You smoke? No Can Hire...

green mountain man

I think to banish tobacco from society will be a long process. Along with dietary concerns, I think we need to make good choices easier to make. I agree with you that the drug war is a total failure, that causes more harm than good. I am all for freedom of choice. Adding cigarettes to the list will not help
I did not mean to imply stopping smoking through government intervention . If the govt. really cared they would not have directed millions of funds gained through tobacco co. lawsuits to other programs.
This is a very complicated issue that needs creative solutions This forum is great for learning. Thanks for your input

october22

green mountain man wrote:

I think to banish tobacco from society will be a long process. Along with dietary concerns, I think we need to make good choices easier to make. I agree with you that the drug war is a total failure, that causes more harm than good. I am all for freedom of choice. Adding cigarettes to the list will not help
I did not mean to imply stopping smoking through government intervention . If the govt. really cared they would not have directed millions of funds gained through tobacco co. lawsuits to other programs.
This is a very complicated issue that needs creative solutions This forum is great for learning. Thanks for your input

No doubt, man. You seem like a reasonable dude. Thought you were implying government mandates. Happy to read you're not. Also, yes, I too have learned a lot on this board.

keeponrockin

october22 wrote:

whoa, slow down here people. There is a VERY big difference between types of smoking. Cigarette smokers taking breaks whenever they choose has always annoyed me but a company telling people they won't hire them if they are using a legal product on their own time, while not on the clock; well that is just plain wrong.

I smoke cigars. I don't do it at work, before work, or during any breaks. I smoke in my free time. Enjoying fine tobacco has been one of the greatest pleasures of my life. I can say with confidence that this is true of millions before me as well throughout it's discovery and use over the ages in the Americas. Tobacco isn't some evil product. In fact, some argue that quality tobacco with no additives smoked in moderation may actually have health benefits through relaxation, meditation and socialization. I've made countless friends sharing a smoke and my life is better for it. However because of people like most of you in this thread, I have to pay a 75% state tax plus additional city tax every time I want to buy a cigar in New York. That's some criminal shit. Sure, criticize the stuff with fiberglass and chemical additives designed to get you hooked (ie: cigarettes) all you want but don't be so hasty to call for the government to ban something people choose to do. After all, your choices could be next.

As someone who smokes pot, already happened.

catefrances

october22 wrote:

whoa, slow down here people. There is a VERY big difference between types of smoking. Cigarette smokers taking breaks whenever they choose has always annoyed me but a company telling people they won't hire them if they are using a legal product on their own time, while not on the clock; well that is just plain wrong...

i agree with you here.


atm we have an television advertisement here for insurance thats able to be purchased over the phone. and the only question they apparently ask is do you smoke? and by answering no youll be sweet. and i think well thats got to be bullshit cause i dont smoke but if i tell you that of the 4 members of my mothers immediate family that have died have died of cancer im pretty certain you wont be thrilled and ill be hit with premiums accordingly. advertising is lies.

Red Mosquito75

puremagic wrote:

All these reasons and excuses why it is ok to go after smokers, yet no one stated the obvious. STOP MAKING THE PRODUCTS.

The government has proven that the products are dangerous to our health.

The medical profession has proven that the products are dangerous to our health.

Society has concurred that the products are a danger to our health directly and second handed.

If a button falls off a toy and a child chokes to death, that toy is pulled from every store in the country. We have people dying everyday from tobacco related products and nothing is being done except blaming the user. Even with cocaine, heroin, crack, meth, and yes marijuana, the DEA and other law enforcement a) will destroy the product, b) will attempt to fine and prosecution more than just the user.


Great Point...If smoking was made illegal years ago we wouldn't have all the problems we have concerning smoking today. Alcohol is far worse then smoking but socially accepted.

So what's problem!!! Why not go after the makers and ban the sale and use of these products in the US? If you're not going to go after the maker of these tobacco products because you hold the user responsible for their actions - in the case of the button,

the parent is fully responsible for the death of their child because the parent who brought the toy, saw the warning about small choking parts and still gave the toy to the child.

he still stands

just a thought....

why not have the policy that "you can work here if you're a smoker, you just can't be on our health insurance."

isn't that what this is about? the cost of health insurance? I can see why that is a concern, especially for small businesses.

