An alleged hate crime against Palestinians in West Jerusalem this week, which left one young man unconscious and in the hospital, underscores a troubling reality: that Israeli teens are more militantly anti-Arab than their parents and increasingly more prone to rejecting democratic values.
In recent years, the trend has become apparent in survey after survey, including those conducted by think tanks and commercial pollsters. It’s also borne out anecdotally in both Israel and the West Bank, where attacks by Israeli youngsters against Palestinians appear to be on the rise.
In the latest incident, at least five teens are suspected of punching and kicking a Palestinian nearly to death over the weekend at a crowded public square in Jerusalem, as dozens of other youngsters looked on. The Palestinian, 17-year-old Jamal Julani, collapsed and stopped breathing at one point, but was resuscitated and is now in stable condition.
A police spokesman said the five suspects—three boys and two girls, ages 13 to 19—were in custody and being questioned. “For my part, he can die,” one of the suspects, a 15-year-old, told reporters outside of the courtroom, in reference to Julani. “He’s an Arab.”
The attack was unusual in its brazenness. According to the police spokesman, the teens allegedly roved Jerusalem’s downtown area chanting anti-Arab slogans and looking for victims before setting on Julani and several of his friends. Other violence against Palestinians in recent years has been more clandestine, including mosque burnings and roadside ambushes.
While Israelis across the political spectrum have criticized the attacks, analysts pointed to a rising intolerance of Arabs among youths that appears to have kindled anti-Arab violence.
“It’s definitely a trend,” says Roby Nathanson, an Israeli economist who studies political attitudes among young Israelis.
The institute Nathanson runs, the Macro Center for Political Economics, has conducted three comprehensive surveys since 1998 that show a steady hardening of views.
In the latest study, published last year, 28 percent of Jewish Israelis ages 15 to 18 said the word “hatred” best expressed their feelings toward Arabs. Seventy-two percent said they definitely would not want Arab citizens of Israel living in their neighborhood, and 77 percent said they would be unwilling to invite an Arab to their homes.
Seventy percent opposed the idea of a Palestinian state if it entailed significant Israeli concessions.
The institute’s questions in previous surveys were not identical, but Nathanson they said they were close enough to highlight the shift. In the 1998 study, for example, 92 percent of those polled said it was important for Israel to live at peace with its neighbors.
The more recent study also showed that 57 percent of Israeli teens identified their political leaning as right or moderately right compared with just 13 percent who said it was left or moderately left. When asked whether a few “strong leaders could fix the situation in the country better than all the laws and public discussions,” 60 percent said they either agreed or strongly agreed.
In almost all their responses, the positions articulated by Israeli teens were more hardline than those of their elders.
“What we see is a sharp decline in the youngsters’ acceptance of the Arab minority,” Nathanson told The Daily Beast. “They are intolerant and not willing to accept the fact that Arabs are equal citizens.”
Arab citizens of Israel number about 1.6 million, or some 20 percent of the country’s population. Israel’s Declaration of Independence guarantees them equal rights, though Israeli-Arabs often complain of institutional or social discrimination.
Another 4.2 million Palestinians live in the West Bank and Gaza, under severely restrictive Israeli military rule.
Julani, the victim of the alleged hate crime and a resident of East Jerusalem, represents a third category: Palestinians with residency rights in Israel but usually without citizenship.
Nathanson explained the radicalization of Israeli teens as largely the result of a second Palestinian uprising between 2000 and 2005—a time when bus bombings and suicide attacks at restaurants and cafés were a common occurrence.
The Palestinian attacks have largely subsided since Israel erected a barrier around most of the West Bank.
Other analysts attributed it to the education system, which they said had changed over the past decade under successive right-wing governments.
“I believe that the school system in recent years is lacking very much themes that are related to tolerance, human rights, liberal democracy,” said Daniel Bar-Tal, a professor of political psychology at Tel Aviv University.
“In Europe, there’s a very coordinated and systematic attempt to impart values that we would call humanistic, moral, democratic, in line with human rights. Israel is really behind,” he said.
Dahlia Scheindlin, a public-opinion analyst and columnist for the left-wing online magazine 972, said the political views among teens can also be explained in terms of Israeli demographic trends in which Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Jews—populations that traditionally lean right politically—have the highest birthrates in the country.
“It’s a straight curve from secular to religious—the more religious you get, the more hardline you tend to be,” she said.
Earlier this month, the U.S. State Department designated settler assaults on Palestinians as terrorist attacks for the first time, including them in its list of “terrorist incidents” around the world.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
In the latest incident, at least five teens are suspected of punching and kicking a Palestinian nearly to death over the weekend at a crowded public square in Jerusalem, as dozens of other youngsters looked on. The Palestinian, 17-year-old Jamal Julani, collapsed and stopped breathing at one point, but was resuscitated and is now in stable condition.
A police spokesman said the five suspects—three boys and two girls, ages 13 to 19—were in custody and being questioned. “For my part, he can die,” one of the suspects, a 15-year-old, told reporters outside of the courtroom, in reference to Julani. “He’s an Arab.”
Usamamasan1, do you support this attack on a Palestinian, and others like it?
Your response to the news that Jewish Settler attacks have been classed as acts of terrorism by the U.S was to label Obama an extremist.
Therefore I take it that you support Jewish acts of terrorism, including the above incident? Yes, or no?
Former Israeli soldiers disclose routine mistreatment of Palestinian children
Booklet of testimonies of former Israeli soldiers describes beatings, intimidation and humiliation of children
Harriet Sherwood in Jerusalem
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 26 August 2012
More than 30 former Israeli soldiers have disclosed their experiences of the treatment of Palestinian children during military operations and arrests, pointing to a pattern of abuse.
A booklet of testimonies, published by Breaking the Silence, an organisation of former Israeli soldiers dedicated to publicising the day-to-day actions of the army in the occupied territories, contains descriptions of beatings, intimidation, humiliation, verbal abuse, night-time arrests and injury. Most of the children are suspected of stone-throwing.
The witness statements were gathered to show the "common reality" of acts of violence by soldiers towards Palestinians, including children, in the West Bank, said Yehuda Shaul of Breaking the Silence. "Sadly enough this is the moral consequence of prolonged occupation of the Palestinian people," he said.
One of the ex-soldiers describes serving in Hebron in 2010: "You never know their names, you never talk with them, they always cry, shit in their pants … There are those annoying moments when you're on an arrest mission, and there's no room in the police station, so you just take the kid back with you, blindfold him, put him in a room and wait for the police to come and pick him up in the morning. He sits there like a dog …"
Children frequently soiled themselves, according to the testimonies. "I remember hearing him shitting his pants … I also remember some other time when someone pissed in his pants. I just became so indifferent to it, I couldn't care less. I heard him do it, I witnessed his embarrassment. I also smelled it. But I didn't care," said another.
Another soldier describes an incident in Qalqiliya in 2007 in which a boy was arrested for throwing stones. "At the end of the day, something has to make these kids stop throwing stones on the road because they can kill," he said.
