Tom Gabel of Against Me! transgendered

facepollution

sleeplikeadog wrote:

I don't see why it bothers anyone, or why anyone who doesn't have anything nice or positive to say would say anything at all.

It doesn't bother me, anyone interested in psychology would find this interesting. Conversely, I have no interest in toeing the politically correct line on such a complex issue. Like I said, I'm not judging the guy, but there is no evidence to suggest that surgery is the one and only solution.

catefrances

facepollution wrote:

sleeplikeadog wrote:

I don't see why it bothers anyone, or why anyone who doesn't have anything nice or positive to say would say anything at all.

It doesn't bother me, anyone interested in psychology would find this interesting. Conversely, I have no interest in toeing the politically correct line on such a complex issue. Like I said, I'm not judging the guy, but there is no evidence to suggest that surgery is the one and only solution.

youre right but in this case it seems to be. and the ultimate judge of that is and should rightly be the person themselves. as i said earlier i dont think tom woke up one day and said hmmm i think i want to be a girl please cut off my penis and give me girl boobies.

facepollution

catefrances wrote:

youre right but in this case it seems to be. and the ultimate judge of that is and should rightly be the person themselves. as i said earlier i dont think tom woke up one day and said hmmm i think i want to be a girl please cut off my penis and give me girl boobies.

But then in the case I talked about the guy changed his mind AFTER he had the surgery. I guess happiness isn't always tangible.

catefrances

facepollution wrote:

catefrances wrote:

youre right but in this case it seems to be. and the ultimate judge of that is and should rightly be the person themselves. as i said earlier i dont think tom woke up one day and said hmmm i think i want to be a girl please cut off my penis and give me girl boobies.

But then in the case I talked about the guy changed his mind AFTER he had the surgery. I guess happiness isn't always tangible.

oh my do you think people are individuals with their own independent thoughts and hangups? :P

just cause your example person ended up regretting their decision( and i think they did so cause the support wasnt there) doesnt mean laura will want to revert to being tom in the future... or regret her decision. we just dont know and i think we should support a persons decision, especially when its as difficult a one as this appears to be.

Jason P

Having your twigs and berries cut off is punk as punk gets.

Does someone have to go through extensive psychoanalysis before doing this or can you just call a specialist and set up a date?

Wilds

facepollution wrote:

Wilds wrote:

I'm not saying that is what happened here.

I'm trying to make a simple example as to not confuse anyone.

If you woke up tomorrow and found out that your body was transformed from a man to a woman, would you automatically start to be attracted to men.

Of course not.

You would feel the exact same way as you do now, except your 'parts' would not match your feelings.

I bet it would take you about 30 seconds before deciding that you want to change back.

And she is dealing with it. The way she chooses. Why is your version of how someone should deal the correct one? :nono:

I'd throw that back at you and say why is yours correct?

Formation of identity is a very gray area, there is no factual evidence to say that it is ALL biological, nor is there evidence to say it is ALL nurture/environment.

I read something a while back where a guy had surgery to make him a woman, and after some time of living that way decided he wanted to change back - you can imagine the difficulties! A lot of transgendered people (particularly men changing to women) often suffer because society doesn't accept their new identity - all the surgery in the world won't make some men look like women, meaning they swap one set of problems for another.

I'm not about to judge the guy, I'm sure he must be suffering with a lot of issues, but on the other hand I don't believe that surgery is the only way for such a person to find happiness.

I'm not saying my way is the best way. In fact I don't have a way and never suggested one.

But the person I'm addressing is criticizing Tom/Laura saying she should get mental help and that she is doing the wrong thing.

He also said that Tom/Laura is acting like a coward. (The opposite of courageous). That is what I'm challenging.

His belief is stated that no person who is born with a man's body ever should feel like they should have been born a woman and visa versa.

These are direct statements.

That is what I'm challenging.

I think those statements are rude, ignorant, and probably influenced by some ulterior point of view. (just my guess on that one).


I'm basically calling out a member who IS judging. I take offense to it, and feel he is wrong.

facepollution

catefrances wrote:

oh my do you think people are individuals with their own independent thoughts and hangups? :P

Well I'm sure the guy in my example probably felt '100%' sure that's what he wanted, my point is that if you change your mind, which we as humans all do, it's very difficult to go back.

catefrances wrote:

just cause your example person ended up regretting their decision( and i think they did so cause the support wasnt there) doesnt mean laura will want to revert to being tom in the future... or regret her decision. we just dont know and i think we should support a persons decision, especially when its as difficult a one as this appears to be.

