it's pretty obvious that not all catholics are evil people and not all catholic priests are child molesters but it comes down to this with me as it relates to the catholic church:
* the mass cover ups and the KNOWN willingness of the upper tier authorities in the church to allow molesters to continue to rape boys is unforgivable and to this date have not been addressed - this isn't about a few rogue priests - it's about the sacrifice of these children in order to protect the name of the catholic church
* the continual oppressive position the catholic church has on the rest of society ... it's one thing to practice your religion as you see fit ... have no problem with that ... but the catholic church's insistence in interfering with other people's lives is abusive ... see gay marriage and pro choice and birth control ...
* the unwillingness of people of catholic faith to hold their leaders accountable to their actions ... only catholic people can fix the catholic church ... so, while most continue to want to believe that these sex abuse cases are isolated incidents and hope they will go away ... all we are going to get is more and more people suffering ...
what...you touched some kid...fine fine...we'll ship a couple states over....they'll never know...now don't do it again.
it happens over and over and over in the catholic church. multiple BK's for it.
81 is now off the air
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81
Needing a ride to Forest Hills and a ounce of weed. Please inquire within. Thanks. Or not. Posts: 58,276
yet we had a 50 page thread of people ripping Joe Paterno for harboring one child molester, yet practicing catholics find us 'ignorant' for calling out an organization that harbors thousands of child molesters.
it's the funny thing...you have one person and yes a coverup...and people are all over school and a person that wasn't involved, and sent it to his superiors....
yet, here we have an institution with litteraly thousands of cases....and we barely hear a peep....and we don't hear anything from the most vehement denoucers of the PSU case.
it's the funny thing...you have one person and yes a coverup...and people are all over school and a person that wasn't involved, and sent it to his superiors....
yet, here we have an institution with litteraly thousands of cases....and we barely hear a peep....and we don't hear anything from the most vehement denoucers of the PSU case.
They can't say anything bad about the Catholic church, are you kidding? If they do, they're going to hell!!!
Alright maybe that's a bit juvenile but great point. At what point are people going to get upset enough to finally put a stop to this behavior? No, not all churches are bad and not every priest is guilty of this. But the ones that are are not being stopped. The church keeps sweeping everything under the rug and is not being held accountable. I've got many other personal reasons as to why I broke with the Catholic church...and I'm not condemning people that are followers...but they've gotta start opening up their eyes.
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christianity is straight up dangerous. i know of no other reason for why millions have been executed, tortured, molested, and terrorized. this grand scheme is only in the name of power and money.
"Hyperboles are exaggerations to create emphasis or effect. As a literary device, hyperbole is often used in poetry, and is frequently encountered in casual speech. An example of hyperbole is: "The bag weighed a ton."[2] Hyperbole helps to make the point that the bag was very heavy, although it is not probable that it would actually weigh a ton." Source: Wiki
Everyone, if you want to have a discussion about this issue, please do so with reasoned debate and stick to the topic. It could be interesting or it could get locked. Thank you.
A lot of people feel this way lost in this manner, besides paradoxically Jesus was a heretic.
How to Fight The Man
By DAVID BROOKS
Published: February 2, 2012
A few weeks ago, a 22-year-old man named Jefferson Bethke produced a video called “Why I Hate Religion, but Love Jesus.” The video shows Bethke standing in a courtyard rhyming about the purity of the teachings of Jesus and the hypocrisy of the church. Jesus preaches healing, surrender and love, he argues, but religion is rigid, phony and stale. “Jesus came to abolish religion,” Bethke insists. “Religion puts you in bondage, but Jesus sets you free.”
The video went viral. As of Thursday, it had acquired more than 18 million hits on YouTube. It speaks for many young believers who feel close to God but not to the church. It represents the passionate voice of those who think their institutions lack integrity — not just the religious ones, but the political and corporate ones, too.
Right away, many older theologians began critiquing Bethke’s statements. A blogger named Kevin DeYoung pointed out, for example, that it is biblically inaccurate to say that Jesus hated religion. In fact, Jesus preached a religious doctrine, prescribed rituals and worshiped in a temple.
Bethke responded in a way that was humble, earnest and gracious, and that generally spoke well of his character. He also basically folded.
“I wanted to say I really appreciate your article man,” Bethke wrote to DeYoung in an online exchange. “It hit me hard. I’ll even be honest and say I agree 100 percent.”
Bethke watched a panel discussion in which some theologians lamented young people’s disdain of organized religion. “Right when I heard that,” he told The Christian Post, “it just convicted me, and God used it as one of those Spirit moments where it’s just, ‘Man, he’s right.’ I realized a lot of my views and treatments of the church were not Scripture-based; they were very experience based.”
