Oh man do I ever remember that, I called it *THe Look*. I hope one day to climb Alpe D'Huez and climb the 21 switchbacks, 8% incline in record time.
Peace
there are rumours that next year's tour (100th anniversary) will actually end on alpe d'huez! ... that would be sooo awesome ...
I can see that something unusual and different is surely needed to bring the TDF into and through a whole new era of cycling.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
The Tour de France will have no official winners for the seven races from 1999-2005 if Lance Armstrong is stripped of his victories by the UCI for doping.
Tour director Christian Prudhomme told The Associated Press on Friday that the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency's report on Armstrong is "damning" and called into question "a system and an era."
Prudhomme said a final decision still was contingent on cycling's international governing body. UCI spokesman Enrico Carpani said it was "too early to say" what will happen.
"We have a deadline of Oct. 31 to respond (to the USADA report)," Carpani said.
A decision not to reattribute Armstrong's victories would leave a seven-year hole in Tour de France record books. It would also mark a shift in how Tour organizers treated similar cases in the past.
When Alberto Contador was stripped of his 2010 Tour victory for a doping violation, organizers held a ceremony to award the race winner's yellow jersey to Luxembourg's Andy Schleck. In 2006, Oscar Pereiro was awarded the victory and a place in the record books after the doping disqualification of American rider Floyd Landis.
Prudhomme refused to talk about the discrepancy in treatment.
In an interview with the AP last month, UCI President Pat McQuaid said he also would prefer to leave those years blank.
"The podium of those tours, second and third, by and large a lot of them either have been convicted of doping some way or another, or would be suspected in terms of doping," McQuaid said. "If it's a question that we would declare that era as a black era, then I'm not afraid to do so."
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I gave him the benefit the doubt for a long time but it seems that now, evidence is overwhelming. It is very, very disappointing to say the least. He was such an inspiration for many, only to find out that he was the main protagonist in a very sophisticated and sustained doping 'program' (not sure what to call this). A cheat and a fake really.... What a let down.
I guess it's only right for the sponsors to dump him and for Armstrong to be removed from the chairmanship of Livestrong.
As far as I gather Anheuser-Busch and Nike will continue to support Livestrong.
Here is the "USADA's raft of documents, which is known collectively as its "reasoned decision" in banning Armstrong from competitive cycling and stripping him of his seven Tour de France titles following his refusal to engage in arbitration over the doping charges, were sent to the International Cycling Union (UCI), the World Anti-Doping Agency and the World Triathlon Corporation on Oct. 10, 2012." if you fancy reading 200+ pages. Or maybe just look at the Table of Contents and go to the bits of interest.
I guess it's only right for the sponsors to dump him and for Armstrong to be removed from the chairmanship of Livestrong.
As far as I gather Anheuser-Busch and Nike will continue to support Livestrong.
don't be fooled by the sponsors ... it's strictly a business decision ... they are still supporting lance ... just not in the open ... also, if the reports are true ... companies like nike and oakley are directly linked to the scam that is lance armstrong ... reports say that the ex-president of the UCI was bribed by both lance and nike to cover up his positive test in the tour de suisse ...
I didn't know about the links/bribed/cover-ups polaris! Far fetching all of this. Of course for the sponsors (whether the likes of Nike or charities), it's a business decision. They can't be seen to be 'condoning' his actions by keeping him as a figurehead.
Also, though he is no longer chairman of Livestrong, I think he is still on the board....
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I guess it's only right for the sponsors to dump him and for Armstrong to be removed from the chairmanship of Livestrong.
As far as I gather Anheuser-Busch and Nike will continue to support Livestrong.
don't be fooled by the sponsors ... it's strictly a business decision ... they are still supporting lance ... just not in the open ... also, if the reports are true ... companies like nike and oakley are directly linked to the scam that is lance armstrong ... reports say that the ex-president of the UCI was bribed by both lance and nike to cover up his positive test in the tour de suisse ...
As much I liked him he sure was very confident he could have kept this doping of his quiet. Don't these people who do these cheating in sports know it's just not worht it you are going to get caught. Even if you don't get caught I find it very hard to live with the fact that you didn't beat your opponents fair and square or is the thinking everybody is cheating so why don't I?
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
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I didn't know about the links/bribed/cover-ups polaris! Far fetching all of this. Of course for the sponsors (whether the likes of Nike or charities), it's a business decision. They can't be seen to be 'condoning' his actions by keeping him as a figurehead.
