keychains in china (animal cruelty)

rollings

I am under the impression that the use of fur has greatly decreased with the increased awareness of animal suffering.

Who are the companies that still buy for use in their products?

I suppose the pressure needs to be on them (and their target customers)

rollings

chadwick wrote:

yeah it is disgusting. and then there are those that point fingers at us (the u.s. and canada) and say we do the same. well....... kinda but no we don't.

i see cows out to pasture. i see hogs in the dirt and mud. sure many hogs are in concrete confinements and many chickens live in tiny cages. it is wrong to make anything live in a tiny wire cage.

"Factory farming" I believe is still a big problem in the United States, or so I thought.
Those are the operations where the animals never see the outdoors or are so extremely confined that they can't even move.

what an existence for each of those animals

chadwick

why does china come off as peaceful and heartwarming with great kind wisdom; what with all the confucius and the like bullshit. from what i see, i see koi goldfish, cherry blossom and asiatic lily gardens. i guess that is my imagination hard at work

Idris

PJ_Soul wrote:

If you think Canada isn't much better than China as far as animal cruelty goes, you don't know what's actually going on in China. For example, it's believed that if meat is naturally injected with adrenaline right before death, then the meat tastes better. So the way they slaughter cats, dogs, and other smaller animals is by:

Taking them out of the crate they're in, stacked one on top of the other with broken limbs, etc, with a metal bar with a clamp at the end. They grab them by the neck with the clamp, and then beat them over the head to but are sure not to render them unconscious; they need to torture them for a while to get that adrenaline going. Then they dip them quickly in boiling water, then skin them alive. Then they throw them in a vat of water so that they drown to death. I've seen numerous videos of this with my own eyes - videos displayed so that people who are against animal torture know what's really going on and might fight to stop it; as a long time donating member of IFAW, I know quite a bit about the atrocities being committed against animals in the world ... So, yeah. I'm pretty sure that's not how we, um, slaughter our cats and dogs in Canada. :? And that kind of thing is not at all comparable to how things are done here in slaughterhouses (though improvements could certainly be made).

As for animal cruelty outside of the food industry... still not comparable. There really aren't any laws in China as far as that goes, whereas here there are. Was it this thread or another where someone posted an article about zoos in China that have made a day at the zoo a study in animal cruelty for children? Where they throw goats and chickens to the lions for fun, and at the glee of school children who are also participating? ... Don't think that's exactly acceptable in North America! I mean, people freak out and people go to jail for dog and cock fighting here. Not in China. So I just don't really understand how anyone can 1) defend China as far as animal rights go, and 2) try and say Canada or the US might be considered just as bad.

We inject our meat with growth hormones, antibiotics whatever else...Have you really seen how we slaughter our animals? How we treat them before? What we feed them?

I'm sorry if the level of cruelty is not high enough for you. But like I said in my post, 'Animal cruelty is animal cruelty', for the most part it's the same for me.

Have you been able to look into our 'genetically modified' animals? You want to talk about 'cruelty to animals'.

Hypocrisy, we go on about China and whatever else...Yea China kills Cat,Dogs, Rabbits,Minks etc, They kill them by smashing them on the ground, clubbing them (Like Canada clubs Seals) and (for example) Guess who buys so much of that Chinese animal cruelty fur? Our Western Countries.

Billion Dollar industry that we (in the west) support.

We act all perfect and clean but in reality we are as dirty as everyone else. I'm not defending China, I'm just not going to praise Canada when we are guilty of the same crime, 'animal cruelty'.
-

Question for you, If China started to Kill Cats and Dogs like we Kill our Cattle/Lamb/Chicken, would you then support it? As our 'killing standards' seems to meet your criteria for what is animal abuse and what's not.

chadwick

yet in canada and the states i would be hard pressed to find a living turtle keychain! why? because we do not subscribe to that kinda horse shit! it is a fad over there. it is their culture. one cannot live correctly w/out having a salamander squirming around inside a plastic rubber keychain enclosure. that is a solid cockhead dipshit move.

chadwick

i want a chinese person keychain. my keychain will weigh in at around 100 pounds/45 kilos. i will grow stronger from lugging it around. i'll call my keychain, "nice fucking keychain"

the nutrients pumped into the water will keep the chinese keychain person alive and well for a lifetime.

Idris

Yea no Turtle Keychain fads for us. We just had weird fads like putting a gold fish in a pair of platform shoes..
Wait, that may be fake. Can anyone confirm that it was done?

