It's don't know how it works everywhere, but I have to register to vote once (for free), and if I vote regularly I don't have to register again. When I vote, they check my name off the list. If someone else voted using my name, they would know it and have evidence to show it. No ID required. No ID needed.
Same here. I have never been asked to provide an ID to vote. They ask for my name and they flip to a page in a book which has a photocopy of my signature on it, and I have to sign my name under the photocopy of the signature. No ID required to prove that I am who I claim to be.
Where did they get the photocopy of your signature?
Good question, I don't know. From the first time I voted perhaps and there was no photocopy then? Or maybe I had to sign something when I registered to vote? All that was about 20 years ago, so my memory is a little foggy.
Yeah, I was just curious. I didn't know if they grabbed it from a voter registration form, or used the state drivers license./ID database to get the signature.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Get it probably from a driver's license. And That is irrelevant anyway. Let's assume that copying a signature laid out in front of you is good enough proof (which it isn't for every other industry, but let's just assume it is).The potential for fraud isn't someone pretending to be you after you register. The fraud comes from registering under a different name who is not going to be registering themselves (dead, in jail, etc). Which has happened, although reportedly rare since it goes undetected 97% of the time so of course the data suggests it is rare. And since virtually no information is needed to register, if you don't provide a driver's license number (which is optional) when you register a fake name, there is no signature to compare it to. I just don't get why an ID is required to use virtually everything else and that is okay, but becomes too difficult when voting. There is not a valid reason as an adult to not have an ID, and if you chose to not have one to [most likely] avoid legal responsibilities, then that was a choice you made. Despite previous comments, they are incredibly easy and cheap to obtain. Just because it takes weeks to process doesn't mean it's difficult.
Get it probably from a driver's license. And That is irrelevant anyway. Let's assume that copying a signature laid out in front of you is good enough proof (which it isn't for every other industry, but let's just assume it is).The potential for fraud isn't someone pretending to be you after you register. The fraud comes from registering under a different name who is not going to be registering themselves (dead, in jail, etc). Which has happened, although reportedly rare since it goes undetected 97% of the time so of course the data suggests it is rare. And since virtually no information is needed to register, if you don't provide a driver's license number (which is optional) when you register a fake name, there is no signature to compare it to. I just don't get why an ID is required to use virtually everything else and that is okay, but becomes too difficult when voting. There is not a valid reason as an adult to not have an ID, and if you chose to not have one to [most likely] avoid legal responsibilities, then that was a choice you made. Despite previous comments, they are incredibly easy and cheap to obtain. Just because it takes weeks to process doesn't mean it's difficult.
An ID is required to use virtually everything else? What do you mean?
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Get it probably from a driver's license. And That is irrelevant anyway. Let's assume that copying a signature laid out in front of you is good enough proof (which it isn't for every other industry, but let's just assume it is).The potential for fraud isn't someone pretending to be you after you register. The fraud comes from registering under a different name who is not going to be registering themselves (dead, in jail, etc). Which has happened, although reportedly rare since it goes undetected 97% of the time so of course the data suggests it is rare. And since virtually no information is needed to register, if you don't provide a driver's license number (which is optional) when you register a fake name, there is no signature to compare it to. I just don't get why an ID is required to use virtually everything else and that is okay, but becomes too difficult when voting. There is not a valid reason as an adult to not have an ID, and if you chose to not have one to [most likely] avoid legal responsibilities, then that was a choice you made. Despite previous comments, they are incredibly easy and cheap to obtain. Just because it takes weeks to process doesn't mean it's difficult.
An ID is required to use virtually everything else? What do you mean?
Virtually anything that is tied to your name anyway. To cash a check, open a bank account, use health insurance, use a credit card, travel, book a motel, rent a car, drive a car, even renting a movie, having a phone plan, renting an apartment or home, buying anything on layaway or financing, get a loan, getting a tax permit just to name off the top of my head. What type of job does someone have if they don't need an ID? Many jobs require direct deposit. If not they write you a check, how do you cash it? Or are you getting paid under the table to avoid something? Or maybe you run your own business and sell art on the sidewalk-you need a tax license for that.
Get it probably from a driver's license. And That is irrelevant anyway. Let's assume that copying a signature laid out in front of you is good enough proof (which it isn't for every other industry, but let's just assume it is).The potential for fraud isn't someone pretending to be you after you register. The fraud comes from registering under a different name who is not going to be registering themselves (dead, in jail, etc). Which has happened, although reportedly rare since it goes undetected 97% of the time so of course the data suggests it is rare. And since virtually no information is needed to register, if you don't provide a driver's license number (which is optional) when you register a fake name, there is no signature to compare it to. I just don't get why an ID is required to use virtually everything else and that is okay, but becomes too difficult when voting. There is not a valid reason as an adult to not have an ID, and if you chose to not have one to [most likely] avoid legal responsibilities, then that was a choice you made. Despite previous comments, they are incredibly easy and cheap to obtain. Just because it takes weeks to process doesn't mean it's difficult.
An ID is required to use virtually everything else? What do you mean?
Virtually anything that is tied to your name anyway. To cash a check, open a bank account, use health insurance, use a credit card, travel, book a motel, rent a car, drive a car, even renting a movie, having a phone plan, renting an apartment or home, buying anything on layaway or financing, get a loan, getting a tax permit just to name off the top of my head. What type of job does someone have if they don't need an ID? Many jobs require direct deposit. If not they write you a check, how do you cash it? Or are you getting paid under the table to avoid something? Or maybe you run your own business and sell art on the sidewalk-you need a tax license for that.