Also, though he is no longer chairman of Livestrong, I think he is still on the board....
Oh you bet he still is.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Even if you don't get caught I find it very hard to live with the fact that you didn't beat your opponents fair and square or is the thinking everybody is cheating so why don't I?
Peace
Money. You win, you make a mint. Coming second, no-one remembers you. No large company is interested in you. Your name means nothing. All greed. Who cares about morals and ethics.
I admit I haven't been following but who did he piss off?
He swears he's innocent so lets just say that is true.
Who's out for blood and wants him off the charity board?
Hopefully the charity will remain strong.
i agree, Polaris is out for blood it seems. If he cheated, he should be punished. But I see him no different than any other person in any other sport who doped and lied about it. Hell Arod, doped, lied, and continues to be praised as one of the greatest players of his generation.
For me, all dopers should be treated the same. Thats for all sports. If you dope, I dont think you should get to play again. Many other dopers, were caught in cycling, and continue to race.
Seems to me youd want to treat every user the same, same fine, same punishment, banned for life. Why should Basso continue to race?
This is no different than any other of the hundreds of other ball players, cyclists, runners etc.. who doped over the last decade or so.
I admit I haven't been following but who did he piss off?
He swears he's innocent so lets just say that is true.
Who's out for blood and wants him off the charity board?
Hopefully the charity will remain strong.
i agree, Polaris is out for blood it seems. If he cheated, he should be punished. But I see him no different than any other person in any other sport who doped and lied about it. Hell Arod, doped, lied, and continues to be praised as one of the greatest players of his generation.
For me, all dopers should be treated the same. Thats for all sports. If you dope, I dont think you should get to play again. Many other dopers, were caught in cycling, and continue to race.
Seems to me youd want to treat every user the same, same fine, same punishment, banned for life. Why should Basso continue to race?
This is no different than any other of the hundreds of other ball players, cyclists, runners etc.. who doped over the last decade or so.
:fp:
again ... read the evidence man ...
because a) you would realize it's not IF he doped and b) you will also realize he is not being persecuted because he doped ... he's being persecuted because he's lied all these years and used him enormous power and influence to ruin people's lives ...
as much as you want to label me some guy with a grudge with lance ... you are the opposite ... blind faith ... rationalized behaviour ... you won't even read what the facts are and you are defending him ...
AROD at least has ADMITTED to using PED ... and has AROD threatened another person's wife's life? ... has AROD spent millions to call an innocent person a hooker and an alcoholic? ... i can't stand AROD but it's not even the same ...
you do realize Basso has served a suspension and so has quite a few cyclists ... what kind of world do you live in where people are not given a chance to right wrongs?
sure some have served suspensions, but how many ball players/cyclists/track stars are banned for life? Not many.
And im all for giving people second chances, but you might want to revisit that as well, because 2nd chances should be given to all, not just the people you find likeable and okay. Meaning, lance should be forgiven as well.
I refuse to play along. I find it distasteful when others try to tell me how to fell, what I should be feeling, or how I should stand on an issue. The world will never be 300 million people against lance armstrong, and if you are holding your breath for that moment, you will be holding your breath for eons.
The dichotomy exists whether you admit it or not. Ive listed about a dozen other people accused of doping. And every single one you've said isnt as bad as lance. You clearly have issues with lance, and thats your right, but dont act like you are some judicial person, because cheaters and liars should be treated as such, whether your name is Lance or Michael Vick, or A Rod.
The act of Bonds or ARod lying about doping, and they both lied, ARod admitted, but he sure as hell wasnt saying he did it years before, when he WAS doping.
Cheating is cheating.
You also are doing something I really distaste. Assume you know how familiar I am with the case. Lets face it, if people still cant agree on WM3, why would you expect them to agree on Lance?
I admit I haven't been following but who did he piss off?
He swears he's innocent so lets just say that is true.
Who's out for blood and wants him off the charity board?
Hopefully the charity will remain strong.
i agree, Polaris is out for blood it seems. If he cheated, he should be punished. But I see him no different than any other person in any other sport who doped and lied about it. Hell Arod, doped, lied, and continues to be praised as one of the greatest players of his generation.
For me, all dopers should be treated the same. Thats for all sports. If you dope, I dont think you should get to play again. Many other dopers, were caught in cycling, and continue to race.
