Jewish Settler Attacks = Terrorism

yosi

Viva, I've also spoken with people who have recalled peaceful relations between Jews and Palestinians. By the way, such co-existance still exists in places. I've walked through the markets in the Old City in Jerusalem with an orthodox rabbi who knows all the Palestinian antiquities merchants by name and was greeted warmly by all of them, and I've seen Jewish and Palestinian doctors and nurses working together as colleagues in Israeli hospitals to treat whomever came through the door.

That said, the history you presented (that before the creation of Israel in 1948 peace reigned and everybody got along) just isn't true. Violence between Palestinians and Jews started decades before 1948. To take just one significant example, the Arab revolt of 1936 against the British mandatory government saw widespread Palestinian violence directed against Jews, including the massacre of about 80 people in the ancient community of Hebron (which essentially led to the abandonment of Hebron by its Jewish community after some 2000+ years of existence there).

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

Violence between Palestinians and Jews started decades before 1948. To take just one significant example, the Arab revolt of 1936 against the British mandatory government saw widespread Palestinian violence directed against Jews, including the massacre of about 80 people in the ancient community of Hebron (which essentially led to the abandonment of Hebron by its Jewish community after some 2000+ years of existence there).

Like I said, Jews and Arab lived together peacefully for about a thousand years before the Zionists moved in at the turn of the 20th century.

catefrances

yosi wrote:

Viva, I've also spoken with people who have recalled peaceful relations between Jews and Palestinians. By the way, such co-existance still exists in places. I've walked through the markets in the Old City in Jerusalem with an orthodox rabbi who knows all the Palestinian antiquities merchants by name and was greeted warmly by all of them, and I've seen Jewish and Palestinian doctors and nurses working together as colleagues in Israeli hospitals to treat whomever came through the door....

and this behaviour is what needs to be pushed as the norm. none of this divisive action that serves only someones political end at the expense of the people. no change ever came from the top... it has always come from the people... and its to themselves the people of palestine/israel need to look.

Byrnzie

This looks good:

http://us2.campaign-archive1.com/?u=618 ... b5a126516d

Drowned Out

This Is My Land...Hebron

Hebron is a city of conflict and hate. It is home of one of the first Israelis settlements in the West Bank, the only one right in the heart of a Palestinian city. Kicking, spitting, stone-throwing and abuse are part of the daily routine. Children, women, and the army participate in this war between neighbours. The inhabitants of Hebron and people working there explain their daily struggle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUH9vPg7 ... ults_video
(six part documentary)

VivaPalestina

yosi wrote:

Viva, I've also spoken with people who have recalled peaceful relations between Jews and Palestinians. By the way, such co-existance still exists in places. I've walked through the markets in the Old City in Jerusalem with an orthodox rabbi who knows all the Palestinian antiquities merchants by name and was greeted warmly by all of them, and I've seen Jewish and Palestinian doctors and nurses working together as colleagues in Israeli hospitals to treat whomever came through the door.

That said, the history you presented (that before the creation of Israel in 1948 peace reigned and everybody got along) just isn't true. Violence between Palestinians and Jews started decades before 1948. To take just one significant example, the Arab revolt of 1936 against the British mandatory government saw widespread Palestinian violence directed against Jews, including the massacre of about 80 people in the ancient community of Hebron (which essentially led to the abandonment of Hebron by its Jewish community after some 2000+ years of existence there).

For many people it was true. But where would we be without you trying to wrest control of the narrative. The narrative of Palestine before the birth of Zionism does not include YOU. There is a true disconnect between jews who were in Palestine before Zionism and jews like yourself. http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=294067

Again, zionism created the conflict.

whygohome

God/Allah/Yahweh/Bigfoot, please save me from your followers.

VivaPalestina

whygohome wrote:

God/Allah/Yahweh/Bigfoot, please save me from your followers.

Zionism was created by atheists einstein.

whygohome

VivaPalestina wrote:

whygohome wrote:

God/Allah/Yahweh/Bigfoot, please save me from your followers.

Zionism was created by atheists einstein.

Watch your tone, Einstein. I am familiar with the connection between atheism and zionism. My post was directed at religion. And, to say that religion has no role in this conflict is foolish.

