Thoughts on High Speed Railroad in the U.S.?

13

Comments

  • Kel Varnsen
    Kel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    Dirtie_Frank wrote:
    I agree about having a high speed rail, but Europe had a chance to rebuild the rail infrastructure after WW2 where our infrastructure is from the mid 1800s.

    Europe is also much smaller with a much higher population density. So going from Berlin to Paris, or even from London to Glasgow, is much less of a big deal infrastructure wise, than building a system to go from Chicago to LA or NYC to Dallas. In both those cases you have to build a lot of track in places that really are the middle of no where, where you aren't going to be able to pick anyone up and construction costs are going to be much higher. Plus for long ass trips like that unless it is dirt cheap no one is going to spend two days on a train when the same trip can be made in an afternoon on a plane for a similar price.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    Europe is also much smaller with a much higher population density. So going from Berlin to Paris, or even from London to Glasgow, is much less of a big deal infrastructure wise, than building a system to go from Chicago to LA or NYC to Dallas. In both those cases you have to build a lot of track in places that really are the middle of no where, where you aren't going to be able to pick anyone up and construction costs are going to be much higher. Plus for long ass trips like that unless it is dirt cheap no one is going to spend two days on a train when the same trip can be made in an afternoon on a plane for a similar price.

    well ...

    1. if there is no one there - land costs and/or expropriation costs will be significantly cheaper ... also - similar to not all commercial flight routes are profitable, some train routes won't be either ... you obviously have to start where there is the most densisty (california coast or northeast corridor).

    2. you need to factor in that flying time isn't just the time it takes to actually go from gate to gate ... you have to factor in that often people have to arrive 90 mins or more earlier than their flight, often will have to connect at an airport with a layover ... and that airports are generally on the outskirts of town whereas major train stations are in the heart of a city ...
  • Kel Varnsen
    Kel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    polaris_x wrote:
    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    Europe is also much smaller with a much higher population density. So going from Berlin to Paris, or even from London to Glasgow, is much less of a big deal infrastructure wise, than building a system to go from Chicago to LA or NYC to Dallas. In both those cases you have to build a lot of track in places that really are the middle of no where, where you aren't going to be able to pick anyone up and construction costs are going to be much higher. Plus for long ass trips like that unless it is dirt cheap no one is going to spend two days on a train when the same trip can be made in an afternoon on a plane for a similar price.

    well ...

    1. if there is no one there - land costs and/or expropriation costs will be significantly cheaper ... also - similar to not all commercial flight routes are profitable, some train routes won't be either ... you obviously have to start where there is the most densisty (california coast or northeast corridor).

    2. you need to factor in that flying time isn't just the time it takes to actually go from gate to gate ... you have to factor in that often people have to arrive 90 mins or more earlier than their flight, often will have to connect at an airport with a layover ... and that airports are generally on the outskirts of town whereas major train stations are in the heart of a city ...

    I agree that land costs are typically cheaper in the middle of no where. But on the other hand getting workers, equipment and materials out to those locations to build the train tracks is considerably more expensive.

    And I agree with you that sort of short to medium range flights a high speed train could be comparble in time when you factor in everything. But if you are talking about a rail network that crosses the US why would anyone take a train from the westcoast to the east cost or even midwest that would take days, when they could take a flight where travel time would be measured in hours? Unless the train was considerably cheaper.
  • keeponrockin
    keeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    Dirtie_Frank wrote:
    I agree about having a high speed rail, but Europe had a chance to rebuild the rail infrastructure after WW2 where our infrastructure is from the mid 1800s.

    Europe is also much smaller with a much higher population density. So going from Berlin to Paris, or even from London to Glasgow, is much less of a big deal infrastructure wise, than building a system to go from Chicago to LA or NYC to Dallas. In both those cases you have to build a lot of track in places that really are the middle of no where, where you aren't going to be able to pick anyone up and construction costs are going to be much higher. Plus for long ass trips like that unless it is dirt cheap no one is going to spend two days on a train when the same trip can be made in an afternoon on a plane for a similar price.
    That's why I think it needs to be regional.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • Kel Varnsen
    Kel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    keeponrockin wrote:
    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    Dirtie_Frank wrote:
    I agree about having a high speed rail, but Europe had a chance to rebuild the rail infrastructure after WW2 where our infrastructure is from the mid 1800s.

    Europe is also much smaller with a much higher population density. So going from Berlin to Paris, or even from London to Glasgow, is much less of a big deal infrastructure wise, than building a system to go from Chicago to LA or NYC to Dallas. In both those cases you have to build a lot of track in places that really are the middle of no where, where you aren't going to be able to pick anyone up and construction costs are going to be much higher. Plus for long ass trips like that unless it is dirt cheap no one is going to spend two days on a train when the same trip can be made in an afternoon on a plane for a similar price.
    That's why I think it needs to be regional.