Bethke’s passionate polemic and subsequent retreat are symptomatic of a lot of the protest cries we hear these days. This seems to be a moment when many people — in religion, economics and politics — are disgusted by current institutions, but then they are vague about what sorts of institutions should replace them.
This seems to be a moment of fervent protest movements that are ultimately vague and ineffectual.
We can all theorize why the intense desire for change has so far produced relatively few coherent recipes for change. Maybe people today are simply too deferential. Raised to get college recommendations, maybe they lack the oppositional mentality necessary for revolt. Maybe people are too distracted.
My own theory revolves around a single bad idea. For generations people have been told: Think for yourself; come up with your own independent worldview. Unless your name is Nietzsche, that’s probably a bad idea. Very few people have the genius or time to come up with a comprehensive and rigorous worldview.
If you go out there armed only with your own observations and sentiments, you will surely find yourself on very weak ground. You’ll lack the arguments, convictions and the coherent view of reality that you’ll need when challenged by a self-confident opposition. This is more or less what happened to Jefferson Bethke.
The paradox of reform movements is that, if you want to defy authority, you probably shouldn’t think entirely for yourself. You should attach yourself to a counter-tradition and school of thought that has been developed over the centuries and that seems true.
The old leftists had dialectical materialism and the Marxist view of history. Libertarians have Hayek and von Mises. Various spiritual movements have drawn from Transcendentalism, Stoicism, Gnosticism, Thomism, Augustine, Tolstoy, or the Catholic social teaching that inspired Dorothy Day.
These belief systems helped people envision alternate realities. They helped people explain why the things society values are not the things that should be valued. They gave movements a set of organizing principles. Joining a tradition doesn’t mean suppressing your individuality. Applying an ancient tradition to a new situation is a creative, stimulating and empowering act. Without a tradition, everything is impermanence and flux.
Most professors would like their students to be more rebellious and argumentative. But rebellion without a rigorous alternative vision is just a feeble spasm.
If I could offer advice to a young rebel, it would be to rummage the past for a body of thought that helps you understand and address the shortcomings you see. Give yourself a label. If your college hasn’t provided you with a good knowledge of countercultural viewpoints — ranging from Thoreau to Maritain — then your college has failed you and you should try to remedy that ignorance.
Effective rebellion isn’t just expressing your personal feelings. It means replacing one set of authorities and institutions with a better set of authorities and institutions. Authorities and institutions don’t repress the passions of the heart, the way some young people now suppose. They give them focus and a means to turn passion into change.
Im just stressing the fact that many people feel spiritual without a religion. Seeing shit like this in the news does not help people who want to find a place who either need guidance or wish to lead with their spirituality.
Then put in the fact with the Catholic Church its archaic views on women's rights which is terribly ironical since it worships Mary and has no female leaders in the Church. Martin Luther was onto something. :P However, him too, denying the Divine Feminine is wrong. Even a church that worships and promotes the Divine Mother still does not give her equal credit that she can exist also as the Trinity. Anyway... rant... these are some of my problems with Christian religions.
A lot of people feel this way lost in this manner, besides paradoxically Jesus was a heretic.
How to Fight The Man
By DAVID BROOKS
Published: February 2, 2012
this guy is great! I thank the person who started the original thread a couple maybe few weeks ago
it was locked and mentioned this video was an advertisement, I believe that was what was decided.
I think its great Pandora. I started to get exactly that ^^^ type of feeling about that after reading the comments in the thread. People shun religious institutions for exactly what we see in the papers about ill properly managed for years acts child abuse. Or the GOP pushing some wierd bachmannish agenda. Or some kind of extremish nut job gone into hyper spiritual righteousness mode. Whatever. These are not good leaders/shepherds of the their congregations... they are frightening those away from their spiritual experiences they are not being empathetic to their needs. Their righteousness getting so much in the way it has become oppression not freedom. Or they might be missing out on good leaders to enlighten their followers. I love when people say, "where was your God when You were in need..." people have become so cynical its really terrible. Not that they need to believe, but for most people there is a connection to "something" music, the earth, whatever... instead of a deity. Which is fine but that still needs to be nurtured... we are still all connected. You may not feel the need to have responsibility to a God but you still need to have responsibility for yourselves, people and the earth we all live upon.
People are turning away from these institutions which I completely understand.
I believe in the "co-exist" mentality think that not any one religion is absolutely correct its just the guide of your spiritual cultural paths for that lifetime til you reach your highest being/enlightenment. Anyway, I thought that was interesting considering the responses had turned into running away from the religions they grew up with as kids. One must remember and separate. There is a difference from spirituality and religion. One does not have to be a member of a church to believe the things he has experienced to feel spiritual nor do they need to feel that they have to have a religion to explain it to them.
