There are people born with both organs. They are going to be sexually attracted to whomever they are attracted to.
If surgery is done (say at a young age) to remove the penis, and the person was oriented to be attracted to woman, then that person will probably have wished to become a man.
This is not some type of high physics. It's a fact of being born oriented however you are oriented.
:fp:
Is that what happened here? Was he born with both sets of genitalia and his parents or doctors or whoever makes the call "guessed" wrong? Doesn't seem that way from the stuff I've read.
On one hand I can respect the level of bravery it took to come to his decision, but that's really where it ends. I think it's become far too easy in general for people to do these drastic life changing surgeries. There's gotta be a better way.
Nobody's life is perfect, but there are surely ways to maximize fulfillment without completely altering the hand your dealt.
I'm actually responding to what you wrote earlier about mental treatment. If I'm not mistaken, and I may be, but I believe the long gender reassignment process involves regular psychiatric evaluation to ensure the mental stability of the patient and to ensure that the "final decision" is made with the correct frame of mind. I'm also sure that he/she would have been seeing a mental health professional before making the decision to begin the process. I don't think he/she would have made his/her decision without exploring the causes of their confusion (and possible/probable depression) with a professional beforehand. I doubt that it's just a quick. rash decision.
Then again, I may be wrong.
Also, apologies for the "he/she" stuff. I'm not sure what the protocols are for when something like this happens.
I disagree with the blunt way he shared his opinions, but I don't disagree that the subject should be debated. Yes it's a personal thing and ultimately the individual's decision, but that's not to say people don't wrongly come to that decision, and it's a heavy price to pay if they do.
All of those are fair points. I also don't think it is a bad thing to discuss a topic like this. Obviously there is a lot at stake emotionally, physically, and socially, and thus there is plenty of room to debate what the correct path might be.
It is personal and it is absolutely the individuals decision, in my opinion as well.
I'm sure there are ample examples of people who made a decision they regret, both those who made the change and those who didn't.
There are people born with both organs. They are going to be sexually attracted to whomever they are attracted to.
If surgery is done (say at a young age) to remove the penis, and the person was oriented to be attracted to woman, then that person will probably have wished to become a man.
This is not some type of high physics. It's a fact of being born oriented however you are oriented.
:fp:
Is that what happened here? Was he born with both sets of genitalia and his parents or doctors or whoever makes the call "guessed" wrong? Doesn't seem that way from the stuff I've read.
On one hand I can respect the level of bravery it took to come to his decision, but that's really where it ends. I think it's become far too easy in general for people to do these drastic life changing surgeries. There's gotta be a better way.
Nobody's life is perfect, but there are surely ways to maximize fulfillment without completely altering the hand your dealt.
This.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all about human rights, but there's nothing more equally lazy and selfish than literally trying to change your gender when you weren't legitimately born with both options.
I've actually never heard of this guy or his band but his decision to change genders doesn't affect me in the least bit and so if he has thought it through and wants to do it, so be it. I do believe that this is not something you walk into a doctor's office and ask for on Monday and are in surgery on Friday. There is quite a process that I've been told involves actually living as the other gender for a time before the actual surgery takes place. There's plenty of time to back out or rethink your decision.
All I can say is good luck to her! It will have been a well considered decision based on years on anguish, not made on a whim, so I just hope the transition goes well for her.
There are people born with both organs. They are going to be sexually attracted to whomever they are attracted to.
If surgery is done (say at a young age) to remove the penis, and the person was oriented to be attracted to woman, then that person will probably have wished to become a man.
This is not some type of high physics. It's a fact of being born oriented however you are oriented.
:fp:
Is that what happened here? Was he born with both sets of genitalia and his parents or doctors or whoever makes the call "guessed" wrong? Doesn't seem that way from the stuff I've read.
On one hand I can respect the level of bravery it took to come to his decision, but that's really where it ends. I think it's become far too easy in general for people to do these drastic life changing surgeries. There's gotta be a better way.
Nobody's life is perfect, but there are surely ways to maximize fulfillment without completely altering the hand your dealt.
This.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all about human rights, but there's nothing more equally lazy and selfish than literally trying to change your gender when you weren't legitimately born with both options.
you do know sex and gender arent the same thing, right?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
There are people born with both organs. They are going to be sexually attracted to whomever they are attracted to.