I guess this is where I don't understand the push back regarding requiring IDs to vote. If someone doesn't have and can't acquire an ID, how do they even function in today's society at all? It seems to me they would have bigger problems to worry about than whether or not they can vote. I'm not passionate one way or the other about voter ID laws. I don't believe voter fraud is a huge problem, but I don't believe an ID requirement is an onerous barrier either, at least for anyone who wishes to function as a member of society. If they don't wish to function that way, why are they interested in voting? Perhaps if there are voter ID laws, there could be provisions within the laws to enable people under a certain income level to get free or subsidized IDs. If they're low income and on government assistance already, how do they get their food stamps / EBT cards without some form of ID? IDs are required for just about everything these days. People passionately arguing against requiring IDs to vote, are also arguing that the ID-less person should continue to function without access to all services and benefits provided to those with IDs. Instead of enabling their non-participation in society, perhaps we should be encouraging them to jump on board.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Get it probably from a driver's license. And That is irrelevant anyway. Let's assume that copying a signature laid out in front of you is good enough proof (which it isn't for every other industry, but let's just assume it is).The potential for fraud isn't someone pretending to be you after you register. The fraud comes from registering under a different name who is not going to be registering themselves (dead, in jail, etc). Which has happened, although reportedly rare since it goes undetected 97% of the time so of course the data suggests it is rare. And since virtually no information is needed to register, if you don't provide a driver's license number (which is optional) when you register a fake name, there is no signature to compare it to. I just don't get why an ID is required to use virtually everything else and that is okay, but becomes too difficult when voting. There is not a valid reason as an adult to not have an ID, and if you chose to not have one to [most likely] avoid legal responsibilities, then that was a choice you made. Despite previous comments, they are incredibly easy and cheap to obtain. Just because it takes weeks to process doesn't mean it's difficult.
An ID is required to use virtually everything else? What do you mean?
Virtually anything that is tied to your name anyway. To cash a check, open a bank account, use health insurance, use a credit card, travel, book a motel, rent a car, drive a car, even renting a movie, having a phone plan, renting an apartment or home, buying anything on layaway or financing, get a loan, getting a tax permit just to name off the top of my head. What type of job does someone have if they don't need an ID? Many jobs require direct deposit. If not they write you a check, how do you cash it? Or are you getting paid under the table to avoid something? Or maybe you run your own business and sell art on the sidewalk-you need a tax license for that.
Yeah, but those are all services and related to purchases and money. I don't see why voting and any of your examples should have anything to do with one another. Homeless people who panhandle are eligible voters. People who live off the grid are eligible voters. People who sleep on friends' couches, those who got any of the things you're talking about and THEN lost their ID or let it expire.... again, 25,000,000 people do in fact manage to survive without a license. It's not impossible. Even for me, since I live car-free, the only time I've needed to use my ID since I last left the country was to pick up concert tickets at will call, and those few glorious times when I got ID'd at the liquor store.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Get it probably from a driver's license. And That is irrelevant anyway. Let's assume that copying a signature laid out in front of you is good enough proof (which it isn't for every other industry, but let's just assume it is).The potential for fraud isn't someone pretending to be you after you register. The fraud comes from registering under a different name who is not going to be registering themselves (dead, in jail, etc). Which has happened, although reportedly rare since it goes undetected 97% of the time so of course the data suggests it is rare. And since virtually no information is needed to register, if you don't provide a driver's license number (which is optional) when you register a fake name, there is no signature to compare it to. I just don't get why an ID is required to use virtually everything else and that is okay, but becomes too difficult when voting. There is not a valid reason as an adult to not have an ID, and if you chose to not have one to [most likely] avoid legal responsibilities, then that was a choice you made. Despite previous comments, they are incredibly easy and cheap to obtain. Just because it takes weeks to process doesn't mean it's difficult.
An ID is required to use virtually everything else? What do you mean?
Virtually anything that is tied to your name anyway. To cash a check, open a bank account, use health insurance, use a credit card, travel, book a motel, rent a car, drive a car, even renting a movie, having a phone plan, renting an apartment or home, buying anything on layaway or financing, get a loan, getting a tax permit just to name off the top of my head. What type of job does someone have if they don't need an ID? Many jobs require direct deposit. If not they write you a check, how do you cash it? Or are you getting paid under the table to avoid something? Or maybe you run your own business and sell art on the sidewalk-you need a tax license for that.
I guess this is where I don't understand the push back regarding requiring IDs to vote. If someone doesn't have and can't acquire an ID, how do they even function in today's society at all? It seems to me they would have bigger problems to worry about than whether or not they can vote. I'm not passionate one way or the other about voter ID laws. I don't believe voter fraud is a huge problem, but I don't believe an ID requirement is an onerous barrier either, at least for anyone who wishes to function as a member of society. If they don't wish to function that way, why are they interested in voting? Perhaps if there are voter ID laws, there could be provisions within the laws to enable people under a certain income level to get free or subsidized IDs. If they're low income and on government assistance already, how do they get their food stamps / EBT cards without some form of ID? IDs are required for just about everything these days. People passionately arguing against requiring IDs to vote, are also arguing that the ID-less person should continue to function without access to all services and benefits provided to those with IDs. Instead of enabling their non-participation in society, perhaps we should be encouraging them to jump on board.