VivaPalestina

whygohome wrote:

VivaPalestina wrote:

whygohome wrote:

God/Allah/Yahweh/Bigfoot, please save me from your followers.

Zionism was created by atheists einstein.

Watch your tone, Einstein. I am familiar with the connection between atheism and zionism. My post was directed at religion. And, to say that religion has no role in this conflict is foolish.

No damn connection to be made, Herzl was a flat out atheist. To say that religion has a role in this conflict when the MAIN ideaology that created the conflict was created by Atheists, is perpetuated by Atheists onto Palestinians of ALL faiths is foolish.

whygohome

VivaPalestina wrote:

No damn connection to be made, Herzl was a flat out atheist. To say that religion has a role in this conflict when the MAIN ideaology that created the conflict was created by Atheists, is perpetuated by Atheists onto Palestinians of ALL faiths is foolish.

I am aware of Herzl. I will say again that I do not subscribe to the idea that this conflict rests on the shoulders of one group. Obviously, judging by your user ID, you do. I don't.

VivaPalestina

whygohome wrote:

VivaPalestina wrote:

No damn connection to be made, Herzl was a flat out atheist. To say that religion has a role in this conflict when the MAIN ideaology that created the conflict was created by Atheists, is perpetuated by Atheists onto Palestinians of ALL faiths is foolish.

I am aware of Herzl. I will say again that I do not subscribe to the idea that this conflict rests on the shoulders of one group. Obviously, judging by your user ID, you do. I don't.

Born Palestinian. I'd prefer you don't judge crap and crack open up a book instead. Start with something on Orientalism and see how absurd your holier than thou "I'm an agnostic" post is.

whygohome

VivaPalestina wrote:

whygohome wrote:

VivaPalestina wrote:

No damn connection to be made, Herzl was a flat out atheist. To say that religion has a role in this conflict when the MAIN ideaology that created the conflict was created by Atheists, is perpetuated by Atheists onto Palestinians of ALL faiths is foolish.

I am aware of Herzl. I will say again that I do not subscribe to the idea that this conflict rests on the shoulders of one group. Obviously, judging by your user ID, you do. I don't.

Born Palestinian. I'd prefer you don't judge crap and crack open up a book instead. Start with something on Orientalism and see how absurd your holier than thou "I'm an agnostic" post is.

I've read plenty of Edward Said, thank you. It's kind of funny to tell someone with a PhD in English to open a book and read. That's all I do. And, I'm not talking basic "let's discuss the symbolism of the ducks in Central Park in Catcher in the Rye" shit. I read Said, Fanon, Foucault, Agamben, to name a few who have something to say on this subject and the ideological anchors surrounding these conflicts.

I see no absurdity in stating the fact that I am an agnostic. I have no reservations in stating that I am anti-religion; religion is a fairy tale.

Also, I actually support a Palestinian state and am by no means pro-Israel. And, despite our back and forth, I would be quite happy for you and your people if a solution were to be reached.

VivaPalestina

Whygohome,
Your first post was reductive, flippant and dismissive. The "conflict" is a real and personal thing for me, so when people reduce it to religion and to add to it a way to pat themselves on the back and use it as an opportunity to state their I'm above it attitude because they are an agnostic or atheist is insulting and offensive. And it happens a lot, and it's usually not from people as well read as you, but what can I say, stick to the ducks? I appreciate your support for a Palestinian state. Just want to put it out there that it is not about faith, its about space.

whygohome

VivaPalestina wrote:

Whygohome,
Your first post was reductive, flippant and dismissive.

Correct. My apologies. I just feel very strongly about religion on the global scale and the way that many use it to justify their actions.

VivaPalestina wrote:

The "conflict" is a real and personal thing for me, so when people reduce it to religion and to add to it a way to pat themselves on the back and use it as an opportunity to state their I'm above it attitude because they are an agnostic or atheist is insulting and offensive.

Didn't mean it to be an aloof, holier than thou statement, nor an insulting and offensive one. I just watched a Neil Degrasse Tyson lecture where he looks at religion as a hindrance to progress. I feel the same way at times.