If surgery is done (say at a young age) to remove the penis, and the person was oriented to be attracted to woman, then that person will probably have wished to become a man.
This is not some type of high physics. It's a fact of being born oriented however you are oriented.
:fp:
Is that what happened here? Was he born with both sets of genitalia and his parents or doctors or whoever makes the call "guessed" wrong? Doesn't seem that way from the stuff I've read.
On one hand I can respect the level of bravery it took to come to his decision, but that's really where it ends. I think it's become far too easy in general for people to do these drastic life changing surgeries. There's gotta be a better way.
Nobody's life is perfect, but there are surely ways to maximize fulfillment without completely altering the hand your dealt.
This.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all about human rights, but there's nothing more equally lazy and selfish than literally trying to change your gender when you weren't legitimately born with both options.
Selfish and Lazy?
I guess you really summed up all of the motivation behind anyone who wants to find happiness through this medical procedure.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all about human rights, but there's nothing more equally lazy and selfish than literally trying to change your gender when you weren't legitimately born with both options.
Selfish and Lazy?
I guess you really summed up all of the motivation behind anyone who wants to find happiness through this medical procedure.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all about human rights, but there's nothing more equally lazy and selfish than literally trying to change your gender when you weren't legitimately born with both options.
you do know sex and gender arent the same thing, right?
Just because two words might be defined differently in a dictionary doesn't make them all that different. Your gender is ultimately defined by your sex. If a man "thinks" he should really be a woman, what is he basing that on? Just because someone can afford to slap the face of nature and science doesn't mean they should.
Just because two words might be defined differently in a dictionary doesn't make them all that different. Your gender is ultimately defined by your sex. If a man "thinks" he should really be a woman, what is he basing that on? Just because someone can afford to slap the face of nature and science doesn't mean they should.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all about human rights, but there's nothing more equally lazy and selfish than literally trying to change your gender when you weren't legitimately born with both options.
you do know sex and gender arent the same thing, right?
Just because two words might be defined differently in a dictionary doesn't make them all that different. Your gender is ultimately defined by your sex. If a man "thinks" he should really be a woman, what is he basing that on? Just because someone can afford to slap the face of nature and science doesn't mean they should.
do you have that same stance with couples unable to have children naturally? seems theyve been chosen by nature for whatever reason NOT to be given the ability to procreate yet we slap the face of nature to allow them the means.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
you do know sex and gender arent the same thing, right?
Just because two words might be defined differently in a dictionary doesn't make them all that different. Your gender is ultimately defined by your sex. If a man "thinks" he should really be a woman, what is he basing that on? Just because someone can afford to slap the face of nature and science doesn't mean they should.
do you have that same stance with couples unable to have children naturally? seems theyve been chosen by nature for whatever reason NOT to be given the ability to procreate yet we slap the face of nature to allow them the means.
By that logic we shouldn't treat cancer patients or anyone else that's sick because of the hand they've been dealt. The distinction is using science to help correct things that SHOULD be working properly, whether it be a reproductive system or an immune system or whatever. Someone who thinks they're trapped in the wrong body has a mental condition that should not be treated with a drastic physical response. If you can't learn to love yourself for who you are then there are way more serious issues to deal with.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all about human rights, but there's nothing more equally lazy and selfish than literally trying to change your gender when you weren't legitimately born with both options.
you do know sex and gender arent the same thing, right?
Just because two words might be defined differently in a dictionary doesn't make them all that different. Your gender is ultimately defined by your sex. If a man "thinks" he should really be a woman, what is he basing that on? Just because someone can afford to slap the face of nature and science doesn't mean they should.
Sex is biological, while gender is a social construct.
My 2 cents, again: clearly, Laura has been grappling with some really tough issues and has made a decision about what to do in order for her to be happy and live a fulfilling life. I'm positive it wasn't an easy decision nor one that was made overnight. I can understand how people might not personally understand the motivation behind this decision, but the amount of negative responses in this thread kind of shocks me, to be honest.
Also, about pronouns- I don't think using she is wrong at all- if Laura is identifying as a woman from now on, she'd probably want to be referred to as 'she'.
"Sometimes you find yourself having to put all your faith in no faith."