I think that's a legitimate concern. It's not like they're discriminating based on religion or color or sex.

october22

he still stands wrote:

just a thought....

why not have the policy that "you can work here if you're a smoker, you just can't be on our health insurance."

isn't that what this is about? the cost of health insurance? I can see why that is a concern, especially for small businesses.

I think that's a legitimate concern. It's not like they're discriminating based on religion or color or sex.

Why not just hire all women in that case? They live longer than men on average. Probably cost less in their lifetime's overall.

The whole thing is ridiculous. Most workers contribute to their health benefits. Why not adjust everyones' individually according to the decision of the insurer? To disqualify someone for employment for something they do in their own time should be illegal.

But this only highlights the problem with insurance in this country. Insurance should not be tied to employment! This entire thread must seem like it's from another planet to readers outside the US.

october22

Red Mosquito75 wrote:

puremagic wrote:

All these reasons and excuses why it is ok to go after smokers, yet no one stated the obvious. STOP MAKING THE PRODUCTS.

The government has proven that the products are dangerous to our health.

The medical profession has proven that the products are dangerous to our health.

Society has concurred that the products are a danger to our health directly and second handed.

If a button falls off a toy and a child chokes to death, that toy is pulled from every store in the country. We have people dying everyday from tobacco related products and nothing is being done except blaming the user. Even with cocaine, heroin, crack, meth, and yes marijuana, the DEA and other law enforcement a) will destroy the product, b) will attempt to fine and prosecution more than just the user.


Great Point...If smoking was made illegal years ago we wouldn't have all the problems we have concerning smoking today. Alcohol is far worse then smoking but socially accepted.

So what's problem!!! Why not go after the makers and ban the sale and use of these products in the US? If you're not going to go after the maker of these tobacco products because you hold the user responsible for their actions - in the case of the button,

the parent is fully responsible for the death of their child because the parent who brought the toy, saw the warning about small choking parts and still gave the toy to the child.

Total insanity.

Nanny-state insanity.

I'm shocked at how many of you aren't thinking through this argument further.

Byrnzie

Red Mosquito75 wrote:

Nicotine is a drug.

So is coffee.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: There is more personal freedom in China than there is in America.

Byrnzie

MayDay Malone wrote:

State run healthcare. This is only the beginning...

Funny you should say that, because in no country with state run healthcare that I know of does nicotine in a persons system determine their eligibility for employment.

Jeanwah

october22 wrote:

whoa, slow down here people. There is a VERY big difference between types of smoking. Cigarette smokers taking breaks whenever they choose has always annoyed me but a company telling people they won't hire them if they are using a legal product on their own time, while not on the clock; well that is just plain wrong.

No kidding. As long as smoking cigarettes is legal, smokers should not be discriminated against. Any company singling out lifestyles for their employees would not be a company I'd ever want to work for. Talk about corporate kool-aid...

he still stands

Byrnzie wrote:

Red Mosquito75 wrote:

Nicotine is a drug.

So is coffee.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: There is more personal freedom in China than there is in America.

wow, that's a scary thought.

all the talk about stopping cigs from being made or making them illegal makes me sick to my stomach. We need to go the complete opposite direction with our thinking.

That said, I can see why employers wouldn't want to hire smokers because their health care costs are so much more expensive, on average. I'm not contradicting myself here with my original statement, in fact I think I'm just extending the principle that we all have our civil liberties and freedom take make our own decisions, including companies.

Companies should be able to hire/fire ANYONE they choose without the nanny state getting involved. It should be up to the people to call out any companies that are discriminatory and with technology/communication as it is, those companies will be punished by the consumer for any unscrupulous practices.

edit; with all that being said, there is no way in hell that the contents of my bladder should EVER be tested by ANYONE. Drug testing should only be a practice for people operating heavy equipment, pilots, etc and ONLY if there is reasonable suspicion.