A lot of people feel this way lost in this manner, besides paradoxically Jesus was a heretic.
How to Fight The Man
By DAVID BROOKS
Published: February 2, 2012
this guy is great! I thank the person who started the original thread a couple maybe few weeks ago
it was locked and mentioned this video was an advertisement, I believe that was what was decided.
it's pretty sad that the place where people go for spiritual guidance and shelter is not a safe environment for children. this is a very disturbing trend. every couple of years there is a big scandal in a major city's archdioscese. these people should not be transferred, they should be defrocked and prosecuted. the church should have taken a stand against it instead of sweeping it under the rug. i know the st louis archdiocese has had a major scandal over the years. there is an organization here called SNAP, or Survivor's Network of those Abused by Priests that has a lot of clout here in town and it has gotten million dollar settlements for victims.
i was raised catholic and was even an alter boy from ages 12-16. at 16 i went to a different church because it was closer to home and i had lost interest in the alter boy thing. at that time at the urging of my mom i befriended and was counseled by the pastor of the new church after one of my friends, who was a member of the church committed suicide. i took it very hard because it was the second person i had been friends with that had done that in 3 years.....he was very compassionate and told me of how his own brother killed himself as a teenager. he gave me good advice and it really helped me out. when i went away to college at 18 he got transferred to a brand new church about 70 miles away so i never saw him after that. over the years we exchanged christmas cards. he is one of only 3 people i would ever send cards to. he passed away a few years ago. he was one of the good ones. in college i decided that who i really am had nothing to do with the catholic teaching, and that i could no longer compromise who i am to live in the strict confines of that religion. it was purely out of respect and friendship that i even stayed in touch with him for those several years.
at the prior church i remember having priest and alterboy activities that were always at this big seminary every summer. we would play tennis, play baseball, swim, and it was all catered by mcdonald's, all the free big macs you could eat i do recall guys being weirded out by certain priests. we did not really suspect that a priest could be gay or a mollester at that age, because we did not know what that meant.... but looking back some of the alter boys were clearly the priests' pets. i would show up to get ready for a saturday evening mass and some of the boys would be leaving the rectory together. i thought it odd that boys would go hang out at the rectory on a saturday afternoon. most of us were out doing normal kid things like playing sports or doing things outside, not sitting in a rectory with a bunch of old dudes. as far as i know nothing happened or was reported from that time, but i never went to the rectory and did not really associate with that group of 5 or 6 kids.
i guess i was not attractive enough...
if they could only see me now though....
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
I think its great Pandora. I started to get exactly that ^^^ type of feeling about that after reading the comments in the thread. People shun religious institutions for exactly what we see in the papers about ill properly managed for years acts child abuse. Or the GOP pushing some wierd bachmannish agenda. Or some kind of extremish nut job gone into hyper spiritual righteousness mode. Whatever. These are not good leaders/shepherds of the their congregations... they are frightening those away from their spiritual experiences they are not being empathetic to their needs. Their righteousness getting so much in the way it has become oppression not freedom. Or they might be missing out on good leaders to enlighten their followers. I love when people say, "where was your God when You were in need..." people have become so cynical its really terrible. Not that they need to believe, but for most people there is a connection to "something" music, the earth, whatever... instead of a deity. Which is fine but that still needs to be nurtured... we are still all connected. You may not feel the need to have responsibility to a God but you still need to have responsibility for yourselves, people and the earth we all live upon.
People are turning away from these institutions which I completely understand.
I believe in the "co-exist" mentality think that not any one religion is absolutely correct its just the guide of your spiritual cultural paths for that lifetime til you reach your highest being/enlightenment. Anyway, I thought that was interesting considering the responses had turned into running away from the religions they grew up with as kids. One must remember and separate. There is a difference from spirituality and religion. One does not have to be a member of a church to believe the things he has experienced to feel spiritual nor do they need to feel that they have to have a religion to explain it to them.
Faith is a personal place, as individual as the individual, in my opinion.
What has disappointed me is that some people do not see Faith in that light.
Some do not attempt to feel what others are feeling even to the extent of to each their own. They seem to need to label, generalize and judge.
There is no need to challenge just respect the right to one's own faith and embrace
that. It feels really good.
What is with all the pooh-poohin' goin' on :?
As far as preying on those weaker unfortunately that is also as individual as the individual
and we are welcoming change that will no longer allow evil to work in tandem,
hopefully. And hopefully this will be in many arenas not just religion.
Faith is a personal place, as individual as the individual, in my opinion.
