Patriotism is curable

Aaron 23

GetALife wrote:

Aaron 23 wrote:

Of course a German is the one starting this thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism#Surveys

:P

I knew this was coming

Problem is IMO that statistics like this don't show if one is honest about his opinion. In germany there is a climate of partially supressed and partially joyous forms of patriotism. In 2006 it started that the Soccer World Championship led to an outburst of patriotic celebrations with publi viewing and flags on the cars and stuff. I believe that the conservative mass media pushed this to a ridiculous extreme. - I do not see the (viewable) lack of patriotism as a problem - IMO it is actually a chance to get beyond patriotism, a chance of social progression. It becomes a problem when people believe that they are not allowed to be patriotic although they'd like to be. People want to identify with something. Patriotism gives a chance to not take individual responsibilty for one's life and identity. You get sucked up by "the mass". I do not feel guilty for what my grandfather did nor not - it was his decision, not mine. That generation gave me a good example of how NOT to live.

That and the second statistic was only taken five years after the first. There's a huge swing from Germany between those stats and they were taken 1.5-2 decades ago, so who knows where the ranks stand now according to the "statistics?"

The news outlets in Germany are very conservative? I have never been, nor would I have any frame of reference to judge the outlets vs the population. It's just very different from the US where most of the news outlets are seen as tilting liberal (with a few exceptions ).

hedonist

I'm not sure what the intent of the thread is...no disrespect, just kind of tough to tell.

If it is about patriotism, my take is - I do love this country and will never feel shameful about or apologize for it. Taking pride in her as it's (been) earned and wanting to keep her safe.

That said, this "patriotism" is made up of concentric circles, for me. It begins with that of my home, the man and animals I live with - our life, our little country, so to speak. Live honestly and honorably, keep safe, make sure we're tended to, that we look after ourselves.

The next circle is my city, then my state, then my country, and so on.

The patriotism I feel isn't to the exclusion of other countries, it's just about personal priorities.

brianlux

hedonist wrote:

I'm not sure what the intent of the thread is...no disrespect, just kind of tough to tell.

If it is about patriotism, my take is - I do love this country and will never feel shameful about or apologize for it. Taking pride in her as it's (been) earned and wanting to keep her safe.

That said, this "patriotism" is made up of concentric circles, for me. It begins with that of my home, the man and animals I live with - our life, our little country, so to speak. Live honestly and honorably, keep safe, make sure we're tended to, that we look after ourselves.

The next circle is my city, then my state, then my country, and so on.

The patriotism I feel isn't to the exclusion of other countries, it's just about personal priorities.

An interesting take on patriotism, Hedonist. If I were to look at patriotism as love of people and place that way I would say my circles include family, specific places in the world I've been to that I love and, like I said earlier, the planet we live on. As for "home"- I'm still looking for that elusive place. I do not love where I live. So I guess my patriotism isn't concentric circles so much as scattered patches that represent the whole: Earth.

As for what this thread is about, I'm guessing it's about the more standard definition of patriotism- love of country. That kind of patriotism I don't understand because I don't understand political boundaries which generally do not follow natural boundaries or bioregions. Why is Lake Tahoe part of the same county that includes foothill chaparral? Or why isn't Canada part of my country since it's all connected? Etc...

GetALife

CH156378 wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4iIt0Ino0w

If Mike did that in a PJ show I attend...I think I'd walk away.

CH156378

GetALife wrote:

CH156378 wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4iIt0Ino0w

If Mike did that in a PJ show I attend...I think I'd walk away.

Considering that it would most likely happen at the end of a show, that really isn't saying much.

javis el errante

GetALife wrote:

CH156378 wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4iIt0Ino0w

If Mike did that in a PJ show I attend...I think I'd walk away.

mike only plays the anthem in US soil... though the RHCP played La Cumparsita (a traditional tango) in their first show in Buenos Aires ever, back in 93...


by the way, here's a view about patriotism, religion and other things advertised on tv...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw0MripVxss

GetALife

hedonist, brianlux's reply answers your question. Maybe we have some language probs here, but I only know patriotism in it's definition of "love/pride for one's country".

I am not unfamiliar with feelings like you describe them. I understand your concept of circles "around" you. I'd not relate to it as patriotism.

GetALife

javis el errante wrote:

GetALife wrote:

CH156378 wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4iIt0Ino0w

If Mike did that in a PJ show I attend...I think I'd walk away.

mike only plays the anthem in US soil... though the RHCP played La Cumparsita (a traditional tango) in their first show in Buenos Aires ever, back in 93...


by the way, here's a view about patriotism, religion and other things advertised on tv...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw0MripVxss

javis, you made my evening! ... I had a long and tiring day, first day at work with heat and that got me hooked, watched (more: listened) a few more videos of George Carlin - he is great!