~not a dude~
2010: MSGx2
2012: Made In America
2013: Pittsburgh, Brooklynx2, Hartford, Baltimore
2014: Leeds, Milton Keynes, Detroit
2015: Global Citizen Festival
2016: Phillyx2, MSGx2, Fenwayx2 2018: Barcelona, Wrigleyx2
Just because two words might be defined differently in a dictionary doesn't make them all that different. Your gender is ultimately defined by your sex. If a man "thinks" he should really be a woman, what is he basing that on? Just because someone can afford to slap the face of nature and science doesn't mean they should.
Seems like a personal choice, does it not?
Well yeah everything is personal choice. Doesn't make it right. People who rob banks and kill people make choices too.
Just because two words might be defined differently in a dictionary doesn't make them all that different. Your gender is ultimately defined by your sex. If a man "thinks" he should really be a woman, what is he basing that on? Just because someone can afford to slap the face of nature and science doesn't mean they should.
do you have that same stance with couples unable to have children naturally? seems theyve been chosen by nature for whatever reason NOT to be given the ability to procreate yet we slap the face of nature to allow them the means.
By that logic we shouldn't treat cancer patients or anyone else that's sick because of the hand they've been dealt. The distinction is using science to help correct things that SHOULD be working properly, whether it be a reproductive system or an immune system or whatever. Someone who thinks they're trapped in the wrong body has a mental condition that should not be treated with a drastic physical response. If you can't learn to love yourself for who you are then there are way more serious issues to deal with.
but for tom he wasnt working properly. something was wrong. he felt it. he knew it. so it needed to be corrected. and it has been. now he as a she gets the chance to be who she feels she truly is. and more power to her for that.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Just because two words might be defined differently in a dictionary doesn't make them all that different. Your gender is ultimately defined by your sex. If a man "thinks" he should really be a woman, what is he basing that on? Just because someone can afford to slap the face of nature and science doesn't mean they should.
Seems like a personal choice, does it not?
Well yeah everything is personal choice. Doesn't make it right. People who rob banks and kill people make choices too.
Because getting a sex change endangers others, right?
Good God, I can't help but wonder what his band mates think of this!!
Their career is taking off and he shoots them ALL in the foot! :shock: :?
against me have been around a while now and if this loses them fans then how big a fan were they then? im interested to see where they go from here tho.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Good God, I can't help but wonder what his band mates think of this!!
Their career is taking off and he shoots them ALL in the foot! :shock: :?
against me have been around a while now and if this loses them fans then how big a fan were they then? im interested to see where they go from here tho.
I think that it will help their career. Alot of people who didn't know who they were before, know who they are now as this story is everywhere. I predict alot more fights at shows though, as drunken douchebags shoot off their mouth and say, well, douchey things. I would personally punch somebody in the face at a show for yelling something negative to Laura. But that's just me :twisted:
you do know sex and gender arent the same thing, right?
I think I understand the point you are making, but I'm not sure how one would go about deciding whether it is their genetic code or social construct that is making them feel a certain way - it could well be one or the other, or a bit of both.
I kind of take issue with the willingness some people have to jump to a biological argument on something so complex. It's as if they think that if they admit that it might not be biologically based, that some how the person is choosing to feel that way, to blame it on nature relinquishes them of any fault. My view is that even if there was no biological basis for transgenderism, a person wouldn't actively choose to feel that way, and clearly they are dealing with a lot of issues, and therefore deserve to be treated with compassion and respect.
I can't help but question the real level of happiness such surgery brings, to put it crudely, is 'the grass always greener on the other side'? And even if someone did regret it do they feign happiness because they fear being ridiculed for what they've done to themself?
Has she started on hormones yet? Cause this will take probably a year or two to be a complete female. Also while hormones will help with voice she'll have to learn how to make it softer (which shouldn't be too hard since she's a singer). I doubt next time you see them on stage (in Jun.) she will be a complete female. She may just start out by dressing up on stage and whatnot.
Although while I know she's a public figure and all wouldn't you think someone would have noticed beforehand? She had to start dressing up when she was a kid. And when she made it big with Against Me! I wonder when she had the time to dress up then? Has she gone out in public before as a woman? I also wonder if there are any pics of him dressed up before she made the announcement. Every transsexual dresses up when they are a kid/youth.