What has disappointed me is that some people do not see Faith in that light.
Some do not attempt to feel what others are feeling even to the extent of to each their own. They seem to need to label, generalize and judge.
There is no need to challenge just respect the right to one's own faith and embrace
that. It feels really good.
What is with all the pooh-poohin' goin' on :?
As far as preying on those weaker unfortunately that is also as individual as the individual
and we are welcoming change that will no longer allow evil to work in tandem,
hopefully. And hopefully this will be in many arenas not just religion.
if only that were the case ... faith often (especially as it relates to the catholic church) aims to impose its will on society ... see gay marriage, reproduction rights, school curriculum, etc ...
the pooh-poohin is rooted in the blatant cover up of crimes in order to protect the reputation of faith ... something that is unacceptable ...
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81
Needing a ride to Forest Hills and a ounce of weed. Please inquire within. Thanks. Or not. Posts: 58,276
it's nothing more than an institutionalized cess pool that needs to be shut down.
Faith is a personal place, as individual as the individual, in my opinion.
What has disappointed me is that some people do not see Faith in that light.
Some do not attempt to feel what others are feeling even to the extent of to each their own. They seem to need to label, generalize and judge.
There is no need to challenge just respect the right to one's own faith and embrace
that. It feels really good.
What is with all the pooh-poohin' goin' on :?
As far as preying on those weaker unfortunately that is also as individual as the individual
and we are welcoming change that will no longer allow evil to work in tandem,
hopefully. And hopefully this will be in many arenas not just religion.
if only that were the case ... faith often (especially as it relates to the catholic church) aims to impose its will on society ... see gay marriage, reproduction rights, school curriculum, etc ...
the pooh-poohin is rooted in the blatant cover up of crimes in order to protect the reputation of faith ... something that is unacceptable ...
no pooh poohin is everywhere ... it's a puddle and I meant it in the broader sense
a church has the right to speak for it's followers and guide them in my opinion as far as a private organization and as far as imposing will
it has been the will of many that they have represented and still do
as with the recent pill issue the government should not require a church
to go against its beliefs, this is also imposing will
so will goes both ways
I feel the tug of war and no one wants to give an inch for fear the other take a mile
The Catholic Church is the only one who can do something to change the stigma of sexual abuse within its organization. They can start by prosecuting the perpetrators to the fullest extent of the law and stop trying to cover up the abuses. They need to first, accept that these things ARE happening and quit pretending that no one will notice or care... then, DO SOMETHING to punish the offenders.
The ONLY way the Catholic Church will change this, is if the change comes from the top... beginning with The Pope, and working its way down the ranks. The Church is the one that should hold itself accountable. If it does that, public opinion will change.
Maybe it's time that the everyday Catholics petition their leadership to do something... the right thing... and end what seems to be a normal practice of covering up, instead of locking up, the sexual predators in its ranks. As long as Catholics accept (and/or deny) this... nothing will change.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
this is the pope's response ... what a travesty ... it's too bad those of faith would rather spend their energy deflecting blame rather than facing the truth ...
But victims of abuse slammed the conference as an empty gesture likely to produce few results and called on the Holy See to take more concrete steps to ensure that paedophile priests were swiftly exposed and made to face justice.
Benedict XVI said he hoped the conference would "promote throughout the Church a vigorous culture of effective safeguarding and victim support".
He said: "Healing for victims must be of paramount concern in the Christian community and it must go hand in hand with a profound renewal of the Church at every level."
A Vatican statement said that Benedict "supports and encourages every effort to respond with evangelical charity to the challenge of providing children and vulnerable adults with an ecclesiastical environment conducive to their human and spiritual growth."
The Vatican has been accused of complacency and denial in its attitudes to paedophile clergy, with victims criticising the Pope himself for not doing enough to fight the problem when, as Cardinal Josef Ratzinger, he was the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Holy See's doctrinal enforcement body.
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He has been blamed for fostering a culture of secrecy there, signing an official Vatican document in 2001 which instructed bishops to keep secret the details of priestly wrongdoing that they reported to Rome.
During his six-year papacy, paedophile abuse scandals have shaken the faith of Catholics in Ireland, the Netherlands, Belgium, Austria and his native Germany.
Many cases went back decades and involved priests who continued to abuse children, even after their activities were known, because of the collusion of senior Church officials and the inaction of the Vatican.
But the Pope has been praised by some Catholics for his candour on the issue, saying that sex abuse by priests had opened up a "grievous wound" in the Church and apologising to victims in several countries.
The four-day conference at Rome's Gregorian University will bring together bishops from more than 100 countries, as well as the leaders of 33 religious orders.
