"I haven't side-stepped anything. Some Palestinians terrorists killed some Israeli hostages at the Olympics. So what? So what does that have to do with anything?"
Nope. That is you and how you feel about it. Don't try and justify your words. Maybe you are better off cherry picking quotes and posting links as opposed to when you actually express something in your own words.
Now you're the internet tough guy. Ha ha! What a joke you are.
And I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions. Are you hoping that by spouting more shit and trying to act the tough guy that I'll forget?
Oh, so now you resort to insults? Damn you make such solid points. I'm glad people like you are limited to internet keyboard idealist.
I'm resorting to insults? Playing that card again now are we? Just like you did in the Tienanmen Square thread? You chime into a thread spouting shit and insulting people, and then when things don't go your way you start crying foul like a fucking baby.
Seriously pal, give it up.
This is the second time you've gotten on my case. If you're too much of a child to say anything intelligent, and have too much of a chip to your shoulder to have a reasonable discussion about anything, then I suggest you take your sorry ass somewhere else. But if you think I'm gonna tolerate your snide comments and your racist filth, then you're very fucking mistaken.
And I suggest you read the posting guidelines at the top of the page. This isn't Youtube comments section. Throwing around insults and snide personal attacks isn't tolerated here. If you have a problem with me then feel free to pm me.
I'll forget what? Look at the history. Star with 1948, you know the foundation of Israel and go from there.
"I haven't side-stepped anything. Some Palestinians terrorists killed some Israeli hostages at the Olympics. So what? So what does that have to do with anything?"
I'll forget what? Look at the history. Star with 1948, you know the foundation of Israel and go from there.
Once again, dodging the question.
Pathetic.
I know the history. I asked you to provide an example of when Israel offered land and peace. it's now about the tenth time, and you're still ducking and avoiding it. Why don't you just admit that you don't know what you're talking about?
Ohhh I guess it's the when you can't think of something clever to say you end up insulting me, then when I call you out on it you think I'm the internet police?
Israeli disengagement from Gaza. Look that up chief.
"I haven't side-stepped anything. Some Palestinians terrorists killed some Israeli hostages at the Olympics. So what? So what does that have to do with anything?"
Ohhh I guess it's the when you can't think of something clever to say you end up insulting me, then when I call you out on it you think I'm the internet police?
You haven't called me out on anything. All you've done in this thread, just as you did in the other thread, is spout a lot of shit.
You spouted a lot of unsubstantiated gibberish about Israel and the Palestinians in this thread and I challenged you on it. But instead of rising to challenge and backing up what you say with any sort of intelligent response, or with reference to any source material, e.t.c., all you've done is spout even more shit and done everything you can to duck and evade my questions.
Do you think you're impressing anyone here? Because you're not. I'm just gladly helping you make an even bigger fool of yourself.
Ohhh I guess it's the when you can't think of something clever to say you end up insulting me, then when I call you out on it you think I'm the internet police?
You haven't called me out on anything. All you've done in this thread, just as you did in the other thread, is spout a lot of shit.
You spouted a lot of unsubstantiated gibberish about Israel and the Palestinians in this thread and I challenged you on it. But instead of rising to challenge and backing up what you say with any sort of intelligent response, or with reference to any source material, e.t.c., all you've done is spout even more shit and done everything you can to duck and evade my questions.
Do you think you're impressing anyone here? Because you're not. I'm just gladly helping you make an even bigger fool of yourself.
Because I disagree with you? Let it all out. You are this forums savior. I just wish I could be more like Byrnzie. Thanks for helping me.
There is a good chance I'm more educated than you are, but yeah, you are so right....
Yeah, of course you are. I can see that by your constant grammatical mistakes, poor spelling, complete aversion to facts and to source material, and an inability to read what's placed in front of him. Oh, and just in case you're confused, 'more educated' doesn't refer to how much t.v somebody's watched during their lifetime.
I'm on an iPad, sorry my typing isn't the greatest, those dame pe's in electrical engineering, they sure are just handing them out these days...
That' very impressive. Though you are the first person I've ever met in my life who's felt the need to brag about his qualifications. Strange that. Very strange. :-?
I'm on an iPad, sorry my typing isn't the greatest, those dame pe's in electrical engineering, they sure are just handing them out these days...
That' very impressive. Though you are the first person I've ever met in my life who's felt the need to brag about his qualifications. Strange that. Very strange. :-?
Not that I know what a pe is.
Where I come from we call them degrees.
Not a need to brag, but you keep making a point of how I'm not educated. A pe is after you get your degree as an engineer, and you work under one for 4 years and pass some intensive tests. You then get qualified as a Professional Engineer. So it's not really the same as just having your degree. Now you what a PE is.
