I would never tell my employees what procedures they can have.
America was built by people who came to escape religious persecution.
+1
i completely disagree with waveryder at every turn....
religion should have no bearing over reproductive health. and should have no say in health care at all...period...
that would be like me saying as an oncologist that i can not treat you until it has been proven that god has forsaken you....
you are missing the point. Forcing a private employer to offer a specific type of coverage is denying that company property rights. Religion is not a big deal to me. I am pro choice. I am pro choice when it comes to everything and the govt should not be telling individuals or businesses how to go about there day to day lives and operations. The choice for coverage types still lies in the hands of individuals.
Somebody posted earlier that employers should have nothing to do with insurance at all and tahts why the system is fundamentally flawed.....I agree. But the way it is now, I will always error on the side of choice.....for all.
Most people just pick and choose when they want to apply the principles of freedom and choice. I however cant and will not decipher.....its a slippery slope. I want to protect liberty for all.
RC, SoDak 1998 - KC 2000 - Council Bluffs IA 2003 - Fargo ND 2003 - St. Paul MN 2003 - Alpine Valley 2003 - St Louis MO 2004 - Kissimmee FLA 2004 - Winnipeg 2005 - Thunder Bay 2005 - Chicago 2006 - Grand Rapids MI 2006 - Denver CO 2006 - Lollapalooza 2007 - Bonnaroo 2008 - Austin City Limits 2009 - Los Angeles 2009 - KC 2010 - St Louis MO 2010 - PJ20 Night 1 - PJ20 Night 2
and id venture to guess not many of you have political science degrees. if ppl would study the founders and the constitution, this wouldnt even be a debate. It's gross how little people know about the American legal code and the bill of rights then they turn around and vote. What you people have been arguing are not American ideals........forcing private companies to provide a service ..... whether its cost effective or not ...... it strangles the idea of freedom. Life liberty and property (yeah, Jefferson switched property with happiness at the last minute) look it up.
RC, SoDak 1998 - KC 2000 - Council Bluffs IA 2003 - Fargo ND 2003 - St. Paul MN 2003 - Alpine Valley 2003 - St Louis MO 2004 - Kissimmee FLA 2004 - Winnipeg 2005 - Thunder Bay 2005 - Chicago 2006 - Grand Rapids MI 2006 - Denver CO 2006 - Lollapalooza 2007 - Bonnaroo 2008 - Austin City Limits 2009 - Los Angeles 2009 - KC 2010 - St Louis MO 2010 - PJ20 Night 1 - PJ20 Night 2
but doing so defies the idea of property rights. Why should the govt be protecting one group's religious freedom over another? if it were a govt employer, youd be absolutely right. Its private employers, so, according to the Constitution, youre absolutely wrong. We must respect peoples rights to their own property. Always.
You can choose where you work.
I disagree. And are you saying they can they also refuse to provide coverage for ANYTHING?
yes. a private employer doesnt have to offer healthcare insurance at all. Duh. I worked at tace bell in high school. they didnt offer insurance to anybody.
Actually, according to the Affordable Care Act employers of 50 or more people will have to offer health insurance.
Regardless, personal property rights are not absolute; they must be weighed against the harm they cause to others. We all know that real life is not as simple as people just being able to choose we're they work. Choice is relative & many people can't just quit their job every time their company is taken over by someone who doesn't like for other people to use contraception, or get treatment for HIV, or get their newborn circumcised, or receive blood transfusions, or get MMR vaccinations. No one should have the right to step in between a person & his/her doctor and make that person's medical decisions based on his own personal opinion.
The irony here is something like this will only hurt the employees. An employer comes up with a dollar amount they are willing to pay for an employee. With government mandated health insurance add-ons, that is only going to come out of your salary.
You seem to be forgetting, though, that preventive health care saves money.
when i was covering the legislative session in my home state. this issue came up. the state tried mandating that employers offering health insurance cover contraceptives. One of the largest employers in the state is Catholic Hospital. The hospitals representatives stated that even with a mandate, they simply wouldnt do it. It goes against freedom of religion.