8/28/98- Camden, NJ
10/31/09- Philly
5/21/10- NYC
9/2/12- Philly, PA
7/19/13- Wrigley
10/19/13- Brooklyn, NY
10/21/13- Philly, PA
10/22/13- Philly, PA
10/27/13- Baltimore, MD
4/28/16- Philly, PA
4/29/16- Philly, PA
5/1/16- NYC
5/2/16- NYC
9/2/18- Boston, MA
9/4/18- Boston, MA
9/14/22- Camden, NJ
9/7/24- Philly, PA
9/9/24- Philly, PA
Tres Mts.- 3/23/11- Philly. PA
Eddie Vedder- 6/25/11- Philly, PA
RNDM- 3/9/16- Philly, PA
Good God, I can't help but wonder what his band mates think of this!!
Their career is taking off and he shoots them ALL in the foot! :shock: :?
against me have been around a while now and if this loses them fans then how big a fan were they then? im interested to see where they go from here tho.
I'm a huge fan, but this whole thing is going to change the sound of the band big time. I love Tom's voice and with all of this treatment he is going to go through with this, the voice will obviously change and never be the same. Just happy I got to see them a few times in concert before this.
anyone pick up the issue yet? I was at Target earlier today and saw it there. I thought it came out next week. Haven't read it yet though.
8/28/98- Camden, NJ
10/31/09- Philly
5/21/10- NYC
9/2/12- Philly, PA
7/19/13- Wrigley
10/19/13- Brooklyn, NY
10/21/13- Philly, PA
10/22/13- Philly, PA
10/27/13- Baltimore, MD
4/28/16- Philly, PA
4/29/16- Philly, PA
5/1/16- NYC
5/2/16- NYC
9/2/18- Boston, MA
9/4/18- Boston, MA
9/14/22- Camden, NJ
9/7/24- Philly, PA
9/9/24- Philly, PA
Tres Mts.- 3/23/11- Philly. PA
Eddie Vedder- 6/25/11- Philly, PA
RNDM- 3/9/16- Philly, PA
Comments
I'm actually responding to what you wrote earlier about mental treatment. If I'm not mistaken, and I may be, but I believe the long gender reassignment process involves regular psychiatric evaluation to ensure the mental stability of the patient and to ensure that the "final decision" is made with the correct frame of mind. I'm also sure that he/she would have been seeing a mental health professional before making the decision to begin the process. I don't think he/she would have made his/her decision without exploring the causes of their confusion (and possible/probable depression) with a professional beforehand. I doubt that it's just a quick. rash decision.
Then again, I may be wrong.
Also, apologies for the "he/she" stuff. I'm not sure what the protocols are for when something like this happens.
All of those are fair points. I also don't think it is a bad thing to discuss a topic like this. Obviously there is a lot at stake emotionally, physically, and socially, and thus there is plenty of room to debate what the correct path might be.
It is personal and it is absolutely the individuals decision, in my opinion as well.
I'm sure there are ample examples of people who made a decision they regret, both those who made the change and those who didn't.
None of your points are at odd with mine.
They say every sin is deadly but I believe they may be wrong...I'm guilty of all seven and I don't feel too bad at all
This.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all about human rights, but there's nothing more equally lazy and selfish than literally trying to change your gender when you weren't legitimately born with both options.
you do know sex and gender arent the same thing, right?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Selfish and Lazy?
I guess you really summed up all of the motivation behind anyone who wants to find happiness through this medical procedure.
Thanks for clearing it all up.
Anytime!
Just because two words might be defined differently in a dictionary doesn't make them all that different. Your gender is ultimately defined by your sex. If a man "thinks" he should really be a woman, what is he basing that on? Just because someone can afford to slap the face of nature and science doesn't mean they should.
Seems like a personal choice, does it not?
do you have that same stance with couples unable to have children naturally? seems theyve been chosen by nature for whatever reason NOT to be given the ability to procreate yet we slap the face of nature to allow them the means.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
By that logic we shouldn't treat cancer patients or anyone else that's sick because of the hand they've been dealt. The distinction is using science to help correct things that SHOULD be working properly, whether it be a reproductive system or an immune system or whatever. Someone who thinks they're trapped in the wrong body has a mental condition that should not be treated with a drastic physical response. If you can't learn to love yourself for who you are then there are way more serious issues to deal with.
Sex is biological, while gender is a social construct.
