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Afghanistan

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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 22,730
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:

    Wow.  20 years of progress being undone in weeks.  The Afghan military and political leaders must have just rolled over.  
    They did.  They were bribed and capitulated. It was always a house of cards. 

    I'm guessing you read the same WaPo article as I did.
    Yeah.  No surprise. 

    I find it interesting that the Republicans are calling it Biden's "Saigon moment".  I say.. I hope so. That would be great.  If the fall taught us anything it's that the war was for nothing and losing S. Vietnam had no long term geopolitical consequences.  Vietnam is now a fairly modern,  trading partner.  The ramification was the human toll, of which we were just as responsible. 

    Of course what the GOP isnt saying is this was Biden honoring Fucksticks decision only with a delayed timeline by a few months.

    This would have occured no matter who was CiC....
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  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 9,390
    What more could NATO do.  Wasn’t the cost to the US 2.2 trillion.  And how many died.

    it was a bullshit war.  I’m sure special forces could have found bin laden…

    Canadian Afghan vets feel frustrated that it cost many lives, injuries and PTSD and it worse than before…


  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 9,390
    mrussel1 said:

    Wow.  20 years of progress being undone in weeks.  The Afghan military and political leaders must have just rolled over.  
    They did.  They were bribed and capitulated. It was always a house of cards. 
    It will become a terror training country…
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 22,770
    mrussel1 said:

    Wow.  20 years of progress being undone in weeks.  The Afghan military and political leaders must have just rolled over.  
    They did.  They were bribed and capitulated. It was always a house of cards. 
    It will become a terror training country…
    Maybe... so you think the US should have stayed there indefinitely to keep it from becoming a terror training country?
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 22,730
    mrussel1 said:

    Wow.  20 years of progress being undone in weeks.  The Afghan military and political leaders must have just rolled over.  
    They did.  They were bribed and capitulated. It was always a house of cards. 
    It will become a terror training country…
    will become?
    pssst it has been for about 30 years....
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 13,659

    So would the U.S. have had to stay 30-60 more years to change the hearts and minds of the next generations?

    It makes me appreciate our service people even more.  It is tough to stand up and have the will to fight and Afghanistan's military did not. 

  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 9,390
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:

    Wow.  20 years of progress being undone in weeks.  The Afghan military and political leaders must have just rolled over.  
    They did.  They were bribed and capitulated. It was always a house of cards. 
    It will become a terror training country…
    Maybe... so you think the US should have stayed there indefinitely to keep it from becoming a terror training country?
    Nope.  Afghans didn’t even fight.  I agree with POTUS, they have to fight for their country.

    I never agreed with the war.
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 9,390
    mickeyrat said:
    mrussel1 said:

    Wow.  20 years of progress being undone in weeks.  The Afghan military and political leaders must have just rolled over.  
    They did.  They were bribed and capitulated. It was always a house of cards. 
    It will become a terror training country…
    will become?
    pssst it has been for about 30 years....
    Gets worse…
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 22,770
    The only people who have a case to criticize Biden on this are the neocons like Cheney, Cotton, and the like.  They were against any drawdown.  But they've been wrong about everything anyway.  
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 28,853
    The big winner is China.
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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 22,770
    The big winner is China.
    Maybe.  But I don't think China will make the investments into infrastructure if the Taliban are also hiding and supporting terrorism.  It will be one or the other.  China would like it as a client state,  but that might not be terrible for us. 
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 9,390

  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 22,770

    1. How does Stefan Simanowitz know who is in the chopper?  That photo was in the Post and it said a Chinook flies around the embassy while diplomatic vehicles exit the compound.  Surely Snowden did a little research before representing this, right?

    2. What's it matter?  Someone tell me why we shouldn't pray that Afghanistan turns into Vietnam post US exit.  Please, make that case.  
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 11,123
    edited August 16
    Damned if we do damned if we don’t.  We shouldn’t be there…but we can’t leave
  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 6,603
    mrussel1 said:

    1. How does Stefan Simanowitz know who is in the chopper?  That photo was in the Post and it said a Chinook flies around the embassy while diplomatic vehicles exit the compound.  Surely Snowden did a little research before representing this, right?

    2. What's it matter?  Someone tell me why we shouldn't pray that Afghanistan turns into Vietnam post US exit.  Please, make that case.  
    The Vietnam comparisons are about the humiliating exit not Afghanistan's future economic prospects.