I'm not sure how you would know that they didn't receive the support.

For what it's worth, I think personal identity is an extremely complex subject, and to blindly say that's how somebody is born - the end, is just wrong.

Wilds wrote:

I'm not saying my way is the best way. In fact I don't have a way and never suggested one.

But the person I'm addressing is criticizing Tom/Laura saying she should get mental help and that she is doing the wrong thing.

He also said that Tom/Laura is acting like a coward. (The opposite of courageous). That is what I'm challenging.

His belief is stated that no person who is born with a man's body ever should feel like they should have been born a woman and visa versa.

These are direct statements.

That is what I'm challenging.

I think those statements are rude, ignorant, and probably influenced by some ulterior point of view. (just my guess on that one).


I'm basically calling out a member who IS judging. I take offense to it, and feel he is wrong.

I disagree with the blunt way he shared his opinions, but I don't disagree that the subject should be debated. Yes it's a personal thing and ultimately the individual's decision, but that's not to say people don't wrongly come to that decision, and it's a heavy price to pay if they do.

eeriepadave

he i mean she looks good as a woman. Good for him i mean her In all seriousness I hope all goes well with Tom/Laura. Never a really a fan of their music but if it makes him happy i say go for it.



edit: i was thinking of Panic at the Disco :oops: I do like against me. Thrash Unreal is a great song. Wonder what her bandmates think of it and is she gonna continue with them?

double edit: I just noticed they are going on tour end of may till end of jun. Wonder if the tour is still on?

triple edit: they are opening up for The Cult

youngster

Lots of support for this which is all good I guess. Just a question for the ladies:

When does this become official for you? What I mean is, he just announced it and everyone is like "you go girl" and "yeah sister". So a guy doesn't need surgery first to be accepted as a woman? Like if a dude decides on Friday after work he wants to be a chick and have transgender surgery, goes out for celebratory drinks that same night as himself, can he use the girls room? I'm pretty sure it isn't instant acceptance into womanhood, right?

pjl44

Kudos to Brooklyn Vegan for nodding at what Rolling Stone missed, which was Keith Caputo's recent transition:

http://www.brooklynvegan.com/archives/2 ... _mina.html

I was far more familiar with Keith's music than Tom's, but in both cases I found it to be both jarring and fascinating. As it has in this thread, this topic will always spark a debate. I've seen a couple specials on both men and women who have transitioned, and....ehhhhhhh....you wish the quality-of-life success rate was a little higher. Mina (Keith) seems to have adjusted fine and one would certainly hope the same for Tom. Hopefully they've both psychologically dotted every i and crossed every t, because it's a heavy decision.

awilkins

Jason P wrote:

Having your twigs and berries cut off is punk as punk gets.

Does someone have to go through extensive psychoanalysis before doing this or can you just call a specialist and set up a date?

Extensive psychoanalysis and such.

fiveagainst_1

DewieCox wrote:

Wilds wrote:

How can you not understand that?

There are people born with both organs. They are going to be sexually attracted to whomever they are attracted to.

If surgery is done (say at a young age) to remove the penis, and the person was oriented to be attracted to woman, then that person will probably have wished to become a man.

This is not some type of high physics. It's a fact of being born oriented however you are oriented.

:fp:

Is that what happened here? Was he born with both sets of genitalia and his parents or doctors or whoever makes the call "guessed" wrong? Doesn't seem that way from the stuff I've read.

On one hand I can respect the level of bravery it took to come to his decision, but that's really where it ends. I think it's become far too easy in general for people to do these drastic life changing surgeries. There's gotta be a better way.

Nobody's life is perfect, but there are surely ways to maximize fulfillment without completely altering the hand your dealt.

I'm actually responding to what you wrote earlier about mental treatment. If I'm not mistaken, and I may be, but I believe the long gender reassignment process involves regular psychiatric evaluation to ensure the mental stability of the patient and to ensure that the "final decision" is made with the correct frame of mind. I'm also sure that he/she would have been seeing a mental health professional before making the decision to begin the process. I don't think he/she would have made his/her decision without exploring the causes of their confusion (and possible/probable depression) with a professional beforehand. I doubt that it's just a quick. rash decision.

Then again, I may be wrong.

Also, apologies for the "he/she" stuff. I'm not sure what the protocols are for when something like this happens.