My 2 cents, again: clearly, Laura has been grappling with some really tough issues and has made a decision about what to do in order for her to be happy and live a fulfilling life. I'm positive it wasn't an easy decision nor one that was made overnight. I can understand how people might not personally understand the motivation behind this decision, but the amount of negative responses in this thread kind of shocks me, to be honest.
Also, about pronouns- I don't think using she is wrong at all- if Laura is identifying as a woman from now on, she'd probably want to be referred to as 'she'.
~not a dude~
2010: MSGx2
2012: Made In America
2013: Pittsburgh, Brooklynx2, Hartford, Baltimore
2014: Leeds, Milton Keynes, Detroit
2015: Global Citizen Festival
2016: Phillyx2, MSGx2, Fenwayx2
2018: Barcelona, Wrigleyx2
Well yeah everything is personal choice. Doesn't make it right. People who rob banks and kill people make choices too.
but for tom he wasnt working properly. something was wrong. he felt it. he knew it. so it needed to be corrected. and it has been. now he as a she gets the chance to be who she feels she truly is. and more power to her for that.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Because getting a sex change endangers others, right?
Their career is taking off and he shoots them ALL in the foot! :shock: :?
against me have been around a while now and if this loses them fans then how big a fan were they then? im interested to see where they go from here tho.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Well of course not. Again, people can and will do what they want. This is just my opinion.
I think that it will help their career. Alot of people who didn't know who they were before, know who they are now as this story is everywhere. I predict alot more fights at shows though, as drunken douchebags shoot off their mouth and say, well, douchey things. I would personally punch somebody in the face at a show for yelling something negative to Laura. But that's just me :twisted:
I think I understand the point you are making, but I'm not sure how one would go about deciding whether it is their genetic code or social construct that is making them feel a certain way - it could well be one or the other, or a bit of both.
I kind of take issue with the willingness some people have to jump to a biological argument on something so complex. It's as if they think that if they admit that it might not be biologically based, that some how the person is choosing to feel that way, to blame it on nature relinquishes them of any fault. My view is that even if there was no biological basis for transgenderism, a person wouldn't actively choose to feel that way, and clearly they are dealing with a lot of issues, and therefore deserve to be treated with compassion and respect.
I can't help but question the real level of happiness such surgery brings, to put it crudely, is 'the grass always greener on the other side'? And even if someone did regret it do they feign happiness because they fear being ridiculed for what they've done to themself?
Sammi: Wanna just break up?
Although while I know she's a public figure and all wouldn't you think someone would have noticed beforehand? She had to start dressing up when she was a kid. And when she made it big with Against Me! I wonder when she had the time to dress up then? Has she gone out in public before as a woman? I also wonder if there are any pics of him dressed up before she made the announcement. Every transsexual dresses up when they are a kid/youth.
10/31/09- Philly
5/21/10- NYC
9/2/12- Philly, PA
7/19/13- Wrigley
10/19/13- Brooklyn, NY
10/21/13- Philly, PA
10/22/13- Philly, PA
10/27/13- Baltimore, MD
4/28/16- Philly, PA
4/29/16- Philly, PA
5/1/16- NYC
5/2/16- NYC
9/2/18- Boston, MA
9/4/18- Boston, MA
9/14/22- Camden, NJ
9/7/24- Philly, PA
9/9/24- Philly, PA
Eddie Vedder- 6/25/11- Philly, PA
RNDM- 3/9/16- Philly, PA
I'm a huge fan, but this whole thing is going to change the sound of the band big time. I love Tom's voice and with all of this treatment he is going to go through with this, the voice will obviously change and never be the same. Just happy I got to see them a few times in concert before this.
10/31/09- Philly
5/21/10- NYC
9/2/12- Philly, PA
7/19/13- Wrigley
10/19/13- Brooklyn, NY
10/21/13- Philly, PA
10/22/13- Philly, PA
10/27/13- Baltimore, MD
4/28/16- Philly, PA
4/29/16- Philly, PA
5/1/16- NYC
5/2/16- NYC
9/2/18- Boston, MA
9/4/18- Boston, MA
9/14/22- Camden, NJ
9/7/24- Philly, PA
9/9/24- Philly, PA
Eddie Vedder- 6/25/11- Philly, PA
RNDM- 3/9/16- Philly, PA