CH, well, I know what you mean...and javis points out that actually I'd never get to hear that unless I visit an US show (which I'd like to...more: a whole tour! ) ... well, I don't know why you posted the video here...you must have had an intention to comment on the topic here with that. I- like the melody of this tune. I like Mike's playing (in general) and him honoring Hendrix's rendition. I don't like what the national anthems means and that makes the music kinda ugly for me. It is my problem, ok?

GetALife

Aaron 23 wrote:

GetALife wrote:

Aaron 23 wrote:

Of course a German is the one starting this thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism#Surveys

:P

I knew this was coming

Problem is IMO that statistics like this don't show if one is honest about his opinion. In germany there is a climate of partially supressed and partially joyous forms of patriotism. In 2006 it started that the Soccer World Championship led to an outburst of patriotic celebrations with publi viewing and flags on the cars and stuff. I believe that the conservative mass media pushed this to a ridiculous extreme. - I do not see the (viewable) lack of patriotism as a problem - IMO it is actually a chance to get beyond patriotism, a chance of social progression. It becomes a problem when people believe that they are not allowed to be patriotic although they'd like to be. People want to identify with something. Patriotism gives a chance to not take individual responsibilty for one's life and identity. You get sucked up by "the mass". I do not feel guilty for what my grandfather did nor not - it was his decision, not mine. That generation gave me a good example of how NOT to live.

That and the second statistic was only taken five years after the first. There's a huge swing from Germany between those stats and they were taken 1.5-2 decades ago, so who knows where the ranks stand now according to the "statistics?"

The news outlets in Germany are very conservative? I have never been, nor would I have any frame of reference to judge the outlets vs the population. It's just very different from the US where most of the news outlets are seen as tilting liberal (with a few exceptions ).

I thought about certain formats of TV and print media that are very popular. But in general I recognize a lack of a critical point of view towards this form of patriotism in many medial formats. Some people say I am too grim about a thing that they say is just sports. But I'm not that naive. Soccer is a perfect platform (in Germany or Middle Europe - or certain sports in general) for patriotic ideology.

brianlux

javis el errante wrote:

GetALife wrote:

CH156378 wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4iIt0Ino0w

If Mike did that in a PJ show I attend...I think I'd walk away.

mike only plays the anthem in US soil... though the RHCP played La Cumparsita (a traditional tango) in their first show in Buenos Aires ever, back in 93...


by the way, here's a view about patriotism, religion and other things advertised on tv...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw0MripVxss

I guess I'm a "hat's optional" kinda guy! The wisdom of George Carlin! :thumbup:

hedonist

GetALife wrote:

hedonist, brianlux's reply answers your question. Maybe we have some language probs here, but I only know patriotism in it's definition of "love/pride for one's country".

I am not unfamiliar with feelings like you describe them. I understand your concept of circles "around" you. I'd not relate to it as patriotism.

OK, and no language problems - you're doing quite well in that realm. I was unsure what the initial "!!!" represented.

GetALife

hedonist wrote:

GetALife wrote:

hedonist, brianlux's reply answers your question. Maybe we have some language probs here, but I only know patriotism in it's definition of "love/pride for one's country".

I am not unfamiliar with feelings like you describe them. I understand your concept of circles "around" you. I'd not relate to it as patriotism.

OK, and no language problems - you're doing quite well in that realm. I was unsure what the initial "!!!" represented.

I was pissed again by this thing and since PJ are kinda patriotic in a way that I can partially understand and partially don't like I wanted to see how you guys are thinking about it. I needed some good controversial discussion The "!!!" express what I think about patriotism (that is (sarcastically) meant to be curable) - as a sickness.

know1

I think Patriotism is curable. I've been cured of it. Of course, I didn't have a very bad case.

catefrances

patriotism is the refuge of scoundrels... thats what my father always told me.

unsung

Aren't you all confusing patriotism with jingoism?

catefrances

unsung wrote:

Aren't you all confusing patriotism with jingoism?

its not with us the confusion lies.

brianlux

catefrances wrote:

patriotism is the refuge of scoundrels... thats what my father always told me.

Samuel Johnson's famous words... taken a little further by Bob Dylan, "They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings/ steal a little and they throw you in jail/ Steal a lot and then they make you king."

GetALife

know1 wrote:

I think Patriotism is curable. I've been cured of it. Of course, I didn't have a very bad case.

Now that makes me curious. You wanna tell about your story?

GetALife

unsung wrote:

Aren't you all confusing patriotism with jingoism?

You mean the sports of Republicans?

peacefrompaul

I guess I don't view patriotism as dropping bombs or having the government control my life. Mainly I see it as standing up and trying to have my voice heard in some sort of medium to speak my mind and stand up to the government when I believe it is wrong. That is Patriotism to me