"That specific kid who actually lay there on the ground, begging for his life, was actually nine years old. I think of our kids, nine years old, and a kid handling this kind of situation, I mean, a kid has to beg for his life? A loaded gun is pointed at him and he has to plead for mercy? This is something that scars him for life. But I think if we hadn't entered the village at that point, then stones would be thrown the next day and perhaps the next time someone would be wounded or killed as a result."
Some of the statements illustrate the disjunction between the Israeli military and Palestinians. One soldier said: "You put up a checkpoint out of boredom, sit there for a few hours and then continue on. Once I saw kids passing, and one of the guys, a reservist who spoke Arabic, wanted to ask them what they study. He didn't mean it in any bad way. Then I saw how the kid nearly peed his pants as the guy tried to kid with him, how the two worlds are simply disconnected. The guy was kidding and the kid was scared to death."
Most of the soldiers have given testimonies anonymously. One, who spoke to the Guardian, said that he had been given no guidance during his training for military service on how to deal with minors. He said children were sometimes arrested and interrogated, not because they were suspected of an offence, but to try to elicit information about older family members or neighbours.
He had given a witness statement to Breaking the Silence because: "I thought that people who don't see this on an everyday basis should know what's going on." He said many Israelis were unwilling to acknowledge the reality of the military occupation in the West Bank. "It's very easy [for the Israeli public] to be completely detached. It's a hard thing to handle – stuff like that being done in your name."
According to Gerard Horton, of Defence for Children International – Palestine (DCI), the testimonies reflect and confirm a pattern of behaviour uncovered by his organisation's extensive research into the treatment of Palestinian children by the Israeli security forces.
DCI and other human rights organisations say Palestinian children are routinely arrested at night, handcuffed, blindfolded, mistreated and denied access to their parents or a lawyer.
"For years credible reports of human rights abuses against children living under Israeli military occupation have emerged," he said. "These latest testimonies from young soldiers given the task of enforcing the occupation provide further evidence of its deeply corrosive effects on all. The testimonies lay bare the day-to-day reality of the occupation. These are not isolated incidents or a question of 'a few bad apples'. This is the natural and foreseeable consequence of government policy."
A spokesman for the Israeli Defence Forces said that Breaking the Silence had declined to provide the IDF with testimonies ahead of publication so they could be verified and investigated.
Its true intention was "to generate negative publicity regarding the IDF and its soldiers. The IDF has in the past, and continues to, call upon the organisation to immediately convey complaints or suspicions of improper conduct to the relevant authorities. In line with the IDF's ethical commitments, any such incidents will be thoroughly investigated."
In the latest incident, at least five teens are suspected of punching and kicking a Palestinian nearly to death over the weekend at a crowded public square in Jerusalem, as dozens of other youngsters looked on. The Palestinian, 17-year-old Jamal Julani, collapsed and stopped breathing at one point, but was resuscitated and is now in stable condition.
A police spokesman said the five suspects—three boys and two girls, ages 13 to 19—were in custody and being questioned. “For my part, he can die,” one of the suspects, a 15-year-old, told reporters outside of the courtroom, in reference to Julani. “He’s an Arab.”
Usamamasan1, do you support this attack on a Palestinian, and others like it?
Your response to the news that Jewish Settler attacks have been classed as acts of terrorism by the U.S was to label Obama an extremist.
Therefore I take it that you support Jewish acts of terrorism, including the above incident? Yes, or no?
:corn:
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Former Israeli soldiers disclose routine mistreatment of Palestinian children
Booklet of testimonies of former Israeli soldiers describes beatings, intimidation and humiliation of children
Harriet Sherwood in Jerusalem
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 26 August 2012
More than 30 former Israeli soldiers have disclosed their experiences of the treatment of Palestinian children during military operations and arrests, pointing to a pattern of abuse.
A booklet of testimonies, published by Breaking the Silence, an organisation of former Israeli soldiers dedicated to publicising the day-to-day actions of the army in the occupied territories, contains descriptions of beatings, intimidation, humiliation, verbal abuse, night-time arrests and injury. Most of the children are suspected of stone-throwing.
The witness statements were gathered to show the "common reality" of acts of violence by soldiers towards Palestinians, including children, in the West Bank, said Yehuda Shaul of Breaking the Silence. "Sadly enough this is the moral consequence of prolonged occupation of the Palestinian people," he said.
One of the ex-soldiers describes serving in Hebron in 2010: "You never know their names, you never talk with them, they always cry, shit in their pants … There are those annoying moments when you're on an arrest mission, and there's no room in the police station, so you just take the kid back with you, blindfold him, put him in a room and wait for the police to come and pick him up in the morning. He sits there like a dog …"
Children frequently soiled themselves, according to the testimonies. "I remember hearing him shitting his pants … I also remember some other time when someone pissed in his pants. I just became so indifferent to it, I couldn't care less. I heard him do it, I witnessed his embarrassment. I also smelled it. But I didn't care," said another.
Another soldier describes an incident in Qalqiliya in 2007 in which a boy was arrested for throwing stones. "At the end of the day, something has to make these kids stop throwing stones on the road because they can kill," he said.
"That specific kid who actually lay there on the ground, begging for his life, was actually nine years old. I think of our kids, nine years old, and a kid handling this kind of situation, I mean, a kid has to beg for his life? A loaded gun is pointed at him and he has to plead for mercy? This is something that scars him for life. But I think if we hadn't entered the village at that point, then stones would be thrown the next day and perhaps the next time someone would be wounded or killed as a result."
Some of the statements illustrate the disjunction between the Israeli military and Palestinians. One soldier said: "You put up a checkpoint out of boredom, sit there for a few hours and then continue on. Once I saw kids passing, and one of the guys, a reservist who spoke Arabic, wanted to ask them what they study. He didn't mean it in any bad way. Then I saw how the kid nearly peed his pants as the guy tried to kid with him, how the two worlds are simply disconnected. The guy was kidding and the kid was scared to death."
Most of the soldiers have given testimonies anonymously. One, who spoke to the Guardian, said that he had been given no guidance during his training for military service on how to deal with minors. He said children were sometimes arrested and interrogated, not because they were suspected of an offence, but to try to elicit information about older family members or neighbours.
He had given a witness statement to Breaking the Silence because: "I thought that people who don't see this on an everyday basis should know what's going on." He said many Israelis were unwilling to acknowledge the reality of the military occupation in the West Bank. "It's very easy [for the Israeli public] to be completely detached. It's a hard thing to handle – stuff like that being done in your name."
According to Gerard Horton, of Defence for Children International – Palestine (DCI), the testimonies reflect and confirm a pattern of behaviour uncovered by his organisation's extensive research into the treatment of Palestinian children by the Israeli security forces.
DCI and other human rights organisations say Palestinian children are routinely arrested at night, handcuffed, blindfolded, mistreated and denied access to their parents or a lawyer.
