oil canada vs' the great bear rainforest

chadwick

polaris_x wrote:

no ... we are not dependent on oil ... our dependency is manufactured and fabricated ... the oil sands don't make any sense whatsoever in any sustainability model ... the resources required to extract that oil is absurd ... much of which we pay the oil companies to use ...

big oil is very influential ...

and yeah - high speed rail makes so much sense ... you can thank lobbyists and big oil for some of that blame ...

hugs for you, polaris

Drowned Out

lukin2006 wrote:

While I understand the oil sands in Alberta to be a huge environmental problem, is there a solution to getting that oil that make sense environmentally? It pretty clear that we are going to be dependent on oil for a long time to come.

Well, even if they were able to make the processing and extraction of the bitumen from the sand more environmentally friendly, it's not possible to make the process of mining the sand more friendly. The sand is strip-mined. Meaning thousands of acres of boreal forrest, wetlands, topsoil, etc (or, as industry calls it: 'overburden' :roll: ) has to be destroyed just to get to the point of processing the tarsand.

Once that processing starts, we begin chasing our tails energy-wise....this is where it goes from sickeningly destructive, to complete madness:

Oil sands mining is licensed to use twice the amount of fresh water that the entire city of Calgary uses in a year. The water requirements for oil sands projects range from 2.5 to 4.0 barrels of water for each barrel of oil produced.

Processing the oil sands uses enough natural gas in a day to heat 3 million homes in Canada. Natural gas requirements for the oil sands industry are projected to increase substantially during the projected period from 17 million cubic metres (0.6 billion cubic feet) per day in 2003 to a range of 40 to 45 million cubic metres (1.4 to 1.6 billion cubic) feet per day in 2015.


All of the waste-water ends up in 'tailings' ponds.....massive open-air sludge lakes. There are a lot of people working on technology to stop using water to 'float' the oil, but obviously it's not there yet. Not sure what a traditional alternative to the natural gas use would be.

polaris_x

and you have to factor in the power usage in tar sands extraction ... most of which is coal-powered ... it's a clustercuss of epic proportions but hey ... i'm just a guy from ontario who has a hate on for alberta ... :(

lukin2006

polaris_x wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

While I understand the oil sands in Alberta to be a huge environmental problem, is there a solution to getting that oil that make sense environmentally? It pretty clear that we are going to be dependent on oil for a long time to come.

Now as much as the oil companies are to blame...we people are disgusting in our abuse of natural resources.
How many people drive to the corner store? when they could walk? How many of those people that drive into the city for work could use public transit? Why are the governments of North America not investing in high speed rail? I think we people could consume a whole lot less...I often see some of that junk at wal mart and wonders who buys that?

And when I talk about Ontario being disgusting in the south mine point of reference on that is the amount of cars on the road...just terrible...no matter what major city in southern Ontario it's congested.

no ... we are not dependent on oil ... our dependency is manufactured and fabricated ... the oil sands don't make any sense whatsoever in any sustainability model ... the resources required to extract that oil is absurd ... much of which we pay the oil companies to use ...

big oil is very influential ...

and yeah - high speed rail makes so much sense ... you can thank lobbyists and big oil for some of that blame ...

Then if we're not depended we are addicted...and there is not enough political will to change it. But to think the Alberta government is going to interfere in any serious way isn't going to happen...to much revenue...just as the federal government will not interfere...they also need the revenue...any solutions to make up the revenue shortfall.

I know here in the Windsor area the beginning of the collapse of the green economy is happening...we've had a couple solar plants close and I believe others are in trouble and none reached its employment potential.

So I guess instead of everybody bitching then you better find solutions. If the government don't have revenue how do you expect them to pay for our social programs?

Drowned Out

polaris_x wrote:

and you have to factor in the power usage in tar sands extraction ... most of which is coal-powered ... it's a clustercuss of epic proportions but hey ... i'm just a guy from ontario who has a hate on for alberta ... :(

I hope that's not what you took from my criticism of S.ON........was meant as a general comment. When I lived in ON, I was really struck by the difference in air quality....East Hamilton was horrifying to me....brick stained black by pollution, grass that never turns green....Wasn't my intent to sound defensive, or an attempt to turn the tables or whatever. (and as stated, I'm really glad things have improved).
I admit, it does get a bit tiresome to be shat upon by the rest of the country all the time, for the opinions/beliefs of others in my province (esp when no one raises a fuss about accepting 'dirty money' - transfer payments)....but I absolutely understand why AB is a target....it's deserved.
But I also understand why Albertans distrust the power centres of the east....don't agree with those reasons, because they're mostly based in greed...but the whole 'let the eastern bastards freeze in the dark' mentality is still lingering....and would become a total flashpoint again if any government intervention/regulation caused job loss in the province.