Not a need to brag, but you keep making a point of how I'm not educated. A pe is after you get your degree as an engineer, and you work under one for 4 years and pass some intensive tests. You then get qualified as a Professional Engineer. So it's not really the same as just having your degree. Now you what a PE is.
I also have a degree, but I don't base my life's 'education' on that. And there are many people in this World smarter and/or more knowledgeable than the both of us who've never set foot inside a university.
Not a need to brag, but you keep making a point of how I'm not educated. A pe is after you get your degree as an engineer, and you work under one for 4 years and pass some intensive tests. You then get qualified as a Professional Engineer. So it's not really the same as just having your degree. Now you what a PE is.
I also have a degree, but I don't base my life's 'education' on that. And there are many people in this World smarter and/or more knowledgeable than the both of us who've never set foot inside a university.
I agree with you, but when you want to sit their and refer to me as uneducated and possibly just older than 10 years old, I will correct you and tell you my background. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm uneducated and maybe 10 years old.
i want to know when the israeli government offered land for peace as well... if this has happened, what are they still fighting about?? instead of offering land, they are stealing it and building settlements on it.
if israel in fact offered land for peace, why are the vast, vast majority of countries accusing israel of being in the wrong instead of the palestinians??
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Seriously? Land for peace is the principle that has been the foundation of every peace negotiation since the start of the Oslo process 20 years ago. They're still fighting because every negotiation has broken down before a final accord has been reached. The most recent land for peace offer that got somewhat close to a deal (I believe) was the offer made by Olmert when he was Prime Minister in 2008. You should be able to find details on that offer pretty easily if you google "olmert peace plan." As for the vast majority of countries, my understanding is that they reject the legality of the settlements but not of the military occupation per se, so long as it is understood as temporary pending a final peace accord. In other words they reject acts that would tend to make the occupation permanent but otherwise accept the legitimacy of Israel acting as the ruling power until a final peace accord is reached pursuant to which the territories would become an independent Palestinian state.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Seriously? Land for peace is the principle that has been the foundation of every peace negotiation since the start of the Oslo process 20 years ago. They're still fighting because every negotiation has broken down before a final accord has been reached. The most recent land for peace offer that got somewhat close to a deal (I believe) was the offer made by Olmert when he was Prime Minister in 2008. You should be able to find details on that offer pretty easily if you google "olmert peace plan." As for the vast majority of countries, my understanding is that they reject the legality of the settlements but not of the military occupation per se, so long as it is understood as temporary pending a final peace accord. In other words they reject acts that would tend to make the occupation permanent but otherwise accept the legitimacy of Israel acting as the ruling power until a final peace accord is reached pursuant to which the territories would become an independent Palestinian state.
It may have been the foundation of every so-called 'peace negotiation' since Oslo 2000, but as Oslo 2000 demonstrated, the Israeli's were simply interested in using the negotiations as opportunities to seize more land - carving up the West Bank into a series of separate Apartheid-style Bantustans - while disregarding what they were entitled to under international law. The fact that settlement construction tripled after Oslo is testament to that fact.
As for Israeli intransigence, and it's insistence on stealing more land and building more illegal settlements:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n16/henry-siegman/the-great-middle-east-peace-process-scam 'Given the vast power imbalance between Israel and the Palestinians – not to mention the vast preponderance of diplomatic support enjoyed by Israel from precisely those countries that one would have expected to compensate diplomatically for the military imbalance – nothing will change for the better without the US, the EU and other international actors finally facing up to what have long been the fundamental impediments to peace.
These impediments include the assumption, implicit in Israel’s occupation policy, that if no peace agreement is reached, the ‘default setting’ of UN Security Council Resolution 242 is the indefinite continuation of Israel’s occupation. If this reading were true, the resolution would actually be inviting an occupying power that wishes to retain its adversary’s territory to do so simply by means of avoiding peace talks – which is exactly what Israel has been doing. In fact,the introductory statement to Resolution 242 declares that territory cannot be acquired by war, implying that if the parties cannot reach agreement, the occupier must withdraw to the status quo ante: that, logically, is 242’s default setting. Had there been a sincere intention on Israel’s part to withdraw from the territories, surely forty years should have been more than enough time in which to reach an agreement.'