"For years credible reports of human rights abuses against children living under Israeli military occupation have emerged," he said. "These latest testimonies from young soldiers given the task of enforcing the occupation provide further evidence of its deeply corrosive effects on all. The testimonies lay bare the day-to-day reality of the occupation. These are not isolated incidents or a question of 'a few bad apples'. This is the natural and foreseeable consequence of government policy."
A spokesman for the Israeli Defence Forces said that Breaking the Silence had declined to provide the IDF with testimonies ahead of publication so they could be verified and investigated.
Its true intention was "to generate negative publicity regarding the IDF and its soldiers. The IDF has in the past, and continues to, call upon the organisation to immediately convey complaints or suspicions of improper conduct to the relevant authorities. In line with the IDF's ethical commitments, any such incidents will be thoroughly investigated."
:evil:
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Former Israeli soldiers disclose routine mistreatment of Palestinian children
Booklet of testimonies of former Israeli soldiers describes beatings, intimidation and humiliation of children
Harriet Sherwood in Jerusalem
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 26 August 2012
More than 30 former Israeli soldiers have disclosed their experiences of the treatment of Palestinian children during military operations and arrests, pointing to a pattern of abuse.
A booklet of testimonies, published by Breaking the Silence, an organisation of former Israeli soldiers dedicated to publicising the day-to-day actions of the army in the occupied territories, contains descriptions of beatings, intimidation, humiliation, verbal abuse, night-time arrests and injury. Most of the children are suspected of stone-throwing.
The witness statements were gathered to show the "common reality" of acts of violence by soldiers towards Palestinians, including children, in the West Bank, said Yehuda Shaul of Breaking the Silence. "Sadly enough this is the moral consequence of prolonged occupation of the Palestinian people," he said.
One of the ex-soldiers describes serving in Hebron in 2010: "You never know their names, you never talk with them, they always cry, shit in their pants … There are those annoying moments when you're on an arrest mission, and there's no room in the police station, so you just take the kid back with you, blindfold him, put him in a room and wait for the police to come and pick him up in the morning. He sits there like a dog …"
Children frequently soiled themselves, according to the testimonies. "I remember hearing him shitting his pants … I also remember some other time when someone pissed in his pants. I just became so indifferent to it, I couldn't care less. I heard him do it, I witnessed his embarrassment. I also smelled it. But I didn't care," said another.
Another soldier describes an incident in Qalqiliya in 2007 in which a boy was arrested for throwing stones. "At the end of the day, something has to make these kids stop throwing stones on the road because they can kill," he said.
"That specific kid who actually lay there on the ground, begging for his life, was actually nine years old. I think of our kids, nine years old, and a kid handling this kind of situation, I mean, a kid has to beg for his life? A loaded gun is pointed at him and he has to plead for mercy? This is something that scars him for life. But I think if we hadn't entered the village at that point, then stones would be thrown the next day and perhaps the next time someone would be wounded or killed as a result."
Some of the statements illustrate the disjunction between the Israeli military and Palestinians. One soldier said: "You put up a checkpoint out of boredom, sit there for a few hours and then continue on. Once I saw kids passing, and one of the guys, a reservist who spoke Arabic, wanted to ask them what they study. He didn't mean it in any bad way. Then I saw how the kid nearly peed his pants as the guy tried to kid with him, how the two worlds are simply disconnected. The guy was kidding and the kid was scared to death."
Most of the soldiers have given testimonies anonymously. One, who spoke to the Guardian, said that he had been given no guidance during his training for military service on how to deal with minors. He said children were sometimes arrested and interrogated, not because they were suspected of an offence, but to try to elicit information about older family members or neighbours.
He had given a witness statement to Breaking the Silence because: "I thought that people who don't see this on an everyday basis should know what's going on." He said many Israelis were unwilling to acknowledge the reality of the military occupation in the West Bank. "It's very easy [for the Israeli public] to be completely detached. It's a hard thing to handle – stuff like that being done in your name."
According to Gerard Horton, of Defence for Children International – Palestine (DCI), the testimonies reflect and confirm a pattern of behaviour uncovered by his organisation's extensive research into the treatment of Palestinian children by the Israeli security forces.
DCI and other human rights organisations say Palestinian children are routinely arrested at night, handcuffed, blindfolded, mistreated and denied access to their parents or a lawyer.
"For years credible reports of human rights abuses against children living under Israeli military occupation have emerged," he said. "These latest testimonies from young soldiers given the task of enforcing the occupation provide further evidence of its deeply corrosive effects on all. The testimonies lay bare the day-to-day reality of the occupation. These are not isolated incidents or a question of 'a few bad apples'. This is the natural and foreseeable consequence of government policy."
A spokesman for the Israeli Defence Forces said that Breaking the Silence had declined to provide the IDF with testimonies ahead of publication so they could be verified and investigated.
Its true intention was "to generate negative publicity regarding the IDF and its soldiers. The IDF has in the past, and continues to, call upon the organisation to immediately convey complaints or suspicions of improper conduct to the relevant authorities. In line with the IDF's ethical commitments, any such incidents will be thoroughly investigated."
I'm SOOOOO proud to call Israel our ally....... :roll: :oops: :evil: :nono:
VivaPalestina thank you for your reply ! it good to hear first hand info,from this point on I will not comment about middle eastern politics,it's plain to see I don't know to much about them and the media is not helping me much here.
Thank you.
Godfather.
I am glad you commented, that allowed me to share what I have learned. I think the Moving Train, when done right, allows us to learn from each other. Your posts have informed me and in the future I look forward to more exchanges. I know you are a good person, and a lot of Americans are good people, but the US media for various reasons have made it pretty hard for the general public to know the past and present realities of the Palestinian situation. A few have been misinformed, and the first reaction is to shut me and other Palestinians out of the conversation/narrative. So when people just listen to what we have to say about our experiences, and not necessarily "take a side" it is a nice surprise. Thanks for being open and listening
Godfather,
But there hasn’t, in all honesty and I have heard from elders, both Jewish and Palestinians who lived in Palestine before the state of Israel was created in 1948 and conflict never entered any of the stories I heard. A Jewish man in his 80s about 15 years ago, was proud to tell me how he and his Palestinians neighbors tried to help each other out under the British Mandate. And the stories I have heard from Palestinians who lived in Palestine before 1948, was just about how they lived as farmers, how they struggled with that and just about when they are about to reap the fruits of their labor so to speak, the state of Israel was created. Those were firsthand accounts.
The problem, I promise you, is a relatively new one with the creation of Zionism at the turn of the century. Conflict began after Palestinians got wind of what was about to befall them: that a lot of these newly arrived Jews were there to make aliyah, ie, to “settle” and take a land for themselves that was already settled by the Palestinians for centuries. Before Zionism there was never a push by Jews worldwide to go Palestine. They never sought to usurp another’s land. There never was a state of Israel before 1948.
so how do we go about trying to fix it? there is a zionist government in power in israel, and the us policy is to support that government. there was talk that the netanyahu government was going to be dissolved, but what would it have been replaced with? it is a shame because like in the us, the moderates get crushed by the extremists...