But victim support groups said they had not been invited to the event and dismissed it as an act of tokenism from a Church that had still not grappled with practical ways of preventing abuse from happening in the future.
"You can have all the symposiums you want, but why don't they open a constructive debate? The Church is too closed in on itself," Roberto Mirabile, the head of La Caramella Buona, an Italian victims' group, told AFP.
Sue Cox, from Survivors' Voice, a coalition of support groups from the US, Britain, Ireland and Germany, said: "You don't need a jolly in Rome to learn what the right thing to do is. This is just a PR stunt. It's just theatre really."
Just one abuse victim will take part in the conference – Marie Collins, from Ireland, who as a girl was raped by a priest in a hospital in Dublin.
She said she overcame her initial reservations about the event and decided to take part because she hoped it could prevent future abuse.
He has been blamed for fostering a culture of secrecy there, signing an official Vatican document in 2001 which instructed bishops to keep secret the details of priestly wrongdoing that they reported to Rome.
...
This is WHY the Catholic Chuch comes under fire... because they continue to protect 'their own' and fail to protect their children from 'their own'. Wrong doings need to be prosecuted and punished when found guilty. Hiding them in Central America does nothing other than moving the criminal wrong doings to Central America.
When the Church figures this out and does what its God and Saviour would expect them to do... it will always have this shadow of suspecion cast over it.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
This is WHY the Catholic Chuch comes under fire... because they continue to protect 'their own' and fail to protect their children from 'their own'. Wrong doings need to be prosecuted and punished when found guilty. Hiding them in Central America does nothing other than moving the criminal wrong doings to Central America.
When the Church figures this out and does what its God and Saviour would expect them to do... it will always have this shadow of suspecion cast over it.
it's a fraud organization filled with hate and operates on fear as far as i'm concerned ... i respect pretty much every faith out there ... even scientology to a certain degree but i feel the catholic church does more harm than good in society ...
any organization that is willing to sacrifice the well being of children in order to protect its name is capable of doing a lot more heinous acts ...
Pope's are quite peaceful and docile ... yes? Attempting to remain the symbol
of who and what a Pope is to the millions of worshipers
this their role since forever
I'm not of any religion but this I imagine to be
He's kind of a sweetie pie really, I mean no disrespect, a very positive loving figure ...
I've always thought very sweet and cute
He said...
"profound renewal" ...
"promote throughout the Church a vigorous culture of effective safeguarding and victim support".
"Healing for victims must be of paramount concern in the Christian community
and it must go hand in hand with a profound renewal of the Church at every level."
Seems like good words....
The four-day conference at Rome's Gregorian University will bring together bishops from more than 100 countries, as well as the leaders of 33 religious orders.
The Catholic Church is a whole lotta people :shock: ... that's a lot of people to police
Some have commended the Pope on his open candor
and obviously with all the lawsuits and publicity nothing is much of a secret anymore
most especially to the congregations of parents and children.
So lets review... we must watch out for
Priests
Coaches
Scout leaders
school teachers
Policemen
next door neighbors
your best friends husband
oh and clowns
I know we are forgetting someone...
lots of creepy people about ... what's up with that anyway?
must be the evil I feel, seems to be getting stronger
He has been blamed for fostering a culture of secrecy there, signing an official Vatican document in 2001 which instructed bishops to keep secret the details of priestly wrongdoing that they reported to Rome.
yeah ... sweet guy that pope is ... :twisted:
it's no wonder this organization is still so powerful ... :(
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,430
christianity is straight up dangerous. i know of no other reason for why millions have been executed, tortured, molested, and terrorized. this grand scheme is only in the name of power and money.
do weak minded gather sundays, wednesday nights and some saturdays?
Before you toss the whole belief of Christianity in with the Catholic Church you may want to reconsider.
Yeah, I agree, there are many fine people of various faiths although I can understand people's frustration and anger with certain segments of Christianity- or any form of fundamentalist religion for that matter. The important thing here is to stop the abuse. Two friends I've had who endured such abuse ended up very tragically- one ended up in a psychiatry ward the other dead of too much drinking. Terrible and sad.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
He has been blamed for fostering a culture of secrecy there, signing an official Vatican document in 2001 which instructed bishops to keep secret the details of priestly wrongdoing that they reported to Rome.
yeah ... sweet guy that pope is ... :twisted:
it's no wonder this organization is still so powerful ... :(
2001 ... we've come a long way in a decade
just imagine how cool we'll be in 2022 hmmmm
although isn't it like every minute a woman is raped here in the US
Comments
what...you touched some kid...fine fine...we'll ship a couple states over....they'll never know...now don't do it again.
it happens over and over and over in the catholic church. multiple BK's for it.
it's the funny thing...you have one person and yes a coverup...and people are all over school and a person that wasn't involved, and sent it to his superiors....
yet, here we have an institution with litteraly thousands of cases....and we barely hear a peep....and we don't hear anything from the most vehement denoucers of the PSU case.