In his monologue with Amos Oz, the Butcher of Beirut [Ariel Sharon] spoke openly, telling Amos Oz:
“I personally don’t want to be any better than Khomeini or Brezhnev or Ghadafi or Assad or Mrs. Thatcher, or even Harry Truman who killed half a million Japanese with two fine bombs. I only want to be smarter than they are, quicker and more efficient, not better or more beautiful than they are. Tell me, do the baddies of this world have a bad time? If anyone tries to touch them, the evil men cut his hands and legs off. They hunt and catch whatever they feel like eating. They don’t suffer from indigestion and are not punished by Heaven. I want Israel to join that club. Maybe the world will then at last begin to fear me instead of feeling sorry for me. Maybe they will start to tremble, to fear my madness instead of admiring my nobility. Thank God for that. Let them tremble, let them call us a mad state. Let them understand that we are a wild country, dangerous to our surroundings, not normal, that we might go crazy if one of our children is murdered - just one! That we might go wild and burn all the oil fields in the Middle East! If anything would happen to your child, God forbid, you would talk like I do. Let them be aware in Washington, Moscow, Damascus and China that if one of our ambassadors is shot, or even a consul or the most junior embassy official, we might start World War Three just like that!”
“Even today I am willing to volunteer to do the dirty work for Israel, to kill as many Arabs as necessary, to deport them, to expel and burn them, to have everyone hate us, to pull the rug from underneath the feet of the Diaspora Jews, so that they will be forced to run to us crying. Even if it means blowing up one or two synagogues here and there, I don’t care. And I don’t mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. Then you can spruce up your Jewish conscience and enter the respectable club of civilised nations, nations that are large and healthy. What your lot don’t understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it.” Amos Oz Israeli daily Davar, Dec.17, 1982
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." -- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them." -- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.
"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial." -- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online
Reading Ariel Sharon's comments helps me to better understand where Michael Neumann was coming from here:
In February 2009, Neumann and his brother Osha Neumann asked the Israeli president to remove their grandmother’s name from the Yad Vashem because of the 2008-2009 Israeli offensive in the Gaza Strip. Neumann wrote that
'I do not believe that the Jewish people, in whose name you [i.e the Israeli president] have committed so many crimes with such outrageous complacency, can ever rid itself of the shame you have brought upon us. Nazi propaganda, for all its calumnies, never disgraced and corrupted the Jews; you have succeeded in this...you blacken our names not only by your acts, but by the lies, the coy evasions, the smirking arrogance and the infantile self-righteousness with which you embroider our history...You will never pay for your crimes and you will continue to preen yourself, to bask in your illusions of moral ascendancy.'
Can we at least agree to not present opinion as fact. Neither you nor I know for a fact what the intentions of Israel's leaders were when they made their various peace offers. I think they were made largely in good faith, you do not. Perhaps I am right, perhaps you are right, or perhaps the truth is somewhere in between. But stop with this bullshit where you state your opinion of the facts as if it is the undeniable truth and then ridicule anyone who dares to disagree with you.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Can we at least agree to not present opinion as fact. Neither you nor I know for a fact what the intentions of Israel's leaders were when they made their various peace offers. I think they were made largely in good faith, you do not. Perhaps I am right, perhaps you are right, or perhaps the truth is somewhere in between. But stop with this bullshit where you state your opinion of the facts as if it is the undeniable truth and then ridicule anyone who dares to disagree with you.
My opinion has nothing to do with it. Settlement construction continued apace during the so-called Oslo peace process, and settlement construction tripled in the years following those so-called 'peace talks'. This has nothing to do with opinion. It's a fact.
And what was presented at Camp David? A carve-up of the West Bank into a series of disconnected Apartheid-style Bantustans. Again, this is a fact that has nothing to do with me.
Comments
And I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions. Are you hoping that by spouting more shit and trying to act the tough guy that I'll forget?
Seriously pal, give it up.
This is the second time you've gotten on my case. If you're too much of a child to say anything intelligent, and have too much of a chip to your shoulder to have a reasonable discussion about anything, then I suggest you take your sorry ass somewhere else. But if you think I'm gonna tolerate your snide comments and your racist filth, then you're very fucking mistaken.
And I suggest you read the posting guidelines at the top of the page. This isn't Youtube comments section. Throwing around insults and snide personal attacks isn't tolerated here. If you have a problem with me then feel free to pm me.
"I haven't side-stepped anything. Some Palestinians terrorists killed some Israeli hostages at the Olympics. So what? So what does that have to do with anything?"
Pathetic.
I know the history. I asked you to provide an example of when Israel offered land and peace. it's now about the tenth time, and you're still ducking and avoiding it.
Why don't you just admit that you don't know what you're talking about?
English comprehension not your best subject at school?
'Playing the victim card'.
"I haven't side-stepped anything. Some Palestinians terrorists killed some Israeli hostages at the Olympics. So what? So what does that have to do with anything?"