Forgive me if I've got the wrong person, but didn't you say in another thread that you pretty much reject government intervention? That you lean somewhat Libertarian? Nothing very libertarian about forcing people to pay for government issued ID. 25,000,000 without ID... and who gives a fuck what their circumstances are so that they don't have any??? What difference does it make why?? They are still citizens. I also think it's very presumptive to assume that anyone without an ID is basically a useless, nonfunctioning member of society.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Get it probably from a driver's license. And That is irrelevant anyway. Let's assume that copying a signature laid out in front of you is good enough proof (which it isn't for every other industry, but let's just assume it is).The potential for fraud isn't someone pretending to be you after you register. The fraud comes from registering under a different name who is not going to be registering themselves (dead, in jail, etc). Which has happened, although reportedly rare since it goes undetected 97% of the time so of course the data suggests it is rare. And since virtually no information is needed to register, if you don't provide a driver's license number (which is optional) when you register a fake name, there is no signature to compare it to. I just don't get why an ID is required to use virtually everything else and that is okay, but becomes too difficult when voting. There is not a valid reason as an adult to not have an ID, and if you chose to not have one to [most likely] avoid legal responsibilities, then that was a choice you made. Despite previous comments, they are incredibly easy and cheap to obtain. Just because it takes weeks to process doesn't mean it's difficult.
An ID is required to use virtually everything else? What do you mean?
Virtually anything that is tied to your name anyway. To cash a check, open a bank account, use health insurance, use a credit card, travel, book a motel, rent a car, drive a car, even renting a movie, having a phone plan, renting an apartment or home, buying anything on layaway or financing, get a loan, getting a tax permit just to name off the top of my head. What type of job does someone have if they don't need an ID? Many jobs require direct deposit. If not they write you a check, how do you cash it? Or are you getting paid under the table to avoid something? Or maybe you run your own business and sell art on the sidewalk-you need a tax license for that.
I guess this is where I don't understand the push back regarding requiring IDs to vote. If someone doesn't have and can't acquire an ID, how do they even function in today's society at all? It seems to me they would have bigger problems to worry about than whether or not they can vote. I'm not passionate one way or the other about voter ID laws. I don't believe voter fraud is a huge problem, but I don't believe an ID requirement is an onerous barrier either, at least for anyone who wishes to function as a member of society. If they don't wish to function that way, why are they interested in voting? Perhaps if there are voter ID laws, there could be provisions within the laws to enable people under a certain income level to get free or subsidized IDs. If they're low income and on government assistance already, how do they get their food stamps / EBT cards without some form of ID? IDs are required for just about everything these days. People passionately arguing against requiring IDs to vote, are also arguing that the ID-less person should continue to function without access to all services and benefits provided to those with IDs. Instead of enabling their non-participation in society, perhaps we should be encouraging them to jump on board.
Forgive me if I've got the wrong person, but didn't you say in another thread that you pretty much reject government intervention? That you lean somewhat Libertarian? Nothing very libertarian about forcing people to pay for government issued ID. 25,000,000 without ID... and who gives a fuck what their circumstances are so that they don't have any??? What difference does it make why?? They are still citizens. I also think it's very presumptive to assume that anyone without an ID is basically a useless, nonfunctioning member of society.
Well, I am libertarian leaning. But I'm also rational, and understand that there are things required of us to function as a society. I'm not saying that anyone without an ID is a non-functioning member of society. I am saying that someone without an ID is not on a traditional path, and don't understand why they'd want to vote anyway. If they don't have a bank account, don't have a job, don't have a car, don't get government assistance, etc... then why vote? Sounds like they've either checked out, or aren't interested in joining in the first place. If it is strictly a financial issue that keeps them from having an ID, why don't we have provisions to assist them in obtaining one? Not just for voting, but for participating in the real world. It would make their lives easier all the way around. Again, I'm not trying to be exclusionary. I'm more interested in helping them and bringing them into the fold. It is the people arguing against needing an ID that are enabling them to continue living without access to the benefits at their disposal if only they had an ID.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Yeah, but those are all services and related to purchases and money. I don't see why voting and any of your examples should have anything to do with one another. Homeless people who panhandle are eligible voters. People who live off the grid are eligible voters. People who sleep on friends' couches, those who got any of the things you're talking about and THEN lost their ID or let it expire.... again, 25,000,000 people do in fact manage to survive without a license. It's not impossible. Even for me, since I live car-free, the only time I've needed to use my ID since I last left the country was to pick up concert tickets at will call, and those few glorious times when I got ID'd at the liquor store.
Avoided it the first time around, let's try again.
Get it probably from a driver's license. And That is irrelevant anyway. Let's assume that copying a signature laid out in front of you is good enough proof (which it isn't for every other industry, but let's just assume it is).The potential for fraud isn't someone pretending to be you after you register. The fraud comes from registering under a different name who is not going to be registering themselves (dead, in jail, etc). Which has happened, although reportedly rare since it goes undetected 97% of the time so of course the data suggests it is rare. And since virtually no information is needed to register, if you don't provide a driver's license number (which is optional) when you register a fake name, there is no signature to compare it to. I just don't get why an ID is required to use virtually everything else and that is okay, but becomes too difficult when voting. There is not a valid reason as an adult to not have an ID, and if you chose to not have one to [most likely] avoid legal responsibilities, then that was a choice you made. Despite previous comments, they are incredibly easy and cheap to obtain. Just because it takes weeks to process doesn't mean it's difficult.