Seems to me youd want to treat every user the same, same fine, same punishment, banned for life. Why should Basso continue to race?
This is no different than any other of the hundreds of other ball players, cyclists, runners etc.. who doped over the last decade or so.
:fp:
again ... read the evidence man ...
because a) you would realize it's not IF he doped and b) you will also realize he is not being persecuted because he doped ... he's being persecuted because he's lied all these years and used him enormous power and influence to ruin people's lives ...
as much as you want to label me some guy with a grudge with lance ... you are the opposite ... blind faith ... rationalized behaviour ... you won't even read what the facts are and you are defending him ...
AROD at least has ADMITTED to using PED ... and has AROD threatened another person's wife's life? ... has AROD spent millions to call an innocent person a hooker and an alcoholic? ... i can't stand AROD but it's not even the same ...
you do realize Basso has served a suspension and so has quite a few cyclists ... what kind of world do you live in where people are not given a chance to right wrongs?
also, blind faith and rationalized behavior? Really? either you havent been on the board for long, or something. Ive never said cheating or lying was okay in any situation, sports or otherwise. And Ive posted many times how I thought and think any ball player caught using should have their records erased. In fact I said this in a different thread not an hour ago.
I think its silly to become so filled with hatred that you make little sense to anyone. You hate and detest lance.
I'm thinking the difference between the athletes mentioned and Armstrong is that Armstrong was a sustained deception over many, many years, corruption came to play, etc. Basso wasn't, and I'm not that au fait with ARod.
I'm thinking the difference between the athletes mentioned and Armstrong is that Armstrong was a sustained deception over many, many years, corruption came to play, etc. Basso wasn't, and I'm not that au fait with ARod.
I guess I just have a problem with the idea of making him out to be somehow worse than anyone else who doped. We all know a ton of other cyclists doped, including his teammates. His teammates won stages in future events, I remember Hamilton or Landis winning something, a yellow jersey, arms held high. Isnt that as disrespectful to sports and to fans as anything we've discussed here? I think its the same issue, and same behavior. Landis could have admitted that tour he was using, and refused to accept the win in 2006, because he obviously knew he was doping. Instead he acted like what he did was genuine.
Its like alot of these athletes live in this fantasy world or something. And I think thats the sort of culture the MLB and the Tour has had, that with so many athletes using, it legitimizes doping, and makes it not a big deal. If your whole team, and everyone else you know is doping during the Tour, well, then why wouldnt you inject yourself with something? And since everyones doping, I guess the perverted sense is that everyones equal, so Landis celebrating and acting like he won in 2006, was somehow legitimate in that warped sense.
I guess I just have a problem with the idea of making him out to be somehow worse than anyone else who doped.
Again, with Armstrong it's not just about the doping, it's everything that went with it. The corruption, his fraud, his deception. Continuing to sell the 'brave guy who beat cancer to get to the top again' image when it was nothing like that. He was a role model, not only for his (supposed) sporting abilities but also as a man who faced adversity and overcome this. I even got 'roped' into this when I'm not a fan of cycling! So in a way, yes, I would say it was worse than the likes of Basso. Armstrong not only doped but also shat on everything and everyone that had to do with the cancer charities, etc.
But you are right, doping is rife and no sport is free of this. It's all about who can get away with it.
also, blind faith and rationalized behavior? Really? either you havent been on the board for long, or something. Ive never said cheating or lying was okay in any situation, sports or otherwise. And Ive posted many times how I thought and think any ball player caught using should have their records erased. In fact I said this in a different thread not an hour ago.
I think its silly to become so filled with hatred that you make little sense to anyone. You hate and detest lance.
Can we move on?
i've been on the board longer than you ... but that is irrelevant ...
what is relevant is that you up until yesterday still think that he may not have cheated ... and up until yesterday are trying to rationalize his cheating as being the same as other cheats ...
the frustration in discussing this with you is simply that your parallels are inaccurate and that the evidence to show that is available for you to read but you choose to not do so ...
you want a better comparison to lance armstrong? ... try jerry sandusky ... both ruined people's lives, both used power and influence to do so and both are perpetual liars ... despite overwhelming evidence - they continue to lie to all those that believed in them ...
who knows? - maybe lance will one day repent and tell the truth ... and if he does - i hope he blows the cover off the whole thing ... from nike to Verbruggen ... maybe it will be today ...
yeah - i hate lance ... although hate is not a word i would use ... but whatever floats your boat ... i hate him because he is not the person he claims to be and he's built his power and fortune on lies and threats ... but my understanding of this has and will always be in the context of cycling as a sport ... a sport i love to follow ... it is the likes of lance that prevents the sport from being recognized for what it really is as opposed to what it is perceived to be ...
