Please bring GOD back into our lives!!!!

blueandwhite

catefrances wrote:

when youre trying to sell a religion based on the fact that a particular someone walked the earth, you better make damn sure you can convince the majority that that particular someone 'in fact' did.

Is that a problem? In the US and many other nations, the majority of people actually convinced that Jesus walked the despite a real lack of evidence. I don't think that most people think critically enough to even look at the evidence (or the absence thereof).

Watching atheists and theists debate is like watching two deaf individuals yell at each other across a large room. Nobody is listening. This debate has never been based on facts or reason.

catefrances

blueandwhite wrote:

catefrances wrote:

when youre trying to sell a religion based on the fact that a particular someone walked the earth, you better make damn sure you can convince the majority that that particular someone 'in fact' did.

Is that a problem? In the US and many other nations, the majority of people actually convinced that Jesus walked the despite a real lack of evidence. I don't think that most people think critically enough to even look at the evidence (or the absence thereof).

Watching atheists and theists debate is like watching two deaf individuals yell at each other across a large room. Nobody is listening. This debate has never been based on facts or reason.

lack of reason and facts doesnt seem to be a problem for the christians.

im listening... i just dont believe what theyre saying.

Byrnzie

iamica wrote:

I just wanted to throw something in: the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman army in 70 CE, and thousands of people were killed in a brutal siege. It could be possible that there might have been other documents relating to the life and existence of Jesus that were destroyed when Jerusalem was. It's speculation, but it's possible.

Also - given that literacy rates were low and that Jesus mostly associated with illiterate peasants, this could serve as one explanation for why there are no discovered written accounts of him before Paul's letters (which are roughly dated from the late 40s-60s CE, within 30 years of Jesus' death).

They found the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947, which contained documents dated 1,000 years earlier than the oldest copies of the Old Testament that we had up to that time...I think it's entirely possible that there could be many other undiscovered documents out there. But since the Gospels and Paul's letters were written within 70 years of Jesus' death, I don't think they should necessarily be dismissed.

There are extensive histories of the period written at the time of his supposed existence - the histories of Josephus, for example, which make no mention of him.

Eilian

Byrnzie wrote:

iamica wrote:

I just wanted to throw something in: the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman army in 70 CE, and thousands of people were killed in a brutal siege. It could be possible that there might have been other documents relating to the life and existence of Jesus that were destroyed when Jerusalem was. It's speculation, but it's possible.

Also - given that literacy rates were low and that Jesus mostly associated with illiterate peasants, this could serve as one explanation for why there are no discovered written accounts of him before Paul's letters (which are roughly dated from the late 40s-60s CE, within 30 years of Jesus' death).

They found the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947, which contained documents dated 1,000 years earlier than the oldest copies of the Old Testament that we had up to that time...I think it's entirely possible that there could be many other undiscovered documents out there. But since the Gospels and Paul's letters were written within 70 years of Jesus' death, I don't think they should necessarily be dismissed.

There are extensive histories of the period written at the time of his supposed existence - the histories of Josephus, for example, which make no mention of him.

Not sure about that. Josephus wrote of Jesus, as James' brother, and that some people worshipped him in a work dated 93AD. That's no defense of the myth mind you,...Josephus wasn't born until 37AD.

arq

Eilian wrote:

Not sure about that. Josephus wrote of Jesus, as James' brother, and that some people worshipped him in a work dated 93AD. That's no defense of the myth mind you,...Josephus wasn't born until 37AD.

Double check your sources, it's been known for sometime those were later insertions to the text.

Eilian

arq wrote:

Eilian wrote:

Not sure about that. Josephus wrote of Jesus, as James' brother, and that some people worshipped him in a work dated 93AD. That's no defense of the myth mind you,...Josephus wasn't born until 37AD.

Double check your sources, it's been known for sometime those were later insertions to the text.

Offer up a reference? I'm not being provocative, I'd genuinely love a reliable refutation of that.

Byrnzie

Eilian wrote:

Not sure about that. Josephus wrote of Jesus, as James' brother, and that some people worshipped him in a work dated 93AD. That's no defense of the myth mind you,...Josephus wasn't born until 37AD.