You're right about the power usage too....because of that, there is still a push happening here for our first nuclear power plant.

polaris_x

lukin2006 wrote:

Then if we're not depended we are addicted...and there is not enough political will to change it. But to think the Alberta government is going to interfere in any serious way isn't going to happen...to much revenue...just as the federal government will not interfere...they also need the revenue...any solutions to make up the revenue shortfall.

I know here in the Windsor area the beginning of the collapse of the green economy is happening...we've had a couple solar plants close and I believe others are in trouble and none reached its employment potential.

So I guess instead of everybody bitching then you better find solutions. If the government don't have revenue how do you expect them to pay for our social programs?

well ... the whole thing has to be reworked ... we need to pay the TRUE cost of energy ... we can't let industry continue to use resources below fair value and then have to pay for their clean up and consequences ... global warming related consequences are going to cost taxpayers $20 billion a year by 2020 and it's only gonna go up exponentially ... so, why we lament over revenues - all we are doing is deferring the cost to future generations ...

polaris_x

Drowned Out wrote:

I hope that's not what you took from my criticism of S.ON........was meant as a general comment. When I lived in ON, I was really struck by the difference in air quality....East Hamilton was horrifying to me....brick stained black by pollution, grass that never turns green....Wasn't my intent to sound defensive, or an attempt to turn the tables or whatever. (and as stated, I'm really glad things have improved).
I admit, it does get a bit tiresome to be shat upon by the rest of the country all the time, for the opinions/beliefs of others in my province (esp when no one raises a fuss about accepting 'dirty money' - transfer payments)....but I absolutely understand why AB is a target....it's deserved.
But I also understand why Albertans distrust the power centres of the east....don't agree with those reasons, because they're mostly based in greed...but the whole 'let the eastern bastards freeze in the dark' mentality is still lingering....and would become a total flashpoint again if any government intervention/regulation caused job loss in the province.

You're right about the power usage too....because of that, there is still a push happening here for our first nuclear power plant.

no no ... it's just a reflection of the general feeling of westerners on canadians in the east ... i find it both funny and sad how every time i'm out west - somebody feels the need to tell me how shit toronto is only to find out they've never spent any time there ... :(

it's that divisiveness and ignorance that i think allows alberta to be ruled by conservatives both federally and provincially for the last few decades ...

lukin2006

polaris_x wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

Then if we're not depended we are addicted...and there is not enough political will to change it. But to think the Alberta government is going to interfere in any serious way isn't going to happen...to much revenue...just as the federal government will not interfere...they also need the revenue...any solutions to make up the revenue shortfall.

I know here in the Windsor area the beginning of the collapse of the green economy is happening...we've had a couple solar plants close and I believe others are in trouble and none reached its employment potential.

So I guess instead of everybody bitching then you better find solutions. If the government don't have revenue how do you expect them to pay for our social programs?

well ... the whole thing has to be reworked ... we need to pay the TRUE cost of energy ... we can't let industry continue to use resources below fair value and then have to pay for their clean up and consequences ... global warming related consequences are going to cost taxpayers $20 billion a year by 2020 and it's only gonna go up exponentially ... so, why we lament over revenues - all we are doing is deferring the cost to future generations ...

I'm not lamenting over revenues...and I'm all for solutions...

The government is the one that wants the revenue from oil...that's the problem. And as of now we have a federal government that is not interested in solutions.

polaris_x

lukin2006 wrote:

I'm not lamenting over revenues...and I'm all for solutions...

The government is the one that wants the revenue from oil...that's the problem. And as of now we have a federal government that is not interested in solutions.

it wasn't a personal comment ... just a general statement of how we as a society think ... short termism ...

Drowned Out

polaris_x wrote:

no no ... it's just a reflection of the general feeling of westerners on canadians in the east ... i find it both funny and sad how every time i'm out west - somebody feels the need to tell me how shit toronto is only to find out they've never spent any time there ... :(

it's that divisiveness and ignorance that i think allows alberta to be ruled by conservatives both federally and provincially for the last few decades ...