So this hospital doesn't receive a dime of public funds, then?
And is it not a major provider of health care for its population? If it is, how is it possibly right that a population's primary source of healthcare should be able to deny their patients the preventative care that their doctors say they need?
imposing someone elses beliefs on another should not be ok. and as far as the pharmacy goes, find a different pharmacy. if its a privately run firm, they can choose what products to offer and which ones they dont. Its called free enterprise.
But you're neglecting to recognize that someone is imposing his/her beliefs on another either way here. You're just deciding which person's beliefs get imposed. So since you believe the employer's beliefs should always trump the emploees' beliefs, then you believe pharmacists should be made to prescribe Plan B, etc even if it violates their own religious beliefs, right? So in that sense you agree with gimme?
The irony here is something like this will only hurt the employees. An employer comes up with a dollar amount they are willing to pay for an employee. With government mandated health insurance add-ons, that is only going to come out of your salary.
You seem to be forgetting, though, that preventive health care saves money.
So does eating right and exercise, should we also mandate businesses have to provide a gym membership?
and id venture to guess not many of you have political science degrees. if ppl would study the founders and the constitution, this wouldnt even be a debate. It's gross how little people know about the American legal code and the bill of rights then they turn around and vote. What you people have been arguing are not American ideals........forcing private companies to provide a service ..... whether its cost effective or not ...... it strangles the idea of freedom. Life liberty and property (yeah, Jefferson switched property with happiness at the last minute) look it up.
Wow, that's kind of condescending. While I totally agree with you that more Americans need to study political science, it's unfounded for you to suggest that the people in this particular conversation have not. I haven't seen anyone say anything that indicates ignorance of the American legal code or the Bill of Rights; we just interpret their applications to this subject differently than you do - as does at least one Harvard-educated former constitutional law professor. So apparently it really is a debate, even among people who have studied the founders & the Constitution. Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean you're smarter than them. So rather than take your all-knowing word for it, I'll leave it up to the Supreme Court to decide what's constitutional. Or are they grossly uneducated compared to you too? :roll:
when i was covering the legislative session in my home state. this issue came up. the state tried mandating that employers offering health insurance cover contraceptives. One of the largest employers in the state is Catholic Hospital. The hospitals representatives stated that even with a mandate, they simply wouldnt do it. It goes against freedom of religion.
So this hospital doesn't receive a dime of public funds, then?
And is it not a major provider of health care for its population? If it is, how is it possibly right that a population's primary source of healthcare should be able to deny their patients the preventative care that their doctors say they need?
imposing someone elses beliefs on another should not be ok. and as far as the pharmacy goes, find a different pharmacy. if its a privately run firm, they can choose what products to offer and which ones they dont. Its called free enterprise.
But you're neglecting to recognize that someone is imposing his/her beliefs on another either way here. You're just deciding which person's beliefs get imposed. So since you believe the employer's beliefs should always trump the emploees' beliefs, then you believe pharmacists should be made to prescribe Plan B, etc even if it violates their own religious beliefs, right? So in that sense you agree with gimme?
Right now, every one has a choice. Under the new law, choice is limited.
ill error on the side of choice - pun intended
RC, SoDak 1998 - KC 2000 - Council Bluffs IA 2003 - Fargo ND 2003 - St. Paul MN 2003 - Alpine Valley 2003 - St Louis MO 2004 - Kissimmee FLA 2004 - Winnipeg 2005 - Thunder Bay 2005 - Chicago 2006 - Grand Rapids MI 2006 - Denver CO 2006 - Lollapalooza 2007 - Bonnaroo 2008 - Austin City Limits 2009 - Los Angeles 2009 - KC 2010 - St Louis MO 2010 - PJ20 Night 1 - PJ20 Night 2
The irony here is something like this will only hurt the employees. An employer comes up with a dollar amount they are willing to pay for an employee. With government mandated health insurance add-ons, that is only going to come out of your salary.