I've yet to meet anyone that's been around him for very long that doesn't think he's a huge prick. I've seen him out and about around Austin since the late 90's and he's always treated people like shit.
If you're going to cheat in life on your wife and kids it's pretty obvious to me you'll cheat in your sport.
This show, another show, a show here and a show there.
I guess I just have a problem with the idea of making him out to be somehow worse than anyone else who doped.
Again, with Armstrong it's not just about the doping, it's everything that went with it. The corruption, his fraud, his deception. Continuing to sell the 'brave guy who beat cancer to get to the top again' image when it was nothing like that. He was a role model, not only for his (supposed) sporting abilities but also as a man who faced adversity and overcome this. I even got 'roped' into this when I'm not a fan of cycling! So in a way, yes, I would say it was worse than the likes of Basso. Armstrong not only doped but also shat on everything and everyone that had to do with the cancer charities, etc.
But you are right, doping is rife and no sport is free of this. It's all about who can get away with it.
Every person caught using has had the same issue. They had marketing, an image: one that clearly wasnt cheater or steroid user. All of them were seen as role models. The big guns, the Bonds, Mcgwires, Clemons, and those who won yellow jerseys and won Tours along with Lance during this era, all participated in a fraud. I think its silly to seperate it. If you accepted some award, any award, in baseball or cycling, or track, where you were being praised for being the fastest, or the person who hit the most HR's or whatever and you knew you were on steroids, then thats the farce. And the people who did do this, who stood on podiums or who made statements and held their hands and awards up while doping, this includes a great deal more athletes than Lance. The main issue isnt one guy. Punishing one guy isnt going to end steroid use in sports. Its widespread, and I think probably needs to be dealt with on a fundamental level. This idea that winning at all costs. You see it in tiny examples all the time, football games where the crowd cheers at some insane hit, where in all likelihood the player could be killed or paralyzed, or in basketball when some player intentionally hits someone and then refuse to ask the other player if they are alright. Thats the mentality not merely of one athlete, but its sewn into the fabric of sports and I would argue American life. You succeed at all costs. You dismantle the opponent.
There were a whole slew of athletes who made bank off an image that was essentially lies and fraud. It wasnt just one man, or one sport. It was, sadly, widespread and accepted. It was almost like some amnesia or widespread hysteria, people in some sort of fugue state, where cheating, lying and doping is not only tolerated and okayed, but its REWARDED. The higher ups in each sport deserve as much blame as anyone, for legitimizes doping, allowing it, and to this day doing practically nothing to rectify the situation
yes i can deny every minute of every day that i was cheating and i can do it if my chemists are better than the governing body's chemists. i would have more respect for lance armstrong if he came out and said yes he cheated and yes he used drugs to do it. he can distance himself as much as he likes from his cancer charity and it makes not one lick of difference to what i think of him as an athlete. i admire his work with charity.. i do not admire his work as an 'athlete'
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i think what makes this case and issue so complex, and it is complex, is that its as I said before, lance isnt some evil guy. I think you can admire what he's done in battling back from a death sentence. Wasnt he given like 3 weeks to live or something. He fought back, and is an incredible athlete. I also think you can view him as a cheater, and doper. I dont think those ideas are mutually exclusive as many on this board have tried to say they are. There are many heroes who have done wierd, odd, sad, messed up things, but I dont think that means we string them up and hang them, nor do we view them as perfect. We view them as human. Lance never claimed to be superhuman. I think the last thing he'd want, is someone saying "what lance accomplished was somehow for him only, only he could do it". And he clearly had an impact on people, emotionally in a way most athletes rarely do.
And I think thats what the take away from all this is: can you admire him for his efforts to fight back against this disease, and to expose and discuss and promote donations to causes that deal in awareness of cancer. And then can you also, simotaneously, be against doping and cheating? I think both are possible.
For years, he's seemed focused on cancer awareness. Anytime the guy speaks he talks about this disease that effects millions. He really hasnt played the victim card, even though he could. I think his heart is in the right place. And I think he truely does want cancer to be wiped off the face of the earth and a cure found. The Tour wins, I think, for him are less important than the cancer awareness stuff.
