i think what makes this case and issue so complex, and it is complex, is that its as I said before, lance isnt some evil guy.
firstly ... you have bought into the myth/brand of lance armstrong and your unwillingness to read the accusations against him makes your judgement of this piss poor ...
secondly ... what constitutes evil? ... does threatening someone's life an evil act? ... what about suing all kinds of people who make an honest living with your high priced lawyers? ... what about making enormous amounts of money on the backs of a charity? ... what about influencing the judicial system with political connections? ... what about taking people's dreams of competing in the highest level of their sport and shattering them? ...
again - for the whatever time ... lance cheating is almost irrelevant in this whole affair ... do the reading man - you seem to care enough about this whole thing ... why not fill your thoughts with more than just the PR campaign that lance and his lawyers have bought?
edit: what about bribing people? ... what about offering money so people will tell lies of honest people?
Not that it matters...because he probably was don racing anyways...so why is he being banned for life? why aren't all cheaters banned for life?
because he never stopped doping ... not even during his comeback years ... and his level of doping was beyond your average doper ... and because he pressured people to dope for his interests ... and because he made sure those who didn't dope and were outspoken of it - were ostracized ... and more than likely - his unwillingness to co-operate ...
it should be noted that ALL the cyclists who gave evidence in the USADA report all stopped doping well before the inquiry except maybe for Levi (not sure about him) ... but the majority of them stopped doping by 2006 ...
Not that it matters...because he probably was don racing anyways...so why is he being banned for life? why aren't all cheaters banned for life?
because he never stopped doping ... not even during his comeback years ... and his level of doping was beyond your average doper ... and because he pressured people to dope for his interests ... and because he made sure those who didn't dope and were outspoken of it - were ostracized ... and more than likely - his unwillingness to co-operate ...
it should be noted that ALL the cyclists who gave evidence in the USADA report all stopped doping well before the inquiry except maybe for Levi (not sure about him) ... but the majority of them stopped doping by 2006 ...
it's a huge scandal.. he had millions believing he was the best sportsmen of all time. it's a shame.
I'm just flying around the other side of the world to say I love you
Sha la la la i'm in love with a jersey girl
I love you forever and forever
Adel 03 Melb 1 03 LA 2 06 Santa Barbara 06 Gorge 1 06 Gorge 2 06 Adel 1 06 Adel 2 06 Camden 1 08 Camden 2 08 Washington DC 08 Hartford 08
Not that it matters...because he probably was don racing anyways...so why is he being banned for life? why aren't all cheaters banned for life?
because he never stopped doping ... not even during his comeback years ... and his level of doping was beyond your average doper ... and because he pressured people to dope for his interests ... and because he made sure those who didn't dope and were outspoken of it - were ostracized ... and more than likely - his unwillingness to co-operate ...
it should be noted that ALL the cyclists who gave evidence in the USADA report all stopped doping well before the inquiry except maybe for Levi (not sure about him) ... but the majority of them stopped doping by 2006 ...
you know if you really want doping to stop all cheaters need to be banned for life...imo.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Not that it matters...because he probably was don racing anyways...so why is he being banned for life? why aren't all cheaters banned for life?
one of my main sticking points. if we are against all cheaters, lets treat them ALL this way, not just lance. Clemons, Petit, Arod, Giambi and numerous others admitted cheating and not only returned to play and werent severely punished, but most if not all of them, will be cheered on, and people will pay good money to see them play in 2013. Not only that, their records, and stats are existant, and remain standing. The most recent example, Cabrera, was suspended, but is obviously coming back next season, and again his records and stats remain standing and "true". Manny Ramirez was caught with multiple steroids, multiple times, was suspended, and even retired over it, but returned and was reinstated, albeit in a minor league capacity. Again, his records and stats have not been erased from the books. Palmiero served a suspension of 10 days, and probably was drummed out of the MLB because of his steroid use, but his records, including 500 plus homers still stands. He lied in front of congress, which is something few if any of the other dopers ever did.
So all this is to point out there is a double standard. Steroid use treatment is not equal across the board. Im for rooting out cheaters in all sports. But lets actually DO that.
Lance's actions are no different from Manny, or Clemons. The difference is, neither is banned for life, nor are their records and stats wiped away. Clemons 4,000 plus strikeouts and 7 Cy Young awards are still recognized. Why not ban him for life and take away those awards?