Idris

chadwick wrote:

i want a chinese person keychain. my keychain will weigh in at around 100 pounds/45 kilos. i will grow stronger from lugging it around. i'll call my keychain, "nice fucking keychain"

the nutrients pumped into the water will keep the chinese keychain person alive and well for a lifetime.

Is that really what you want?

chadwick

Idris wrote:

chadwick wrote:

i want a chinese person keychain. my keychain will weigh in at around 100 pounds/45 kilos. i will grow stronger from lugging it around. i'll call my keychain, "nice fucking keychain"

the nutrients pumped into the water will keep the chinese keychain person alive and well for a lifetime.

Is that really what you want?

hell no
i do not want that

i am sarcastic. being sarcastic to see a different angle
to make a point to even myself

PJ_Soul

Idris wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

If you think Canada isn't much better than China as far as animal cruelty goes, you don't know what's actually going on in China. For example, it's believed that if meat is naturally injected with adrenaline right before death, then the meat tastes better. So the way they slaughter cats, dogs, and other smaller animals is by:

Taking them out of the crate they're in, stacked one on top of the other with broken limbs, etc, with a metal bar with a clamp at the end. They grab them by the neck with the clamp, and then beat them over the head to but are sure not to render them unconscious; they need to torture them for a while to get that adrenaline going. Then they dip them quickly in boiling water, then skin them alive. Then they throw them in a vat of water so that they drown to death. I've seen numerous videos of this with my own eyes - videos displayed so that people who are against animal torture know what's really going on and might fight to stop it; as a long time donating member of IFAW, I know quite a bit about the atrocities being committed against animals in the world ... So, yeah. I'm pretty sure that's not how we, um, slaughter our cats and dogs in Canada. :? And that kind of thing is not at all comparable to how things are done here in slaughterhouses (though improvements could certainly be made).

As for animal cruelty outside of the food industry... still not comparable. There really aren't any laws in China as far as that goes, whereas here there are. Was it this thread or another where someone posted an article about zoos in China that have made a day at the zoo a study in animal cruelty for children? Where they throw goats and chickens to the lions for fun, and at the glee of school children who are also participating? ... Don't think that's exactly acceptable in North America! I mean, people freak out and people go to jail for dog and cock fighting here. Not in China. So I just don't really understand how anyone can 1) defend China as far as animal rights go, and 2) try and say Canada or the US might be considered just as bad.

We inject our meat with growth hormones, antibiotics whatever else...Have you really seen how we slaughter our animals? How we treat them before? What we feed them?

I'm sorry if the level of cruelty is not high enough for you. But like I said in my post, 'Animal cruelty is animal cruelty', for the most part it's the same for me.

Have you been able to look into our 'genetically modified' animals? You want to talk about 'cruelty to animals'.

Hypocrisy, we go on about China and whatever else...Yea China kills Cat,Dogs, Rabbits,Minks etc, They kill them by smashing them on the ground, clubbing them (Like Canada clubs Seals) and (for example) Guess who buys so much of that Chinese animal cruelty fur? Our Western Countries.

Billion Dollar industry that we (in the west) support.

We act all perfect and clean but in reality we are as dirty as everyone else. I'm not defending China, I'm just not going to praise Canada when we are guilty of the same crime, 'animal cruelty'.
-

Question for you, If China started to Kill Cats and Dogs like we Kill our Cattle/Lamb/Chicken, would you then support it? As our 'killing standards' seems to meet your criteria for what is animal abuse and what's not.

I would not oppose other cultures eating cats and dogs if the caring for and slaughtering were reasonably humane (I don't support it in our own countries because it's not acceptable in our culture to eat them). I actually do use my brain not my heart when it comes to these issues (well, okay, my heart's in it too, but not in any logical realistic way, because that's not helpful when you're looking for actual possible change). I also acknowledge that humans are naturally omnivores. I think that most things come in degrees, that battles need to be picked. So I don't actually think a dog going to slaughter in China as I described is the same as a cow being slaughtered under proper guidelines in Alberta, because the degree of cruelty in one case is a clear form of drawn out torture, whereas there are minimum standards in N. America which do not include mangling, beating, boiling, and drowning anything. If China would follow the same kinds of minimum standards (and didn't have kids at the zoo torture live animals, carry out dog culls in the street by beating them to death with sticks, etc), I would definitely feel much better. I do not support chicken factories, etc. That is cruel, and I support free range chicken and beef. I also don't support genetically modified beef, although I don't see that as animal cruelty. It's bad for humans. The animals don't know the difference. It doesn't actually hurt them, in case you didn't know. Totally separate issue.