I think the only way forward is for the Israelis is to see us and treat us as their equals and become a true democracy, a state for all of its citizens. The Netanyahu government is a hawkish government, and I don’t see anyone better replacing him. I really don’t think any Israeli government would ever end the occupation or its Apartheid policies.Maybe the only way out for the Palestinians is a non-violent uprising.
I think the only way forward is for the Israelis is to see us and treat us as their equals and become a true democracy, a state for all of its citizens. The Netanyahu government is a hawkish government, and I don’t see anyone better replacing him. I really don’t think any Israeli government would ever end the occupation or its Apartheid policies.Maybe the only way out for the Palestinians is a non-violent uprising.
they will not end the occupation. even in the face of international pressure from all but the US and a few other countries, they will not stop the occupation. the only thing that will get the occupation to stop in my eyes is if there is multilateral sanctions put on israel, or even a multilateral military action. military action would be an insane decision, but sometimes the only way to deal with a bully is to punch him in the face and apply a rear naked choke...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Viva, I've also spoken with people who have recalled peaceful relations between Jews and Palestinians. By the way, such co-existance still exists in places. I've walked through the markets in the Old City in Jerusalem with an orthodox rabbi who knows all the Palestinian antiquities merchants by name and was greeted warmly by all of them, and I've seen Jewish and Palestinian doctors and nurses working together as colleagues in Israeli hospitals to treat whomever came through the door.
That said, the history you presented (that before the creation of Israel in 1948 peace reigned and everybody got along) just isn't true. Violence between Palestinians and Jews started decades before 1948. To take just one significant example, the Arab revolt of 1936 against the British mandatory government saw widespread Palestinian violence directed against Jews, including the massacre of about 80 people in the ancient community of Hebron (which essentially led to the abandonment of Hebron by its Jewish community after some 2000+ years of existence there).
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Violence between Palestinians and Jews started decades before 1948. To take just one significant example, the Arab revolt of 1936 against the British mandatory government saw widespread Palestinian violence directed against Jews, including the massacre of about 80 people in the ancient community of Hebron (which essentially led to the abandonment of Hebron by its Jewish community after some 2000+ years of existence there).
Like I said, Jews and Arab lived together peacefully for about a thousand years before the Zionists moved in at the turn of the 20th century.
Viva, I've also spoken with people who have recalled peaceful relations between Jews and Palestinians. By the way, such co-existance still exists in places. I've walked through the markets in the Old City in Jerusalem with an orthodox rabbi who knows all the Palestinian antiquities merchants by name and was greeted warmly by all of them, and I've seen Jewish and Palestinian doctors and nurses working together as colleagues in Israeli hospitals to treat whomever came through the door....
and this behaviour is what needs to be pushed as the norm. none of this divisive action that serves only someones political end at the expense of the people. no change ever came from the top... it has always come from the people... and its to themselves the people of palestine/israel need to look.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Hebron is a city of conflict and hate. It is home of one of the first Israelis settlements in the West Bank, the only one right in the heart of a Palestinian city. Kicking, spitting, stone-throwing and abuse are part of the daily routine. Children, women, and the army participate in this war between neighbours. The inhabitants of Hebron and people working there explain their daily struggle.
Viva, I've also spoken with people who have recalled peaceful relations between Jews and Palestinians. By the way, such co-existance still exists in places. I've walked through the markets in the Old City in Jerusalem with an orthodox rabbi who knows all the Palestinian antiquities merchants by name and was greeted warmly by all of them, and I've seen Jewish and Palestinian doctors and nurses working together as colleagues in Israeli hospitals to treat whomever came through the door.
That said, the history you presented (that before the creation of Israel in 1948 peace reigned and everybody got along) just isn't true. Violence between Palestinians and Jews started decades before 1948. To take just one significant example, the Arab revolt of 1936 against the British mandatory government saw widespread Palestinian violence directed against Jews, including the massacre of about 80 people in the ancient community of Hebron (which essentially led to the abandonment of Hebron by its Jewish community after some 2000+ years of existence there).
For many people it was true. But where would we be without you trying to wrest control of the narrative. The narrative of Palestine before the birth of Zionism does not include YOU. There is a true disconnect between jews who were in Palestine before Zionism and jews like yourself. http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=294067
God/Allah/Yahweh/Bigfoot, please save me from your followers.
Zionism was created by atheists einstein.
Watch your tone, Einstein. I am familiar with the connection between atheism and zionism. My post was directed at religion. And, to say that religion has no role in this conflict is foolish.
God/Allah/Yahweh/Bigfoot, please save me from your followers.
Zionism was created by atheists einstein.
Watch your tone, Einstein. I am familiar with the connection between atheism and zionism. My post was directed at religion. And, to say that religion has no role in this conflict is foolish.
No damn connection to be made, Herzl was a flat out atheist. To say that religion has a role in this conflict when the MAIN ideaology that created the conflict was created by Atheists, is perpetuated by Atheists onto Palestinians of ALL faiths is foolish.
No damn connection to be made, Herzl was a flat out atheist. To say that religion has a role in this conflict when the MAIN ideaology that created the conflict was created by Atheists, is perpetuated by Atheists onto Palestinians of ALL faiths is foolish.
I am aware of Herzl. I will say again that I do not subscribe to the idea that this conflict rests on the shoulders of one group. Obviously, judging by your user ID, you do. I don't.
No damn connection to be made, Herzl was a flat out atheist. To say that religion has a role in this conflict when the MAIN ideaology that created the conflict was created by Atheists, is perpetuated by Atheists onto Palestinians of ALL faiths is foolish.
I am aware of Herzl. I will say again that I do not subscribe to the idea that this conflict rests on the shoulders of one group. Obviously, judging by your user ID, you do. I don't.
Born Palestinian. I'd prefer you don't judge crap and crack open up a book instead. Start with something on Orientalism and see how absurd your holier than thou "I'm an agnostic" post is.
No damn connection to be made, Herzl was a flat out atheist. To say that religion has a role in this conflict when the MAIN ideaology that created the conflict was created by Atheists, is perpetuated by Atheists onto Palestinians of ALL faiths is foolish.
I am aware of Herzl. I will say again that I do not subscribe to the idea that this conflict rests on the shoulders of one group. Obviously, judging by your user ID, you do. I don't.
Born Palestinian. I'd prefer you don't judge crap and crack open up a book instead. Start with something on Orientalism and see how absurd your holier than thou "I'm an agnostic" post is.
I've read plenty of Edward Said, thank you. It's kind of funny to tell someone with a PhD in English to open a book and read. That's all I do. And, I'm not talking basic "let's discuss the symbolism of the ducks in Central Park in Catcher in the Rye" shit. I read Said, Fanon, Foucault, Agamben, to name a few who have something to say on this subject and the ideological anchors surrounding these conflicts.
I see no absurdity in stating the fact that I am an agnostic. I have no reservations in stating that I am anti-religion; religion is a fairy tale.
Also, I actually support a Palestinian state and am by no means pro-Israel. And, despite our back and forth, I would be quite happy for you and your people if a solution were to be reached.