VivaPalestina wrote:

And it happens a lot, and it's usually not from people as well read as you, but what can I say, stick to the ducks? I appreciate your support for a Palestinian state. Just want to put it out there that it is not about faith, its about space.

I am still trying to figure out hwy the ducks go south in the winter.

Cheers to you and a solution to this mess.

p.s. Did you hear Mitt Romney's comments on Palestine? To paraphrase, "Palestine does not want peace."

usamamasan1

I heard Mitt's comments. this guy has earned my vote! Here is the video for anyone who wants to be more educated on the subject. Truth be told. It's noce to hear sometimes ya know?


http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ ... story.html

Believe in America

WOOT!

MookiesLaw

whygohome wrote:

p.s. Did you hear Mitt Romney's comments on Palestine? To paraphrase, "Palestine does not want peace."

The Palestine Papers tell us otherwise.

They have already shown that negotiations brokered by the U.S. for years have been unable to achieve a result. Even when the Palestinians made unprecedented concessions agreeing to allow Israel to annex most of its settlements and made enormous concessions concerning the right of return of Palestinian refugees, Israel was sill not interested in coming to an agreement.

They were offered the deal of a life time and they blew it. Israel is simply not interested in negotiating a solution that could lead to peace anytime soon.

http://www.aljazeera.com/palestinepapers/

Byrnzie

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/11/calls-classify-far-right-jewish-settlers-attacks-soldiers-amos-oz-neo-nazis


Calls to class far-right Jewish settlers as terrorists after Israeli soldiers attacked

Senior ministers Tzipi Livni and Yitzhak Aharonovitch condemn 'price-tag' attacks as author Amos Oz calls militants neo-Nazis



Orlando Crowcroft in Asira al-Qibliya
theguardian.com, Sunday 11 May 2014


Calls are mounting for hardline Jewish settlers to be classified as terrorists after a spate of attacks on Palestinian property in the West Bank and Israel, and threats of violence towards Israeli soldiers.

Last week, the justice minister, Tzipi Livni, and the internal security minister, Yitzhak Aharonovitch, both argued that rightwing extremists should be classified as terrorists following attacks on soldiers at the hardline West Bank settlement of Yitzhar.

And on Friday, the Israeli prize laureate author Amos Oz described the hardline Jewish settlers that carry out so-called "price tag" attacks on Palestinians as neo-Nazis.

"Our neo-Nazi groups enjoy the support of numerous nationalist or even racist legislators, as well as rabbis who give them what is in my view pseudo-religious justification," the 75-year-old said at an event in Tel Aviv.

It is not the first time that politicians and public figures in Israel have called for the branding of rightwing settlers as terrorists, but recent events have coalesced into something of a perfect storm.

A spate of vandalism in Jerusalem and Galilee has seen rightwing groups target Christians ahead of the visit of Pope Francis, including a graffiti attack on the Vatican building where he is due to stay later this month.

Meanwhile, in the hardline settlement of Yitzhar, police arrested a woman for inciting violence towards the IDF, just weeks after Israeli soldiers were attacked when they attempted to dismantle a settler outpost.

It also coincides with the failure of the recent round of peace talks, with senior politicians and peace-talks negotiators in the US, Israel and Palestine attributing the breakdown to settlement activity, among other factors.

But in the hillside West Bank village of Asira al-Qibliya, which is just 300 metres from Yitzhar, Palestinian villagers see the recent backlash as a case of too little, too late.

"It is only words. We don't want words, we want deeds," said Bassem Salah, 50, a construction worker.

His neighbour Ibrahim Makhlouf, 52, a teacher, also dismissed the comments of Israeli politicians, given the support that the Israeli state provides to settlements in the West Bank.

"They say it is a minority, but it is a minority supported by both the government and the army – they receive free water, free electricity, the government spend millions of dollars on them. Who are they trying to kid?" said Makhlouf.

His two-storey home is the closest in the village to Yitzhar, and last year a French NGO installed a metal grate across one side of the building after his windows were broken regularly by stone-throwing radical Zionists.

He says that the situation has improved since 2012, when villagers were given cameras to document the attacks. In the past, settlers would tell the IDF that they were provoked, he said, but faced with video evidence the soldiers have been forced to act.