An ID is required to use virtually everything else? What do you mean?
Virtually anything that is tied to your name anyway. To cash a check, open a bank account, use health insurance, use a credit card, travel, book a motel, rent a car, drive a car, even renting a movie, having a phone plan, renting an apartment or home, buying anything on layaway or financing, get a loan, getting a tax permit just to name off the top of my head. What type of job does someone have if they don't need an ID? Many jobs require direct deposit. If not they write you a check, how do you cash it? Or are you getting paid under the table to avoid something? Or maybe you run your own business and sell art on the sidewalk-you need a tax license for that.
I guess this is where I don't understand the push back regarding requiring IDs to vote. If someone doesn't have and can't acquire an ID, how do they even function in today's society at all? It seems to me they would have bigger problems to worry about than whether or not they can vote. I'm not passionate one way or the other about voter ID laws. I don't believe voter fraud is a huge problem, but I don't believe an ID requirement is an onerous barrier either, at least for anyone who wishes to function as a member of society. If they don't wish to function that way, why are they interested in voting? Perhaps if there are voter ID laws, there could be provisions within the laws to enable people under a certain income level to get free or subsidized IDs. If they're low income and on government assistance already, how do they get their food stamps / EBT cards without some form of ID? IDs are required for just about everything these days. People passionately arguing against requiring IDs to vote, are also arguing that the ID-less person should continue to function without access to all services and benefits provided to those with IDs. Instead of enabling their non-participation in society, perhaps we should be encouraging them to jump on board.
Forgive me if I've got the wrong person, but didn't you say in another thread that you pretty much reject government intervention? That you lean somewhat Libertarian? Nothing very libertarian about forcing people to pay for government issued ID. 25,000,000 without ID... and who gives a fuck what their circumstances are so that they don't have any??? What difference does it make why?? They are still citizens. I also think it's very presumptive to assume that anyone without an ID is basically a useless, nonfunctioning member of society.
Well, I am libertarian leaning. But I'm also rational, and understand that there are things required of us to function as a society. I'm not saying that anyone without an ID is a non-functioning member of society. I am saying that someone without an ID is not on a traditional path, and don't understand why they'd want to vote anyway. If they don't have a bank account, don't have a job, don't have a car, don't get government assistance, etc... then why vote? Sounds like they've either checked out, or aren't interested in joining in the first place. If it is strictly a financial issue that keeps them from having an ID, why don't we have provisions to assist them in obtaining one? Not just for voting, but for participating in the real world. It would make their lives easier all the way around. Again, I'm not trying to be exclusionary. I'm more interested in helping them and bringing them into the fold. It is the people arguing against needing an ID that are enabling them to continue living without access to the benefits at their disposal if only they had an ID.
Well you don't need ID to maintain a bank account that you set up at a time when you did have ID. Same goes for many, many things, including having a job and property ownership. I mean, when was the last time your employer asked you for ID? I personally haven't been asked to produce ID for my employer ever, not even when I was hired. But even if they did ask for that when I was hired, I've had the same employer for 15 years. and they have been depositing my pay into the same bank account that I had when I was hired too. I could have allowed all of my ID to expire during that time. Just because someone doesn't have ID it doesn't mean they never had any in their life. But again, either way, I really don't see why it matters. I don't see why anyone gives a shit how difficult it might make life if someone doesn't have ID. Maybe they don't want ID. Maybe they can't afford to get it (I think it's pretty fucked up that the government would demand that people have ID to be eligible voters and then charge money for the ID). Maybe they are too lazy to bother getting it. Maybe they don't want to the government to have any info on them. None of those reasons seem to be anyone's business IMO. They are still citizens. Seriously, I could very easily live indefinitely without ID right now. As I said, the only time I've needed it was when I've left the country and when some idiot thought I might not be old enough to buy booze, and when I picked up concert tix. I don't even need it to vote. I am already registered, and have been for years and years. As long as I file my taxes, the government NEVER has to see my ID unless I'm going through customs. Even at the polls, if memory serves, they just look at the registered voter card that I am mailed before an election.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Well you don't need ID to maintain a bank account that you set up at a time when you did have ID. Same goes for many, many things, including having a job and property ownership. I mean, when was the last time your employer asked you for ID. I personally haven't been asked to produce ID for my employer ever, not even when I was hired. But even if they did ask for that when I was hired, I've had the same employer for 15 years. and they have been depositing my pay into the same bank account that I had when I was hired too. I could have allowed all of my ID to expire during that time. Just because someone doesn't have ID it doesn't mean they never had any in their life. But again, either way, I really don't see why it matters. I don't see why anyone gives a shit how difficult it might make life if someone doesn't have ID. Maybe they don't want ID. Maybe they can't afford to get it (I think it's pretty fucked up that the government would demand that people have ID to be eligible voters and then charge money for the ID). Maybe they are too lazy to bother getting it. Maybe they don't want to the government to have any info on them. None of those reasons seem to be anyone's business IMO. They are still citizens. Seriously, I could very easily live indefinitely without ID right now. As I said, the only time I've needed it was when I've left the country and when some idiot thought I might not be old enough to buy booze, and when I picked up concert tix. I don't even need it to vote. I am already registered, and have been for years and years. As long as I pay my taxes, the government NEVER has to see my ID unless I'm going through customs.