You seem to be forgetting, though, that preventive health care saves money.
So does eating right and exercise, should we also mandate businesses have to provide a gym membership?
That's not relevant to my comment. I didn't say it should be mandated because it saves money. I said that because it saves money, it's not really true that it will necessarily hurt the employees financially.
when i was covering the legislative session in my home state. this issue came up. the state tried mandating that employers offering health insurance cover contraceptives. One of the largest employers in the state is Catholic Hospital. The hospitals representatives stated that even with a mandate, they simply wouldnt do it. It goes against freedom of religion.
So this hospital doesn't receive a dime of public funds, then?
And is it not a major provider of health care for its population? If it is, how is it possibly right that a population's primary source of healthcare should be able to deny their patients the preventative care that their doctors say they need?
imposing someone elses beliefs on another should not be ok. and as far as the pharmacy goes, find a different pharmacy. if its a privately run firm, they can choose what products to offer and which ones they dont. Its called free enterprise.
But you're neglecting to recognize that someone is imposing his/her beliefs on another either way here. You're just deciding which person's beliefs get imposed. So since you believe the employer's beliefs should always trump the emploees' beliefs, then you believe pharmacists should be made to prescribe Plan B, etc even if it violates their own religious beliefs, right? So in that sense you agree with gimme?
Right now, every one has a choice. Under the new law, choice is limited.
ill error on the side of choice - pun intended
I disagree. I think you're confusing an ideal world with reality.
I disagree. I think you're confusing an ideal world with reality.
its not debatable. right now. everyone has a choice. you can choose to opt out of the insurance your employer offers. my employer offers a health plan but i found one individually for cheaper so i went that route. if i were a women and contraceptive coverage was important to me and my employers plan didnt cover it, i could also opt out and find my own plan.
What dont you understand about that. Choice is choice. look up the word in the dictionary and apply definition to "real world" and you'll see I am dead on accurate. you might not like it, but that is reality.
RC, SoDak 1998 - KC 2000 - Council Bluffs IA 2003 - Fargo ND 2003 - St. Paul MN 2003 - Alpine Valley 2003 - St Louis MO 2004 - Kissimmee FLA 2004 - Winnipeg 2005 - Thunder Bay 2005 - Chicago 2006 - Grand Rapids MI 2006 - Denver CO 2006 - Lollapalooza 2007 - Bonnaroo 2008 - Austin City Limits 2009 - Los Angeles 2009 - KC 2010 - St Louis MO 2010 - PJ20 Night 1 - PJ20 Night 2
I disagree. I think you're confusing an ideal world with reality.
its not debatable. right now. everyone has a choice. you can choose to opt out of the insurance your employer offers. my employer offers a health plan but i found one individually for cheaper so i went that route. if i were a women and contraceptive coverage was important to me and my employers plan didnt cover it, i could also opt out and find my own plan.
What dont you understand about that. Choice is choice. look up the word in the dictionary and apply definition to "real world" and you'll see I am dead on accurate. you might not like it, but that is reality.
Choice is relative. For example, in some countries the government provides food for children who are starving & whose parents can't afford to feed them, but they'll only feed the children if the mother agrees to sterilization. Then, using logic & rhetoric like yours, they say it's the women's "choice" to get sterilized or not. But when your alternative is to let your kids die, there's really not much choice.
You say everything's fair because people can always choose to quit their jobs if they don't like something, but in reality, that's not a viable option for many people.
Again, I don't know why you have to be so condescending.