Whygohome,
Your first post was reductive, flippant and dismissive. The "conflict" is a real and personal thing for me, so when people reduce it to religion and to add to it a way to pat themselves on the back and use it as an opportunity to state their I'm above it attitude because they are an agnostic or atheist is insulting and offensive. And it happens a lot, and it's usually not from people as well read as you, but what can I say, stick to the ducks? I appreciate your support for a Palestinian state. Just want to put it out there that it is not about faith, its about space.
The "conflict" is a real and personal thing for me, so when people reduce it to religion and to add to it a way to pat themselves on the back and use it as an opportunity to state their I'm above it attitude because they are an agnostic or atheist is insulting and offensive.
Didn't mean it to be an aloof, holier than thou statement, nor an insulting and offensive one. I just watched a Neil Degrasse Tyson lecture where he looks at religion as a hindrance to progress. I feel the same way at times.
And it happens a lot, and it's usually not from people as well read as you, but what can I say, stick to the ducks? I appreciate your support for a Palestinian state. Just want to put it out there that it is not about faith, its about space.
I am still trying to figure out hwy the ducks go south in the winter.
Cheers to you and a solution to this mess.
p.s. Did you hear Mitt Romney's comments on Palestine? To paraphrase, "Palestine does not want peace."
I heard Mitt's comments. this guy has earned my vote! Here is the video for anyone who wants to be more educated on the subject. Truth be told. It's noce to hear sometimes ya know?
p.s. Did you hear Mitt Romney's comments on Palestine? To paraphrase, "Palestine does not want peace."
The Palestine Papers tell us otherwise.
They have already shown that negotiations brokered by the U.S. for years have been unable to achieve a result. Even when the Palestinians made unprecedented concessions agreeing to allow Israel to annex most of its settlements and made enormous concessions concerning the right of return of Palestinian refugees, Israel was sill not interested in coming to an agreement.
They were offered the deal of a life time and they blew it. Israel is simply not interested in negotiating a solution that could lead to peace anytime soon.
Calls to class far-right Jewish settlers as terrorists after Israeli soldiers attacked
Senior ministers Tzipi Livni and Yitzhak Aharonovitch condemn 'price-tag' attacks as author Amos Oz calls militants neo-Nazis
Orlando Crowcroft in Asira al-Qibliya theguardian.com, Sunday 11 May 2014
Calls are mounting for hardline Jewish settlers to be classified as terrorists after a spate of attacks on Palestinian property in the West Bank and Israel, and threats of violence towards Israeli soldiers.
Last week, the justice minister, Tzipi Livni, and the internal security minister, Yitzhak Aharonovitch, both argued that rightwing extremists should be classified as terrorists following attacks on soldiers at the hardline West Bank settlement of Yitzhar.
And on Friday, the Israeli prize laureate author Amos Oz described the hardline Jewish settlers that carry out so-called "price tag" attacks on Palestinians as neo-Nazis.
"Our neo-Nazi groups enjoy the support of numerous nationalist or even racist legislators, as well as rabbis who give them what is in my view pseudo-religious justification," the 75-year-old said at an event in Tel Aviv.
It is not the first time that politicians and public figures in Israel have called for the branding of rightwing settlers as terrorists, but recent events have coalesced into something of a perfect storm.
A spate of vandalism in Jerusalem and Galilee has seen rightwing groups target Christians ahead of the visit of Pope Francis, including a graffiti attack on the Vatican building where he is due to stay later this month.
Meanwhile, in the hardline settlement of Yitzhar, police arrested a woman for inciting violence towards the IDF, just weeks after Israeli soldiers were attacked when they attempted to dismantle a settler outpost.
It also coincides with the failure of the recent round of peace talks, with senior politicians and peace-talks negotiators in the US, Israel and Palestine attributing the breakdown to settlement activity, among other factors.
But in the hillside West Bank village of Asira al-Qibliya, which is just 300 metres from Yitzhar, Palestinian villagers see the recent backlash as a case of too little, too late.
"It is only words. We don't want words, we want deeds," said Bassem Salah, 50, a construction worker.
His neighbour Ibrahim Makhlouf, 52, a teacher, also dismissed the comments of Israeli politicians, given the support that the Israeli state provides to settlements in the West Bank.
"They say it is a minority, but it is a minority supported by both the government and the army – they receive free water, free electricity, the government spend millions of dollars on them. Who are they trying to kid?" said Makhlouf.
His two-storey home is the closest in the village to Yitzhar, and last year a French NGO installed a metal grate across one side of the building after his windows were broken regularly by stone-throwing radical Zionists.
He says that the situation has improved since 2012, when villagers were given cameras to document the attacks. In the past, settlers would tell the IDF that they were provoked, he said, but faced with video evidence the soldiers have been forced to act.
But the father-of-four still believes that settlements such as Yitzhar remain the biggest barrier to peace between Israel and Palestine.
"As long as there is a settlement here I don't see a future. This settlement needs to be evacuated. We don't want Palestine from the river to the sea, we just want them to leave our home town," he said.
"Abu Mazen [Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas] should stop security co-operation, he should stop negotiations. Before the [1994] Oslo Accords the settlement was 9km away, now it is 300 metres. What have we received from the peace process? More settlements."
"There is no compromise," added Salah, "it is us or them."
A spokesperson for Yitzhar did not reply to requests for comment.
Viva, I've also spoken with people who have recalled peaceful relations between Jews and Palestinians. By the way, such co-existance still exists in places. I've walked through the markets in the Old City in Jerusalem with an orthodox rabbi who knows all the Palestinian antiquities merchants by name and was greeted warmly by all of them, and I've seen Jewish and Palestinian doctors and nurses working together as colleagues in Israeli hospitals to treat whomever came through the door.
That said, the history you presented (that before the creation of Israel in 1948 peace reigned and everybody got along) just isn't true. Violence between Palestinians and Jews started decades before 1948. To take just one significant example, the Arab revolt of 1936 against the British mandatory government saw widespread Palestinian violence directed against Jews, including the massacre of about 80 people in the ancient community of Hebron (which essentially led to the abandonment of Hebron by its Jewish community after some 2000+ years of existence there).
For many people it was true. But where would we be without you trying to wrest control of the narrative. The narrative of Palestine before the birth of Zionism does not include YOU. There is a true disconnect between jews who were in Palestine before Zionism and jews like yourself. http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=294067
Again, zionism created the conflict.
I realize that I'm responding to comments made almost two years ago, but I was rereading some of the thread after it got bumped up and felt an impulse to respond. So...
Viva, I had (and have) no desire to wrest control of the narrative. To my mind each side in the conflict has its own valid narrative both of which contain truths and falsehoods (perhaps omissions or distortions would be a better phrasing). You may not agree, but that is my opinion. I don't expect you to accept the truth of my narrative at the expense of your own, but please don't expect from me what you would not accept for yourself. Ideally, to my mind, each side would be able to acknowledge some of the truth contained in the narrative of the other. For example, I am an ardent Zionist and celebrate the founding of Israel for what it meant to my people (a return to our homeland, a refuge, the realization of our dream for self-determination). That doesn't mean that I cannot acknowledge the truth of the Nakba for the Palestinians and feel empathy for their (your) suffering. To my mind, to paraphrase Amos Oz, the conflict is a tragedy precisely because it is a clash between a pair of equally valid national claims. My hope is that eventually you may be able to likewise come to understand some of the truth of my people's narrative. It's that kind of understanding that will be necessary for there to eventually be a real reconciliation.