Founding an organization that seeks to educate, elucidate, illuminate this issue, this real issue, I have a hard time believeing thats a bad legacy, no matter what he shot into his body.
Again, MLK was flawed. FDR was flawed. Lincoln was flawed. I dont think you throw the baby out with the bathwater.
..Again, MLK was flawed. FDR was flawed. Lincoln was flawed. I dont think you throw the baby out with the bathwater.
youre comparing lance armstrong to MLK, FDR and lincoln???? :shock: sustained cheating isnt a flaw.. its cheating.
no im saying heroes arent perfect, and that some of americas greatest heroes cheated as well or lied or were disingenuous. There seems to be this idea that unless you are stain free, you dont deserve to be a hero. Ive tried to suggest, being flawed only makes you more of a hero, because it makes you more human. Im not able to relate to people who dont mess up, or make mistakes, because im human. A hero is someone who shows us we all can be our true selves and can overcome, persevere, beat the "demons" etc.. Im also sure MLK didnt just cheat with one woman and one instance. So this idea that sustained cheating and lying is only a crown that fits lance I think is naive.
For me, i dont give up on people just because they make mistakes. I see people as multilayered, multifaceted, complex creatures. We do things that are bad, and we do things that are good. Thats human nature. This idea that if someone does something bad, then they are branded with the scarlet letter for eternity like Hester Prin, thats not me, and its not the values I hold dear. Im a human being with the ability to hold two ideas at the same time. I can admire Jordan for his perseverance and his stance on work ethics and working hard, but I also realize that same trait probably makes him not a nice guy to be around, meaning I dont think he can shut off that competetive part of his brain even when its not a game situation. I recognize he's cheated on his wife, and seems to be a ladies man, but I also view him as a hero for embodying the idea of if you work hard, you can acheieve your dreams.
..Again, MLK was flawed. FDR was flawed. Lincoln was flawed. I dont think you throw the baby out with the bathwater.
youre comparing lance armstrong to MLK, FDR and lincoln???? :shock: sustained cheating isnt a flaw.. its cheating.
i also take issue with the idea lance is unique. Take a look around at sports in general. Culture in general right now. Cheating and lying are practically viewed as birthrights for people these days. I think its pointless to take on one man, when the reality is that this behavior is prevalent in all sports, in buisness, in life. And even if Lance is sentenced to life in prison, thats not going to rearrange our values as a society. If we are real about eradicating cheating in sports, lets do something about it. Lets not act like any of this is about eradicating cheating. It isnt. No one in the Tour higher offices will be punished or serve time, and no one in the MLB has served time or been seriously punished either.
..Again, MLK was flawed. FDR was flawed. Lincoln was flawed. I dont think you throw the baby out with the bathwater.
youre comparing lance armstrong to MLK, FDR and lincoln???? :shock: sustained cheating isnt a flaw.. its cheating.
no im saying heroes arent perfect, and that some of americas greatest heroes cheated as well or lied or were disingenuous. There seems to be this idea that unless you are stain free, you dont deserve to be a hero. Ive tried to suggest, being flawed only makes you more of a hero, because it makes you more human. Im not able to relate to people who dont mess up, or make mistakes, because im human. A hero is someone who shows us we all can be our true selves and can overcome, persevere, beat the "demons" etc.. Im also sure MLK didnt just cheat with one woman and one instance. So this idea that sustained cheating and lying is only a crown that fits lance I think is naive.
For me, i dont give up on people just because they make mistakes. I see people as multilayered, multifaceted, complex creatures. We do things that are bad, and we do things that are good. Thats human nature. This idea that if someone does something bad, then they are branded with the scarlet letter for eternity like Hester Prin, thats not me, and its not the values I hold dear. Im a human being with the ability to hold two ideas at the same time. I can admire Jordan for his perseverance and his stance on work ethics and working hard, but I also realize that same trait probably makes him not a nice guy to be around, meaning I dont think he can shut off that competetive part of his brain even when its not a game situation. I recognize he's cheated on his wife, and seems to be a ladies man, but I also view him as a hero for embodying the idea of if you work hard, you can acheieve your dreams.
im not speaking of armstrong cheating on his partners.. thats between him and his partners. im talking about him cheating by using drugs to attain the consistantly high standard he has in his sport.
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Comments
there are rumours that next year's tour (100th anniversary) will actually end on alpe d'huez! ... that would be sooo awesome ...