"The society that puts equality before freedom will end up with neither. The society that puts freedom before equality will end up with a great measure of both." – Milton Friedman
RC, SoDak 1998 - KC 2000 - Council Bluffs IA 2003 - Fargo ND 2003 - St. Paul MN 2003 - Alpine Valley 2003 - St Louis MO 2004 - Kissimmee FLA 2004 - Winnipeg 2005 - Thunder Bay 2005 - Chicago 2006 - Grand Rapids MI 2006 - Denver CO 2006 - Lollapalooza 2007 - Bonnaroo 2008 - Austin City Limits 2009 - Los Angeles 2009 - KC 2010 - St Louis MO 2010 - PJ20 Night 1 - PJ20 Night 2
"The society that puts equality before freedom will end up with neither. The society that puts freedom before equality will end up with a great measure of both." – Milton Friedman
i disagree with this assertion.
so if we are free to choose something or act in a specific way, and we choose to oppress others or force our views on them, we will end up with a greater measure of freedom and equality?? :? :?
with unlimited freedom comes a great amount of responsibility.
freedom, if abused, leads to bad things. and to me, people who would rather do things like ride a motorcycle 90 miles per hour down the highway without a helmet only because they are free to do so is just a case in point.
your position in this thread is just your vision of morality against mine and most others in this thread.
you conservatives who are against abortion and funding things like medicaid and assistance of the poor should possibly re-think your position on abortion and your position allowing pharmacies the freedom to either honor or ignore MD orders...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"The society that puts equality before freedom will end up with neither. The society that puts freedom before equality will end up with a great measure of both." – Milton Friedman
i disagree with this assertion.
so if we are free to choose something or act in a specific way, and we choose to oppress others or force our views on them, we will end up with a greater measure of freedom and equality?? :? :?
with unlimited freedom comes a great amount of responsibility.
freedom, if abused, leads to bad things. and to me, people who would rather do things like ride a motorcycle 90 miles per hour down the highway without a helmet only because they are free to do so is just a case in point.
your position in this thread is just your vision of morality against mine and most others in this thread.
you conservatives who are against abortion and funding things like medicaid and assistance of the poor should possibly re-think your position on abortion and your position allowing pharmacies the freedom to either honor or ignore MD orders...
umm, first off, im not a conservative...im a libertarian. there is a huge difference. I am pro choice. for legalized marijuana. anti union. pro gay marriage. pro immigration. anti war. against english being the official language. i am pro freedom. You are right, freedom can be abused. but why should we restrict freedom for all because of what MIGHT happen?
and this statement you made "so if we are free to choose something or act in a specific way, and we choose to oppress others or force our views on them, we will end up with a greater measure of freedom and equality?? :? :? " ---- makes absolutely zero sense. one of the few things the govt should do is protect others from being oppressed. No one in this country is being oppressed right now,,,,,except maybe American Indians.
RC, SoDak 1998 - KC 2000 - Council Bluffs IA 2003 - Fargo ND 2003 - St. Paul MN 2003 - Alpine Valley 2003 - St Louis MO 2004 - Kissimmee FLA 2004 - Winnipeg 2005 - Thunder Bay 2005 - Chicago 2006 - Grand Rapids MI 2006 - Denver CO 2006 - Lollapalooza 2007 - Bonnaroo 2008 - Austin City Limits 2009 - Los Angeles 2009 - KC 2010 - St Louis MO 2010 - PJ20 Night 1 - PJ20 Night 2
your position in this thread is just your vision of morality against mine and most others in this thread.
right, but you want to use govt as a vessel to support your morality.... i dont.
if i was prolife and an employer and was forced to enable something that goes against my religion, compromising MY morals, isnt that oppression of religion?
i happen to want you to be free to do what it is that you think is best in your life. I just ask for the same.
Post edited by WaveRyder on
RC, SoDak 1998 - KC 2000 - Council Bluffs IA 2003 - Fargo ND 2003 - St. Paul MN 2003 - Alpine Valley 2003 - St Louis MO 2004 - Kissimmee FLA 2004 - Winnipeg 2005 - Thunder Bay 2005 - Chicago 2006 - Grand Rapids MI 2006 - Denver CO 2006 - Lollapalooza 2007 - Bonnaroo 2008 - Austin City Limits 2009 - Los Angeles 2009 - KC 2010 - St Louis MO 2010 - PJ20 Night 1 - PJ20 Night 2
No one in this country is being oppressed right now
:roll: explain yourself?