They can't say anything bad about the Catholic church, are you kidding? If they do, they're going to hell!!!
Alright maybe that's a bit juvenile but great point. At what point are people going to get upset enough to finally put a stop to this behavior? No, not all churches are bad and not every priest is guilty of this. But the ones that are are not being stopped. The church keeps sweeping everything under the rug and is not being held accountable. I've got many other personal reasons as to why I broke with the Catholic church...and I'm not condemning people that are followers...but they've gotta start opening up their eyes.
"Hyperboles are exaggerations to create emphasis or effect. As a literary device, hyperbole is often used in poetry, and is frequently encountered in casual speech. An example of hyperbole is: "The bag weighed a ton."[2] Hyperbole helps to make the point that the bag was very heavy, although it is not probable that it would actually weigh a ton." Source: Wiki
Everyone, if you want to have a discussion about this issue, please do so with reasoned debate and stick to the topic. It could be interesting or it could get locked. Thank you.
I guess AET needs to be shown how to really ef' things up and get a thread shut down.
let it begin!!!
A lot of people feel this way lost in this manner, besides paradoxically Jesus was a heretic.
How to Fight The Man
By DAVID BROOKS
Published: February 2, 2012
A few weeks ago, a 22-year-old man named Jefferson Bethke produced a video called “Why I Hate Religion, but Love Jesus.” The video shows Bethke standing in a courtyard rhyming about the purity of the teachings of Jesus and the hypocrisy of the church. Jesus preaches healing, surrender and love, he argues, but religion is rigid, phony and stale. “Jesus came to abolish religion,” Bethke insists. “Religion puts you in bondage, but Jesus sets you free.”
The video went viral. As of Thursday, it had acquired more than 18 million hits on YouTube. It speaks for many young believers who feel close to God but not to the church. It represents the passionate voice of those who think their institutions lack integrity — not just the religious ones, but the political and corporate ones, too.
Right away, many older theologians began critiquing Bethke’s statements. A blogger named Kevin DeYoung pointed out, for example, that it is biblically inaccurate to say that Jesus hated religion. In fact, Jesus preached a religious doctrine, prescribed rituals and worshiped in a temple.
Bethke responded in a way that was humble, earnest and gracious, and that generally spoke well of his character. He also basically folded.
“I wanted to say I really appreciate your article man,” Bethke wrote to DeYoung in an online exchange. “It hit me hard. I’ll even be honest and say I agree 100 percent.”
Bethke watched a panel discussion in which some theologians lamented young people’s disdain of organized religion. “Right when I heard that,” he told The Christian Post, “it just convicted me, and God used it as one of those Spirit moments where it’s just, ‘Man, he’s right.’ I realized a lot of my views and treatments of the church were not Scripture-based; they were very experience based.”
Bethke’s passionate polemic and subsequent retreat are symptomatic of a lot of the protest cries we hear these days. This seems to be a moment when many people — in religion, economics and politics — are disgusted by current institutions, but then they are vague about what sorts of institutions should replace them.
This seems to be a moment of fervent protest movements that are ultimately vague and ineffectual.
We can all theorize why the intense desire for change has so far produced relatively few coherent recipes for change. Maybe people today are simply too deferential. Raised to get college recommendations, maybe they lack the oppositional mentality necessary for revolt. Maybe people are too distracted.
My own theory revolves around a single bad idea. For generations people have been told: Think for yourself; come up with your own independent worldview. Unless your name is Nietzsche, that’s probably a bad idea. Very few people have the genius or time to come up with a comprehensive and rigorous worldview.
If you go out there armed only with your own observations and sentiments, you will surely find yourself on very weak ground. You’ll lack the arguments, convictions and the coherent view of reality that you’ll need when challenged by a self-confident opposition. This is more or less what happened to Jefferson Bethke.
The paradox of reform movements is that, if you want to defy authority, you probably shouldn’t think entirely for yourself. You should attach yourself to a counter-tradition and school of thought that has been developed over the centuries and that seems true.
The old leftists had dialectical materialism and the Marxist view of history. Libertarians have Hayek and von Mises. Various spiritual movements have drawn from Transcendentalism, Stoicism, Gnosticism, Thomism, Augustine, Tolstoy, or the Catholic social teaching that inspired Dorothy Day.