In the US, employers are required to file an I-9 form verifying that they're legally authorized to work in this country. I hire many people and am required to complete this before they can start. They have streamlined it so that the filing is done electronically and can instantly verify your eligibility. The key to this eligibility is the ability to produce identification. Here are the requirements:
Documentation for Proof of Identity and/or Employment Authorization The employee who attests the person's employment eligibility must also provide the proof so that the person is authorized to work in the United States. A variety of ID are acceptable for I-9 purposes. The employee must supply either:
One document that establishes both identity and employment eligibility (on List A on the I-9) OR One document that establishes identity (on List B ), together with another document that establishes employment eligibility (on List C) All documentation must be unexpired as of April 3, 2009 List A Documents that may be used under "List A" of the I-9 form to establish both identity and employment eligibility include:
An unexpired U.S. Passport A U.S. Passport Card A Permanent Resident Card (often called a "green card") or Alien Registration Receipt Card with photograph An unexpired Temporary Resident Card An unexpired foreign passport with an I-551 stamp, or with Form I-94 (For the certain alien who is authorized to work with restrictions. The person should also attach the document(s) which indicate(s) an unexpired employment authorization) An unexpired Employment Authorization Document issued by the United States Department of Homeland Security that includes a photograph (Form I-766) An unexpired Employment Authorization Card List B Documents that may be used under "List B" of the I-9 to establish identity include:
Driver's license or I.D. card issued by a U.S. state or outlying possession of the U.S., provided it contains a photograph or identifying information such as name, date of birth, gender, height, eye color and address. Federal or state I.D. card provided it contains a photograph or identifying information such as name, date of birth, gender, height, eye color and address. School I.D. with photograph U.S. Armed Services identification card or draft record Voter Registration Card U.S. Coast Guard Merchant Mariner Card Native American tribal document Driver's license issued by a Canadian government authority For individuals under the age of 18 only, the following documents may be used to establish identity:
School record or report card Clinic, doctor or hospital record Day-care or nursery school record Employees who supply an item from List B must also supply an item from List C
List C Documents that may be used under "List C" of the I-9 to establish employment eligibility include:
A U.S. Social Security card issued by the Social Security Administration unless it indicates one of the following: NOT VALID FOR EMPLOYMENT (generally issued to non-immigrant aliens unauthorized to work) VALID FOR WORK ONLY WITH INS AUTHORIZATION VALID FOR WORK ONLY WITH DHS AUTHORIZATION A birth certificate issued by the U.S. State Department (Form FS-545 or Form DS-1350) Original or certified copy of a birth certificate from the U.S. or an outlying possession of the U.S., bearing an official seal A Certificate of U.S. Citizenship (Form N-560 or N-561) A Certificate of Naturalization (Form N-550 or N-570) Native American tribal document U.S. Citizen I.D. Card (Form I-197) An I.D. Card for the use of a Resident Citizen in the United States (Form I-179) An unexpired employment authorization card issued by the Dept. of Homeland Security (other than those included on List A) U.S. citizens who have lost their social security card can apply for a duplicate at the Social Security Administration. List C documents should be accompanied with List B to prove the identity and the employment authorization.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Yeah, that's all fine, but again, most of those without ID weren't ALWAYS without ID. So unless you have periodic ID checks, you could easily have employees who had ID when they started working for you, but don't have ID now.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Yeah, that's all fine, but again, most of those without ID weren't ALWAYS without ID. So unless you have periodic ID checks, you could easily have employees who had ID when they started working for you, but don't have ID now.
Well, you're an outlier as far as employment tenure goes. At least here, employment tenure averages about 4 years or so. So most people who work here in the U.S. have to acquire and maintain an ID.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Yeah, that's all fine, but again, most of those without ID weren't ALWAYS without ID. So unless you have periodic ID checks, you could easily have employees who had ID when they started working for you, but don't have ID now.
Well, you're an outlier as far as employment tenure goes. At least here, employment tenure averages about 4 years or so. So most people who work here in the U.S. have to acquire and maintain an ID.
Or work under the table. Or keep their job long term (it may not be the norm, but there are still million upon millions who keep the same employer for many years or for their entire career). Or they don't work. Perhaps they are stay at home moms or .... there are all kinds of scenarios. I think the point is that these people without it ARE outliers. But there are still 25,000,000 of them. That's the point. With something like a max of 100 suspected (most of which are just clerical errors) and about 12 proven voter fraud cases for each US state (on average) per presidential election, so that's around 600 confirmed cases nation-wide, barring 25,000,000 to prevent that miniscule number of possible fraud cases is basically the definition of insanity.... or voter suppression (ding ding!).
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Yeah, that's all fine, but again, most of those without ID weren't ALWAYS without ID. So unless you have periodic ID checks, you could easily have employees who had ID when they started working for you, but don't have ID now.
Well, you're an outlier as far as employment tenure goes. At least here, employment tenure averages about 4 years or so. So most people who work here in the U.S. have to acquire and maintain an ID.