That was a later interpolation by the early Church fathers.


Josephus on Jesus

Josephus is the first non-Christian writer to mention Jesus. He does this in Books 18 and 20 of his Antiquities, from about 93 AD. It is worth giving the reference in Book 18 in full.

'Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ . And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day'

For two centuries no Christian used this passage, although many of them quoted Josephus. For example, Origen quoted Josephus when writing 250,000 words against the pagan writer Celsus, but he never uses this passage even when it would have been most useful. In Chapter 6 of Book 1 of 'Contra Celsum', Origen wrote ' ..."Many shall say to Me in that day, In Thy name we have cast out devils, and done many wonderful works." Whether Celsus omitted this from intentional malignity, or from ignorance, I do not know..." Would not Origen have loved to show Josephus as writing that Jesus performed wonderful works?

In chapter 67 Origen quotes Celsus as follows '...this Jew of Celsus.... continues: "The old mythological fables, which attributed a divine origin to Perseus, and Amphion, and Aeacus, and Minos, were not believed by us. Nevertheless, that they might not appear unworthy of credit, they represented the deeds of these personages as great and wonderful, and truly beyond the power of man; but what hast thou done that is noble or wonderful either in deed or in word?' Wouldn't Origen have loved to answer Celsus's taunt by pointing out that the renowned Jewish historian Josephus said Jesus performed wonderful works.

It is admitted that the passage of Josephus was tampered with by Christians. Strictly speaking, this rules it out altogether as evidence. If a prosecution lawyer in a court case tried to introduce evidence that had been tampered with by prosecution witnesses, that evidence would be rejected. However, let us examine the claim that we can tell in this short paragraph by looking at the style, which phrases are Josephan and which are Christian interpolations. In passing I note that many Christians deny that we can tell by looking at the style that Paul did not write 1 or 2 Timothy, Titus or Ephesians, although there we have whole letters to work with, not just a few phrases.

It is worth pointing out that any Christian scribe who had just copied out 17 books of Josephus would be familiar with his style and easily able to express Christian thoughts in Josephan language.

Josephus only uses the phrase 'a wise man' about Solomon and Daniel. Would a first-century Pharisee bracket a crucified criminal with legendary kings and prophets? It was Christian writers who compared Jesus to Solomon (Matthew 12:42) and praised the wisdom of Jesus (Luke 2:46-52)

Josephus only used the phrase wonderful works about Elisha. As your email pointed out it was Christians who saw parallels between Jesus and Elijah and Elisha.

In Mark 6:2 , Jews praise the wisdom and mighty works of Jesus. Can we be sure that Josephus's 'wise man' and 'wonderful works' must be genuine as no Christian interpolator would have had any motive to portray Josephus the way the Gospels say Jews regarded Jesus? I doubt it.

Josephus's phrase 'the principal men' (ton proton andron) is mirrored in Luke 19:47 - 'the leaders among the people' (hoi protoi)

The passage of Josephus first appears in 'Ecclesiastical History' by Eusebius in about 320 AD. Eusebius also includes clearly fake letters by Jesus himself. Another quote of Josephus by Eusebius is especially interesting , as we can see how Eusebius would doctor quotes to make them support Christian writings .

Josephus wrote in Antiquities Book 19 Section 346 'But as he presently afterwards looked up, he saw an owl sitting on a certain rope over his head, and immediately understood that this bird was the messenger (Greek 'Angelos') of ill tidings...' Eusebius in his History (2.10) omits the words 'boubona - epi schoiniou tinos' (ie an owl on a certain rope) and retains only the 'angelos' or messenger. As it stands in Eusebius, the 'quote' of Josephus appears to support Acts 12:23 which mentions an 'angelos', but naturally does not say this messenger was an owl.

Eusebius is the first person to say that Josephus referred to 'the tribe of Christians' . Eusebius also said Tertullian referred to the tribe of Christians. He did not. Eusebius also said Trajan referred to the tribe of Christians. He did not.