These belief systems helped people envision alternate realities. They helped people explain why the things society values are not the things that should be valued. They gave movements a set of organizing principles. Joining a tradition doesn’t mean suppressing your individuality. Applying an ancient tradition to a new situation is a creative, stimulating and empowering act. Without a tradition, everything is impermanence and flux.
Most professors would like their students to be more rebellious and argumentative. But rebellion without a rigorous alternative vision is just a feeble spasm.
If I could offer advice to a young rebel, it would be to rummage the past for a body of thought that helps you understand and address the shortcomings you see. Give yourself a label. If your college hasn’t provided you with a good knowledge of countercultural viewpoints — ranging from Thoreau to Maritain — then your college has failed you and you should try to remedy that ignorance.
Effective rebellion isn’t just expressing your personal feelings. It means replacing one set of authorities and institutions with a better set of authorities and institutions. Authorities and institutions don’t repress the passions of the heart, the way some young people now suppose. They give them focus and a means to turn passion into change.
Then put in the fact with the Catholic Church its archaic views on women's rights which is terribly ironical since it worships Mary and has no female leaders in the Church. Martin Luther was onto something. :P However, him too, denying the Divine Feminine is wrong. Even a church that worships and promotes the Divine Mother still does not give her equal credit that she can exist also as the Trinity. Anyway... rant... these are some of my problems with Christian religions.
Damn right, you heard me, equality.
it was locked and mentioned this video was an advertisement, I believe that was what was decided.
People are turning away from these institutions which I completely understand.
I believe in the "co-exist" mentality think that not any one religion is absolutely correct its just the guide of your spiritual cultural paths for that lifetime til you reach your highest being/enlightenment. Anyway, I thought that was interesting considering the responses had turned into running away from the religions they grew up with as kids. One must remember and separate. There is a difference from spirituality and religion. One does not have to be a member of a church to believe the things he has experienced to feel spiritual nor do they need to feel that they have to have a religion to explain it to them.
i was raised catholic and was even an alter boy from ages 12-16. at 16 i went to a different church because it was closer to home and i had lost interest in the alter boy thing. at that time at the urging of my mom i befriended and was counseled by the pastor of the new church after one of my friends, who was a member of the church committed suicide. i took it very hard because it was the second person i had been friends with that had done that in 3 years.....he was very compassionate and told me of how his own brother killed himself as a teenager. he gave me good advice and it really helped me out. when i went away to college at 18 he got transferred to a brand new church about 70 miles away so i never saw him after that. over the years we exchanged christmas cards. he is one of only 3 people i would ever send cards to. he passed away a few years ago. he was one of the good ones. in college i decided that who i really am had nothing to do with the catholic teaching, and that i could no longer compromise who i am to live in the strict confines of that religion. it was purely out of respect and friendship that i even stayed in touch with him for those several years.
at the prior church i remember having priest and alterboy activities that were always at this big seminary every summer. we would play tennis, play baseball, swim, and it was all catered by mcdonald's, all the free big macs you could eat
i guess i was not attractive enough...
if they could only see me now though....
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Faith is a personal place, as individual as the individual, in my opinion.
What has disappointed me is that some people do not see Faith in that light.
Some do not attempt to feel what others are feeling even to the extent of
to each their own. They seem to need to label, generalize and judge.
There is no need to challenge just respect the right to one's own faith and embrace
that. It feels really good.
What is with all the pooh-poohin' goin' on :?
As far as preying on those weaker unfortunately that is also as individual as the individual
and we are welcoming change that will no longer allow evil to work in tandem,
hopefully. And hopefully this will be in many arenas not just religion.
if only that were the case ... faith often (especially as it relates to the catholic church) aims to impose its will on society ... see gay marriage, reproduction rights, school curriculum, etc ...
the pooh-poohin is rooted in the blatant cover up of crimes in order to protect the reputation of faith ... something that is unacceptable ...
"It" says he is the last.
Name your betrayers.
a church has the right to speak for it's followers and guide them
in my opinion as far as a private organization and as far as imposing will
it has been the will of many that they have represented and still do
as with the recent pill issue the government should not require a church
to go against its beliefs, this is also imposing will
so will goes both ways
I feel the tug of war and no one wants to give an inch for fear the other take a mile
The ONLY way the Catholic Church will change this, is if the change comes from the top... beginning with The Pope, and working its way down the ranks. The Church is the one that should hold itself accountable. If it does that, public opinion will change.
Maybe it's time that the everyday Catholics petition their leadership to do something... the right thing... and end what seems to be a normal practice of covering up, instead of locking up, the sexual predators in its ranks. As long as Catholics accept (and/or deny) this... nothing will change.
