Putting it all in perspective

dimitrispearljam

up

Abe Froman

Paul Andrews wrote:

Abe Froman wrote:

Again, well said Paul. I hope the new year brings your family health and happiness. Maybe one day we can have a beer while watching the greatest live band around!

Abe, you bring the sausages and I'll bring the beer - Aussie of course. I assume your sausages are straight from Chicago?

Ha! St. Louis actually. Just love that scene of the movie. Cheers!

bicyclejoe

Perspective:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45705894/ns/weather/

Paul Andrews

bicyclejoe wrote:

Perspective:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45705894/ns/weather/

Exactly.

The Oracle

Paul Andrews wrote:

bicyclejoe wrote:

Perspective:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45705894/ns/weather/

Exactly.

Yep, says it all really.

jodiem

Paul Andrews wrote:

Just woke up here in West Australia, reading through the replies. It's really gratifying to see the way my post has been discussed respectfully. I half expected flames :roll:

Some wonderful sense amongst the madness! Thank you Paul!

And from my home state.. good ole West Australians... we are the sensible ones!

LeatherMosquitoMan

I've met Paul, albeit only once, in LA in 2009, and like the guy. I've had nothing but good dealings with him, and Paul, you know what i've been through in the last year, and how the ten club and amazing, caring and wonderful people in this community have helped me and my family out. So i'll back you on everything you said.

-Chris.

Paul Andrews

LeatherMosquitoMan wrote:

I've met Paul, albeit only once, in LA in 2009, and like the guy. I've had nothing but good dealings with him, and Paul, you know what i've been through in the last year, and how the ten club and amazing, caring and wonderful people in this community have helped me and my family out. So i'll back you on everything you said.

-Chris.

Hey Chris, glad to see you're back on your feet - or getting there, I hope my contribution helped in some small way. Hope to catch up with you again on the long road some day, you and people of your ilk is what makes this such a valuable and endearing community (I point blank refuse to say... jamily). Keep on rocking mate - and I fully intend to share a beer or eight with you at another show in the future!

PS How awesome were LA3&4 2009

Suziemay

Evil-Little-Goat wrote:

Do I think that people should be verbally abusive to Mike on Facebook? Hell no!

I've been trying my bestest to stay out of these discussions, but WHAT?!?!?! People were verbally abusing MIKE MCCREADY!!!! Now I'm embarrassed.

And now that I've opened my mouth, completely agree with your post, Paul. Some folks are being hateful and abusive, which is a non-starter for any constructive criticism even if there might be snippets buried somewhere within.

Prayers for your little girl, happy holidays and best wishes for the new year

peacefrompaul

Suziemay wrote:

Evil-Little-Goat wrote:

Do I think that people should be verbally abusive to Mike on Facebook? Hell no!

I've been trying my bestest to stay out of these discussions, but WHAT?!?!?! People were verbally abusing MIKE MCCREADY!!!! Now I'm embarrassed.

And now that I've opened my mouth, completely agree with your post, Paul. Some folks are being hateful and abusive, which is a non-starter for any constructive criticism even if there might be snippets buried somewhere within.

Prayers for your little girl, happy holidays and best wishes for the new year

Yeah I just saw that myself! It's not his fault at all. Sad.

CarolineSays

Thanks Paul.

You and Heisenberg's thread were the only reason I logged on this morning.

All the best, man.

mcready2jam

The forum should be for 10c members only.... that my opinion anyway.

Thanks for your post Paul and I wish you and your family the very best.

GUYS and GIRLS its XMAS!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5h8XGuN ... re=related

vedder_soup

Wow, i have only just seen this now, but it is exactly what i wanted to say!
The sense of entitlement, and subsequent carrying of when things went pairshaped has been rediculous!

The fact that the response to this post has been level headed and reasonable does give me some hope.

Plankton

Great post.

I was so embarrassed reading some of the things on this forum in the last few days, honestly, it actually made me feel a little down about the shows and the kind of people potentially there.

Mikee J

Great post, needed to be said, as did Heisenbergs post too.....