I adamantly believe that N. American is head and shoulders above China when it comes to animal rights and attitudes about animals as a person who still supports the existence of a well-regulated meat industry in N. America (at the moment regulation is problematic - major steps need to be taken there for sure - I do NOT think that N. America is beyond reproach at all, contrary to what you seem to think even though I never said it was, but it is clear to me that many other places in the world, including China, are in the dark ages in comparison when it comes to the humane treatment of animals, not only in the meat industry, but on an individual level as well). I assure you, I am involved with this issue and do know where different countries stand as far as animal welfare goes. I keep a balanced head about it, knowing that it is not and cannot be an all or nothing issue, since the meat industry is not going anywhere. If you want to think of it as an all or nothing issue, that's fine of course; it everyone's right to believe that meat eating should be abolished in the name of animal welfare. I'm just not one of them. Get those hormones out of our food though, for sure, not that that really has much to do with animal welfare, but, rather, human welfare.

chadwick

thank you, pj_soul

PJ_Soul

Idris wrote:

chadwick wrote:

i want a chinese person keychain. my keychain will weigh in at around 100 pounds/45 kilos. i will grow stronger from lugging it around. i'll call my keychain, "nice fucking keychain"

the nutrients pumped into the water will keep the chinese keychain person alive and well for a lifetime.

Is that really what you want?

Idris

PJ_Soul wrote:

I would not oppose other cultures eating cats and dogs if the caring for and slaughtering were reasonably humane. So I don't actually think a dog going to slaughter in China as I described is the same as a cow being slaughtered in Alberta, because the degree of cruelty in one case is a clear form of torture, whereas there are minimum standards in N. America which do not include beating, boiling, and drowning anything. If China would follow the same kinds of minimum standards (and didn't have kids at the zoo torture live animals, carry out dog culls in the street by beating them to death with sticks, etc), I would definitely feel much better. . I also don't support genetically modified beef, although I don't see that as animal cruelty. It's bad for humans. The animals don't know the difference. It doesn't actually hurt them, in case you didn't know. Totally separate issue.

Get those hormones out of our food though, for sure, not that that really has anything to do with animal welfare.

It may be a separate issue for you, not me.

When the animals are pumped with the hormones and poor feed, What do you think it does to them? It destroys the animal, sometimes they get so fat, they can't even walk, you know, it takes it away from what is natural. It hurts the quality of the meat too.

http://consumerist.com/2008/09/genetically-engineered-foods-edge-closer-to-dinner-plate-fda-to-develop-ge-rules.html

Personally, I feel that if you GM an animal, it is cruel.
-

btw, what is a "reasonably humane" way to slaughter a cat or dog?

PJ_Soul

Idris wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

I would not oppose other cultures eating cats and dogs if the caring for and slaughtering were reasonably humane. So I don't actually think a dog going to slaughter in China as I described is the same as a cow being slaughtered in Alberta, because the degree of cruelty in one case is a clear form of torture, whereas there are minimum standards in N. America which do not include beating, boiling, and drowning anything. If China would follow the same kinds of minimum standards (and didn't have kids at the zoo torture live animals, carry out dog culls in the street by beating them to death with sticks, etc), I would definitely feel much better. . I also don't support genetically modified beef, although I don't see that as animal cruelty. It's bad for humans. The animals don't know the difference. It doesn't actually hurt them, in case you didn't know. Totally separate issue.

Get those hormones out of our food though, for sure, not that that really has anything to do with animal welfare.

It may be a separate issue for you, not me.

When the animals are pumped with the hormones and poor feed, What do you think it does to them? It destroys the animal, sometimes they get so fat, they can't even walk, you know, it takes it away from what is natural. It hurts the quality of the meat too.

http://consumerist.com/2008/09/genetically-engineered-foods-edge-closer-to-dinner-plate-fda-to-develop-ge-rules.html

Personally, I feel that if you GM an animal, it is cruel.
-

btw, what is a "reasonably humane" way to slaughter a cat or dog?

Alright... It is very rarely the case that they get so fat they can't walk... I don't see it as a point of focus in this issue. But I definitely don't like all the people eating that meat, so we're definitely in agreement when it comes to whether or not animals should be pumped full of hormones.

A humane way to kill any animal for food is to spare it pain as far as possible and make the death as quick as possible (so basically instantaneous). So chop its head off, shoot it through the brain, apparently those electric guns are basically painless... you get the drift. If they could all be given an injection like at the vet that would fabulous, but that's not going to happen for various reasons. Sparing them pain leading up to slaughter is also very important (why I don't like chicken factories and the like), so no stacking animals up in crates and throwing them around and breaking their bones and just letting them stay that way, you know, obvious stuff. Veal is horrible, it shouldn't be legal. I reiterate, all my comments are based on the knowledge that the end of the meat industry is never going to happen, so there is no point in crossing certain lines in this argument.

brianlux

Reading through these posts I'm reminded again of the importance of Temple Grandin's work. I'm not supporting or defending being being vegetarian or a carnivore by mentioning Grandin but rather pointing out that she has worked very hard for many years to make the lives of animals subject to the livestock industry (i.e. meat processing industry) as comfortable and stress free as possible. We can't stop people from eating meat so we owe it to the animals to make their life as comfortable as possible.