Or work under the table. Or keep their job long term (it may not be the norm, but there are still million upon millions who keep the same employer for many years or for their entire career). Or they don't work. Perhaps they are stay at home moms or .... there are all kinds of scenarios. I think the point is that these people without it ARE outliers. But there are still 25,000,000 of them. That's the point. With something like a max of 100 suspected (most of which are just clerical errors) and about 12 proven voter fraud cases for each US state (on average) per presidential election, so that's around 600 confirmed cases nation-wide, barring 25,000,000 to prevent that miniscule number of possible fraud cases is basically the definition of insanity.... or voter suppression (ding ding!).
Sure. I already said that I don't believe voter fraud is a real issue. My only issue in this thread is why some seem to be fighting so hard to keep people from being encouraged to get IDs. If they're unable to get an ID for financial reasons, let's help them. If it is because they don't care or don't want one, then I don't care if they are denied basic social services, employment, the ability to bank, the ability to vote, etc... I think anybody who wants to participate in this society should probably have an ID. I don't think they should be required to have an ID, but they should know that they're limiting themselves by not having one. That's it. Don't want an ID? Cool. Don't bank, don't vote, don't drive, don't have a job, etc... Want an ID but can't afford it? Cool, we'll help subsidize or provide one at no cost as a way to welcome you as a member of mainstream society. If you don't want to join mainstream society, please don't expect mainstream society to support you or your choices. That's what society is, isn't it? A community with some sort of order or organization.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Get it probably from a driver's license. And That is irrelevant anyway. Let's assume that copying a signature laid out in front of you is good enough proof (which it isn't for every other industry, but let's just assume it is).The potential for fraud isn't someone pretending to be you after you register. The fraud comes from registering under a different name who is not going to be registering themselves (dead, in jail, etc). Which has happened, although reportedly rare since it goes undetected 97% of the time so of course the data suggests it is rare. And since virtually no information is needed to register, if you don't provide a driver's license number (which is optional) when you register a fake name, there is no signature to compare it to. I just don't get why an ID is required to use virtually everything else and that is okay, but becomes too difficult when voting. There is not a valid reason as an adult to not have an ID, and if you chose to not have one to [most likely] avoid legal responsibilities, then that was a choice you made. Despite previous comments, they are incredibly easy and cheap to obtain. Just because it takes weeks to process doesn't mean it's difficult.
An ID is required to use virtually everything else? What do you mean?
Virtually anything that is tied to your name anyway. To cash a check, open a bank account, use health insurance, use a credit card, travel, book a motel, rent a car, drive a car, even renting a movie, having a phone plan, renting an apartment or home, buying anything on layaway or financing, get a loan, getting a tax permit just to name off the top of my head. What type of job does someone have if they don't need an ID? Many jobs require direct deposit. If not they write you a check, how do you cash it? Or are you getting paid under the table to avoid something? Or maybe you run your own business and sell art on the sidewalk-you need a tax license for that.
Yeah, but those are all services and related to purchases and money. I don't see why voting and any of your examples should have anything to do with one another. Homeless people who panhandle are eligible voters. People who live off the grid are eligible voters. People who sleep on friends' couches, those who got any of the things you're talking about and THEN lost their ID or let it expire.... again, 25,000,000 people do in fact manage to survive without a license. It's not impossible. Even for me, since I live car-free, the only time I've needed to use my ID since I last left the country was to pick up concert tickets at will call, and those few glorious times when I got ID'd at the liquor store.
Not all my examples were purchases, and some of the purchase are necessities, like leasing a home. And even if you haven't had to show your ID recently, I bet you regularly use things that required an ID, like utilities-can get that without a credit card or bank account. A lot of places that require an ID have an alternative if you lose it, like showing 2 utility bills or car registration or something. I know I'll get backlash for this comment, but if you're that loser couch surfer among friends and wasting the days away not even looking for a job, mooching off everyone, maybe you're not ready to participate in the adult decision making process (not you literally, just clarifying). There may be 25 million without a driver's license, but most will have another form of ID, so that number is exaggerated. But I will also admit I don't believe voter fraud is a huge deal either, so I'm not sure why I keep defending the ID thing. My wife will be the first to tell anyone I get fired up the most over things that are either of little concern. This may be one of those times.
Yeah, that's all fine, but again, most of those without ID weren't ALWAYS without ID. So unless you have periodic ID checks, you could easily have employees who had ID when they started working for you, but don't have ID now.
Well, you're an outlier as far as employment tenure goes. At least here, employment tenure averages about 4 years or so. So most people who work here in the U.S. have to acquire and maintain an ID.
Or work under the table. Or keep their job long term (it may not be the norm, but there are still million upon millions who keep the same employer for many years or for their entire career). Or they don't work. Perhaps they are stay at home moms or .... there are all kinds of scenarios. I think the point is that these people without it ARE outliers. But there are still 25,000,000 of them. That's the point. With something like a max of 100 suspected (most of which are just clerical errors) and about 12 proven voter fraud cases for each US state (on average) per presidential election, so that's around 600 confirmed cases nation-wide, barring 25,000,000 to prevent that miniscule number of possible fraud cases is basically the definition of insanity.... or voter suppression (ding ding!).
Sure. I already said that I don't believe voter fraud is a real issue. My only issue in this thread is why some seem to be fighting so hard to keep people from being encouraged to get IDs. If they're unable to get an ID for financial reasons, let's help them. If it is because they don't care or don't want one, then I don't care if they are denied basic social services, employment, the ability to bank, the ability to vote, etc... I think anybody who wants to participate in this society should probably have an ID. I don't think they should be required to have an ID, but they should know that they're limiting themselves by not having one. That's it. Don't want an ID? Cool. Don't bank, don't vote, don't drive, don't have a job, etc... Want an ID but can't afford it? Cool, we'll help subsidize or provide one at no cost as a way to welcome you as a member of mainstream society. If you don't want to join mainstream society, please don't expect mainstream society to support you or your choices. That's what society is, isn't it? A community with some sort of order or organization.