I have been shocked by the way some people react to dissappointent on this board.. I hope these threads helps people to stop and think about whther they are being over the top or being too aggressive and selfish.

coachchris

Thank you for taking the time to write what you did

Merry Christmas to you and yours!

dimitrispearljam

coachchris wrote:

Thank you for taking the time to write what you did

Merry Christmas to you and yours!

and nice to see you here...

Spiritual_Chaos

Nice Post. But I do not agree with everything. I do not think the neghative comments about how 10C have handled this are wrong. I don't think that is the same as pissing on the community, so all your comments about people helping out each other, going to gigs together etc doesn't really have much to do with what people are complaining about. But yeah, great post. About alot of the things that are beautiful about having a fanclub and a community. Still, an esy way to get "virtual hugs" from other tenclubbers - but still in many ways irrelevant.

I do not think the complaints and the "uprorar" has been irrelevent and I understand it completely.

This forum is becoming everything that is wrong with the internet when it used to be a shining light of compassion, fairness and humanity. But now it risks becoming a cess pit of immaturity and puerile shit! And I do not blame the 10 Club staff or leadership.

I think the the response from the forum was a great thing, and what is "great about the internet". people came together, put down their foot and said - we don't deserve this treatment. The few members loosing compassion, fairness and huminaty came from both sides. Most of the people shows it but felt that 10C did not. Something I to a degree agree with.

How many of you bother to phone the 10 Club, or write a polite email before growing virtual testicles the size of basketballs and sprouting you immature bitterness and hate on here. Tough guys behind a keyboard = cowardly douchebags in the real world! I dare all of you haters to start posting using your real names, step out from behind your avatars and put your name to your posts.

i don't know what youy mean with "haters" or if I am a part of that? I do think there is a difference bertween phoning/writing an email and protesting on here together with others. Two different things. I don't think speaking your mind on the forum and in group is something bad. I would say that the uproar on here is what made Curtis coming on. I do not think it was/is a bad thing, not one bit. But hey, post pictures in "Pictures where Eddie looks hot" threads and stuff if you like. I think this is a great place to also show the fanclub what we think on issuies, which happend.

And, I don't know if you refer to me with 'hater". But my name is Emil Gustafsson Ryderup. If you want to know.

Sure, you people have a legitimate gripe - ticketing has been a fiasco, but the ten club/pearl jam did not screw you over, the ten club/pearl jam did not disrespect you and the ten club/pearl jam did not take you for granted. They did their best and for one reason or another, it just was not good enough.

Well, I do not think that the tenclub did "their" best. And that is dealing with the situation. I understand not all screw ups can be anticpiated before hand, even if they have happend every year since 2006... But I do not believe they did their best. It has become a buisness. In some cases a badly run one. That is my belief.

The Ten Club has always treated me well. All my emails have been answered swiftly. All purchases delivered (safely to the other side of the world), and a couple of occasions where I fucked up (and I made a major fuck-up, the size most of you could never dream of making) - they have been sympathetic and fair.

not counting the weird shippoing times, I completely agree with this. The people answering my emails (when they have been answered, which they on some occasions have not been) have been great. But that is not the problem people are talking about, now is it?

But when people start flooding Mike Mcready’s personal facebook page with the bitterness and immature ranting, they have crossed the line in a big way. And then when called out about it they defend their actions! They guy goes public on facebook, tried to connect with fans, let us into small snippets of his life, have some fun and just be an all round nice guy and certain people think it is fun to flood his facebook with their childish bitterness.

i wrote on his wall. No one in the fanclub or from Pearl Jam or their management approached us, the paying fans, att all so I do not think that was wrong in any way? Why are you treating him like a child that are being harrassed on his personal facebook-page. he does not have one to write on. it's an open facebokpage and about him wanting to "conencto with fans" - hey that what we did. We tried to connect with him. And i did this with my real name. But if you think he is a child and we should only write "youre the best ever, see you in amsterdam!!!!!!!" and not "your fanclub isnt working, them and you guys are not saying anything. Fix that" - that is just funny.

