Jewish Settler Attacks = Terrorism

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  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited May 2014
    yosi said:

    If you're asking whether I think "Israel" could conceivably include the West Bank, then yes, in principle it could. But I don't think it should. At all. Because I'm not a crazy person blind to reality.

    No, what I asked you was what you mean by the word 'Israel'. You said that 'the Jewish people have a right to self-determination, and that that right should be exercised in Israel'. Please explain to me what you mean by 'Israel'.

    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,154
    What are you talking about if not geography?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    According to the founding father of Zionism Theodore Herzl, “the area of the Jewish State stretches: “From the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates.” According to Rabbi Fischmann, “The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt up to the Euphrates, it includes parts of Syria and Lebanon.”

    In other words, “Greater Israel” consists of an area extending from the Nile Valley to the Euphrates.

    You claim to be a Zionist, Yosi. So what are your thoughts on this? What does 'Israel' encompass exactly?
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,154
    Are you serious?! This is ridiculous. Nobody claims that the State of Israel should include all of greater Israel except for maybe a lunatic fringe. Even the Likud has given up calling for all of greater Israel. And even if they hadn't, they wouldn't be speaking for "Zionism," because no one person or group speaks for Zionism. You're really just showing your ignorance now.

    But if you want to play this game, Ken O'Keefe, a well known anti-Zionist, has said that Jews control world finance and that 9/11 was planned by the Mossad. As an anti-Zionist, what are your thoughts on that?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi said:

    Are you serious?! This is ridiculous. Nobody claims that the State of Israel should include all of greater Israel except for maybe a lunatic fringe. Even the Likud has given up calling for all of greater Israel. And even if they hadn't, they wouldn't be speaking for "Zionism," because no one person or group speaks for Zionism. You're really just showing your ignorance now.

    But if you want to play this game, Ken O'Keefe, a well known anti-Zionist, has said that Jews control world finance and that 9/11 was planned by the Mossad. As an anti-Zionist, what are your thoughts on that?


    If you weren't so busy frothing at the mouth, then you'd notice that they're not my words. They were spoken by the founding father of Zionism, Theodore Herzl. Did he say those words, or didn't he?

    And you still haven't answered my question. Are you hoping that it will just go away? Here, I'll ask it a third time: You said that 'the Jewish people have a right to self-determination, and that that right should be exercised in Israel'. Please explain to me what you mean by 'Israel'.

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,154
    Thanks for the patronizing tone. I know exactly who Herzl is. And if you would stop and think rationally for a second you might understand that Herzl is not the be-all-and-end-all of Zionism, and that what he said does not define the ideology. Just like the fact that the founding fathers of the United States wrote into the Constitution that black people are only worth 3/5 of white people, but Americans aren't therefore bound to believe that.

    If you want an answer to your question then explain what it is you're asking about if it isn't geography. And while you're at it why don't you try answering any of the other questions I've posed to you, cause your constant dodging is well past the point of looking dodgy.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi said:

    Do you think there is such a thing as anti-Semitism in the world?

    ...Ken O'Keefe, a well known anti-Zionist, has said that Jews control world finance and that 9/11 was planned by the Mossad. As an anti-Zionist, what are your thoughts on that?

    Like I said before Yosi: You're not fooling anybody.

    You're pathetic attempts to try and paint me as a racist are all too transparent, and all too lame.

    Now why don't you go ahead and answer the question that I've now posed to you three times?

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,154
    I'm not trying to fool anybody. My point is simply that just as the statements of Ken O'Keefe don't define all anti-Zionists, whatever cherry-picked statements you dig up don't define all Zionists.

    Is there something wrong with you? I'd be happy to answer your question if I understood what your question is, but instead of clarifying as I've asked you to do twice now you just keep insisting that I answer a question I don't understand. So what the hell is your question? Are you asking what I think the geographical borders of Israel are? Because I thought I already answered that. And if that's not your question then can you please explain yourself instead of insisting like a lunatic that I answer a question that I don't understand and that you seem to be refusing to clarify?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited May 2014
    yosi said:

    I'm not trying to fool anybody. My point is simply that just as the statements of Ken O'Keefe don't define all anti-Zionists, whatever cherry-picked statements you dig up don't define all Zionists.

    No, that wasn't your point. You're 'point' was all too obvious.

    Nice try at wriggling out of that one.

    yosi said:

    I'd be happy to answer your question if I understood what your question is..

    My question is perfectly simple. It's a question that even a four year old could comprehend. So why cant you comprehend it?

    You said that 'the Jewish people have a right to self-determination, and that that right should be exercised in Israel'. Please explain to me what you mean by 'Israel'.

    And I suggest you quit trying to deflect my question with further reference to anti-Semitism, or with questions referring to somebody who thinks 9/11 was carried as part of a Jewish conspiracy. Like I said already, you're fooling no one.

    Stop squirming like a toad, and answer my question.



    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,154
    I think between the two of us I'm much better positioned to know what my own point was.