    Exactly a few regional systems make some sense, but trying to do a national system in the US or Canada, that can get anyone to anywhere makes no sense and would be super expensive.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    I agree that land costs are typically cheaper in the middle of no where. But on the other hand getting workers, equipment and materials out to those locations to build the train tracks is considerably more expensive.

    And I agree with you that sort of short to medium range flights a high speed train could be comparble in time when you factor in everything. But if you are talking about a rail network that crosses the US why would anyone take a train from the westcoast to the east cost or even midwest that would take days, when they could take a flight where travel time would be measured in hours? Unless the train was considerably cheaper.

    well ... across the US is definitely a far distance ... there can be a market if people care to stop at some places along the way and then there is a huge segment of people who just hate to fly ... right now amtrak can take you the same route ... the only difference is that it'll be much faster ... plus, if you make the longer routes overnighters - it's an added feature as right now planes don't usually fly red eye going east to west ...

    these trains do 300 km/hr easy ... and upwards of 400 km/hr ... the thing would be to build in a freight component to the service ... it would make the movement of goods cheaper and faster whilst being more environmentally friendly ...
  • whygohome
    whygohome Posts: 2,305
    It's going to fail in the U.S. because we enjoy living in the New Stone Age, slaves to big oil.
    Also, high-speed rail, along with clean energy, is liberal treehugger propaganda.

    This country is so fucking backwards. How much do our soldiers, you know, the ones sent to the desert to die for corporate interests and corporate profit, get paid? Not as much as an idiot actor that releases shitty movie after shitty movie; not as much as a bunch of tanned retards who act like buffoons on a beach; not as much as Wall St. traders who sit in front of a computer screen all day; not as much as someone who can hit a round ball with a wooden stick or someone who can put a round ball through a round hoop.

    We are a backwards country. I would love to see a piece of shit republican congressman go to a Veteran's Hospital and tell a 22 year old soldier who had his legs blown off by an IED that he supports a system that benefits those who contribute nothing to society compared to those who are grossly underpaid, those who perform invaluable services to society, those who everyday they go to work have the threat of death hanging over them. I would love to see Cantor, McConnell, or Rand Paul explain their stance on taxes and corporate welfare to that legless soldier.

    Leaving this backwards society in 7 months.....can't fucking wait!!!!

    One other thing I can't wait for: the idiotic attacks I will receive for this post. So, to those who want to criticize me, or call me names: go fuck yourself and look in the mirror.

    Going back into hiding now...............
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,677
    whygohome wrote:
    It's going to fail in the U.S. because we enjoy living in the New Stone Age, slaves to big oil.
    Also, high-speed rail, along with clean energy, is liberal treehugger propaganda.

    This country is so fucking backwards. How much do our soldiers, you know, the ones sent to the desert to die for corporate interests and corporate profit, get paid? Not as much as an idiot actor that releases shitty movie after shitty movie; not as much as a bunch of tanned retards who act like buffoons on a beach; not as much as Wall St. traders who sit in front of a computer screen all day; not as much as someone who can hit a round ball with a wooden stick or someone who can put a round ball through a round hoop.

    We are a backwards country. I would love to see a piece of shit republican congressman go to a Veteran's Hospital and tell a 22 year old soldier who had his legs blown off by an IED that he supports a system that benefits those who contribute nothing to society compared to those who are grossly underpaid, those who perform invaluable services to society, those who everyday they go to work have the threat of death hanging over them. I would love to see Cantor, McConnell, or Rand Paul explain their stance on taxes and corporate welfare to that legless soldier.

    Leaving this backwards society in 7 months.....can't fucking wait!!!!

    One other thing I can't wait for: the idiotic attacks I will receive for this post. So, to those who want to criticize me, or call me names: go fuck yourself and look in the mirror.

    Going back into hiding now...............

    whygohome, I seldom if ever write posts as harsh as the one you've posted here but I sure know the feeling- sometimes you look around and think about how much better our town or our country, or the world could be and you just want to say, "fuck it" or "fuck you" or whatever. Even though I'm not that pissed off right now and even though if I were I would vent my frustration different ways, I can still empathize with your feelings. It really is a frustrating world. And "in hiding", oh I know that one too. Sometimes that's the best place to be.