I once posted, who among you would welcome someone into your house and then sit by while they kick your dog, call your wife a whore and shit on your carpet – while expecting to be served caviar, dogfish ale and Cuban cigars. An apt metaphor for the behaviour of certain members on the forum of the band they supposedly love.

I do not think this is an apt metaphor. We pay for this "service", and as all other services it should "work". i do not believe it does. But before you ask me to, No I will not leave because I believe it can work and hope that it will. But if I think something I pay for do not work, than I will tell them that. And if it is regarding merchandise I think they have all the resonsabilities as amazon and other sites. Because they - like Mike McCready are not a child. He is a grown man with a fanclub and they are a business organisation.

Shame on all who this applies to – let the flaming begin – unlike some of you I’m man enough to post my name, my picture and stand behind my words.

using a nick and not standing behind the words you write are not the same thing. I stand behind my words, but on here and other message board I use a nick. Most people do.

Paul Andrews

Thank you for this reasoned and rational addition to the debate. Without trying to sound condescending of aloof, this is the kind of discussion and debate that it great!

Spiritual_Chaos wrote:

Nice Post. But I do not agree with everything. I do not think the neghative comments about how 10C have handled this are wrong. I don't think that is the same as pissing on the community, so all your comments about people helping out each other, going to gigs together etc doesn't really have much to do with what people are complaining about. But yeah, great post. About alot of the things that are beautiful about having a fanclub and a community. Still, an esy way to get "virtual hugs" from other tenclubbers - but still in many ways irrelevant.

I do not think the complaints and the "uprorar" has been irrelevent and I understand it completely.

I too understand the uproar and disappointment, in fact, I have been there myself when GA tickets for the Perth 2009 show disappeared quicker than sweets at a child’s party and the system crashed. But what did we do, we respectfully wrote to the ten club and a few hours later, extra tickets were released. Obviously that didn’t/couldn’t happen here and I do not think the negative comments were all wrong either – I’m referring to the abusive comments. There is a better way to handle matters than many people chose in this instance – and the thing is, that better way often get’s better results.

Paul Andrews wrote:

This forum is becoming everything that is wrong with the internet when it used to be a shining light of compassion, fairness and humanity. But now it risks becoming a cess pit of immaturity and puerile shit! And I do not blame the 10 Club staff or leadership.

Spiritual_Chaos wrote:

I think the the response from the forum was a great thing, and what is "great about the internet". people came together, put down their foot and said - we don't deserve this treatment. The few members loosing compassion, fairness and huminaty came from both sides. Most of the people shows it but felt that 10C did not. Something I to a degree agree with.

This forum often shows greatness – even when things are negative – it often shows what is great about the internet - but there is never an excuse for straight out abuse. There is never an excuse for people using the forum as the first point of call for their gripes. I run other web forums for a couple of large organisations and they have made it clear to their members – their forum is not the first point of call for communications like this, it is a place for discussion and urgent matters should be addressed directly to the organisations through other channels – I believe the same applies here. It causes further anger when posts do not receive an official response, but that is often the way message forums work, they do have better things to do than have someone available monitoring forums who is in a position to make an official announcement.

Paul Andrews wrote:

How many of you bother to phone the 10 Club, or write a polite email before growing virtual testicles the size of basketballs and sprouting you immature bitterness and hate on here. Tough guys behind a keyboard = cowardly douchebags in the real world! I dare all of you haters to start posting using your real names, step out from behind your avatars and put your name to your posts.

Spiritual_Chaos wrote:

i don't know what youy mean with "haters" or if I am a part of that? I do think there is a difference bertween phoning/writing an email and protesting on here together with others. Two different things. I don't think speaking your mind on the forum and in group is something bad. I would say that the uproar on here is what made Curtis coming on. I do not think it was/is a bad thing, not one bit. But hey, post pictures in "Pictures where Eddie looks hot" threads and stuff if you like. I think this is a great place to also show the fanclub what we think on issuies, which happend.

