godlike characteristic one can think of, excepting Superman’s power to stop a speeding bullet.
Since Massey, there is a dearth of anybody with any credentials that has adopted a straight Horus=Jesus theory. There is a one individual that has adopted some of Massey’s thoughts and incorporated them into a book-The Christ Conspiracy. This appears to be the basis for the claims that I see. The author is Acharya S. Her website is http://www.truthbeknown.com I note that Richard Price, a noted Christ Myther, and one that I take much more seriously then Acharya, said the following:
“Those of use who uphold any version of the controversial Christ Myth theory find ourselves immediately the object not just of criticism, but even of ridicule. And it causes us chagrin to be lumped together with certain writers with whom we share the Christ Myth butt little else…..
His other criticism, like mine, is that she uses very dated sources (19th Century) who were in Price’s words “eccentrics, freethinkers, and theosophists.”
Les, I am using your post from 1/3/05 as an example of the claims because you carry more credibility than most. That said here are the claims and what I have found:
Claim #1-Horus and Jesus are born from a virgin.
Horus’s mother is Isis. Isis was married to Osiris. We do not know for what length of time, but presumably the marriage was consummated. Whether it was or wasn’t doesn’t matter though. After Osiris is killed, Isis puts him back together again (he was hacked into 14 pieces) except for his penis which was tossed in a river or a lake. Iris fashions a substitute penis for him, humps him and here comes Horus. There is nothing virginal about that.
Claim #2-Both Horus and Jesus were born to a Mary and Joseph. (Seb)
As noted Isis is Horus’s mother’s name not Mary. In addition, Seb is not Horus’s father, Osiris is. Seb is Osiris’s father. Further, Seb is a distinct name from Joseph. Putting them side by side does not make them synonyms, and that appears to be what was done here.
Claim #3-Both were born of royal descent.
This is accurate.
Claim #4-Both births were announced by angels and witnessed by shepherds.
I can find nothing that mentions that the birth of Horus was announced by an angel or witnessed by shepherds. I have found that Horus was born in a swamp, which is a pretty unlikely place for shepherds. In addition Acharya mentions that Horus was born in a cave. Massey makes no mention of this, although he does represent that Mithra was born in a cave.
Claim #5-Both were heralded by stars and angels.
There is no star that heralded Horus’s birth nor is there any angel announcing it. Archarya in a footnote in The Origins of Christianity indicates that that there are three stars named the three kings in Orion and then relates this to the birth of Jesus. When we look to the stories regarding Horus, we find no star or angel announcing his birth. To the extent that Acharya S relies upon Massey and Massey relies upon what is depicted in the panels at Luxor see (from an atheist) further regarding virgin birth and pronouncement by angels http://www.frontline-apologetics.com/ca ... iption.htm
Claim #6-Both had later visitors (Horus-3 deities and Jesus-3 wisemen.)
There is no indication that there ever were 3 wisemen. The bible never mentions the number of wisemen, nor is there any document that reflects 3 deities at the birth of Horus. See the website referenced in Claim #5.
Claim #7-Both had murder plots against them.
There is mention that Seth did want to kill Horus, and Herod wanted to kill Jesus. so this is accurate.
Claim#8-Both came of age at 12, were baptized and their baptizers were executed.
There is no indication that Horus was preaching in a temple when he was 12. In fact, Massey indicates that Hours the child was depicted as a “weakling.” That doesn’t jive with story of Jesus preaching in the temple. Again this appears to have been a confabulation from Acharya and repeated by others.
Horus was never baptized in any of the Horus stories. In addition, Acharya mentions that John the Baptist is actually Anup the Baptizer. This individual is never mentioned anywhere in any Horus account. There is not even a footnote in Archaya’s on-line work The Origins of Christianity to support this. There is nothing.
Claim #9-Both had 12 disciples.
According to the Horus accounts, Horus had four semi-gods that were followers. There is some indication of 16 human followers and an unknown number of blacksmiths that went into battle with him. Horus did not have 12 disciples. Jesus reportedly did. Acharya failed to give a footnote to support this.
Massey points to a mural in the Book of Hades in which there are twelve reapers. Horus is not present in this scene. For Massey to make this connection he goes to a different scene within the same mural. In this scene there is a picture of a god whose name is the Master of Joy. Horus is never depicted although in other murals the artists do depict Horus. Had the artists ascribed 12 reapers in any relation to Horus all they had to do was put Horus at the scene. They did not.
Claim #10-Both walked on water.
Horus didn’t, or at least there is no record that I can find that he did. Massey does not maintain that Hours did. Massey uses wild conjecture to connect the story of fish man, Oannes, not Horus, to Jesus. Oannes came out of the sea during the day, and went back into the sea at night. Massey makes the two analogous because by his calculations, Jesus walked on water during the day.
As to Acharya, she as usual provides nothing to substantiate this.
Claim #11-Both performed miracles.
This is true although the miracles were different in scope and nature.
Claim #12 Both exorcised demons and raised Lazarus.
The actual claim is that Horus raised Osiris from the dead and that the name Osiris morphed to Lazarus. It doesn’t matter because Horus did not bring Osiris back to life. There is no mention of this in any document regarding the story. Horus did avenge Osiris’s death, but that did not raise Osiris from the dead.
Claim #13-Both held a Sermon on the Mount; both were transfigured on a mountain, died by crucifixion along with two thieves and were buried in tombs where they paid a quick visit to Hell and then rose from the dead after 3 days time, both resurrections were witness by women, and both will supposedly reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium.
These are the most damning claims if they were proven true in my opinion. Yet, I can locate none of this. No sermon, no transfiguration, certainly no crucifixion w/ two thieves, no trip to hell and no resurrection. There was an incident in which Horus was torn to pieces and Iris requested the crocodile god to fish him out of the water he was tossed into, which was done, but that’s it. I am at a loss to refute this because I can not find anything to support it.
Massey does compares a story about the Autumn Equinox related to Osiris, not Horus, as the symbolic crucifixion. There is no indication that Horus is involved in any way. There is no mention by Massey of any Sermon on the Mount. No mention or any actual crucifixion, no two thieves, no burial in a tomb. Massey does not maintain that anything of the sort occurred with Horus.
In short, of the claims outlined in this entry, I find the comparison between Horus and Jesus to consist of the following: they were of royal descent, they allegedly worked miracles and there were murder plots against them.
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