To sum up, Josephus's mention of Jesus was unknown for two centuries, is admitted even by Christians to be tampered with and first appears in the work of somebody who produced forged letters of Jesus, doctored quotes of Josephus, and lied about one of the very phrases found in the Testimonium when saying that other ancient writers used it. Almost every phrase expresses Christian, not Jewish, beliefs about Jesus.

Eilian

Byrnzie wrote:

Eilian wrote:

Not sure about that. Josephus wrote of Jesus, as James' brother, and that some people worshipped him in a work dated 93AD. That's no defense of the myth mind you,...Josephus wasn't born until 37AD.

That was a later interpolation by the early Church fathers.


Josephus on Jesus

Josephus is the first non-Christian writer to mention Jesus. He does this in Books 18 and 20 of his Antiquities, from about 93 AD. It is worth giving the reference in Book 18 in full.

'Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ . And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day'

For two centuries no Christian used this passage, although many of them quoted Josephus. For example, Origen quoted Josephus when writing 250,000 words against the pagan writer Celsus, but he never uses this passage even when it would have been most useful. In Chapter 6 of Book 1 of 'Contra Celsum', Origen wrote ' ..."Many shall say to Me in that day, In Thy name we have cast out devils, and done many wonderful works." Whether Celsus omitted this from intentional malignity, or from ignorance, I do not know..." Would not Origen have loved to show Josephus as writing that Jesus performed wonderful works?

In chapter 67 Origen quotes Celsus as follows '...this Jew of Celsus.... continues: "The old mythological fables, which attributed a divine origin to Perseus, and Amphion, and Aeacus, and Minos, were not believed by us. Nevertheless, that they might not appear unworthy of credit, they represented the deeds of these personages as great and wonderful, and truly beyond the power of man; but what hast thou done that is noble or wonderful either in deed or in word?' Wouldn't Origen have loved to answer Celsus's taunt by pointing out that the renowned Jewish historian Josephus said Jesus performed wonderful works.

It is admitted that the passage of Josephus was tampered with by Christians. Strictly speaking, this rules it out altogether as evidence. If a prosecution lawyer in a court case tried to introduce evidence that had been tampered with by prosecution witnesses, that evidence would be rejected. However, let us examine the claim that we can tell in this short paragraph by looking at the style, which phrases are Josephan and which are Christian interpolations. In passing I note that many Christians deny that we can tell by looking at the style that Paul did not write 1 or 2 Timothy, Titus or Ephesians, although there we have whole letters to work with, not just a few phrases.

It is worth pointing out that any Christian scribe who had just copied out 17 books of Josephus would be familiar with his style and easily able to express Christian thoughts in Josephan language.

Josephus only uses the phrase 'a wise man' about Solomon and Daniel. Would a first-century Pharisee bracket a crucified criminal with legendary kings and prophets? It was Christian writers who compared Jesus to Solomon (Matthew 12:42) and praised the wisdom of Jesus (Luke 2:46-52)

Josephus only used the phrase wonderful works about Elisha. As your email pointed out it was Christians who saw parallels between Jesus and Elijah and Elisha.

In Mark 6:2 , Jews praise the wisdom and mighty works of Jesus. Can we be sure that Josephus's 'wise man' and 'wonderful works' must be genuine as no Christian interpolator would have had any motive to portray Josephus the way the Gospels say Jews regarded Jesus? I doubt it.

Josephus's phrase 'the principal men' (ton proton andron) is mirrored in Luke 19:47 - 'the leaders among the people' (hoi protoi)

The passage of Josephus first appears in 'Ecclesiastical History' by Eusebius in about 320 AD. Eusebius also includes clearly fake letters by Jesus himself. Another quote of Josephus by Eusebius is especially interesting , as we can see how Eusebius would doctor quotes to make them support Christian writings .