Ya, people will make vague references to the Trudeau and the NEP and what it did to our economy...but, at least amongst younger people, if pressed about it, they really don't know much about what went down back then. It's just carry over of their parents bitterness. I think that conversation is where the greed comes into play - people insist that the NEP killed our economy....but I think it probably just put us on a level field with the rest of the country - so people are basically saying 'we should have been allowed to prosper while the rest of the country suffered'...which I don't agree with. I'm sure it's not hard to show that it had an impact....but in almost every case, (same as the project cancellations over royalties a few years back), the oil companies are playing politics when they cancel these projects......if oil is as finite as they'd have us believe, they are not walking away from the tarsands. They may 'cancel' as a ploy to pressure government..but if the govt stuck to their guns, those projects would come back online soon enough.

Then there's the bitterness over stupid things like TSN playing the overtime of some unimportant Leafs game instead of starting an Oiler or Flames game on time. yes, I'm serious. Albertans take those 'slights' seriously

I wish more people celebrated the diversity of our country instead of being divisive. I love Ontario. Even the Big Smoke

polaris_x

Drowned Out wrote:

I guess the good news is that the jobs created here are drawing people from more left-leaning places....maybe that will help shift things a bit in the future (prob wishful thinking). I met a girl a while back who mentioned that she is a greenpeace member, and brought up environmental concerns almost immediately in our first conversation...she had a bit of a hippy style to her....My first question to her was "how long ago did you move here from BC?' ....she gave me a weird look and said "I just moved here from Nelson, how did you know?"

I wish more people celebrated the diversity of our country instead of being divisive. I love Ontario. Even the Big Smoke

no kidding!

chadwick

the way i see it
let the middle easter countries drill and suck oil.
they're a sauna of sand and bullshit

no worries
we'll all get gas for our bunk ass transportation

the problem is some wanna bathe in wealth like the oil sheiks whom waste a lot of fucking money

the temperate rainforests in eastern canada (southerastern alaska & eastern washington state) are absolutely perfect in every way until man enters the pictures.

in fact, most people do not even know that canada and the united states have rainforests. most people are completely naive, ignorant, uninformed, carefree, and to lazy and spoiled to want to improve themselves through learning about whatever the fuck

and by all means do i not want to hurt anyone's feelings when it comes to oil sucking the middle east. i wish not one swingin john sucked oil

i wish we walked further and more often.

i wish people actually gave a damn
most do not and they haven't a clue

very, very sad

lukin2006

polaris_x wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

I'm not lamenting over revenues...and I'm all for solutions...

The government is the one that wants the revenue from oil...that's the problem. And as of now we have a federal government that is not interested in solutions.

it wasn't a personal comment ... just a general statement of how we as a society think ... short termism ...

if we can get the politicians thinking beyond their terms would be a good start. Personally I would like to see the start of the high speed rail development...it would be a long term project that would create plenty of jobs and would be an extremely positive for our country.

Unfortunately I'm afraid the Alberta Tar Sands are going to continue for quite sometime with very little intervention :fp:.

candleofthought26

Our friends here make important points. The hard truth is that we are under the direction of a governm't that doesn't give a fuck about the environment. All action is led by inflated short-term job creation and revenue projections. They casually trade our limited and precious resources for monopoly money, without the input of the public - and the reason for this is because we aren't saying or doing anything about it. Not nearly enough people speak out and voice their concerns in the political sphere. If enough of the public was mobilized to demand accountability and a democratic process on important environmental decisions -- even this government could not ignore it. Today, they get away with murder because no perceptible public opposition exists. Most of this country lives in a state of political apathy. One person writing letters, emails, or making a call may not seem to make a difference, but imagine hundreds of thousands (or dare I dream, more) doing the same. And exercise your right to vote.

In this country we have been handed down the privilege of democratic rights -- but we all need to PARTICIPATE in order to keep these rights -- otherwise they will be revoked. Each time a small proportion of this country's representatives make our decisions, the democratic process breaks down. Each new bill proposed introduces a more innovative way to block public input and shut down means for holding government responsible for its actions. Do we want to wake up one day stripped of our rights, freedoms, and the environment that sustains us?

candleofthought26

One way you can make your voice heard is by speaking out on the newly proposed Bill C-38, which dissolves environmental safeguards across the country and systematically shuts out public input and democratic debate -- by taking part in BlackoutSpeakOut on June 4th: http://blackoutspeakout.ca/index.php

And write those letters, make those calls, let them know this back-door politics shit isn't going to be jammed down our throats.

