Whats going wrong with the world? More shootings

comebackgirl

pandora wrote:

comebackgirl wrote:

pandora wrote:

Yes I know the definitions...

Yes I know about the fact that it is not a given about Holmes... been through this

and not only are the mentally ill much more likely to be a victim than
a perp that is true for us all

im glad we're on the same page about all that so moving forward we can use those terms accurately and not speak of speculation as fact or reinforce destructive stigmas.

actually there is much speculation here ...
even about people that no one really knows :fp: something you have done.

To some degree speculation can be used to form opinion something you have done
so just think of it that way... it's my opinion

so I will speculate and use terms I see fit ...

at least a few here are actually attacking the why to all the shootings in a logical way...
by addressing the lack of easy and affordable mental health care
instead of assuming taking away guns will fix anything.
When we remove the real threat... the person from the equation
is when violent acts and crime will cease.

Ok... So maybe we're not on the same page after all

ComeToTX

pandora wrote:

comebackgirl wrote:

pandora wrote:

Yes I know the definitions...

Yes I know about the fact that it is not a given about Holmes... been through this

and not only are the mentally ill much more likely to be a victim than
a perp that is true for us all

im glad we're on the same page about all that so moving forward we can use those terms accurately and not speak of speculation as fact or reinforce destructive stigmas.

actually there is much speculation here ...
even about people that no one really knows :fp: something you have done.

To some degree speculation can be used to form opinion something you have done
so just think of it that way... it's my opinion

so I will speculate and use terms I see fit ...

at least a few here are actually attacking the why to all the shootings in a logical way...
by addressing the lack of easy and affordable mental health care
instead of assuming taking away guns will fix anything.
When we remove the real threat... the person from the equation
is when violent acts and crime will cease.

mental health is the "why" to all shootings? that's 100% false.

comebackgirl

ComeToTX wrote:

pandora wrote:

actually there is much speculation here ...
even about people that no one really knows :fp: something you have done.

To some degree speculation can be used to form opinion something you have done
so just think of it that way... it's my opinion

so I will speculate and use terms I see fit ...

at least a few here are actually attacking the why to all the shootings in a logical way...
by addressing the lack of easy and affordable mental health care
instead of assuming taking away guns will fix anything.
When we remove the real threat... the person from the equation
is when violent acts and crime will cease.

mental health is the "why" to all shootings? that's 100% false.

Agreed. That's oversimplifying. It's certainly a component in some shootings and some crime that deserves more exploration and intervention. However even when mental illness is present, there are many factors that may be even more important to consider. A large portion of crime doesn't involve mental illness at all

Hugh Freaking Dillon

pandora wrote:

When we remove the real threat... the person from the equation
is when violent acts and crime will cease.

so if I see two people, one with a gun, and one without a gun, they are the same threat level to you? HAHAHA.

pandora

ComeToTX wrote:

mental health is the "why" to all shootings? that's 100% false.

I think in most cases mental illness is... domestic violence
children with depression problems medicating with illegal drugs,
delusion thought disorders,
adults who crack under pressure trying to pay back society or whomever.


all and 100% rarely can be used in life though

JonnyPistachio

What the hell is going on here?
Two deputies killed, two wounded in Louisiana shooting:

http://us.cnn.com/2012/08/16/justice/lo ... ?hpt=hp_t1

comebackgirl

pandora wrote:

ComeToTX wrote:

mental health is the "why" to all shootings? that's 100% false.

I think in most cases mental illness is... domestic violence
children with depression problems medicating with illegal drugs,
delusion thought disorders,
adults who crack under pressure trying to pay back society or whomever.


all and 100% rarely can be used in life though

Domestic violence often does not involve mental illness and shouldn't be used as an example of such. Domestic violence is about power and control. Substance abuse is not mental illness, but when it exists in combination with mental illness, heightens the risk of violence. Wanting revenge against society does not equate to mental illness either, but could be indicative of a personality disorder.

A few pertinent links below. Two I posted at the start of this thread, so in case anyone is interested I'll post them again as well.

http://boingboing.net/2012/07/26/forens ... s-mas.html
http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07 ... s-say?lite
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1525086/

pandora

comebackgirl wrote:

ComeToTX wrote:

pandora wrote:

actually there is much speculation here ...
even about people that no one really knows :fp: something you have done.