Josephus wrote in Antiquities Book 19 Section 346 'But as he presently afterwards looked up, he saw an owl sitting on a certain rope over his head, and immediately understood that this bird was the messenger (Greek 'Angelos') of ill tidings...' Eusebius in his History (2.10) omits the words 'boubona - epi schoiniou tinos' (ie an owl on a certain rope) and retains only the 'angelos' or messenger. As it stands in Eusebius, the 'quote' of Josephus appears to support Acts 12:23 which mentions an 'angelos', but naturally does not say this messenger was an owl.

Eusebius is the first person to say that Josephus referred to 'the tribe of Christians' . Eusebius also said Tertullian referred to the tribe of Christians. He did not. Eusebius also said Trajan referred to the tribe of Christians. He did not.

To sum up, Josephus's mention of Jesus was unknown for two centuries, is admitted even by Christians to be tampered with and first appears in the work of somebody who produced forged letters of Jesus, doctored quotes of Josephus, and lied about one of the very phrases found in the Testimonium when saying that other ancient writers used it. Almost every phrase expresses Christian, not Jewish, beliefs about Jesus.

Nice, thanks for that.

Eilian

"is admitted even by Christians to be tampered with"

If you had a book reference with an admission of tampering from a Christian Historian I'd be delighted,...the relatives I debate with will squirm out of the smallest plot-hole.

ONCE DEVIDED

Pope Prius edited the bible in the 16 century
So it cannot be used asroof of anything other than opinion

pandora

Byrnzie wrote:

pandora wrote:

I feel a very real kinship to Jesus though and after watching a recent documentary
feel he was an amazing man.

Cool. I didn't realize they had video camera's in the first century A.D. Did he have blue eyes and blond hair like in all the paintings of him?

no it was authentic heritage based on the town he lived and a skull that was found
in that area ... then a computer generation and an actor who resembled that.

Can't find a pic of the actor used for reenactments

but here a pic of the young actor Jesus

pandora

markin ball wrote:

pandora wrote:

It is true there is no evidence at the moment that comes from Jesus' lifetime
that he existed at all.
But this was also true for John the Baptist until just recently
and other poor preachers at that time. Why should there be?

I don't know a lot about religious history but feel this is probably not unusual.
Not to be disrespectful, but during his lifetime Jesus was not someone
who they would write about. His time was short though he touched many with
his new beliefs. These beliefs, a new hope for the down trodden, one God and a heaven
to reward those who have suffered awaits us all.
His life stories were passed down through the generations and chronicled
a century and a half later. For me that is proof enough he existed.

A cave was found that some suspect was John the Baptist
place of worship but of course some are disputing. This 8 years ago or so.

There will always be disputing and this is where people find their faith or not.

I have not found that faith as of yet in my life but perhaps one day.

I feel a very real kinship to Jesus though and after watching a recent documentary
feel he was an amazing man. He stays with me.

Whether he was just a man or whether he was sent here
by God to teach and was given miracles ...and I do believe in miracles!
I don't know
but I know God and God's love just as Jesus did and as he taught.

Why do you believe in miracles?

Because of April 10, 1996 ...

but I won't be explaining more

suffice to say miracles happen everyday!

Hugh Freaking Dillon

well, you'd think that if there was a guy walking around healing people with his bare hands and turning water into wine, someone would have jotted something down about this guy.

pandora

this was 2000+ years ago!

besides that... there were many faith healers ...
gosh from this documentary it was just a horrible time but so much like today still...
I couldn't help feeling that.

And Jesus came to bring beautiful hope, faith to help get these people through
horrible lives...
so much injustice, cruelty, violence.
And the taxes the poor paid so the rich got richer, the opulence sickening.

He spoke of another life beyond earthly life where all those that had been hurt
and oppressed would have their own kingdom and be rewarded.
And those oppressing, killing, would be punished.

It was just what they needed, gee its just what many still need most especially those
who live lives of suffering.

He just wanted to help. He wanted others to know what he knew.
He wanted them to know the love, the love from God. It is just what they needed.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

pandora wrote:

this was 2000+ years ago!

I agree Pandora, that the message is clearly very positive, but your statement above is precisely why people have a hard time believing it. we hardly believe anything humanity believed from that long ago, especially something without any hard evidence to back it.

iamica

Josephus also mentioned John the Baptist's execution in his Antiquities: 18.5.2. 116-119.