RC, SoDak 1998 - KC 2000 - Council Bluffs IA 2003 - Fargo ND 2003 - St. Paul MN 2003 - Alpine Valley 2003 - St Louis MO 2004 - Kissimmee FLA 2004 - Winnipeg 2005 - Thunder Bay 2005 - Chicago 2006 - Grand Rapids MI 2006 - Denver CO 2006 - Lollapalooza 2007 - Bonnaroo 2008 - Austin City Limits 2009 - Los Angeles 2009 - KC 2010 - St Louis MO 2010 - PJ20 Night 1 - PJ20 Night 2
Fascism : a philosophy that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government.
this is what you people are arguing.
RC, SoDak 1998 - KC 2000 - Council Bluffs IA 2003 - Fargo ND 2003 - St. Paul MN 2003 - Alpine Valley 2003 - St Louis MO 2004 - Kissimmee FLA 2004 - Winnipeg 2005 - Thunder Bay 2005 - Chicago 2006 - Grand Rapids MI 2006 - Denver CO 2006 - Lollapalooza 2007 - Bonnaroo 2008 - Austin City Limits 2009 - Los Angeles 2009 - KC 2010 - St Louis MO 2010 - PJ20 Night 1 - PJ20 Night 2
Thanks for the explanation, just what I was lookinfg for....
Until people learn that a democracy is run by "them" not the bureacracy we will have severe glimpses of Fascism within our own borders. Its easy to hide power from people and make them feel hopeless. Take your power back as a person.
I just think your interpretation of reality is so far off base that it's kind of comical.
you didnt explain anything.
But, to your post, i was thinking the same thing. What do you do for a living? What did you study in college?
RC, SoDak 1998 - KC 2000 - Council Bluffs IA 2003 - Fargo ND 2003 - St. Paul MN 2003 - Alpine Valley 2003 - St Louis MO 2004 - Kissimmee FLA 2004 - Winnipeg 2005 - Thunder Bay 2005 - Chicago 2006 - Grand Rapids MI 2006 - Denver CO 2006 - Lollapalooza 2007 - Bonnaroo 2008 - Austin City Limits 2009 - Los Angeles 2009 - KC 2010 - St Louis MO 2010 - PJ20 Night 1 - PJ20 Night 2
I just think your interpretation of reality is so far off base that it's kind of comical.
you didnt explain anything.
But, to your post, i was thinking the same thing. What do you do for a living? What did you study in college?
I didn't take the time to address your question more thoroughly because you haven't bothered to really answer any of my questions.
And now I can only assume from your previous posts that you want to know about my job and education so you can further convince yourself that you're smarter than me and my perspective isn't valid. But sure... I'll bite. I got my undergrad degree in Women Studies (which is an interdisciplinary field that includes political science, by the way). In a few weeks I'll have my Master of Public Health. I work at a university, running a women's health program (where we train doctors, care for patients, do research, and study health policy). And you?
An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.
The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan". All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A.... (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).
After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little..
The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else. To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. It could not be any simpler than that.
Remember, there IS a test coming up. The 2012 elections.
Thought id share this story.
(Ill respond to above posts after work)
RC, SoDak 1998 - KC 2000 - Council Bluffs IA 2003 - Fargo ND 2003 - St. Paul MN 2003 - Alpine Valley 2003 - St Louis MO 2004 - Kissimmee FLA 2004 - Winnipeg 2005 - Thunder Bay 2005 - Chicago 2006 - Grand Rapids MI 2006 - Denver CO 2006 - Lollapalooza 2007 - Bonnaroo 2008 - Austin City Limits 2009 - Los Angeles 2009 - KC 2010 - St Louis MO 2010 - PJ20 Night 1 - PJ20 Night 2
I just think your interpretation of reality is so far off base that it's kind of comical.
you didnt explain anything.
But, to your post, i was thinking the same thing. What do you do for a living? What did you study in college?
I didn't take the time to address your question more thoroughly because you haven't bothered to really answer any of my questions.