    Seriously? What is wrong with you? If you want an answer to your question then explain to me what your question is, because I honestly don't understand what you are asking? If you refuse to clarify your question as I've asked you to do then stop asking for an answer. This is really a very simple dilemma and I can't understand why you won't just explain your question.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,154
    Are you high right now? Cause the way you're acting is really not making any sense.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi said:

    Are you high right now? Cause the way you're acting is really not making any sense.

    You understand perfectly well what my question is. You're simply squirming like a toad and pretending that my question is ambiguous. It isn't.

    Anyway, thanks for clarifying my belief that honesty is not one of your strong points.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,154
    Ok, seriously, please try to get this through your insanely conspiratorial skull. I. DON'T. UNDERSTAND. WHAT. YOU. ARE. ASKING. ME. Just indulge me and explain the question. Please.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited May 2014
    Zion - The Promised Land. Zionism - a political ideology claiming the right for all Jews to live in the Biblical notion of a Greater Israel. The Zionist ideology is opposed by many orthodox Jews, who regard it as being completely contrary to the teachings of Judaism. The founding Father of Zionism, Theodore Herzl, said that “the area of the Jewish State stretches: “From the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates.”

    Here's some more quotes:

    "The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
    -- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

    "The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
    -- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

    "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
    -- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.


    I asked Yosi what the word 'Israel' means, in relation to his assertion that 'the Jewish people have a right to self-determination, and that that right should be exercised in Israel'.

    He then pretends to not understand my question.



  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,154
    You are really amazing. How does anyone take you seriously? It's like trying to have a discussion with a toddler throwing a temper tantrum.

    I take from your screed that your question was actually about the geographic boundaries of Israel, in which case I've already answered your question. But now that you've finally given me enough information to understand what the hell you were asking me I'll answer it again. The Land of Israel, in theory, encompasses more than the 1967 borders of the State of Israel. That said, Zionism does not demand that the State of Israel encompass all of what could theoretically be considered part of the Land of Israel, and in the present day mainstream Zionism does not in any way call for the State of Israel to include all of the Land of Israel/Greater Israel.

    If this is not what you're talking about then again, please explain your question cause I'm at a complete loss as to what the hell is going through your crazy head.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited May 2014
    yosi said:

    The Land of Israel, in theory, encompasses more than the 1967 borders of the State of Israel. That said, Zionism does not demand that the State of Israel encompass all of what could theoretically be considered part of the Land of Israel, and in the present day mainstream Zionism does not in any way call for the State of Israel to include all of the Land of Israel/Greater Israel.

    There, that wasn't difficult, was it?

    The Zionists also had no intention to accept the U.N Partition Plan. They only only decided to accept it publicly, once they knew the Palestinians had decided to reject it. Privately, the Zionists had no intention of accepting the Partition Resolution. As for what the mainstream Zionists now publicly demand, it's really irrelevant in light of their 60 years of lying and deceit.
    As for the 'theory' - 'the Land of Israel' - on which Zionism is based, can you please enlighten us as to what exactly this word 'Israel' encompasses?

    And, you claim to be a Zionist. So what does the word Israel mean to you? What do you envision to be the Land of Israel that the Jews have a right to requisition at the expense of it's Arab inhabitants?
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,154
    You are insane. I literally answered your question 16 posts ago!!!! Seriously, do you even bother to read what anyone writes here? How many times do I have to tell you that there is no such thing as "The Zionists." Zionism is not a monolithic, centrally organized belief system. And now you're going to try to say that the nascent state of Israel had no intention of accepting the partition plan that they fought tirelessly to get through the UN and then actually did accept?! You're just completely willing to rewrite history if it better suits your conspiracy theories.

    How about you answer some questions. I'll start easy for you. Does anti-Semitism exist?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited May 2014
    Keep wriggling.

    Zionism's basic tenet is that the Jews have a right to 'return' to their idea of the Promised Land. That's the foundation of Zionism. 'Zion' being another word for Jerusalem, or Promised Land, etc, as you know full well.
    So quit pretending that it's a complex ideology, beyond the capacity of a non-Zionist like myself to understand. You're simply muddying the water in an attempt to distance Zionism from the statements if it's founders, and from those who still call for annexation of the land from the river to the sea.
    The Zionists are not, and never were, open to negotiating on what they believed to be rightfully theirs, and on what their whole political ideology is founded upon.

    And there's documentary evidence that the Zionist leadership had no intention of accepting the Partition Plan. I'll provide that evidence if you like?

    In the meantime, you still haven't answered my question, other than to make fleeting reference to the West Bank. The West Bank is illegally occupied. The Israeli's have no right to one inch of it.
    Pretty ironic that someone who tries desperately to paint me as a racist believes that the Jews have the right to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians based on a self-serving notion of ancestry.

    Very ironic indeed!
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,154
    Sorry, not playing this game. I've answered your question (more than once). Now you answer mine, or should I take your silence to mean that you don't think there is such a thing as anti-Semitism?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi said:

    Sorry, not playing this game. I've answered your question (more than once). Now you answer mine, or should I take your silence to mean that you don't think there is such a thing as anti-Semitism?

    Is there such a thing as anti-semitism? Yes. Why? Is there also such a thing as anti-Arab racism in Israel?

    What's your point?



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