    This was an inevitability regardless of when we left. It should have been done sooner but this is a dramatic failure stretching across 4 administrations. I see people trying to dose out the blame by President, but that to me is missing the point.

    In the short term, the things I don't understand about this exit plan are:

    - How did we not secure safe exits and visas for the Afghans who worked with us?
    - If the vehicles and weapons we left behind are still operable, what the fuck?
    - If we didn't effectively shred/wipe any intelligence, what the fuck?
    - Why have we not seen President Biden on camera, even briefly, addressing the public?

    2 and 3 are open questions to me. I've read conflicting reports. Now that the lid has been blown off, the stories about where trillions of dollars have gone over the last 20 years will be vomit-inducing.
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 22,730
    belongs here too.

    Letter From An American....

    August 15, 2021 (Sunday)
     
    Today, in Afghanistan, Taliban fighters took over the presidential palace in Kabul, the country’s capital, while the president of the U.S.-backed Afghan government, Ashraf Ghani, fled to Tajikistan. The U.S. and many other countries are rushing to evacuate their diplomatic personnel and allies from the country, although Russia is not, as the Taliban has guaranteed their safety. As of tonight, all U.S. embassy personnel are at the Kabul airport, which is currently being protected by the U.S. military.
     
    Over almost 20 years in Afghanistan, the U.S. has lost 2448 troops and personnel. Another 20,722 Americans have been wounded. The mission has cost more than a trillion dollars.
     
    The U.S. invaded Afghanistan a month after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001—which killed almost 3000 people in New York, Virginia, and Pennsylvania—to go after al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, who had been behind the attack. The Islamic fundamentalist group that had controlled Afghanistan since 1996, the Taliban, was sheltering him along with other al Qaeda militants. Joined by an international coalition, the U.S. drove the Taliban from power but failed to capture bin Laden, and the War on Terror became a general drive against non-state actors, usually Muslims, who threatened the U.S.
     
    In 2003, President George W. Bush launched another war, this one in Iraq. As the U.S. got bogged down in Iraq, members of the Taliban regrouped in Afghanistan as an insurgent military force that attacked the Afghan government the U.S. had propped up in their place. By 2005, the Taliban had grown powerful enough that officials in the Bush administration worried that the U.S. could fail to undermine them.
     
    President Barack Obama focused again on Afghanistan. In December 2009 he launched a 33,000 troop surge into Afghanistan, bringing the total U.S. deployment there to about 100,000 troops, with an additional 40,000 troops from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). In 2011, U.S. Special Forces found bin Laden living in Abbottabad, Pakistan, and killed him in a raid. The next month, Obama announced that he would begin bringing troops home and that the U.S. would leave Afghanistan by 2014. Violence immediately increased, and a new joint security agreement between the U.S. and the Afghan government allowed the U.S. to stay and continue to train Afghan soldiers.
     
    By 2018 the Taliban, which is well funded by foreign investors, mining, opium, and a sophisticated tax system operated in the shadow of the official government, had reestablished itself in more than two thirds of Afghanistan. Americans were tired of the seemingly endless war and were eager for it to end.
     
    To end a military commitment that journalist Dexter Filkins dubbed the “forever war,” former president Donald Trump sent officials to negotiate with the Taliban, and in February 2020 the U.S. agreed to withdraw all U.S. troops, along with NATO allies, by May 1, so long as the Taliban stopped attacking U.S. troops and cut ties with terrorists.
     
    The U.S. did not include the Afghan government in the talks that led to the deal, leaving it to negotiate its own terms with the Taliban after the U.S. had already announced it was heading home. Observers at the time were concerned that the U.S. withdrawal would essentially allow the Taliban to retake control of the country, where the previous 20 years had permitted the reestablishment of stability and women’s rights. Indeed, almost immediately, Taliban militants began an assassination campaign against Afghan leaders, although they did not kill any American soldiers after the deal was signed.
     
    Meanwhile, by announcing their intentions, American officials took pressure off the Taliban to negotiate with Afghan leaders. The Pentagon’s inspector general noted in February that “The Taliban intends to stall the negotiations until U.S. and coalition forces withdraw so that it can seek a decisive military victory over the Afghan government.”

    Hoping to win voters with this deal to end the war, the Trump administration celebrated the agreement. In September, Donald Trump Jr. tweeted, “A vote for Joe Biden is a vote for forever war in the Middle East. A vote for Donald Trump is a vote to finally bring our troops home.” Then–Secretary of State Mike Pompeo suggested the U.S. would have “zero” troops left in Afghanistan by spring 2021.
     