And now I can only assume from your previous posts that you want to know about my job and education so you can further convince yourself that you're smarter than me and my perspective isn't valid. But sure... I'll bite. I got my undergrad degree in Women Studies (which is an interdisciplinary field that includes political science, by the way). In a few weeks I'll have my Master of Public Health. I work at a university, running a women's health program (where we train doctors, care for patients, do research, and study health policy). And you?
i studied poly sci and constitutional law while in college. Ill leave it at that. If really interested in my employment, you can dig through my older posts. I only ask what you do for a living/studied to see if you have any background knowledge in the constitution and property rights. Most people that put groups over individuals dont.
RC, SoDak 1998 - KC 2000 - Council Bluffs IA 2003 - Fargo ND 2003 - St. Paul MN 2003 - Alpine Valley 2003 - St Louis MO 2004 - Kissimmee FLA 2004 - Winnipeg 2005 - Thunder Bay 2005 - Chicago 2006 - Grand Rapids MI 2006 - Denver CO 2006 - Lollapalooza 2007 - Bonnaroo 2008 - Austin City Limits 2009 - Los Angeles 2009 - KC 2010 - St Louis MO 2010 - PJ20 Night 1 - PJ20 Night 2
An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.
The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan". All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A.... (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).
After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little..
The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else. To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. It could not be any simpler than that.
Remember, there IS a test coming up. The 2012 elections.
Thought id share this story.
(Ill respond to above posts after work)
This spam email is a crock of shit. Obama is far from being a socialist. If he lived in Canada, Obama would be the leader of the conservative party.
I want so badly for Ron Paul to do well based on his foreign policy alone. But it's people like you that have no grasp of how a hybrid of socialism and capitalism can work. Do you really not think we have rich people in Canada of Germany because we have socialized heath care or higher tax rates on the wealthy???
You can study the constitution and American history all you want. But at some point you have to get past that and broaden your knowledge
I'm not saying any other society is a perfect one. But with the resources, wealth, and economy America has, it's a shame to see such a great nation going down the toilet.
i studied poly sci and constitutional law while in college. Ill leave it at that. If really interested in my employment, you can dig through my older posts. I only ask what you do for a living/studied to see if you have any background knowledge in the constitution and property rights. Most people that put groups over individuals dont.
I don't put groups over individuals. You just don't understand my position.
Any why're you gonna "leave it at that," unless you have some reason to not answer your own question? Anyone can "study" poli sci and the constitution and property rights. You still don't have any reason to believe that I have no background knowledge in these things and I have no real reason to believe that you do. I'm not going to dig through your fucking posts. Why didn't you dig through my posts if you wanted to know about my education and employement? :roll:
An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.
The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan". All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A.... (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).
After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little..
The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else. To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. It could not be any simpler than that.
Remember, there IS a test coming up. The 2012 elections.
Thought id share this story.
(Ill respond to above posts after work)
Funny, up here in Canada we have government health care and a strong social safety net, yet people still work hard. I believe this is the same in socialist countries.
A more apt analogy would be: Nobody would fail but those who do well would still receive a higher grade than those who do not.
Hmm..
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.
The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan". All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A.... (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).
After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little..
The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else. To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. It could not be any simpler than that.
Remember, there IS a test coming up. The 2012 elections.
Thought id share this story.
(Ill respond to above posts after work)
Funny, up here in Canada we have government health care and a strong social safety net, yet people still work hard. I believe this is the same in socialist countries.
A more apt analogy would be: Nobody would fail but those who do well would still receive a higher grade than those who do not.
Hmm..
its a good theory.
RC, SoDak 1998 - KC 2000 - Council Bluffs IA 2003 - Fargo ND 2003 - St. Paul MN 2003 - Alpine Valley 2003 - St Louis MO 2004 - Kissimmee FLA 2004 - Winnipeg 2005 - Thunder Bay 2005 - Chicago 2006 - Grand Rapids MI 2006 - Denver CO 2006 - Lollapalooza 2007 - Bonnaroo 2008 - Austin City Limits 2009 - Los Angeles 2009 - KC 2010 - St Louis MO 2010 - PJ20 Night 1 - PJ20 Night 2
Comments
i completely disagree with waveryder at every turn....
religion should have no bearing over reproductive health. and should have no say in health care at all...period...
that would be like me saying as an oncologist that i can not treat you until it has been proven that god has forsaken you....