Wilds

facepollution wrote:

I disagree with the blunt way he shared his opinions, but I don't disagree that the subject should be debated. Yes it's a personal thing and ultimately the individual's decision, but that's not to say people don't wrongly come to that decision, and it's a heavy price to pay if they do.

All of those are fair points. I also don't think it is a bad thing to discuss a topic like this. Obviously there is a lot at stake emotionally, physically, and socially, and thus there is plenty of room to debate what the correct path might be.


It is personal and it is absolutely the individuals decision, in my opinion as well.

I'm sure there are ample examples of people who made a decision they regret, both those who made the change and those who didn't.


None of your points are at odd with mine.

Yellow Ledbelly

I can't get over the "she" comments! Ridiculous! Reality is Tom is not Laura. Tom is a dude.

Jason P

Laces out.

aspoonfulweighsaton

DewieCox wrote:

Wilds wrote:

How can you not understand that?

There are people born with both organs. They are going to be sexually attracted to whomever they are attracted to.

If surgery is done (say at a young age) to remove the penis, and the person was oriented to be attracted to woman, then that person will probably have wished to become a man.

This is not some type of high physics. It's a fact of being born oriented however you are oriented.

:fp:

Is that what happened here? Was he born with both sets of genitalia and his parents or doctors or whoever makes the call "guessed" wrong? Doesn't seem that way from the stuff I've read.

On one hand I can respect the level of bravery it took to come to his decision, but that's really where it ends. I think it's become far too easy in general for people to do these drastic life changing surgeries. There's gotta be a better way.

Nobody's life is perfect, but there are surely ways to maximize fulfillment without completely altering the hand your dealt.

This.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about human rights, but there's nothing more equally lazy and selfish than literally trying to change your gender when you weren't legitimately born with both options.

Of The Aggie

I've actually never heard of this guy or his band but his decision to change genders doesn't affect me in the least bit and so if he has thought it through and wants to do it, so be it. I do believe that this is not something you walk into a doctor's office and ask for on Monday and are in surgery on Friday. There is quite a process that I've been told involves actually living as the other gender for a time before the actual surgery takes place. There's plenty of time to back out or rethink your decision.

Claireack

All I can say is good luck to her! It will have been a well considered decision based on years on anguish, not made on a whim, so I just hope the transition goes well for her.

catefrances

aspoonfulweighsaton wrote:

DewieCox wrote:

Wilds wrote:

How can you not understand that?

There are people born with both organs. They are going to be sexually attracted to whomever they are attracted to.

If surgery is done (say at a young age) to remove the penis, and the person was oriented to be attracted to woman, then that person will probably have wished to become a man.

This is not some type of high physics. It's a fact of being born oriented however you are oriented.

:fp:

Is that what happened here? Was he born with both sets of genitalia and his parents or doctors or whoever makes the call "guessed" wrong? Doesn't seem that way from the stuff I've read.

On one hand I can respect the level of bravery it took to come to his decision, but that's really where it ends. I think it's become far too easy in general for people to do these drastic life changing surgeries. There's gotta be a better way.

Nobody's life is perfect, but there are surely ways to maximize fulfillment without completely altering the hand your dealt.

This.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about human rights, but there's nothing more equally lazy and selfish than literally trying to change your gender when you weren't legitimately born with both options.

you do know sex and gender arent the same thing, right?

Wilds

aspoonfulweighsaton wrote:

DewieCox wrote:

Wilds wrote:

How can you not understand that?

There are people born with both organs. They are going to be sexually attracted to whomever they are attracted to.

If surgery is done (say at a young age) to remove the penis, and the person was oriented to be attracted to woman, then that person will probably have wished to become a man.

This is not some type of high physics. It's a fact of being born oriented however you are oriented.

:fp:

Is that what happened here? Was he born with both sets of genitalia and his parents or doctors or whoever makes the call "guessed" wrong? Doesn't seem that way from the stuff I've read.

On one hand I can respect the level of bravery it took to come to his decision, but that's really where it ends. I think it's become far too easy in general for people to do these drastic life changing surgeries. There's gotta be a better way.

Nobody's life is perfect, but there are surely ways to maximize fulfillment without completely altering the hand your dealt.

This.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about human rights, but there's nothing more equally lazy and selfish than literally trying to change your gender when you weren't legitimately born with both options.

Selfish and Lazy?

I guess you really summed up all of the motivation behind anyone who wants to find happiness through this medical procedure.

Thanks for clearing it all up.