I can see that something unusual and different is surely needed to bring the TDF into and through a whole new era of cycling.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
The Tour de France will have no official winners for the seven races from 1999-2005 if Lance Armstrong is stripped of his victories by the UCI for doping.
Tour director Christian Prudhomme told The Associated Press on Friday that the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency's report on Armstrong is "damning" and called into question "a system and an era."
Prudhomme said a final decision still was contingent on cycling's international governing body. UCI spokesman Enrico Carpani said it was "too early to say" what will happen.
"We have a deadline of Oct. 31 to respond (to the USADA report)," Carpani said.
A decision not to reattribute Armstrong's victories would leave a seven-year hole in Tour de France record books. It would also mark a shift in how Tour organizers treated similar cases in the past.
When Alberto Contador was stripped of his 2010 Tour victory for a doping violation, organizers held a ceremony to award the race winner's yellow jersey to Luxembourg's Andy Schleck. In 2006, Oscar Pereiro was awarded the victory and a place in the record books after the doping disqualification of American rider Floyd Landis.
Prudhomme refused to talk about the discrepancy in treatment.
In an interview with the AP last month, UCI President Pat McQuaid said he also would prefer to leave those years blank.
"The podium of those tours, second and third, by and large a lot of them either have been convicted of doping some way or another, or would be suspected in terms of doping," McQuaid said. "If it's a question that we would declare that era as a black era, then I'm not afraid to do so."
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
http://bottomline.nbcnews.com/_news/201 ... trong?lite
i guess he can always fall back on a milk sponsorship..
"i'm completely miserable san diego...........it's so damn hot.......milk was a baad choice...."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
He swears he's innocent so lets just say that is true.
Who's out for blood and wants him off the charity board?
Hopefully the charity will remain strong.
I guess it's only right for the sponsors to dump him and for Armstrong to be removed from the chairmanship of Livestrong.
As far as I gather Anheuser-Busch and Nike will continue to support Livestrong.
Here is the "USADA's raft of documents, which is known collectively as its "reasoned decision" in banning Armstrong from competitive cycling and stripping him of his seven Tour de France titles following his refusal to engage in arbitration over the doping charges, were sent to the International Cycling Union (UCI), the World Anti-Doping Agency and the World Triathlon Corporation on Oct. 10, 2012." if you fancy reading 200+ pages. Or maybe just look at the Table of Contents and go to the bits of interest.
http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/docume ... strong/72/
don't be fooled by the sponsors ... it's strictly a business decision ... they are still supporting lance ... just not in the open ... also, if the reports are true ... companies like nike and oakley are directly linked to the scam that is lance armstrong ... reports say that the ex-president of the UCI was bribed by both lance and nike to cover up his positive test in the tour de suisse ...
Also, though he is no longer chairman of Livestrong, I think he is still on the board....
As much I liked him he sure was very confident he could have kept this doping of his quiet. Don't these people who do these cheating in sports know it's just not worht it you are going to get caught. Even if you don't get caught I find it very hard to live with the fact that you didn't beat your opponents fair and square or is the thinking everybody is cheating so why don't I?
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Oh you bet he still is.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Money. You win, you make a mint. Coming second, no-one remembers you. No large company is interested in you. Your name means nothing. All greed. Who cares about morals and ethics.
i agree, Polaris is out for blood it seems. If he cheated, he should be punished. But I see him no different than any other person in any other sport who doped and lied about it. Hell Arod, doped, lied, and continues to be praised as one of the greatest players of his generation.
For me, all dopers should be treated the same. Thats for all sports. If you dope, I dont think you should get to play again. Many other dopers, were caught in cycling, and continue to race.
Seems to me youd want to treat every user the same, same fine, same punishment, banned for life. Why should Basso continue to race?
This is no different than any other of the hundreds of other ball players, cyclists, runners etc.. who doped over the last decade or so.
:fp:
again ... read the evidence man ...
because a) you would realize it's not IF he doped and b) you will also realize he is not being persecuted because he doped ... he's being persecuted because he's lied all these years and used him enormous power and influence to ruin people's lives ...
as much as you want to label me some guy with a grudge with lance ... you are the opposite ... blind faith ... rationalized behaviour ... you won't even read what the facts are and you are defending him ...