To some degree speculation can be used to form opinion something you have done
so just think of it that way... it's my opinion

so I will speculate and use terms I see fit ...

at least a few here are actually attacking the why to all the shootings in a logical way...
by addressing the lack of easy and affordable mental health care
instead of assuming taking away guns will fix anything.
When we remove the real threat... the person from the equation
is when violent acts and crime will cease.

mental health is the "why" to all shootings? that's 100% false.

Agreed. That's oversimplifying. It's certainly a component in some shootings and some crime that deserves more exploration and intervention. However even when mental illness is present, there are many factors that may be even more important to consider. A large portion of crime doesn't involve mental illness at all

What was meant by all was the very recent that has made the news as the mass shootings,
the ones we have been discussing. I guess I should have added those words.

I think we can trace back mental illness issues to the examples I have made prior
and if these were addressed properly in our society with comprehensive care
we wouldn't be discussing guns at all.

ComeToTX

pandora wrote:

ComeToTX wrote:

mental health is the "why" to all shootings? that's 100% false.

I think in most cases mental illness is... domestic violence
children with depression problems medicating with illegal drugs,
delusion thought disorders,
adults who crack under pressure trying to pay back society or whomever.


all and 100% rarely can be used in life though

I'll stick by my figure of being 100% false.

comebackgirl

pandora wrote:

comebackgirl wrote:

ComeToTX wrote:

mental health is the "why" to all shootings? that's 100% false.

Agreed. That's oversimplifying. It's certainly a component in some shootings and some crime that deserves more exploration and intervention. However even when mental illness is present, there are many factors that may be even more important to consider. A large portion of crime doesn't involve mental illness at all

What was meant by all was the very recent that has made the news as the mass shootings,
the ones we have been discussing. I guess I should have added those words.

I think we can trace back mental illness issues to the examples I have made prior
and if these were addressed properly in our society with comprehensive care
we wouldn't be discussing guns at all.

We've discussed a lot of shootings on these threads, so I think it makes sense to discuss mental health in the context of the phenomenon of mass killings. I posted some relevant links above

Hugh Freaking Dillon

pandora wrote:

I think we can trace back mental illness issues to the examples I have made prior
and if these were addressed properly in our society with comprehensive care
we wouldn't be discussing guns at all.

I'll ask this again. How do you plan to go about forcing people to get the mental health help they need? Do you know how low the percentage is of people with mental issues actually seek treatment. It is incredibly low. Why? because of the stigma. which is actually being perpetuated by you, saying nonsense like people with mental illness are responsible for most if not all shooting sprees. How can you claim this? it's irresponsible to say so and borderline an ignorant statement that further stigmatizes the mentally ill.

JonnyPistachio

pandora wrote:

I think we can trace back mental illness issues to the examples I have made prior
and if these were addressed properly in our society with comprehensive care
we wouldn't be discussing guns at all.

This is simply untrue.
The USA has a blatant gun problem with laughable laws. Even gun advocates in this very thread have said that. We do acknowledge mental illness contributes to this sometimes, but our laws and culture are still a problem.

hedonist

JonnyPistachio wrote:

What the hell is going on here?
Two deputies killed, two wounded in Louisiana shooting:

http://us.cnn.com/2012/08/16/justice/lo ... ?hpt=hp_t1

Only 28 and 34 years old.

What the fuck is this world...

pandora

comebackgirl wrote:

pandora wrote:

ComeToTX wrote:

mental health is the "why" to all shootings? that's 100% false.

I think in most cases mental illness is... domestic violence
children with depression problems medicating with illegal drugs,
delusion thought disorders,
adults who crack under pressure trying to pay back society or whomever.


all and 100% rarely can be used in life though

Domestic violence often does not involve mental illness and shouldn't be used as an example of such. Domestic violence is about power and control. Substance abuse is not mental illness, but when it exists in combination with mental illness, heightens the risk of violence. Wanting revenge against society does not equate to mental illness either, but could be indicative of a personality disorder.