But who are we to tell someone who doesn't want or care about ID that they can't vote?? I think that is a moot point, and I don't think a single person in my country or yours should be denied the right to vote if they aren't in prison. All the other things - bank account, etc etc - are irrelevant to the conversation. Voting and having a bank account, a job, a home, access to social services, etc, aren't linked in any way. The only requirement is that you're a citizen and aren't in prison or on parole. ID reform acts only to suppress votes, since there isn't a voter fraud problem to begin with. Voter suppression is the only purpose behind it.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Yeah, that's all fine, but again, most of those without ID weren't ALWAYS without ID. So unless you have periodic ID checks, you could easily have employees who had ID when they started working for you, but don't have ID now.
Well, you're an outlier as far as employment tenure goes. At least here, employment tenure averages about 4 years or so. So most people who work here in the U.S. have to acquire and maintain an ID.
Or work under the table. Or keep their job long term (it may not be the norm, but there are still million upon millions who keep the same employer for many years or for their entire career). Or they don't work. Perhaps they are stay at home moms or .... there are all kinds of scenarios. I think the point is that these people without it ARE outliers. But there are still 25,000,000 of them. That's the point. With something like a max of 100 suspected (most of which are just clerical errors) and about 12 proven voter fraud cases for each US state (on average) per presidential election, so that's around 600 confirmed cases nation-wide, barring 25,000,000 to prevent that miniscule number of possible fraud cases is basically the definition of insanity.... or voter suppression (ding ding!).
Sure. I already said that I don't believe voter fraud is a real issue. My only issue in this thread is why some seem to be fighting so hard to keep people from being encouraged to get IDs. If they're unable to get an ID for financial reasons, let's help them. If it is because they don't care or don't want one, then I don't care if they are denied basic social services, employment, the ability to bank, the ability to vote, etc... I think anybody who wants to participate in this society should probably have an ID. I don't think they should be required to have an ID, but they should know that they're limiting themselves by not having one. That's it. Don't want an ID? Cool. Don't bank, don't vote, don't drive, don't have a job, etc... Want an ID but can't afford it? Cool, we'll help subsidize or provide one at no cost as a way to welcome you as a member of mainstream society. If you don't want to join mainstream society, please don't expect mainstream society to support you or your choices. That's what society is, isn't it? A community with some sort of order or organization.
But who are we to tell someone who doesn't want or care about ID that they can't vote?? I think that is a moot point, and I don't think a single person in my country or yours should be denied the right to vote if they aren't in prison. All the other things - bank account, etc etc - are irrelevant to the conversation. Voting and having a bank account, a job, a home, access to social services, etc, aren't linked in any way. The only requirement is that you're a citizen and aren't in prison or on parole. ID reform acts only to suppress votes, since there isn't a voter fraud problem to begin with. Voter suppression is the only purpose behind it.
I have a couple of responses. 1. All of those other things are linked in my mind. All of those other things are functions of someone participating in our social experiment. If one isn't interested in being part of that, why are they interested in voting for rules, regulations and representatives of that society? 2. Is voter registration synonymous with voter suppression? Why require voter registration at all, then? Why not just give anyone showing up to any polling place a ballot? If registration is required, but no ID required to register, then why have them register? I guess I still don't understand the push back. I can see a lot of cons for not having an ID, but don't see many benefits. And I'll restate one more time, if they aren't able to afford the ID, let's create programs that will provide them. I'm not trying to be exclusionary. I'm trying to be rational. You're just not going to get very far here without an ID. Voting should be the least of their concerns if they are either intentionally going off the grid, or have no interest in actually being a part of their community. Voting doesn't happen in a vacuum. Voting is a result of someone understanding the issues facing their community, making decisions on them, and casting a vote to affect change in their community or society.
We're probably at an impasse. And that's ok. I'm not trying to convince you to change. I just honestly don't understand how one advocates for not having or using ID. It's a simple, basic no-brainer to me.
You see Voter ID laws as voter suppression. I could make the claim that voter registration is voter suppression, since as far as I can tell registration numbers in states that enacted voter ID laws really didn't change dramatically one way or the other. People who want to vote generally can. People who don't, don't. There are exceptions, but looking at the big picture, just as there isn't meaningful voter fraud where IDs aren't required, I don't believe there is meaningful voter suppression numbers where IDs are required.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Yes, we're at an impasse. FYI, I'm not advocating for not having ID at all. Not even a little bit. I am only advocating for those who don't have any (doesn't matter why) to vote. I don't care why they vote either. Why they might vote even if they don't "participate in in society" (a term I oppose strongly, especially when it comes to those who happen to not have ID, since there are so many reasons they might not) is absolutely none our business. They have the right to vote. Whether they actually will or not is completely irrelevant and I don't think should a part of the thinking process with this issue.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Yes, we're at an impasse. FYI, I'm not advocating for not having ID at all. Not even a little bit. I am only advocating for those who don't have any (doesn't matter why) to vote. I don't care why they vote either. Why they might vote even if they don't "participate in in society" (a term I oppose strongly, especially when it comes to those who happen to not have ID, since there are so many reasons they might not) is absolutely none our business. They have the right to vote. Whether they actually will or not is completely irrelevant and I don't think should a part of the thinking process with this issue.