Not that it matters...because he probably was don racing anyways...so why is he being banned for life? why aren't all cheaters banned for life?
one of my main sticking points. if we are against all cheaters, lets treat them ALL this way, not just lance. Clemons, Petit, Arod, Giambi and numerous others admitted cheating and not only returned to play and werent severely punished, but most if not all of them, will be cheered on, and people will pay good money to see them play in 2013. Not only that, their records, and stats are existant, and remain standing. The most recent example, Cabrera, was suspended, but is obviously coming back next season, and again his records and stats remain standing and "true". Manny Ramirez was caught with multiple steroids, multiple times, was suspended, and even retired over it, but returned and was reinstated, albeit in a minor league capacity. Again, his records and stats have not been erased from the books. Palmiero served a suspension of 10 days, and probably was drummed out of the MLB because of his steroid use, but his records, including 500 plus homers still stands. He lied in front of congress, which is something few if any of the other dopers ever did.
So all this is to point out there is a double standard. Steroid use treatment is not equal across the board. Im for rooting out cheaters in all sports. But lets actually DO that.
Lance's actions are no different from Manny, or Clemons. The difference is, neither is banned for life, nor are their records and stats wiped away. Clemons 4,000 plus strikeouts and 7 Cy Young awards are still recognized. Why not ban him for life and take away those awards?
Different sports. I agree all listed are cheaters, and don't cheer for any of them.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
also, i dont think Lance is a "bigger gun' or bigger deal than the people I just mentioned. Certainly Clemons is a hall of fame pitcher and viewed as one of the best pitchers to ever play the game. Yet, he isnt banned nor are his records scrubbed from the stat sheets. and manny's stats are nothing to sneeze at either, so why are his achievements viewed as legitimate, and lance's as not legitimate?
Not that it matters...because he probably was don racing anyways...so why is he being banned for life? why aren't all cheaters banned for life?
one of my main sticking points. if we are against all cheaters, lets treat them ALL this way, not just lance. Clemons, Petit, Arod, Giambi and numerous others admitted cheating and not only returned to play and werent severely punished, but most if not all of them, will be cheered on, and people will pay good money to see them play in 2013. Not only that, their records, and stats are existant, and remain standing. The most recent example, Cabrera, was suspended, but is obviously coming back next season, and again his records and stats remain standing and "true". Manny Ramirez was caught with multiple steroids, multiple times, was suspended, and even retired over it, but returned and was reinstated, albeit in a minor league capacity. Again, his records and stats have not been erased from the books. Palmiero served a suspension of 10 days, and probably was drummed out of the MLB because of his steroid use, but his records, including 500 plus homers still stands. He lied in front of congress, which is something few if any of the other dopers ever did.
So all this is to point out there is a double standard. Steroid use treatment is not equal across the board. Im for rooting out cheaters in all sports. But lets actually DO that.
Lance's actions are no different from Manny, or Clemons. The difference is, neither is banned for life, nor are their records and stats wiped away. Clemons 4,000 plus strikeouts and 7 Cy Young awards are still recognized. Why not ban him for life and take away those awards?
Different sports. I agree all listed are cheaters, and don't cheer for any of them.
I dont think the reason that Lance is being punished, and that Clemons runs free is that its a different sport. The people, CEO's, commisioners, head directors of the sport, the people who make decisions about the sport will never be prosecuted, punished, nor fined and imprisoned. They are criminals just as much as the athletes. MLB has done nothing to address their tacit approval of steroid use over the years. And neither has cycling. And neither has cycling. Lance being banned for life and stripping of his titles is unprecedented, because many other cyclists during the "Lance era" also won Tours and none have been banned for life.
Thats the trouble I have with this case. It singles out one man, among a sport that was filled with cheaters. No one will be prosecuted and gone after with the same zeal as they are going after Lance. How did Basso and Ulrich elude detection for those years? Im sure they paid people off and stored blood in refrigerators just like Lance's team did. They all did this. They all lied.
Investigations like this are always so surface. He's clearly being made an example of. Because the Tour and cycling knows the public is tired of cheating in sports. But a real investigation wont be done.