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
you are missing the point. Forcing a private employer to offer a specific type of coverage is denying that company property rights. Religion is not a big deal to me. I am pro choice. I am pro choice when it comes to everything and the govt should not be telling individuals or businesses how to go about there day to day lives and operations. The choice for coverage types still lies in the hands of individuals.
Somebody posted earlier that employers should have nothing to do with insurance at all and tahts why the system is fundamentally flawed.....I agree. But the way it is now, I will always error on the side of choice.....for all.
Most people just pick and choose when they want to apply the principles of freedom and choice. I however cant and will not decipher.....its a slippery slope. I want to protect liberty for all.
Actually, according to the Affordable Care Act employers of 50 or more people will have to offer health insurance.
Regardless, personal property rights are not absolute; they must be weighed against the harm they cause to others. We all know that real life is not as simple as people just being able to choose we're they work. Choice is relative & many people can't just quit their job every time their company is taken over by someone who doesn't like for other people to use contraception, or get treatment for HIV, or get their newborn circumcised, or receive blood transfusions, or get MMR vaccinations. No one should have the right to step in between a person & his/her doctor and make that person's medical decisions based on his own personal opinion.
You seem to be forgetting, though, that preventive health care saves money.
So this hospital doesn't receive a dime of public funds, then?
And is it not a major provider of health care for its population? If it is, how is it possibly right that a population's primary source of healthcare should be able to deny their patients the preventative care that their doctors say they need?
But you're neglecting to recognize that someone is imposing his/her beliefs on another either way here. You're just deciding which person's beliefs get imposed. So since you believe the employer's beliefs should always trump the emploees' beliefs, then you believe pharmacists should be made to prescribe Plan B, etc even if it violates their own religious beliefs, right? So in that sense you agree with gimme?
So does eating right and exercise, should we also mandate businesses have to provide a gym membership?
Wow, that's kind of condescending. While I totally agree with you that more Americans need to study political science, it's unfounded for you to suggest that the people in this particular conversation have not. I haven't seen anyone say anything that indicates ignorance of the American legal code or the Bill of Rights; we just interpret their applications to this subject differently than you do - as does at least one Harvard-educated former constitutional law professor. So apparently it really is a debate, even among people who have studied the founders & the Constitution. Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean you're smarter than them. So rather than take your all-knowing word for it, I'll leave it up to the Supreme Court to decide what's constitutional. Or are they grossly uneducated compared to you too? :roll:
Right now, every one has a choice. Under the new law, choice is limited.
ill error on the side of choice - pun intended
That's not relevant to my comment. I didn't say it should be mandated because it saves money. I said that because it saves money, it's not really true that it will necessarily hurt the employees financially.
I disagree. I think you're confusing an ideal world with reality.
its not debatable. right now. everyone has a choice. you can choose to opt out of the insurance your employer offers. my employer offers a health plan but i found one individually for cheaper so i went that route. if i were a women and contraceptive coverage was important to me and my employers plan didnt cover it, i could also opt out and find my own plan.
What dont you understand about that. Choice is choice. look up the word in the dictionary and apply definition to "real world" and you'll see I am dead on accurate. you might not like it, but that is reality.
Choice is relative. For example, in some countries the government provides food for children who are starving & whose parents can't afford to feed them, but they'll only feed the children if the mother agrees to sterilization. Then, using logic & rhetoric like yours, they say it's the women's "choice" to get sterilized or not. But when your alternative is to let your kids die, there's really not much choice.
You say everything's fair because people can always choose to quit their jobs if they don't like something, but in reality, that's not a viable option for many people.