    When he was Obama’s vice president, Joe Biden had made it no secret that he was not comfortable with the seemingly endless engagement in Afghanistan. By the time he took office as president in January 2021, he was also boxed in by Trump’s agreement. In April, Biden announced that he would honor Trump’s agreement—“an agreement made by the United States government…means something,” Biden said—and he would begin a final withdrawal on May 1, 2021, to be finished before September 11, the twentieth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks.

    In July, 73% of Americans agreed that the U.S. should withdraw.
     
    On July 8, Biden announced that the withdrawal was taking place quicker than planned and that the military mission of the U.S. in Afghanistan would end on August 31. He said the U.S. had accomplished what it set out to do in Afghanistan—kill bin Laden and destroy a haven for international terrorists—and had no business continuing to influence the future of the Afghan people. Together with NATO, the U.S. had trained and equipped nearly 300,000 members of the current Afghan military, as well as many more who are no longer serving, with all the tools, training, and equipment of any modern military. While we will continue to support that military, he said, it is time for the Afghan people to “drive toward a future that the Afghan people want and they deserve.”
     
    For those asking that we stay just a little longer, especially in light of the fact the U.S. has lost no personnel since Trump cut the deal with the Taliban, he asked them to recognize that reneging on that deal would start casualties again. And he asked, “Would you send your own son or daughter?”
     
    Biden insisted the U.S. would continue to support the Afghan government and said the U.S. was working to bring to the U.S. Afghan translators whose lives are in danger for working with U.S. forces. He also seemed to acknowledge the extraordinary danger facing Afghan women and girls under the rule of the Taliban as it continues to sweep through the country. And yet, he said, “I will not send another generation of Americans to war in Afghanistan with no reasonable expectation of achieving a different outcome.”

    Instead of using troops, Biden has focused on cutting off the flow of money to terrorists through financial and economic sanctions. (Today, a U.S. official told CNN that the “vast majority” of the assets of Afghanistan’s central bank are not held in Afghanistan and that the U.S. will freeze whatever assets are in the U.S.)
     
    As the U.S. pulled out of the country, the Afghan military simply melted away. Regional capitals fell to the Taliban with little resistance, and Kabul today fell with similar ease. Just five weeks after Biden’s July speech, the Afghan president has left the country and the Taliban is in power.

    Already, Republicans are trying to blame the Taliban’s success in Afghanistan on Biden, ignoring former president Trump’s insistence that Biden speed up the exit because “getting out of Afghanistan is a wonderful and positive thing to do.” So eager are Republicans to rewrite history that they are literally erasing it. Tonight, Washington Post reporter Dave Weigel noticed that the Republican National Committee has scrubbed from its website a section celebrating the deal the Trump administration cut with the Taliban and praising Trump for taking “the lead in peace talks as he signed a historic peace agreement with the Taliban in Afghanistan, which would end America’s longest war.”   

    Representative Adam Kinzinger (R-IL), who served in Afghanistan and who opposed Biden’s plan for withdrawal, has been highlighting the past statements of pro-exit Republicans who are now attacking the president. “Do not let my party preten[d] to be outraged by this,” he tweeted. “Both the [Republicans] and [Democrats] failed here. Time for Americans to put their country over their party.”

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  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 9,390
    mrussel1 said:

    1. How does Stefan Simanowitz know who is in the chopper?  That photo was in the Post and it said a Chinook flies around the embassy while diplomatic vehicles exit the compound.  Surely Snowden did a little research before representing this, right?

    2. What's it matter?  Someone tell me why we shouldn't pray that Afghanistan turns into Vietnam post US exit.  Please, make that case.  
    The tweet was about the similar exits.  Yes we can only hope Afghanistan can be successful…but we know that will never happen, the Taliban are criminal thugs, and are a bunch of religious nut bars who should have been  put down so they can see their maker, are they in for a surprise. All those military age men run to airport, those that ran all throughout the country and if at least had just picked a weapon and fought, then just maybe things could be different.  It was a waste of lives, NATO lives.  I just hope all NATO countries get ALL their people out and the afghans who helped get out…
  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 15,131
    It's sad how much of a complete and utter failure the past 20 years in Afghanistan was. Failure by both parties, all four presidents, and countless strategists. Billions (maybe trillions?) of dollars spent, thousands of dead American soldiers, and millions of dollars worth of equipment (armored cars, weapons, etc.) that we paid for so that the shitty Afghan military can defend themselves is now in the hands of the Taliban. 
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  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 9,390
    They had a fellow on CNN who said there are 12 large weapon cache that the US supplied the Afghan army that is presumably in Taliban hands…why would the military not send in the Air Force to eliminate those weapons…a real clusterfuck.
  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 15,131
    This is where things are at currently....Afghans so desperate to get out of there that they're trying to hold onto a plane for dear life. You can imagine the outcome. God bless these poor people that live in these sort of countries and have to deal with situations like this....