A few pertinent links below. Two I posted at the start of this thread, so in case anyone is interested I'll post them again as well.

http://boingboing.net/2012/07/26/forens ... s-mas.html
http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07 ... s-say?lite
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1525086/

I rest my case

Power and control is this normal behavior?
Do people seek help for violence against their loved ones?

Depression leads to self medicating with substances.

Mental illness effects a huge part of our population
and these are the people who have sought help and been diagnosed,
lets at least double that for the people
who have no insurance, no means to seek help,
until after violence towards themselves or others.

This is the why to the shootings, to the crime, to the violence
so much so it should addressed to stop gun violence.

redrock

comebackgirl wrote:

Agreed. That's oversimplifying. It's certainly a component in some shootings and some crime that deserves more exploration and intervention. However even when mental illness is present, there are many factors that may be even more important to consider. A large portion of crime doesn't involve mental illness at all

I find all this thing about the link between mental illness and crime (whether perpetrator or victim) interesting. From a medical point of view but also from the judicial and media point of view. Maybe this could be a separate thread? A couple of links ref violent crime and mental health. Sure, some will say that one may be a study/publication from New Zealand and the other two a couple of articles from the BBC but they just seem to corroborate what CBG is trying to say (and I guess she has seen many, many studies as part of her job/expertise area). These were the first ones to be listed, thus chosen as I don't have much time to do any reading right now. One can always dig further by checking out the sources referenced in the articles.

Just a few quotes from these:

"This means that 5.2% of all violent crimes over the period were committed by people with severe mental illness." Note: violent crime includes, but is not limited to gun crime.

"Having a severe mental health problem does not make a person violent."

"People with conditions like schizophrenia are in fact more likely to be the victims of violence than others in the population."

"Mentally ill patients are six times more likely to be murdered than the general population, researchers have found."

"Serious mental illness has only a small influence on murder rates"

"They also found that alcohol and drug problems and personality disorder were
conditions associated with greater risk of violent offending than mental illness"

"Alcohol use, for example, was four times as likely as mental illness to be a precipitating factor in
homicide with a gun."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5216836.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1721156.stm

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=ca ... 5Y9OSKUS7Q

pandora

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

pandora wrote:

I think we can trace back mental illness issues to the examples I have made prior
and if these were addressed properly in our society with comprehensive care
we wouldn't be discussing guns at all.

I'll ask this again. How do you plan to go about forcing people to get the mental health help they need? Do you know how low the percentage is of people with mental issues actually seek treatment. It is incredibly low. Why? because of the stigma. which is actually being perpetuated by you, saying nonsense like people with mental illness are responsible for most if not all shooting sprees. How can you claim this? it's irresponsible to say so and borderline an ignorant statement that further stigmatizes the mentally ill.

Are you saying those who are mentally ill do not want treatment?
Is that not a terrible stigma?
Are you saying when it is within their power to seek treatment they don't?

This is a terrible thing to say about people who would very much like to get help
for themselves but at 200 dollar an hour and the cost of prescription drugs
it is just not going to happen.
And the families of those who need help but can't find or afford it.

I think your view is ignorant of the fact that many recognize and want help
but it is not available.

Your idea of mental illness being something to be ashamed of is so 1990's.
Awareness has taken us past that, some help is is being offered even to school age children
to turn that stigma even more as we head into the future. But it matters not if
mental health care is not going to be readily available in our society for all.

comebackgirl

pandora wrote:

comebackgirl wrote:

I rest my case

Power and control is this normal behavior?
Do people seek help for violence against their loved ones?

Depression leads to self medicating with substances.

Mental illness effects a huge part of our population
and these are the people who have sought help and been diagnosed,
lets at least double that for the people
who have no insurance, no means to seek help,
until after violence towards themselves or others.

This is the why to the shootings, to the crime, to the violence
so much so it should addressed to stop gun violence.

Power and control is very unhealthy behavior. It is not mental illness, however. People seek anger management for domestic violence, not psychiatric treatment unless there is a co-occuring mental illness. The myth that mental illness causes domestic violence is one that should not be perpetuated. Advocacy programs list this as a major myth.