FiveB247x

I have no problem with this kind of implementation. Health Benefits are costly for any company and they should have some input in the factors which determine the costs that impact it. We as a society should be rewarding/punishing people to be better individually take care of themselves in all aspects which in the long term can benefit or harm the great whole. For those of you who complain about Big Brother or "Nanny State" constantly involving themselves into "personal lives", perhaps you should have a look around society now - the reason they end up always getting involved is because society has become too dumb and selfish to manage on their own. Consumerism, self-interest and gluttony has become the mantras of our culture.. we are not competent enough to just hand over the keys to the car and hope we won't get into an accident. Our health care industry is a mess because we have repeatedly shown we cannot self-monitor ourselves. Big Brother has become a necessary evil because our society has deteriorated and the people within have become so irresponsible. Don't blame big brother...blame the society ..ie the people.

Jeanwah

FiveB247x wrote:

I have no problem with this kind of implementation. Health Benefits are costly for any company and they should have some input in the factors which determine the costs that impact it. We as a society should be rewarding/punishing people to be better individually take care of themselves in all aspects which in the long term can benefit or harm the great whole. For those of you who complain about Big Brother or "Nanny State" constantly involving themselves into "personal lives", perhaps you should have a look around society now - the reason they end up always getting involved is because society has become too dumb and selfish to manage on their own. Consumerism, self-interest and gluttony has become the mantras of our culture.. we are not competent enough to just hand over the keys to the car and hope we won't get into an accident. Our health care industry is a mess because we have repeatedly shown we cannot self-monitor ourselves. Big Brother has become a necessary evil because our society has deteriorated and the people within have become so irresponsible. Don't blame big brother...blame the society ..ie the people.

Just. plain. disturbing that ANYONE would think this way. May as well include any body with existing health issues, everyone who may look slightly overweight to obese, the disabled, etc. then when considering future employees.

he still stands

FiveB247x wrote:

Big Brother has become a necessary evil because our society has deteriorated and the people within have become so irresponsible. Don't blame big brother...blame the society ..ie the people.

that is some seriously dangerous thinking. I'm sorry but I don't even think it's necessary to elaborate.

:(

mookeywrench

Kind of strange....why not just ban them from participating in their health plan?

he still stands

mookeywrench wrote:

Kind of strange....why not just ban them from participating in their health plan?

that's what I said. You can't discriminate when it comes to hiring, but it is just a fact that it costs companies a lot of money if they hire smokers. Just make your health plan for non-smokers, or have a different (more expensive) plan for smokers.

petejm043

These smoking policies are made to discrimante not only against smokers but against the poor. The poor have a higher chance of being a smoker than those in the upper or middle class. Another tool that is being employed by companies to discrimante against the poor is their credit. Once credit standing should have no bearing on their abilty to do a job. Its just another way to keep people down.

FiveB247x

Would you guys think it'd be ok have tiered benefits plans cost-based on your personal health uses, issues or habits which effect your health?

Also, you fail to recognize or fully acknowledge that much of our healthcare issues are self-inflicted problems and not that of heredity. Our healthcare system is based not on preventative medicine and care, but instead the treating the results mostly of which are of people not taking care of themselves. Why is that you are very big on complaining about the notion of the group protecting the betterment of the whole instead of whining about the individual right to do x, y and z when everywhere in society we see time and again people are not responsible, hold zero accountability and want the rest of society to pull that weight? You can hate big brother's intrusiveness, but nowhere do I see any of you talking about the root problems, people not doing their part, and instead expecting the rest of society to accommodate their irresponsibility. This is a good part of why our system is collapsing, because people feel entitled to do as they please regardless of how it effects the rest around them..and in our system, it causes corruption, overspending, massive debts and punishes the masses who try and do the right thing but forces the system to make constant cutbacks as it slowly breaks apart. Immigration, healthcare, social security and several other areas are all in the same boat in this respect. We're inching towards the breaking point in which we can't accommodate the same level of services and care, while racking up the debts as a nation. It's not sustainable and anytime people talk like the conversation we're having, and someone brings up these kinds of points, they're shunned....yet it's the harsh reality we're facing.

ONCE DEVIDED

I live in australia where we have had a healthcare system for a longtime and it has no effect on smoking policy at all
If I was an employer I would ask each applicant if they smoked . If they said yes they wouldn't be getting the job. Simple as that.
Sick of the bludging that comes with it. Completely regardless of health effects.
Every second smoker cannot motivate themselves to put their butts in bins either. It's disgusting