AROD at least has ADMITTED to using PED ... and has AROD threatened another person's wife's life? ... has AROD spent millions to call an innocent person a hooker and an alcoholic? ... i can't stand AROD but it's not even the same ...
you do realize Basso has served a suspension and so has quite a few cyclists ... what kind of world do you live in where people are not given a chance to right wrongs?
And im all for giving people second chances, but you might want to revisit that as well, because 2nd chances should be given to all, not just the people you find likeable and okay. Meaning, lance should be forgiven as well.
I refuse to play along. I find it distasteful when others try to tell me how to fell, what I should be feeling, or how I should stand on an issue. The world will never be 300 million people against lance armstrong, and if you are holding your breath for that moment, you will be holding your breath for eons.
The dichotomy exists whether you admit it or not. Ive listed about a dozen other people accused of doping. And every single one you've said isnt as bad as lance. You clearly have issues with lance, and thats your right, but dont act like you are some judicial person, because cheaters and liars should be treated as such, whether your name is Lance or Michael Vick, or A Rod.
The act of Bonds or ARod lying about doping, and they both lied, ARod admitted, but he sure as hell wasnt saying he did it years before, when he WAS doping.
Cheating is cheating.
You also are doing something I really distaste. Assume you know how familiar I am with the case. Lets face it, if people still cant agree on WM3, why would you expect them to agree on Lance?
also, blind faith and rationalized behavior? Really? either you havent been on the board for long, or something. Ive never said cheating or lying was okay in any situation, sports or otherwise. And Ive posted many times how I thought and think any ball player caught using should have their records erased. In fact I said this in a different thread not an hour ago.
I think its silly to become so filled with hatred that you make little sense to anyone. You hate and detest lance.
Can we move on?
I guess I just have a problem with the idea of making him out to be somehow worse than anyone else who doped. We all know a ton of other cyclists doped, including his teammates. His teammates won stages in future events, I remember Hamilton or Landis winning something, a yellow jersey, arms held high. Isnt that as disrespectful to sports and to fans as anything we've discussed here? I think its the same issue, and same behavior. Landis could have admitted that tour he was using, and refused to accept the win in 2006, because he obviously knew he was doping. Instead he acted like what he did was genuine.
Its like alot of these athletes live in this fantasy world or something. And I think thats the sort of culture the MLB and the Tour has had, that with so many athletes using, it legitimizes doping, and makes it not a big deal. If your whole team, and everyone else you know is doping during the Tour, well, then why wouldnt you inject yourself with something? And since everyones doping, I guess the perverted sense is that everyones equal, so Landis celebrating and acting like he won in 2006, was somehow legitimate in that warped sense.
Very strange stuff
Again, with Armstrong it's not just about the doping, it's everything that went with it. The corruption, his fraud, his deception. Continuing to sell the 'brave guy who beat cancer to get to the top again' image when it was nothing like that. He was a role model, not only for his (supposed) sporting abilities but also as a man who faced adversity and overcome this. I even got 'roped' into this when I'm not a fan of cycling! So in a way, yes, I would say it was worse than the likes of Basso. Armstrong not only doped but also shat on everything and everyone that had to do with the cancer charities, etc.
But you are right, doping is rife and no sport is free of this. It's all about who can get away with it.
i've been on the board longer than you ... but that is irrelevant ...
what is relevant is that you up until yesterday still think that he may not have cheated ... and up until yesterday are trying to rationalize his cheating as being the same as other cheats ...
the frustration in discussing this with you is simply that your parallels are inaccurate and that the evidence to show that is available for you to read but you choose to not do so ...
you want a better comparison to lance armstrong? ... try jerry sandusky ... both ruined people's lives, both used power and influence to do so and both are perpetual liars ... despite overwhelming evidence - they continue to lie to all those that believed in them ...
who knows? - maybe lance will one day repent and tell the truth ... and if he does - i hope he blows the cover off the whole thing ... from nike to Verbruggen ... maybe it will be today ...
yeah - i hate lance ... although hate is not a word i would use ... but whatever floats your boat ... i hate him because he is not the person he claims to be and he's built his power and fortune on lies and threats ... but my understanding of this has and will always be in the context of cycling as a sport ... a sport i love to follow ... it is the likes of lance that prevents the sport from being recognized for what it really is as opposed to what it is perceived to be ...
so ... yeah - we can move on ...
If you're going to cheat in life on your wife and kids it's pretty obvious to me you'll cheat in your sport.