Some people self-medicate when they are depressed. They may have a co-occuring substance abuse issue and we consider them to be dually diagnosed (two separate diagnoses). Many substance abuse programs will not accept people with a co-occuring mental illness because they require different treatment.

Many people in our society do live with mental illness that deserves proper diagnosis and treatment. I agree. Most of these people will never be violent.

You can treat mental illness and gun violence will still exist. They are separate issues that at times overlap and both deserve to be addressed.

pandora

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

pandora wrote:

When we remove the real threat... the person from the equation
is when violent acts and crime will cease.

so if I see two people, one with a gun, and one without a gun, they are the same threat level to you? HAHAHA.

wow
Do you just love to pull a sentence out from an entire thought and then
pretend to be dumb to what the point was?

I guess that's one way to debate :fp:

too funny indeed

comebackgirl

redrock wrote:

comebackgirl wrote:

Agreed. That's oversimplifying. It's certainly a component in some shootings and some crime that deserves more exploration and intervention. However even when mental illness is present, there are many factors that may be even more important to consider. A large portion of crime doesn't involve mental illness at all

I find all this thing about the link between mental illness and crime (whether perpetrator or victim) interesting. From a medical point of view but also from the judicial and media point of view. Maybe this could be a separate thread? A couple of links ref violent crime and mental health. Sure, some will say that one may be a study/publication from New Zealand and the other two a couple of articles from the BBC but they just seem to corroborate what CBG is trying to say (and I guess she has seen many, many studies as part of her job/expertise area). These were the first ones to be listed, thus chosen as I don't have much time to do any reading right now. One can always dig further by checking out the sources referenced in the articles.

Just a few quotes from these:

"This means that 5.2% of all violent crimes over the period were committed by people with severe mental illness." Note: violent crime includes, but is not limited to gun crime.

"Having a severe mental health problem does not make a person violent."

"People with conditions like schizophrenia are in fact more likely to be the victims of violence than others in the population."

"Mentally ill patients are six times more likely to be murdered than the general population, researchers have found."

"Serious mental illness has only a small influence on murder rates"

"They also found that alcohol and drug problems and personality disorder were
conditions associated with greater risk of violent offending than mental illness"

"Alcohol use, for example, was four times as likely as mental illness to be a precipitating factor in
homicide with a gun."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5216836.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1721156.stm

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=ca ... 5Y9OSKUS7Q

Thank you so much for listing these and summarizing some of the main points. Having accurate information is so important. I am very interested in this topic and agree that it is important to discuss in and of itself!

comebackgirl

pandora wrote:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

pandora wrote:

I think we can trace back mental illness issues to the examples I have made prior
and if these were addressed properly in our society with comprehensive care
we wouldn't be discussing guns at all.

I'll ask this again. How do you plan to go about forcing people to get the mental health help they need? Do you know how low the percentage is of people with mental issues actually seek treatment. It is incredibly low. Why? because of the stigma. which is actually being perpetuated by you, saying nonsense like people with mental illness are responsible for most if not all shooting sprees. How can you claim this? it's irresponsible to say so and borderline an ignorant statement that further stigmatizes the mentally ill.

Are you saying those who are mentally ill do not want treatment?
Is that not a terrible stigma?
Are you saying when it is within their power to seek treatment they don't?

This is a terrible thing to say about people who would very much like to get help
for themselves but at 200 dollar an hour and the cost of prescription drugs
it is just not going to happen.
And the families of those who need help but can't find or afford it.

I think your view is ignorant of the fact that many recognize and want help
but it is not available.

Your idea of mental illness being something to be ashamed of is so 1990's.
Awareness has taken us past that, some help is is being offered even to school age children
to turn that stigma even more as we head into the future. But it matters not if
mental health care is not going to be readily available in our society for all.

I agree that there needs to be better access to mental health care. Most counties have a community mental health center that accepts Medicaid and provides services on a sliding scale, but they are overburdened and have long waiting lists. Clients can usually only see therapists once a month and psychiatrists once every 3 months. They often do not pay well, so clinicians with advanced degrees and licensure and expensive continuing education requirements and high student loans often cannot afford to work there. Social services funding is often drastically cut and so are clinical positions.

What's the solution? How do we make it more accessible given those limitations.