Hail, Hail!!!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religio ... hurch.html
But victims of abuse slammed the conference as an empty gesture likely to produce few results and called on the Holy See to take more concrete steps to ensure that paedophile priests were swiftly exposed and made to face justice.
Benedict XVI said he hoped the conference would "promote throughout the Church a vigorous culture of effective safeguarding and victim support".
He said: "Healing for victims must be of paramount concern in the Christian community and it must go hand in hand with a profound renewal of the Church at every level."
A Vatican statement said that Benedict "supports and encourages every effort to respond with evangelical charity to the challenge of providing children and vulnerable adults with an ecclesiastical environment conducive to their human and spiritual growth."
The Vatican has been accused of complacency and denial in its attitudes to paedophile clergy, with victims criticising the Pope himself for not doing enough to fight the problem when, as Cardinal Josef Ratzinger, he was the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Holy See's doctrinal enforcement body.
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He has been blamed for fostering a culture of secrecy there, signing an official Vatican document in 2001 which instructed bishops to keep secret the details of priestly wrongdoing that they reported to Rome.
During his six-year papacy, paedophile abuse scandals have shaken the faith of Catholics in Ireland, the Netherlands, Belgium, Austria and his native Germany.
Many cases went back decades and involved priests who continued to abuse children, even after their activities were known, because of the collusion of senior Church officials and the inaction of the Vatican.
But the Pope has been praised by some Catholics for his candour on the issue, saying that sex abuse by priests had opened up a "grievous wound" in the Church and apologising to victims in several countries.
The four-day conference at Rome's Gregorian University will bring together bishops from more than 100 countries, as well as the leaders of 33 religious orders.
But victim support groups said they had not been invited to the event and dismissed it as an act of tokenism from a Church that had still not grappled with practical ways of preventing abuse from happening in the future.
"You can have all the symposiums you want, but why don't they open a constructive debate? The Church is too closed in on itself," Roberto Mirabile, the head of La Caramella Buona, an Italian victims' group, told AFP.
Sue Cox, from Survivors' Voice, a coalition of support groups from the US, Britain, Ireland and Germany, said: "You don't need a jolly in Rome to learn what the right thing to do is. This is just a PR stunt. It's just theatre really."
Just one abuse victim will take part in the conference – Marie Collins, from Ireland, who as a girl was raped by a priest in a hospital in Dublin.
She said she overcame her initial reservations about the event and decided to take part because she hoped it could prevent future abuse.
This is WHY the Catholic Chuch comes under fire... because they continue to protect 'their own' and fail to protect their children from 'their own'. Wrong doings need to be prosecuted and punished when found guilty. Hiding them in Central America does nothing other than moving the criminal wrong doings to Central America.
When the Church figures this out and does what its God and Saviour would expect them to do... it will always have this shadow of suspecion cast over it.
Hail, Hail!!!
I dont have to write down verbatim what was said do I?
it's a fraud organization filled with hate and operates on fear as far as i'm concerned ... i respect pretty much every faith out there ... even scientology to a certain degree but i feel the catholic church does more harm than good in society ...
any organization that is willing to sacrifice the well being of children in order to protect its name is capable of doing a lot more heinous acts ...
Pope's are quite peaceful and docile ... yes? Attempting to remain the symbol
of who and what a Pope is to the millions of worshipers
this their role since forever
I'm not of any religion but this I imagine to be
He's kind of a sweetie pie really, I mean no disrespect, a very positive loving figure ...
I've always thought very sweet and cute
He said...
"profound renewal" ...
"promote throughout the Church a vigorous culture of effective safeguarding and victim support".
"Healing for victims must be of paramount concern in the Christian community
and it must go hand in hand with a profound renewal of the Church at every level."
Seems like good words....
The four-day conference at Rome's Gregorian University will bring together bishops from more than 100 countries, as well as the leaders of 33 religious orders.
The Catholic Church is a whole lotta people :shock: ... that's a lot of people to police
Some have commended the Pope on his open candor
and obviously with all the lawsuits and publicity nothing is much of a secret anymore
most especially to the congregations of parents and children.
So lets review... we must watch out for
Priests
Coaches
Scout leaders
school teachers
Policemen
next door neighbors
your best friends husband
oh and clowns
I know we are forgetting someone...
lots of creepy people about ... what's up with that anyway?
must be the evil I feel, seems to be getting stronger
see galileo, galen, etc....
i am also opposed to any organization that remains united itself while seeking to alienate and divide the rest of us.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I could be wrong though
yeah ... sweet guy that pope is ... :twisted:
it's no wonder this organization is still so powerful ... :(
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
just imagine how cool we'll be in 2022 hmmmm
although isn't it like every minute a woman is raped here in the US
what's with the menfolk? :?