Well, I'm conflicted because I want to completely agree with what you just typed. And I'll also point out that we've probably been arguing opposite sides from what we should be based on our differing political philosophies. I should be the one advocating against mandatory government licensing and identification given my libertarian leanings, and you should probably have no issue with larger government programs requiring registration. But my rational side just doesn't understand how one can function without an ID in today's climate given all of the restrictions placed upon us, especially these days of beefed up security measures everywhere you look. Anyway, it was a healthy discussion with no name-calling, so kudos!
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
As one who's been following this thread, I'd like to offer kudos to you both as well.
Fuck, we need more of this type of interaction, and not just in this forum.
I do get where each of you are coming from, though I'm more on the jeff path. Just makes sense to me.
Either way, good food for thought from you two, within my own thought processes.
Yes, we're at an impasse. FYI, I'm not advocating for not having ID at all. Not even a little bit. I am only advocating for those who don't have any (doesn't matter why) to vote. I don't care why they vote either. Why they might vote even if they don't "participate in in society" (a term I oppose strongly, especially when it comes to those who happen to not have ID, since there are so many reasons they might not) is absolutely none our business. They have the right to vote. Whether they actually will or not is completely irrelevant and I don't think should a part of the thinking process with this issue.
Well, I'm conflicted because I want to completely agree with what you just typed. And I'll also point out that we've probably been arguing opposite sides from what we should be based on our differing political philosophies. I should be the one advocating against mandatory government licensing and identification given my libertarian leanings, and you should probably have no issue with larger government programs requiring registration. But my rational side just doesn't understand how one can function without an ID in today's climate given all of the restrictions placed upon us, especially these days of beefed up security measures everywhere you look. Anyway, it was a healthy discussion with no name-calling, so kudos!
Haha, yes kudos to us both. Lol, good point about us arguing from what seems like the other's general political viewpoint. That's totally true!
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Comments
And That is irrelevant anyway.
Let's assume that copying a signature laid out in front of you is good enough proof (which it isn't for every other industry, but let's just assume it is).The potential for fraud isn't someone pretending to be you after you register. The fraud comes from registering under a different name who is not going to be registering themselves (dead, in jail, etc). Which has happened, although reportedly rare since it goes undetected 97% of the time so of course the data suggests it is rare.
And since virtually no information is needed to register, if you don't provide a driver's license number (which is optional) when you register a fake name, there is no signature to compare it to.
I just don't get why an ID is required to use virtually everything else and that is okay, but becomes too difficult when voting. There is not a valid reason as an adult to not have an ID, and if you chose to not have one to [most likely] avoid legal responsibilities, then that was a choice you made. Despite previous comments, they are incredibly easy and cheap to obtain. Just because it takes weeks to process doesn't mean it's difficult.
To cash a check, open a bank account, use health insurance, use a credit card, travel, book a motel, rent a car, drive a car, even renting a movie, having a phone plan, renting an apartment or home, buying anything on layaway or financing, get a loan, getting a tax permit just to name off the top of my head.
What type of job does someone have if they don't need an ID? Many jobs require direct deposit. If not they write you a check, how do you cash it? Or are you getting paid under the table to avoid something? Or maybe you run your own business and sell art on the sidewalk-you need a tax license for that.
Seriously, I could very easily live indefinitely without ID right now. As I said, the only time I've needed it was when I've left the country and when some idiot thought I might not be old enough to buy booze, and when I picked up concert tix. I don't even need it to vote. I am already registered, and have been for years and years. As long as I file my taxes, the government NEVER has to see my ID unless I'm going through customs. Even at the polls, if memory serves, they just look at the registered voter card that I am mailed before an election.
A lot of places that require an ID have an alternative if you lose it, like showing 2 utility bills or car registration or something.
I know I'll get backlash for this comment, but if you're that loser couch surfer among friends and wasting the days away not even looking for a job, mooching off everyone, maybe you're not ready to participate in the adult decision making process (not you literally, just clarifying).
There may be 25 million without a driver's license, but most will have another form of ID, so that number is exaggerated.
But I will also admit I don't believe voter fraud is a huge deal either, so I'm not sure why I keep defending the ID thing.
My wife will be the first to tell anyone I get fired up the most over things that are either of little concern. This may be one of those times.
We're probably at an impasse. And that's ok. I'm not trying to convince you to change. I just honestly don't understand how one advocates for not having or using ID. It's a simple, basic no-brainer to me.
You see Voter ID laws as voter suppression. I could make the claim that voter registration is voter suppression, since as far as I can tell registration numbers in states that enacted voter ID laws really didn't change dramatically one way or the other. People who want to vote generally can. People who don't, don't. There are exceptions, but looking at the big picture, just as there isn't meaningful voter fraud where IDs aren't required, I don't believe there is meaningful voter suppression numbers where IDs are required.
Fuck, we need more of this type of interaction, and not just in this forum.
I do get where each of you are coming from, though I'm more on the jeff path. Just makes sense to me.
Either way, good food for thought from you two, within my own thought processes.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/31/politics/supreme-court-north-carolina-voter-id/index.html
"...I changed by not changing at all..."