I feel like cycling right now and the public is patting themselves on the back, or getting ready to, because they feel like we've actually done something about cheating in sports. We havent. This does nothing to convince people not to dope. It doesnt clean out the sports. It doesnt get rid of that mentality.
The view of people on this issue is always so surface. How do you get rid of cheating and doping in sports? Throwing the book at Lance wont stop people from cheating.
Thats the trouble I have with this case. It singles out one man, among a sport that was filled with cheaters.
i think the REAL trouble is that you are a supporter of Lance who refuses to accept who he really is
again, im not a person who supports burning people at the stake because they make mistakes. Im fully capable as a functioning adult, of comdemning what he did and admiring him for his battle against cancer and bringing cancer awareness to the front page. I dont just do this with lance, I treat all people like this. Ive never been that guy who labels someone a pariah and believes a person is branded something forever and ever.
Human beings are flawed. Punishment and fining is acceptable. Treating him like a war criminal or murderer is not. Lance isnt the problem. If you think treating him as an example, is constructive or is going to do anything at all to root out doping in sports, you my friend are sorely and severely mistaken.
i think what makes this case and issue so complex, and it is complex, is that its as I said before, lance isnt some evil guy.
firstly ... you have bought into the myth/brand of lance armstrong and your unwillingness to read the accusations against him makes your judgement of this piss poor ...
secondly ... what constitutes evil? ... does threatening someone's life an evil act? ... what about suing all kinds of people who make an honest living with your high priced lawyers? ... what about making enormous amounts of money on the backs of a charity? ... what about influencing the judicial system with political connections? ... what about taking people's dreams of competing in the highest level of their sport and shattering them? ...
again - for the whatever time ... lance cheating is almost irrelevant in this whole affair ... do the reading man - you seem to care enough about this whole thing ... why not fill your thoughts with more than just the PR campaign that lance and his lawyers have bought?
edit: what about bribing people? ... what about offering money so people will tell lies of honest people?
armstrong is the biggest fraud in the history of sports.
maybe he could have pulled it off if he wasn't such a prick about it.
in the end, he left a trail that was too big to cover up.
thing is ... there are sooo many people now who are relying on lance to keep quiet ...
if he ever decided to come clean - a lot of heads will roll ... he's got so much dirt on so many people - it's no wonder he could have hid this so long ...
armstrong is the biggest fraud in the history of sports.
correction ...
Bettman is an asshole, but doesn't really hide that fact...
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
Comments
firstly ... you have bought into the myth/brand of lance armstrong and your unwillingness to read the accusations against him makes your judgement of this piss poor ...
secondly ... what constitutes evil? ... does threatening someone's life an evil act? ... what about suing all kinds of people who make an honest living with your high priced lawyers? ... what about making enormous amounts of money on the backs of a charity? ... what about influencing the judicial system with political connections? ... what about taking people's dreams of competing in the highest level of their sport and shattering them? ...
again - for the whatever time ... lance cheating is almost irrelevant in this whole affair ... do the reading man - you seem to care enough about this whole thing ... why not fill your thoughts with more than just the PR campaign that lance and his lawyers have bought?
edit: what about bribing people? ... what about offering money so people will tell lies of honest people?
Sha la la la i'm in love with a jersey girl
I love you forever and forever
Adel 03 Melb 1 03 LA 2 06 Santa Barbara 06 Gorge 1 06 Gorge 2 06 Adel 1 06 Adel 2 06 Camden 1 08 Camden 2 08 Washington DC 08 Hartford 08
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I'm not 100% sure why.. maybe because the amount of event's he won and HUGE events on the back of doping..
Sha la la la i'm in love with a jersey girl
I love you forever and forever
Adel 03 Melb 1 03 LA 2 06 Santa Barbara 06 Gorge 1 06 Gorge 2 06 Adel 1 06 Adel 2 06 Camden 1 08 Camden 2 08 Washington DC 08 Hartford 08
because he never stopped doping ... not even during his comeback years ... and his level of doping was beyond your average doper ... and because he pressured people to dope for his interests ... and because he made sure those who didn't dope and were outspoken of it - were ostracized ... and more than likely - his unwillingness to co-operate ...
it should be noted that ALL the cyclists who gave evidence in the USADA report all stopped doping well before the inquiry except maybe for Levi (not sure about him) ... but the majority of them stopped doping by 2006 ...
it's a huge scandal.. he had millions believing he was the best sportsmen of all time. it's a shame.