Again, I don't know why you have to be so condescending.
so if we are free to choose something or act in a specific way, and we choose to oppress others or force our views on them, we will end up with a greater measure of freedom and equality?? :? :?
with unlimited freedom comes a great amount of responsibility.
freedom, if abused, leads to bad things. and to me, people who would rather do things like ride a motorcycle 90 miles per hour down the highway without a helmet only because they are free to do so is just a case in point.
your position in this thread is just your vision of morality against mine and most others in this thread.
you conservatives who are against abortion and funding things like medicaid and assistance of the poor should possibly re-think your position on abortion and your position allowing pharmacies the freedom to either honor or ignore MD orders...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
umm, first off, im not a conservative...im a libertarian. there is a huge difference. I am pro choice. for legalized marijuana. anti union. pro gay marriage. pro immigration. anti war. against english being the official language. i am pro freedom. You are right, freedom can be abused. but why should we restrict freedom for all because of what MIGHT happen?
and this statement you made "so if we are free to choose something or act in a specific way, and we choose to oppress others or force our views on them, we will end up with a greater measure of freedom and equality?? :? :? " ---- makes absolutely zero sense. one of the few things the govt should do is protect others from being oppressed. No one in this country is being oppressed right now,,,,,except maybe American Indians.
right, but you want to use govt as a vessel to support your morality.... i dont.
if i was prolife and an employer and was forced to enable something that goes against my religion, compromising MY morals, isnt that oppression of religion?
i happen to want you to be free to do what it is that you think is best in your life. I just ask for the same.
:roll: explain yourself?
this is what you people are arguing.
Until people learn that a democracy is run by "them" not the bureacracy we will have severe glimpses of Fascism within our own borders. Its easy to hide power from people and make them feel hopeless. Take your power back as a person.
I just think your interpretation of reality is so far off base that it's kind of comical.
you didnt explain anything.
But, to your post, i was thinking the same thing. What do you do for a living? What did you study in college?
I didn't take the time to address your question more thoroughly because you haven't bothered to really answer any of my questions.
And now I can only assume from your previous posts that you want to know about my job and education so you can further convince yourself that you're smarter than me and my perspective isn't valid. But sure... I'll bite. I got my undergrad degree in Women Studies (which is an interdisciplinary field that includes political science, by the way). In a few weeks I'll have my Master of Public Health. I work at a university, running a women's health program (where we train doctors, care for patients, do research, and study health policy). And you?
The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan". All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A.... (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).
After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little..
The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else. To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. It could not be any simpler than that.
Remember, there IS a test coming up. The 2012 elections.
Thought id share this story.
(Ill respond to above posts after work)
i studied poly sci and constitutional law while in college. Ill leave it at that. If really interested in my employment, you can dig through my older posts. I only ask what you do for a living/studied to see if you have any background knowledge in the constitution and property rights. Most people that put groups over individuals dont.
This spam email is a crock of shit. Obama is far from being a socialist. If he lived in Canada, Obama would be the leader of the conservative party.
I want so badly for Ron Paul to do well based on his foreign policy alone. But it's people like you that have no grasp of how a hybrid of socialism and capitalism can work. Do you really not think we have rich people in Canada of Germany because we have socialized heath care or higher tax rates on the wealthy???
You can study the constitution and American history all you want. But at some point you have to get past that and broaden your knowledge
I'm not saying any other society is a perfect one. But with the resources, wealth, and economy America has, it's a shame to see such a great nation going down the toilet.
I don't put groups over individuals. You just don't understand my position.
Any why're you gonna "leave it at that," unless you have some reason to not answer your own question? Anyone can "study" poli sci and the constitution and property rights. You still don't have any reason to believe that I have no background knowledge in these things and I have no real reason to believe that you do. I'm not going to dig through your fucking posts. Why didn't you dig through my posts if you wanted to know about my education and employement? :roll:
Funny, up here in Canada we have government health care and a strong social safety net, yet people still work hard. I believe this is the same in socialist countries.
A more apt analogy would be: Nobody would fail but those who do well would still receive a higher grade than those who do not.
Hmm..
its a good theory.