All that said, I generally find discussions of narrative unproductive. It invariably devolves into angry disputes over historical blame which don't get anyone anywhere. So long as the conflict persists it isn't realistic or helpful for either side to insist that the truth of its narrative be generally accepted. As you said, the conflict is about borders and it should be resolved on that basis alone. Israel and Palestine can exist peacefully side by side without agreeing on how to apportion historical blame. All that can be hashed out as part of a reconciliation process after there are two states and a peace accord.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Also, earlier in the thread you spoke about there being "a Zionist government in power in Israel." What other sort of government is there supposed to be in Israel if not a Zionist one? Zionism is the Jewish aspiration for national self-determination, and the state is the embodiment and fulfillment of that aspiration. The assertion that there could be a government in Israel that is not Zionist is tantamount to rejecting the national right of the Jewish people to self-determination. That may well be your position, but you should understand that Israel will never agree to give up its Zionist character. Expecting that it will would be like me expecting Palestinians to agree that they have no unifying national character, give up any claim to Palestine, and just move to Jordan (I don't expect that, nor does it reflect my beliefs or desires, just so there's no confusion). My point is simply that your approach to Zionism imposes your narrative on my people, and you should be able to understand when we object to the imposition.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Comments
Alleged hate crime in Israel part of troubling trend
http://news.yahoo.com/israel-generation ... 00264.html
An alleged hate crime against Palestinians in West Jerusalem this week, which left one young man unconscious and in the hospital, underscores a troubling reality: that Israeli teens are more militantly anti-Arab than their parents and increasingly more prone to rejecting democratic values.
In recent years, the trend has become apparent in survey after survey, including those conducted by think tanks and commercial pollsters. It’s also borne out anecdotally in both Israel and the West Bank, where attacks by Israeli youngsters against Palestinians appear to be on the rise.
In the latest incident, at least five teens are suspected of punching and kicking a Palestinian nearly to death over the weekend at a crowded public square in Jerusalem, as dozens of other youngsters looked on. The Palestinian, 17-year-old Jamal Julani, collapsed and stopped breathing at one point, but was resuscitated and is now in stable condition.
A police spokesman said the five suspects—three boys and two girls, ages 13 to 19—were in custody and being questioned. “For my part, he can die,” one of the suspects, a 15-year-old, told reporters outside of the courtroom, in reference to Julani. “He’s an Arab.”
The attack was unusual in its brazenness. According to the police spokesman, the teens allegedly roved Jerusalem’s downtown area chanting anti-Arab slogans and looking for victims before setting on Julani and several of his friends. Other violence against Palestinians in recent years has been more clandestine, including mosque burnings and roadside ambushes.
While Israelis across the political spectrum have criticized the attacks, analysts pointed to a rising intolerance of Arabs among youths that appears to have kindled anti-Arab violence.
“It’s definitely a trend,” says Roby Nathanson, an Israeli economist who studies political attitudes among young Israelis.
The institute Nathanson runs, the Macro Center for Political Economics, has conducted three comprehensive surveys since 1998 that show a steady hardening of views.
In the latest study, published last year, 28 percent of Jewish Israelis ages 15 to 18 said the word “hatred” best expressed their feelings toward Arabs. Seventy-two percent said they definitely would not want Arab citizens of Israel living in their neighborhood, and 77 percent said they would be unwilling to invite an Arab to their homes.
Seventy percent opposed the idea of a Palestinian state if it entailed significant Israeli concessions.
The institute’s questions in previous surveys were not identical, but Nathanson they said they were close enough to highlight the shift. In the 1998 study, for example, 92 percent of those polled said it was important for Israel to live at peace with its neighbors.
The more recent study also showed that 57 percent of Israeli teens identified their political leaning as right or moderately right compared with just 13 percent who said it was left or moderately left. When asked whether a few “strong leaders could fix the situation in the country better than all the laws and public discussions,” 60 percent said they either agreed or strongly agreed.
In almost all their responses, the positions articulated by Israeli teens were more hardline than those of their elders.
“What we see is a sharp decline in the youngsters’ acceptance of the Arab minority,” Nathanson told The Daily Beast. “They are intolerant and not willing to accept the fact that Arabs are equal citizens.”
Arab citizens of Israel number about 1.6 million, or some 20 percent of the country’s population. Israel’s Declaration of Independence guarantees them equal rights, though Israeli-Arabs often complain of institutional or social discrimination.
Another 4.2 million Palestinians live in the West Bank and Gaza, under severely restrictive Israeli military rule.
Julani, the victim of the alleged hate crime and a resident of East Jerusalem, represents a third category: Palestinians with residency rights in Israel but usually without citizenship.
Nathanson explained the radicalization of Israeli teens as largely the result of a second Palestinian uprising between 2000 and 2005—a time when bus bombings and suicide attacks at restaurants and cafés were a common occurrence.
The Palestinian attacks have largely subsided since Israel erected a barrier around most of the West Bank.
Other analysts attributed it to the education system, which they said had changed over the past decade under successive right-wing governments.
“I believe that the school system in recent years is lacking very much themes that are related to tolerance, human rights, liberal democracy,” said Daniel Bar-Tal, a professor of political psychology at Tel Aviv University.
“In Europe, there’s a very coordinated and systematic attempt to impart values that we would call humanistic, moral, democratic, in line with human rights. Israel is really behind,” he said.
Dahlia Scheindlin, a public-opinion analyst and columnist for the left-wing online magazine 972, said the political views among teens can also be explained in terms of Israeli demographic trends in which Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Jews—populations that traditionally lean right politically—have the highest birthrates in the country.
“It’s a straight curve from secular to religious—the more religious you get, the more hardline you tend to be,” she said.
Earlier this month, the U.S. State Department designated settler assaults on Palestinians as terrorist attacks for the first time, including them in its list of “terrorist incidents” around the world.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
:corn:
Usamamasan1, do you support this attack on a Palestinian, and others like it?
Your response to the news that Jewish Settler attacks have been classed as acts of terrorism by the U.S was to label Obama an extremist.
Therefore I take it that you support Jewish acts of terrorism, including the above incident? Yes, or no?
Former Israeli soldiers disclose routine mistreatment of Palestinian children
Booklet of testimonies of former Israeli soldiers describes beatings, intimidation and humiliation of children
Harriet Sherwood in Jerusalem
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 26 August 2012
More than 30 former Israeli soldiers have disclosed their experiences of the treatment of Palestinian children during military operations and arrests, pointing to a pattern of abuse.