The passage concerning Jesus in Josephus' Antiquities is controversial; most scholars believe that it was inserted at a later date.

Tacitus mentioned Emperor Nero's persecution of Christians in 64 CE and a man named "Christus" in his Annals, but these were written circa 116 CE:

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed."

Thallus wrote a history of the ancient Eastern Mediterranean world up through his own time (circa 52 CE), but his work has only survived in citations by others. Julius Africanus (c. 160-240 CE) quoted a passage of his that described an earthquake and a total eclipse of the sun simultaneously (Extant Writings, 18).

The Babylonian Talmud, compiled from the 1st-5th centuries CE, mentioned a man named "Yeshu" who was hanged on the eve of Passover (Sanhedrin 43a).

Lucian of Samostata (c. 125-180 CE) wrote about a man that the Christians worshiped. His writing was from the 2nd century, so it's not contemporary to when Jesus lived, but it's noteworthy: "He was second only to that one whom they still worship today, the man in Palestine who was crucified because he brought this new form of initiation into the world...Having convinced themselves that they are immortal and will live forever, the poor wretches despise death and most willingly give themselves to it. Moreover, that first lawgiver of theirs persuaded them that they are all brothers the moment they transgress and deny the Greek gods and begin worshiping that crucified sophist and living by his laws." (The Death of Peregrine)

So there are ancient references, but most of the secular references were, at the earliest, written in the early 100s CE.

markin ball

pandora wrote:

markin ball wrote:

pandora wrote:

It is true there is no evidence at the moment that comes from Jesus' lifetime
that he existed at all.
But this was also true for John the Baptist until just recently
and other poor preachers at that time. Why should there be?

I don't know a lot about religious history but feel this is probably not unusual.
Not to be disrespectful, but during his lifetime Jesus was not someone
who they would write about. His time was short though he touched many with
his new beliefs. These beliefs, a new hope for the down trodden, one God and a heaven
to reward those who have suffered awaits us all.
His life stories were passed down through the generations and chronicled
a century and a half later. For me that is proof enough he existed.

A cave was found that some suspect was John the Baptist
place of worship but of course some are disputing. This 8 years ago or so.

There will always be disputing and this is where people find their faith or not.

I have not found that faith as of yet in my life but perhaps one day.

I feel a very real kinship to Jesus though and after watching a recent documentary
feel he was an amazing man. He stays with me.

Whether he was just a man or whether he was sent here
by God to teach and was given miracles ...and I do believe in miracles!
I don't know
but I know God and God's love just as Jesus did and as he taught.

Why do you believe in miracles?

Because of April 10, 1996 ...

but I won't be explaining more

suffice to say miracles happen everyday!

Like what? I've never experienced a miracle. Please share.

pandora

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

pandora wrote:

this was 2000+ years ago!

I agree Pandora, that the message is clearly very positive, but your statement above is precisely why people have a hard time believing it. we hardly believe anything humanity believed from that long ago, especially something without any hard evidence to back it.

I agree, very hard to believe and it is hard for me also, why I am not a Christian.
But its not hard for some and for me personally, I can understand why that is.

There is so much that is hard to do in our lives, like even to be kind and respectful
of each other, through those hard things comes extreme satisfaction of
just doing the right thing for the sake of another.

A positive message is what Christ gave me, not religion in my case, but the reinforcement
of my belief in God and Gods love.

Jesus 'got it' but what was done with it by man 2000 years ago fits in that time,
in my opinion.
Now it has evolved and will keep evolving, hopefully, in the spirit of love for all.

pandora

markin ball wrote:

Like what? I've never experienced a miracle. Please share.

imagine what would it take for you, I was an atheist, to believe in God
and perhaps you will have your answer.

satansbed

pandora wrote:

markin ball wrote:

Like what? I've never experienced a miracle. Please share.

imagine what would it take for you, I was an atheist, to believe in God
and perhaps you will have your answer.

or you know you could just tell us...