But the father-of-four still believes that settlements such as Yitzhar remain the biggest barrier to peace between Israel and Palestine.

"As long as there is a settlement here I don't see a future. This settlement needs to be evacuated. We don't want Palestine from the river to the sea, we just want them to leave our home town," he said.

"Abu Mazen [Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas] should stop security co-operation, he should stop negotiations. Before the [1994] Oslo Accords the settlement was 9km away, now it is 300 metres. What have we received from the peace process? More settlements."

"There is no compromise," added Salah, "it is us or them."

A spokesperson for Yitzhar did not reply to requests for comment.

yosi

VivaPalestina said:

yosi" said:

Viva, I've also spoken with people who have recalled peaceful relations between Jews and Palestinians. By the way, such co-existance still exists in places. I've walked through the markets in the Old City in Jerusalem with an orthodox rabbi who knows all the Palestinian antiquities merchants by name and was greeted warmly by all of them, and I've seen Jewish and Palestinian doctors and nurses working together as colleagues in Israeli hospitals to treat whomever came through the door.

That said, the history you presented (that before the creation of Israel in 1948 peace reigned and everybody got along) just isn't true. Violence between Palestinians and Jews started decades before 1948. To take just one significant example, the Arab revolt of 1936 against the British mandatory government saw widespread Palestinian violence directed against Jews, including the massacre of about 80 people in the ancient community of Hebron (which essentially led to the abandonment of Hebron by its Jewish community after some 2000+ years of existence there).

For many people it was true. But where would we be without you trying to wrest control of the narrative. The narrative of Palestine before the birth of Zionism does not include YOU. There is a true disconnect between jews who were in Palestine before Zionism and jews like yourself. http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=294067

Again, zionism created the conflict.

I realize that I'm responding to comments made almost two years ago, but I was rereading some of the thread after it got bumped up and felt an impulse to respond. So...

Viva, I had (and have) no desire to wrest control of the narrative. To my mind each side in the conflict has its own valid narrative both of which contain truths and falsehoods (perhaps omissions or distortions would be a better phrasing). You may not agree, but that is my opinion. I don't expect you to accept the truth of my narrative at the expense of your own, but please don't expect from me what you would not accept for yourself. Ideally, to my mind, each side would be able to acknowledge some of the truth contained in the narrative of the other. For example, I am an ardent Zionist and celebrate the founding of Israel for what it meant to my people (a return to our homeland, a refuge, the realization of our dream for self-determination). That doesn't mean that I cannot acknowledge the truth of the Nakba for the Palestinians and feel empathy for their (your) suffering. To my mind, to paraphrase Amos Oz, the conflict is a tragedy precisely because it is a clash between a pair of equally valid national claims. My hope is that eventually you may be able to likewise come to understand some of the truth of my people's narrative. It's that kind of understanding that will be necessary for there to eventually be a real reconciliation.

All that said, I generally find discussions of narrative unproductive. It invariably devolves into angry disputes over historical blame which don't get anyone anywhere. So long as the conflict persists it isn't realistic or helpful for either side to insist that the truth of its narrative be generally accepted. As you said, the conflict is about borders and it should be resolved on that basis alone. Israel and Palestine can exist peacefully side by side without agreeing on how to apportion historical blame. All that can be hashed out as part of a reconciliation process after there are two states and a peace accord.

yosi

Also, earlier in the thread you spoke about there being "a Zionist government in power in Israel." What other sort of government is there supposed to be in Israel if not a Zionist one? Zionism is the Jewish aspiration for national self-determination, and the state is the embodiment and fulfillment of that aspiration. The assertion that there could be a government in Israel that is not Zionist is tantamount to rejecting the national right of the Jewish people to self-determination. That may well be your position, but you should understand that Israel will never agree to give up its Zionist character. Expecting that it will would be like me expecting Palestinians to agree that they have no unifying national character, give up any claim to Palestine, and just move to Jordan (I don't expect that, nor does it reflect my beliefs or desires, just so there's no confusion). My point is simply that your approach to Zionism imposes your narrative on my people, and you should be able to understand when we object to the imposition.