And, I don't know if you refer to me with 'hater". But my name is Emil Gustafsson Ryderup. If you want to know.[/quote]

I regret using the term ‘haters’. It was not my term, I just used on that was being commonly bandied around on this forum. It is not the best term, but I was using it to apply to those who added nothing to the issue other than vitriol and aggression. I meant to single no individual out – even though I was talking about a group of individual posters (nice oxymoron there don’t you think). I think people need to examine their posts and behaviours themselves and determine if they are ‘haters’ or not. I don’t want to label anyone, I’m addressing the manner of the communication, not the person.

I don’t contribute to threads about Ed’s hotness or other threads I feel lack the substance I am looking for in my posts, this does is not to say they should not exist, I posted a hell of a lot of digital art on the PJ With Cats thread, so I can be just as lightweight as any. These threads have their place. I also never claimed that the negative comments or complaints don’t havbe their place, it was the manner of these communications and often the sense of entitlement in others – people complaining that PJ is becoming a cash cow and then arguing because not enough of an item was produced! There are occasions where people do appear to just want to be negative for the hell of it.

How people can bring so much rage to a fan forum is beyond me. Save this rage for things that really mater – rage against thje corruption of the political process, rage against the politicians’ inability to tackle climate change, deforestation, whaling, inequality and issues that really matter.

Paul Andrews wrote:

Sure, you people have a legitimate gripe - ticketing has been a fiasco, but the ten club/pearl jam did not screw you over, the ten club/pearl jam did not disrespect you and the ten club/pearl jam did not take you for granted. They did their best and for one reason or another, it just was not good enough.

Spiritual_Chaos wrote:

Well, I do not think that the tenclub did "their" best. And that is dealing with the situation. I understand not all screw ups can be anticpiated before hand, even if they have happend every year since 2006... But I do not believe they did their best. It has become a buisness. In some cases a badly run one. That is my belief.

And you are right to hold whatever opinion you wish, however, it is an opinion and frankly, an opinion that is based in ignorance. In way to many places, people hold their opinions to be statements of fact and hold onto these opinions despite reason, education and logic. None of us really know what goes on inside the ten club, however, after many of the ticket failures there has been examination, there have been upgrades and there have been efforts.

From tweeking the performance of the databases, changing software configurations, to using content delivery networks, to using TM Canada, to using Crowdsurge, efforts have been made and from my perspective (a perspective that includes website and server knowledge), they have tried within their model to make things better. Tim once said that the ten club has its own custom written system to handle ten club matters, our experience does suggest it is not up to the task of mass ticket sales for one reason or another. But to make an ill-informed generalisation that the ten club has not tried is unfair and misleading. It is amazing what a load of superfluous and impatient F5 keystrokes can do to server load in a situation like this. Ticketmaster spend millions on their online system, this is well out of reach of the 10 Club and there are obstacles to using TM for all fan club sales. If there was a way to manage it, I’d be happy to pay TM fees, but this is a model the ten club are trying to avoid.

I really don’t know if ten club is a well run or terribly run business. They don’t appear to have a high staff turn over, they don’t get it wrong in the majority of transactions and they do appear to do as much for their customers as any other business I deal with. You are entitled to your belief – but a belief is a radically different proposition to a statement of fact.

Paul Andrews wrote:

The Ten Club has always treated me well. All my emails have been answered swiftly. All purchases delivered (safely to the other side of the world), and a couple of occasions where I fucked up (and I made a major fuck-up, the size most of you could never dream of making) - they have been sympathetic and fair.

Spiritual_Chaos wrote:

not counting the weird shippoing times, I completely agree with this. The people answering my emails (when they have been answered, which they on some occasions have not been) have been great. But that is not the problem people are talking about, now is it?

No it is not the subject we are talking with, but it does provide context and is the basis for my thesis. It is difficult to believe than an organisation that gets it very right in most of their dealings would simply show callous disregard in the one area of their business that affects fans the most.

Paul Andrews wrote:

But when people start flooding Mike Mcready’s personal facebook page with the bitterness and immature ranting, they have crossed the line in a big way. And then when called out about it they defend their actions! They guy goes public on facebook, tried to connect with fans, let us into small snippets of his life, have some fun and just be an all round nice guy and certain people think it is fun to flood his facebook with their childish bitterness.