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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 22,730
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 9,390

    Biden's botched Afghan exit is a disaster at home and abroad long in the making


    https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/16/politics/afghanistan-joe-biden-donald-trump-kabul-politics/index.html
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 12,241
    mrussel1 said:
    The only people who have a case to criticize Biden on this are the neocons like Cheney, Cotton, and the like.  They were against any drawdown.  But they've been wrong about everything anyway.  
    yep....it's crazy
    Remember the Thomas Nine!! (10/02/2018)

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  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 12,241
    How do the last of the troops get out?  I assume there is some diplomacy going on with the Taliban....kind of a "don't fuck with us or we will be back with a vengeance".

    Of course they might be willing to call our bluff.
    Remember the Thomas Nine!! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley #1, Wrigley #2, Boston #1, Boston #2
    2020: Oakland1, Oakland2:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 22,730
    How do the last of the troops get out?  I assume there is some diplomacy going on with the Taliban....kind of a "don't fuck with us or we will be back with a vengeance".

    Of course they might be willing to call our bluff.

    dont think so. after fuckstick inked that deal last year , no troops have been harmed.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 22,770
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:

    1. How does Stefan Simanowitz know who is in the chopper?  That photo was in the Post and it said a Chinook flies around the embassy while diplomatic vehicles exit the compound.  Surely Snowden did a little research before representing this, right?

    2. What's it matter?  Someone tell me why we shouldn't pray that Afghanistan turns into Vietnam post US exit.  Please, make that case.  
    The Vietnam comparisons are about the humiliating exit not Afghanistan's future economic prospects.

    This was an inevitability regardless of when we left. It should have been done sooner but this is a dramatic failure stretching across 4 administrations. I see people trying to dose out the blame by President, but that to me is missing the point.

    In the short term, the things I don't understand about this exit plan are:

    - How did we not secure safe exits and visas for the Afghans who worked with us?
    - If the vehicles and weapons we left behind are still operable, what the fuck?
    - If we didn't effectively shred/wipe any intelligence, what the fuck?
    - Why have we not seen President Biden on camera, even briefly, addressing the public?

    2 and 3 are open questions to me. I've read conflicting reports. Now that the lid has been blown off, the stories about where trillions of dollars have gone over the last 20 years will be vomit-inducing.
    A failed strategy is going to lead to failed operational execution every time. These are good questions.  I know I read the shredding was in process or done.  I'm not overly concerned about vehicles and weapons.  I think we left those behind in Syria as well.  I think the exit visas had been going for a while, and many Afghans are already here.  
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin LouisPosts: 19,047
    MAGA 2015: "OUT OF AFGHANISTAN!!!!!"

    MAGA 2016: "OUT OF AFGHANISTAN!!!!!"

    MAGA 2017: "OUT OF AFGHANISTAN!!!!!"

    MAGA 2018: "OUT OF AFGHANISTAN!!!!!"

    MAGA 2019: "OUT OF AFGHANISTAN!!!!!"

    MAGA 2020: "OUT OF AFGHANISTAN!!!!!"

    MAGA 2021: "STAY IN AFGHANISTAN!!!!!"
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway

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  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin LouisPosts: 19,047
    it is interesting to note how all of the facebook and twitter epidemiologists in my feed have over 3 days become foreign policy experts as well.
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 22,770
    it is interesting to note how all of the facebook and twitter epidemiologists in my feed have over 3 days become foreign policy experts as well.
    Are these the same ones that understand the inner workings of voting machines and state law?
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin LouisPosts: 19,047
    we all knew this was how it was going to end.

    we had the sophie's choice of staying indefinitely or getting out now.

    trump made the deal, biden is getting everyone out per the deal.

    we wasted 20 years, trillions of dollars and a bunch of blood for nothing.

    the question is, will the us government learn from this?

    we can't even get covid under control in the south of this country. how the hell are we going to build a nation halfway across the world when we were not even wanted there?
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
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