A booklet of testimonies, published by Breaking the Silence, an organisation of former Israeli soldiers dedicated to publicising the day-to-day actions of the army in the occupied territories, contains descriptions of beatings, intimidation, humiliation, verbal abuse, night-time arrests and injury. Most of the children are suspected of stone-throwing.
The witness statements were gathered to show the "common reality" of acts of violence by soldiers towards Palestinians, including children, in the West Bank, said Yehuda Shaul of Breaking the Silence. "Sadly enough this is the moral consequence of prolonged occupation of the Palestinian people," he said.
One of the ex-soldiers describes serving in Hebron in 2010: "You never know their names, you never talk with them, they always cry, shit in their pants … There are those annoying moments when you're on an arrest mission, and there's no room in the police station, so you just take the kid back with you, blindfold him, put him in a room and wait for the police to come and pick him up in the morning. He sits there like a dog …"
Children frequently soiled themselves, according to the testimonies. "I remember hearing him shitting his pants … I also remember some other time when someone pissed in his pants. I just became so indifferent to it, I couldn't care less. I heard him do it, I witnessed his embarrassment. I also smelled it. But I didn't care," said another.
Another soldier describes an incident in Qalqiliya in 2007 in which a boy was arrested for throwing stones. "At the end of the day, something has to make these kids stop throwing stones on the road because they can kill," he said.
"That specific kid who actually lay there on the ground, begging for his life, was actually nine years old. I think of our kids, nine years old, and a kid handling this kind of situation, I mean, a kid has to beg for his life? A loaded gun is pointed at him and he has to plead for mercy? This is something that scars him for life. But I think if we hadn't entered the village at that point, then stones would be thrown the next day and perhaps the next time someone would be wounded or killed as a result."
Some of the statements illustrate the disjunction between the Israeli military and Palestinians. One soldier said: "You put up a checkpoint out of boredom, sit there for a few hours and then continue on. Once I saw kids passing, and one of the guys, a reservist who spoke Arabic, wanted to ask them what they study. He didn't mean it in any bad way. Then I saw how the kid nearly peed his pants as the guy tried to kid with him, how the two worlds are simply disconnected. The guy was kidding and the kid was scared to death."
Most of the soldiers have given testimonies anonymously. One, who spoke to the Guardian, said that he had been given no guidance during his training for military service on how to deal with minors. He said children were sometimes arrested and interrogated, not because they were suspected of an offence, but to try to elicit information about older family members or neighbours.
He had given a witness statement to Breaking the Silence because: "I thought that people who don't see this on an everyday basis should know what's going on." He said many Israelis were unwilling to acknowledge the reality of the military occupation in the West Bank. "It's very easy [for the Israeli public] to be completely detached. It's a hard thing to handle – stuff like that being done in your name."
According to Gerard Horton, of Defence for Children International – Palestine (DCI), the testimonies reflect and confirm a pattern of behaviour uncovered by his organisation's extensive research into the treatment of Palestinian children by the Israeli security forces.
DCI and other human rights organisations say Palestinian children are routinely arrested at night, handcuffed, blindfolded, mistreated and denied access to their parents or a lawyer.
"For years credible reports of human rights abuses against children living under Israeli military occupation have emerged," he said. "These latest testimonies from young soldiers given the task of enforcing the occupation provide further evidence of its deeply corrosive effects on all. The testimonies lay bare the day-to-day reality of the occupation. These are not isolated incidents or a question of 'a few bad apples'. This is the natural and foreseeable consequence of government policy."
A spokesman for the Israeli Defence Forces said that Breaking the Silence had declined to provide the IDF with testimonies ahead of publication so they could be verified and investigated.
Its true intention was "to generate negative publicity regarding the IDF and its soldiers. The IDF has in the past, and continues to, call upon the organisation to immediately convey complaints or suspicions of improper conduct to the relevant authorities. In line with the IDF's ethical commitments, any such incidents will be thoroughly investigated."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I'm SOOOOO proud to call Israel our ally....... :roll: :oops: :evil: :nono:
I am glad you commented, that allowed me to share what I have learned. I think the Moving Train, when done right, allows us to learn from each other. Your posts have informed me and in the future I look forward to more exchanges. I know you are a good person, and a lot of Americans are good people, but the US media for various reasons have made it pretty hard for the general public to know the past and present realities of the Palestinian situation. A few have been misinformed, and the first reaction is to shut me and other Palestinians out of the conversation/narrative. So when people just listen to what we have to say about our experiences, and not necessarily "take a side" it is a nice surprise. Thanks for being open and listening
I think the only way forward is for the Israelis is to see us and treat us as their equals and become a true democracy, a state for all of its citizens. The Netanyahu government is a hawkish government, and I don’t see anyone better replacing him. I really don’t think any Israeli government would ever end the occupation or its Apartheid policies.Maybe the only way out for the Palestinians is a non-violent uprising.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
That said, the history you presented (that before the creation of Israel in 1948 peace reigned and everybody got along) just isn't true. Violence between Palestinians and Jews started decades before 1948. To take just one significant example, the Arab revolt of 1936 against the British mandatory government saw widespread Palestinian violence directed against Jews, including the massacre of about 80 people in the ancient community of Hebron (which essentially led to the abandonment of Hebron by its Jewish community after some 2000+ years of existence there).
Like I said, Jews and Arab lived together peacefully for about a thousand years before the Zionists moved in at the turn of the 20th century.
and this behaviour is what needs to be pushed as the norm. none of this divisive action that serves only someones political end at the expense of the people. no change ever came from the top... it has always come from the people... and its to themselves the people of palestine/israel need to look.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
http://us2.campaign-archive1.com/?u=618 ... b5a126516d
Hebron is a city of conflict and hate. It is home of one of the first Israelis settlements in the West Bank, the only one right in the heart of a Palestinian city. Kicking, spitting, stone-throwing and abuse are part of the daily routine. Children, women, and the army participate in this war between neighbours. The inhabitants of Hebron and people working there explain their daily struggle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUH9vPg7 ... ults_video
(six part documentary)
For many people it was true. But where would we be without you trying to wrest control of the narrative. The narrative of Palestine before the birth of Zionism does not include YOU. There is a true disconnect between jews who were in Palestine before Zionism and jews like yourself. http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=294067
Again, zionism created the conflict.
Zionism was created by atheists einstein.
Watch your tone, Einstein. I am familiar with the connection between atheism and zionism. My post was directed at religion. And, to say that religion has no role in this conflict is foolish.
No damn connection to be made, Herzl was a flat out atheist. To say that religion has a role in this conflict when the MAIN ideaology that created the conflict was created by Atheists, is perpetuated by Atheists onto Palestinians of ALL faiths is foolish.
I am aware of Herzl. I will say again that I do not subscribe to the idea that this conflict rests on the shoulders of one group. Obviously, judging by your user ID, you do. I don't.
Born Palestinian. I'd prefer you don't judge crap and crack open up a book instead. Start with something on Orientalism and see how absurd your holier than thou "I'm an agnostic" post is.