I don't think you can do too much to be kind to animals. I take spiders outside rather than kill them. Or let them dance in the living room with me.

PJ_Soul

brianlux wrote:

Reading through these posts I'm reminded again of the importance of Temple Grandin's work. I'm not supporting or defending being being vegetarian or a carnivore by mentioning Grandin but rather pointing out that she has worked very hard for many years to make the lives of animals subject to the livestock industry (i.e. meat processing industry) as comfortable and stress free as possible. We can't stop people from eating meat so we owe it to the animals to make their life as comfortable as possible.

I don't think you can do too much to be kind to animals. I take spiders outside rather than kill them. Or let them dance in the living room with me.

:thumbup: Agreed.... doh, except for the bug thing. I'm too terrified of spiders to pick them up. I have to throw books at them, and even that gives me heart palpitations. My sister once told me to open my mouth and close my eyes so she could give me a big surprise, and she put a live spider in. Sorry spiders. Also, I have no problems killing mosquitoes. They're the assholes of nature and deserve to die.

Byrnzie

PJ_Soul wrote:

Yep. Horrific would be the word, for lack of another word that really describes it. :( Common place in China though.

No, it isn't common place in China. Just as cockfighting isn't common place in the U.S, even though it probably happens somewhere on a daily or weekly basis. But then you clearly know all about China from the comfort of your armchair.

PJ_Soul

Byrnzie wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Yep. Horrific would be the word, for lack of another word that really describes it. :( Common place in China though.

No, it isn't common place in China. Just as cockfighting isn't common place in the U.S, even though it probably happens somewhere on a daily or weekly basis. But then you clearly know all about China from the comfort of your armchair.

I'm sorry, but you seem to be deluded about China ... The mink/fur/meat industry is very very common place in China, and those are their methods. I understand you love China, but I don't understand why you are denying facts about what's wrong with it (as the person who also said that personal freedoms are greater in China than N. America, I don't think there is any doubt that you have blinders on).

Idris

PJ_Soul wrote:

Alright... It is very rarely the case that they get so fat they can't walk... I don't see it as a point of focus in this issue. But I definitely don't like all the people eating that meat, so we're definitely in agreement when it comes to whether or not animals should be pumped full of hormones.

A humane way to kill any animal for food is to spare it pain as far as possible and make the death as quick as possible (so basically instantaneous). So chop its head off, shoot it through the brain, apparently those electric guns are basically painless... you get the drift. If they could all be given an injection like at the vet that would fabulous, but that's not going to happen for various reasons.

I gave weight issues as one example, I mean of course it's not just weight issues, but broken bones that are never treated, major infections etc, much too common. I'm (like you) somewhat involved in research in this area. We have the laws, but our practice or implementation of these laws tend to lack. But that's human nature I guess. (I'm referencing the US more here)

As far as the actual slaughter goes, have you read (you probably have) many studies on different slaughtering methods? Bullet in the brain is really not a way to go, chopping the head off an animal hurts the meat, it sends the body into a 'freeze'. The animal needs to bleed out.

Electric guns? Are you talking about the gun that stuns the animal first before the slaughter or a different electrical gun that kills the animal?

Anyway I'm sorry if I have come across a little harsh or cold in my reply's my bad, I do agree with some of what you have said in this thread.

This is a Chicken Slaughter Vid, (I've seen many of these, this one seems decent?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_S3P0eU0lE&feature=related

Byrnzie

PJ_Soul wrote:

I'm sorry, but you seem to be deluded about China ... The mink/fur/meat industry is very very common place in China, and those are their methods. I understand you love China, but I don't understand why you are denying facts about what's wrong with it (as the person who also said that personal freedoms are greater in China than N. America, I don't think there is any doubt that you have blinders on).

No, It's you that's deluded. You think you know all about China because you've watched a few Youtube clips about animal cruelty. You really need to climb down from your high-horse and get out more.

As for denying anything, I've not denied that cruelty to animals takes place in China. But it's not widespread, as you believe it to be, and dog meat is a rarity in any city here. The majority of Chinese are not cruel to animals in way shape or form.