Every person caught using has had the same issue. They had marketing, an image: one that clearly wasnt cheater or steroid user. All of them were seen as role models. The big guns, the Bonds, Mcgwires, Clemons, and those who won yellow jerseys and won Tours along with Lance during this era, all participated in a fraud. I think its silly to seperate it. If you accepted some award, any award, in baseball or cycling, or track, where you were being praised for being the fastest, or the person who hit the most HR's or whatever and you knew you were on steroids, then thats the farce. And the people who did do this, who stood on podiums or who made statements and held their hands and awards up while doping, this includes a great deal more athletes than Lance. The main issue isnt one guy. Punishing one guy isnt going to end steroid use in sports. Its widespread, and I think probably needs to be dealt with on a fundamental level. This idea that winning at all costs. You see it in tiny examples all the time, football games where the crowd cheers at some insane hit, where in all likelihood the player could be killed or paralyzed, or in basketball when some player intentionally hits someone and then refuse to ask the other player if they are alright. Thats the mentality not merely of one athlete, but its sewn into the fabric of sports and I would argue American life. You succeed at all costs. You dismantle the opponent.
There were a whole slew of athletes who made bank off an image that was essentially lies and fraud. It wasnt just one man, or one sport. It was, sadly, widespread and accepted. It was almost like some amnesia or widespread hysteria, people in some sort of fugue state, where cheating, lying and doping is not only tolerated and okayed, but its REWARDED. The higher ups in each sport deserve as much blame as anyone, for legitimizes doping, allowing it, and to this day doing practically nothing to rectify the situation
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
And I think thats what the take away from all this is: can you admire him for his efforts to fight back against this disease, and to expose and discuss and promote donations to causes that deal in awareness of cancer. And then can you also, simotaneously, be against doping and cheating? I think both are possible.
For years, he's seemed focused on cancer awareness. Anytime the guy speaks he talks about this disease that effects millions. He really hasnt played the victim card, even though he could. I think his heart is in the right place. And I think he truely does want cancer to be wiped off the face of the earth and a cure found. The Tour wins, I think, for him are less important than the cancer awareness stuff.
Founding an organization that seeks to educate, elucidate, illuminate this issue, this real issue, I have a hard time believeing thats a bad legacy, no matter what he shot into his body.
Again, MLK was flawed. FDR was flawed. Lincoln was flawed. I dont think you throw the baby out with the bathwater.
youre comparing lance armstrong to MLK, FDR and lincoln???? :shock: sustained cheating isnt a flaw.. its cheating.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
no im saying heroes arent perfect, and that some of americas greatest heroes cheated as well or lied or were disingenuous. There seems to be this idea that unless you are stain free, you dont deserve to be a hero. Ive tried to suggest, being flawed only makes you more of a hero, because it makes you more human. Im not able to relate to people who dont mess up, or make mistakes, because im human. A hero is someone who shows us we all can be our true selves and can overcome, persevere, beat the "demons" etc.. Im also sure MLK didnt just cheat with one woman and one instance. So this idea that sustained cheating and lying is only a crown that fits lance I think is naive.
For me, i dont give up on people just because they make mistakes. I see people as multilayered, multifaceted, complex creatures. We do things that are bad, and we do things that are good. Thats human nature. This idea that if someone does something bad, then they are branded with the scarlet letter for eternity like Hester Prin, thats not me, and its not the values I hold dear. Im a human being with the ability to hold two ideas at the same time. I can admire Jordan for his perseverance and his stance on work ethics and working hard, but I also realize that same trait probably makes him not a nice guy to be around, meaning I dont think he can shut off that competetive part of his brain even when its not a game situation. I recognize he's cheated on his wife, and seems to be a ladies man, but I also view him as a hero for embodying the idea of if you work hard, you can acheieve your dreams.
i also take issue with the idea lance is unique. Take a look around at sports in general. Culture in general right now. Cheating and lying are practically viewed as birthrights for people these days. I think its pointless to take on one man, when the reality is that this behavior is prevalent in all sports, in buisness, in life. And even if Lance is sentenced to life in prison, thats not going to rearrange our values as a society. If we are real about eradicating cheating in sports, lets do something about it. Lets not act like any of this is about eradicating cheating. It isnt. No one in the Tour higher offices will be punished or serve time, and no one in the MLB has served time or been seriously punished either.
im not speaking of armstrong cheating on his partners.. thats between him and his partners. im talking about him cheating by using drugs to attain the consistantly high standard he has in his sport.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say