If anyone has info on how to participate in protecting Great Bear Rainforest, please share.

chadwick

candleofthought26 wrote:

Our friends here make important points. The hard truth is that we are under the direction of a governm't that doesn't give a fuck about the environment. All action is led by inflated short-term job creation and revenue projections. They casually trade our limited and precious resources for monopoly money, without the input of the public - and the reason for this is because we aren't saying or doing anything about it. Not nearly enough people speak out and voice their concerns in the political sphere. If enough of the public was mobilized to demand accountability and a democratic process on important environmental decisions -- even this government could not ignore it. Today, they get away with murder because no perceptible public opposition exists. Most of this country lives in a state of political apathy. One person writing letters, emails, or making a call may not seem to make a difference, but imagine hundreds of thousands (or dare I dream, more) doing the same. And exercise your right to vote.

In this country we have been handed down the privilege of democratic rights -- but we all need to PARTICIPATE in order to keep these rights -- otherwise they will be revoked. Each time a small proportion of this country's representatives make our decisions, the democratic process breaks down. Each new bill proposed introduces a more innovative way to block public input and shut down means for holding government responsible for its actions. Do we want to wake up one day stripped of our rights, freedoms, and the environment that sustains us?

thank you very much. this is very well written and speaks huge facts. let's have a meeting

chadwick

candleofthought26 wrote:

One way you can make your voice heard is by speaking out on the newly proposed Bill C-38, which dissolves environmental safeguards across the country and systematically shuts out public input and democratic debate -- by taking part in BlackoutSpeakOut on June 4th: http://blackoutspeakout.ca/index.php

And write those letters, make those calls, let them know this back-door politics shit isn't going to be jammed down our throats.

If anyone has info on how to participate in protecting Great Bear Rainforest, please share.

i will check out this site and make the phone calls and write the letters.

i have an idea on protecting the great bear rainforest.... :twisted: it isn't pretty and involves kicking some ass :evil:

lukin2006

Write as many letters as you want, mobilize as much as you want...this federal government is Alberta based and they are not going to interfere with Alberta selling this oil.

Canadian oil production may hit six million bpd by 2020: CIBC

http://business.financialpost.com/2012/ ... a=fc5e920c

It looks like it could get much worse...this government is determined to sell the oil from Alberta, if not to the States then someone else will buy it.

This government has a majority and doesn't care what people who oppose them has to say...

chadwick

lukin2006 wrote:

Write as many letters as you want, mobilize as much as you want...this federal government is Alberta based and they are not going to interfere with Alberta selling this oil.

Canadian oil production may hit six million bpd by 2020: CIBC

http://business.financialpost.com/2012/ ... a=fc5e920c

It looks like it could get much worse...this government is determined to sell the oil from Alberta, if not to the States then someone else will buy it.

This government has a majority and doesn't care what people who oppose them has to say...

200+ tanker loads would be destined for china. i read and heard that in these links in this thread.

i always thought that in a democratic free system we the people called the shots.

i guess i do not understand politics whatsoever

lukin2006

chadwick wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

Write as many letters as you want, mobilize as much as you want...this federal government is Alberta based and they are not going to interfere with Alberta selling this oil.

Canadian oil production may hit six million bpd by 2020: CIBC

http://business.financialpost.com/2012/ ... a=fc5e920c

It looks like it could get much worse...this government is determined to sell the oil from Alberta, if not to the States then someone else will buy it.

This government has a majority and doesn't care what people who oppose them has to say...

200+ tanker loads would be destined for china. i read and heard that in these link in this thread.

i always thought that in a democratic free system we the people called the shots.

i guess i do not understand politics whatsoever

i know in my lifetime other than voting every so often the government has not sought my approval on issues. I totally understand people's beef with Alberta oil sands...i really doubt much is going to slow them down in the next 3 years or beyond.

honestly I have not seen any polls conducted in Canada on what Canadians think about the tar sands...for all I know maybe the majority have know problem...they are major job producers and I know many from my region that went to Alberta for work as many others from regions that are economically challenged.

Unfortunately for many when it comes to feed your family or taking care of the environment many choose to work in Alberta and give their families a better life.