Spiritual_Chaos wrote:

i wrote on his wall. No one in the fanclub or from Pearl Jam or their management approached us, the paying fans, att all so I do not think that was wrong in any way? Why are you treating him like a child that are being harrassed on his personal facebook-page. he does not have one to write on. it's an open facebokpage and about him wanting to "conencto with fans" - hey that what we did. We tried to connect with him. And i did this with my real name. But if you think he is a child and we should only write "youre the best ever, see you in amsterdam!!!!!!!" and not "your fanclub isnt working, them and you guys are not saying anything. Fix that" - that is just funny.

I think we’ll always differ here, but I should also make a profound distinction. If someone had started one thread on Mike’s wall about the ticketing issue and others had added to the original post – and used respect and understanding rather than some of the vitriolic flooding that ensured it probably would have been fine. But his wall was flooded and a lot of what was posted was unfair, uncalled for and over the top. He was being harassed on his facebook page and it was the wrong place to air those gripes. Flooding is wrong and totally counter productive. I don’t think you should only post ‘suck up’ posts on his forum, but I think what ensued on his wall was inappropriate and mostly rude. As I recall, you, I and one other person discussed this point respectfully.

Paul Andrews wrote:

I once posted, who among you would welcome someone into your house and then sit by while they kick your dog, call your wife a whore and shit on your carpet – while expecting to be served caviar, dogfish ale and Cuban cigars. An apt metaphor for the behaviour of certain members on the forum of the band they supposedly love.

Spiritual_Chaos wrote:

I do not think this is an apt metaphor. We pay for this "service", and as all other services it should "work". i do not believe it does. But before you ask me to, No I will not leave because I believe it can work and hope that it will. But if I think something I pay for do not work, than I will tell them that. And if it is regarding merchandise I think they have all the resonsabilities as amazon and other sites. Because they - like Mike McCready are not a child. He is a grown man with a fanclub and they are a business organisation.

I stand behind this metaphor. Here is another on. If i pay to get into a nightclub this does not give me the right to behave as I wish. I have to abide by rules and standards of that club – sometimes dress rules, level of intoxication, manners, etc. If i act like a jerk in a nightclub, I expect to be thrown out – and back in the90s you could expect a hiding from a bouncer to boot. This happened to me plenty in the 80s and 90s when i was less able to hold the substances I’d put into my body combined with immature dickishness. No real difference here.

Yes we pay for this and we have a right to expect to get value for our money, but as a consumer, if we do not feel we are getting value, our only real option is to take out business elsewhere. I wont tell you to leave. I understand ticketing seniority muddles these waters and people want to keep their low numbers – and often put up with things they otherwise would not, but ultimately, people make a choice that they are willing to stay to protect this seniority. For my money, the system works. The ten club does not guarantee tickets to every show – this would be impossible and there are always going to be people who miss out on tickets not matter what system they instigate. It sucks when the site goes unresponsive during ticket sales and I suspect the crowdsurge system was making calls to the 10 club user database and that may have caused some of the issues. But whatever the reason, the system failed and you (and I) have every right to voice our concerns and demand better. Again, it is how we do this that I was referring to and misguided abuse and ill-informed claims help no-one.

Paul Andrews wrote:

Shame on all who this applies to – let the flaming begin – unlike some of you I’m man enough to post my name, my picture and stand behind my words.

Spiritual_Chaos wrote:

using a nick and not standing behind the words you write are not the same thing. I stand behind my words, but on here and other message board I use a nick. Most people do.

Yes people often use nicks, but they also often grow balls they would not grow if easily identifiable and held accountable. A quick look at any public anonymous message forum spells this out. I think the final scene of Silent Bob and Jay Strike Back illustrated this point beautifully when they went out and beat the shit out of everyone who’d abused them online.

Thanks for reading.

gvn2fly12

Hi Paul,

Well writen, well thought out , well done sir

All the best to you and the family this festive season,