You spouted a lot of unsubstantiated gibberish about Israel and the Palestinians in this thread and I challenged you on it. But instead of rising to challenge and backing up what you say with any sort of intelligent response, or with reference to any source material, e.t.c., all you've done is spout even more shit and done everything you can to duck and evade my questions.
Do you think you're impressing anyone here? Because you're not. I'm just gladly helping you make an even bigger fool of yourself.
Once again you continue spouting shit and ignoring the facts.
Oh, and just in case you're confused, 'more educated' doesn't refer to how much t.v somebody's watched during their lifetime.
Not that I know what a pe is.
Where I come from we call them degrees.
You made some pretty strong claims re: Palestine/Israel in this thread, and so I jumped all over them. That shit is like a red flag to a bull with me.
No hard feelings.
This was so entertaining and now you guys are behaving civil to each other.
In all seriousness, there's potential for some meaningful dialogue if you guys could release each other's throats and have it!
if israel in fact offered land for peace, why are the vast, vast majority of countries accusing israel of being in the wrong instead of the palestinians??
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
As for Israeli intransigence, and it's insistence on stealing more land and building more illegal settlements:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n16/henry-siegman/the-great-middle-east-peace-process-scam
'Given the vast power imbalance between Israel and the Palestinians – not to mention the vast preponderance of diplomatic support enjoyed by Israel from precisely those countries that one would have expected to compensate diplomatically for the military imbalance – nothing will change for the better without the US, the EU and other international actors finally facing up to what have long been the fundamental impediments to peace.
These impediments include the assumption, implicit in Israel’s occupation policy, that if no peace agreement is reached, the ‘default setting’ of UN Security Council Resolution 242 is the indefinite continuation of Israel’s occupation. If this reading were true, the resolution would actually be inviting an occupying power that wishes to retain its adversary’s territory to do so simply by means of avoiding peace talks – which is exactly what Israel has been doing. In fact,the introductory statement to Resolution 242 declares that territory cannot be acquired by war, implying that if the parties cannot reach agreement, the occupier must withdraw to the status quo ante: that, logically, is 242’s default setting. Had there been a sincere intention on Israel’s part to withdraw from the territories, surely forty years should have been more than enough time in which to reach an agreement.'
“I personally don’t want to be any better than Khomeini or Brezhnev or Ghadafi or Assad or Mrs. Thatcher, or even Harry Truman who killed half a million Japanese with two fine bombs. I only want to be smarter than they are, quicker and more efficient, not better or more beautiful than they are. Tell me, do the baddies of this world have a bad time? If anyone tries to touch them, the evil men cut his hands and legs off. They hunt and catch whatever they feel like eating. They don’t suffer from indigestion and are not punished by Heaven. I want Israel to join that club. Maybe the world will then at last begin to fear me instead of feeling sorry for me. Maybe they will start to tremble, to fear my madness instead of admiring my nobility. Thank God for that. Let them tremble, let them call us a mad state. Let them understand that we are a wild country, dangerous to our surroundings, not normal, that we might go crazy if one of our children is murdered - just one! That we might go wild and burn all the oil fields in the Middle East! If anything would happen to your child, God forbid, you would talk like I do. Let them be aware in Washington, Moscow, Damascus and China that if one of our ambassadors is shot, or even a consul or the most junior embassy official, we might start World War Three just like that!”
“Even today I am willing to volunteer to do the dirty work for Israel, to kill as many Arabs as necessary, to deport them, to expel and burn them, to have everyone hate us, to pull the rug from underneath the feet of the Diaspora Jews, so that they will be forced to run to us crying. Even if it means blowing up one or two synagogues here and there, I don’t care. And I don’t mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. Then you can spruce up your Jewish conscience and enter the respectable club of civilised nations, nations that are large and healthy. What your lot don’t understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it.”
Amos Oz
Israeli daily Davar, Dec.17, 1982
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.
"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online
In February 2009, Neumann and his brother Osha Neumann asked the Israeli president to remove their grandmother’s name from the Yad Vashem because of the 2008-2009 Israeli offensive in the Gaza Strip. Neumann wrote that
'I do not believe that the Jewish people, in whose name you [i.e the Israeli president] have committed so many crimes with such outrageous complacency, can ever rid itself of the shame you have brought upon us. Nazi propaganda, for all its calumnies, never disgraced and corrupted the Jews; you have succeeded in this...you blacken our names not only by your acts, but by the lies, the coy evasions, the smirking arrogance and the infantile self-righteousness with which you embroider our history...You will never pay for your crimes and you will continue to preen yourself, to bask in your illusions of moral ascendancy.'
And what was presented at Camp David? A carve-up of the West Bank into a series of disconnected Apartheid-style Bantustans. Again, this is a fact that has nothing to do with me.