Sha la la la i'm in love with a jersey girl
I love you forever and forever
Adel 03 Melb 1 03 LA 2 06 Santa Barbara 06 Gorge 1 06 Gorge 2 06 Adel 1 06 Adel 2 06 Camden 1 08 Camden 2 08 Washington DC 08 Hartford 08
you know if you really want doping to stop all cheaters need to be banned for life...imo.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
one of my main sticking points. if we are against all cheaters, lets treat them ALL this way, not just lance. Clemons, Petit, Arod, Giambi and numerous others admitted cheating and not only returned to play and werent severely punished, but most if not all of them, will be cheered on, and people will pay good money to see them play in 2013. Not only that, their records, and stats are existant, and remain standing. The most recent example, Cabrera, was suspended, but is obviously coming back next season, and again his records and stats remain standing and "true". Manny Ramirez was caught with multiple steroids, multiple times, was suspended, and even retired over it, but returned and was reinstated, albeit in a minor league capacity. Again, his records and stats have not been erased from the books. Palmiero served a suspension of 10 days, and probably was drummed out of the MLB because of his steroid use, but his records, including 500 plus homers still stands. He lied in front of congress, which is something few if any of the other dopers ever did.
So all this is to point out there is a double standard. Steroid use treatment is not equal across the board. Im for rooting out cheaters in all sports. But lets actually DO that.
Lance's actions are no different from Manny, or Clemons. The difference is, neither is banned for life, nor are their records and stats wiped away. Clemons 4,000 plus strikeouts and 7 Cy Young awards are still recognized. Why not ban him for life and take away those awards?
I dont think the reason that Lance is being punished, and that Clemons runs free is that its a different sport. The people, CEO's, commisioners, head directors of the sport, the people who make decisions about the sport will never be prosecuted, punished, nor fined and imprisoned. They are criminals just as much as the athletes. MLB has done nothing to address their tacit approval of steroid use over the years. And neither has cycling. And neither has cycling. Lance being banned for life and stripping of his titles is unprecedented, because many other cyclists during the "Lance era" also won Tours and none have been banned for life.
Thats the trouble I have with this case. It singles out one man, among a sport that was filled with cheaters. No one will be prosecuted and gone after with the same zeal as they are going after Lance. How did Basso and Ulrich elude detection for those years? Im sure they paid people off and stored blood in refrigerators just like Lance's team did. They all did this. They all lied.
Investigations like this are always so surface. He's clearly being made an example of. Because the Tour and cycling knows the public is tired of cheating in sports. But a real investigation wont be done.
I feel like cycling right now and the public is patting themselves on the back, or getting ready to, because they feel like we've actually done something about cheating in sports. We havent. This does nothing to convince people not to dope. It doesnt clean out the sports. It doesnt get rid of that mentality.
The view of people on this issue is always so surface. How do you get rid of cheating and doping in sports? Throwing the book at Lance wont stop people from cheating.
i think the REAL trouble is that you are a supporter of Lance who refuses to accept who he really is
maybe ... it may be harsh but you could be right ... i dunno
again, im not a person who supports burning people at the stake because they make mistakes. Im fully capable as a functioning adult, of comdemning what he did and admiring him for his battle against cancer and bringing cancer awareness to the front page. I dont just do this with lance, I treat all people like this. Ive never been that guy who labels someone a pariah and believes a person is branded something forever and ever.
Human beings are flawed. Punishment and fining is acceptable. Treating him like a war criminal or murderer is not. Lance isnt the problem. If you think treating him as an example, is constructive or is going to do anything at all to root out doping in sports, you my friend are sorely and severely mistaken.
care to answer this?
lance is/was a big part of the problem
maybe he could have pulled it off if he wasn't such a prick about it.
in the end, he left a trail that was too big to cover up.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
thing is ... there are sooo many people now who are relying on lance to keep quiet ...
if he ever decided to come clean - a lot of heads will roll ... he's got so much dirt on so many people - it's no wonder he could have hid this so long ...
and some who have given donations asking for a return of money really :?
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014