    In the big picture I've found I can get more done by channeling my anger into trying to do some little thing to make a difference. Most likely none of us can add more than a teaspoon full or two of earth to the mountain of changes we need to make but it makes sense to try in light of what Vaclav Havel once said about hope (something very much like this):

    "Hope isn't the conviction that things will turn out well, but the conviction that what you are doing makes sense no matter how things turn out."

    I hope that helps.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,677
    p.s.whygohome, every time I look at the picture of that dog in your avatar and look at those eyes I feel good!
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    Exactly a few regional systems make some sense, but trying to do a national system in the US or Canada, that can get anyone to anywhere makes no sense and would be super expensive.

    It does make sense if you take into account environmental damage caused by airplanes.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    polaris_x wrote:
    these trains do 300 km/hr easy ... and upwards of 400 km/hr ...

    Are you sure about that? I thought the fastest train in the World was the recently opened Shanghai-Beijing service? I was on it this year and the fastest speed I saw it clocking was 313km.
    Though I also took the SNCF from Paris to Charleville in April this year and that train felt FAAST. Not sure what speed it clocked up.
  • Kel Varnsen
    Kel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    Exactly a few regional systems make some sense, but trying to do a national system in the US or Canada, that can get anyone to anywhere makes no sense and would be super expensive.

    It does make sense if you take into account environmental damage caused by airplanes.

    Fair enough, but if you are going to be installing a national high speed rail system in the US, you are either going to need to do a massive upgrade to the electrical system including powering all the new tracks with massive high voltage wiring, and that kind of thing (which I believe is how they do it in Japan) or all the trains are going to have to run on diesel fuel.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Byrnzie wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    these trains do 300 km/hr easy ... and upwards of 400 km/hr ...

    Are you sure about that? I thought the fastest train in the World was the recently opened Shanghai-Beijing service? I was on it this year and the fastest speed I saw it clocking was 313km.
    Though I also took the SNCF from Paris to Charleville in April this year and that train felt FAAST. Not sure what speed it clocked up.

    well ... the 400 km/hr and faster ones are all the magnetic ones they have in japan ... i think the record speed is like 580 km/hr ...

    but the ones in germany top out around 300 km/hr right now ...
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,677
    There's an interesting article from the March 2014 Trains magazine (also reprinted with permission in RailPAC's Steel Wheels bi-monthly) called "The USA is a Passenger-Train Joke" written by Don Phillips. Unfortunately there is no link currently to that article but in it Phillips talks about how far behind the rest of the developed world the US is in rail service. Personally, I like the idea of restoring traditional rail service rather than pouring tons of money into high speed. Rebuilding standard rail service would reduce pollution and decrease oil consumption because standard rail uses less energy per person or weight in freight than any other mechanical form of transportation. For arguments sake, however, let's suppose high speed rail is also a good option (we do like to go fast, right?) Phillips points out something I never thought about and maybe is a clue as to why we in the US have not developed high speed rail and I quote Phillips:

    "No passenger system in the world earns a profit. None.

    Except for the US and Canada, passenger train service is considered a public service."

    It seems to me that if we looked at our rail systems from this perspective- a public service rather that the myth that it can be a profitable business- we would move into the 21st century (oh heck- maybe even the 20th century!) in terms of rail service and at the same time reduce our energy consumption and take a big step in reducing our dependency on oil.

    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,327
    This is the future ...

    image

    FYI - if you google "the jetsons tube", you will get a good mixture of NSFW demented pictures. there must be a lot of weirdos that are into incest jetson porn.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    edited April 2014
    Current proposal to run high speed line between Houston and Dallas. Would of used it last week.

    Course there is lots of resistance as we love driving our extended pickups/big suv's and able to stop at burger joints along the way.

    Think that all those that oppose rail should spend two weeks in country that has an efficient system.
    Post edited by callen on
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,470
    there was talk of one between st louis and chicago, i would use it all the time.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    Jason P said:

    This is the future ...

    image

    FYI - if you google "the jetsons tube", you will get a good mixture of NSFW demented pictures. there must be a lot of weirdos that are into incest jetson porn.

    JP. You just happen to stumble on this?!? =P~
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,327
    edited April 2014
    PJ F5!
    ~:>
    Post edited by Jason P on
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,327
    Jason P said:

    callen said:

    Jason P said:

    This is the future ...

    image

    FYI - if you google "the jetsons tube", you will get a good mixture of NSFW demented pictures. there must be a lot of weirdos that are into incest jetson porn.

    JP. You just happen to stumble on this?!? =P~
    It's not like I was intentionally looking for images / video of Jane Jetson and Mr. Spacley and Astro the Dog and ....

    Uhh ... Yeah ... Stumble upon. ... That's the ticket!

    image
    ~:>
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!

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