I've read plenty of Edward Said, thank you. It's kind of funny to tell someone with a PhD in English to open a book and read. That's all I do. And, I'm not talking basic "let's discuss the symbolism of the ducks in Central Park in Catcher in the Rye" shit. I read Said, Fanon, Foucault, Agamben, to name a few who have something to say on this subject and the ideological anchors surrounding these conflicts.
I see no absurdity in stating the fact that I am an agnostic. I have no reservations in stating that I am anti-religion; religion is a fairy tale.
Also, I actually support a Palestinian state and am by no means pro-Israel. And, despite our back and forth, I would be quite happy for you and your people if a solution were to be reached.
Your first post was reductive, flippant and dismissive. The "conflict" is a real and personal thing for me, so when people reduce it to religion and to add to it a way to pat themselves on the back and use it as an opportunity to state their I'm above it attitude because they are an agnostic or atheist is insulting and offensive. And it happens a lot, and it's usually not from people as well read as you, but what can I say, stick to the ducks? I appreciate your support for a Palestinian state. Just want to put it out there that it is not about faith, its about space.
Correct. My apologies. I just feel very strongly about religion on the global scale and the way that many use it to justify their actions.
Didn't mean it to be an aloof, holier than thou statement, nor an insulting and offensive one. I just watched a Neil Degrasse Tyson lecture where he looks at religion as a hindrance to progress. I feel the same way at times.
I am still trying to figure out hwy the ducks go south in the winter.
Cheers to you and a solution to this mess.
p.s. Did you hear Mitt Romney's comments on Palestine? To paraphrase, "Palestine does not want peace."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ ... story.html
Believe in America
WOOT!
The Palestine Papers tell us otherwise.
They have already shown that negotiations brokered by the U.S. for years have been unable to achieve a result. Even when the Palestinians made unprecedented concessions agreeing to allow Israel to annex most of its settlements and made enormous concessions concerning the right of return of Palestinian refugees, Israel was sill not interested in coming to an agreement.
They were offered the deal of a life time and they blew it. Israel is simply not interested in negotiating a solution that could lead to peace anytime soon.
http://www.aljazeera.com/palestinepapers/
Calls to class far-right Jewish settlers as terrorists after Israeli soldiers attacked
Senior ministers Tzipi Livni and Yitzhak Aharonovitch condemn 'price-tag' attacks as author Amos Oz calls militants neo-Nazis
Orlando Crowcroft in Asira al-Qibliya
theguardian.com, Sunday 11 May 2014
Calls are mounting for hardline Jewish settlers to be classified as terrorists after a spate of attacks on Palestinian property in the West Bank and Israel, and threats of violence towards Israeli soldiers.
Last week, the justice minister, Tzipi Livni, and the internal security minister, Yitzhak Aharonovitch, both argued that rightwing extremists should be classified as terrorists following attacks on soldiers at the hardline West Bank settlement of Yitzhar.
And on Friday, the Israeli prize laureate author Amos Oz described the hardline Jewish settlers that carry out so-called "price tag" attacks on Palestinians as neo-Nazis.
"Our neo-Nazi groups enjoy the support of numerous nationalist or even racist legislators, as well as rabbis who give them what is in my view pseudo-religious justification," the 75-year-old said at an event in Tel Aviv.
It is not the first time that politicians and public figures in Israel have called for the branding of rightwing settlers as terrorists, but recent events have coalesced into something of a perfect storm.
A spate of vandalism in Jerusalem and Galilee has seen rightwing groups target Christians ahead of the visit of Pope Francis, including a graffiti attack on the Vatican building where he is due to stay later this month.
Meanwhile, in the hardline settlement of Yitzhar, police arrested a woman for inciting violence towards the IDF, just weeks after Israeli soldiers were attacked when they attempted to dismantle a settler outpost.
It also coincides with the failure of the recent round of peace talks, with senior politicians and peace-talks negotiators in the US, Israel and Palestine attributing the breakdown to settlement activity, among other factors.
But in the hillside West Bank village of Asira al-Qibliya, which is just 300 metres from Yitzhar, Palestinian villagers see the recent backlash as a case of too little, too late.
"It is only words. We don't want words, we want deeds," said Bassem Salah, 50, a construction worker.
His neighbour Ibrahim Makhlouf, 52, a teacher, also dismissed the comments of Israeli politicians, given the support that the Israeli state provides to settlements in the West Bank.
"They say it is a minority, but it is a minority supported by both the government and the army – they receive free water, free electricity, the government spend millions of dollars on them. Who are they trying to kid?" said Makhlouf.
His two-storey home is the closest in the village to Yitzhar, and last year a French NGO installed a metal grate across one side of the building after his windows were broken regularly by stone-throwing radical Zionists.
He says that the situation has improved since 2012, when villagers were given cameras to document the attacks. In the past, settlers would tell the IDF that they were provoked, he said, but faced with video evidence the soldiers have been forced to act.
But the father-of-four still believes that settlements such as Yitzhar remain the biggest barrier to peace between Israel and Palestine.
"As long as there is a settlement here I don't see a future. This settlement needs to be evacuated. We don't want Palestine from the river to the sea, we just want them to leave our home town," he said.
"Abu Mazen [Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas] should stop security co-operation, he should stop negotiations. Before the [1994] Oslo Accords the settlement was 9km away, now it is 300 metres. What have we received from the peace process? More settlements."
"There is no compromise," added Salah, "it is us or them."
A spokesperson for Yitzhar did not reply to requests for comment.
Again, zionism created the conflict.
I realize that I'm responding to comments made almost two years ago, but I was rereading some of the thread after it got bumped up and felt an impulse to respond. So...
Viva, I had (and have) no desire to wrest control of the narrative. To my mind each side in the conflict has its own valid narrative both of which contain truths and falsehoods (perhaps omissions or distortions would be a better phrasing). You may not agree, but that is my opinion. I don't expect you to accept the truth of my narrative at the expense of your own, but please don't expect from me what you would not accept for yourself. Ideally, to my mind, each side would be able to acknowledge some of the truth contained in the narrative of the other. For example, I am an ardent Zionist and celebrate the founding of Israel for what it meant to my people (a return to our homeland, a refuge, the realization of our dream for self-determination). That doesn't mean that I cannot acknowledge the truth of the Nakba for the Palestinians and feel empathy for their (your) suffering. To my mind, to paraphrase Amos Oz, the conflict is a tragedy precisely because it is a clash between a pair of equally valid national claims. My hope is that eventually you may be able to likewise come to understand some of the truth of my people's narrative. It's that kind of understanding that will be necessary for there to eventually be a real reconciliation.
All that said, I generally find discussions of narrative unproductive. It invariably devolves into angry disputes over historical blame which don't get anyone anywhere. So long as the conflict persists it isn't realistic or helpful for either side to insist that the truth of its narrative be generally accepted. As you said, the conflict is about borders and it should be resolved on that basis alone. Israel and Palestine can exist peacefully side by side without agreeing on how to apportion historical blame. All that can be hashed out as part of a reconciliation process after there are two states and a peace accord.