Thoughts on High Speed Railroad in the U.S.?

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  • Kel VarnsenKel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    polaris_x wrote:
    Speaking as a Canadian, I would LOVE a high speed rail corridor from say Windsor to QC. If these trains go as fast as they do, I could get to Toronto from Ottawa in 90 minutes. Hell, it takes me an hour to get downtown Ottawa by bus (I live in the burbs), I would do this in a heartbeat.

    for sure ... windsor --> london --> kw --> guelph --> mississauga --> toronto --> oshawa --> kingston --> ottawa --> cornwall --> montreal --> trois rivieres -- quebec city ...
    If I could get to Toronto in even under 2 hours, I'd be there a lot more often.

    Hell, if the trip to Montreal was cheaper now I'd be there more often now, too much of a hassle to drive it some times (and plus, part of Montreal is enjoying a few beverages on a patio).

    That would be awesome but I can totally see it never happening. I mean we only have 2 national airlines, and I bet business travellers from Montreal and Ottawa travelling to Toronto is a ton of at least Air Canada's business. If a high speed rail system were to be proposed I can totally see how Air Canada would just come out and say how if it was built it would kill their Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto routes to the point where they might go out of business and leave a ton of Canadians, especially in small towns, without access to air travel. And I can totally see the government, any government faling for that threat.

    Plus the city of Ottawa can't even get their shit together enough to figure out municipal commuter rail. I can't imagine how long it would take to get a project like this, potentially across two provinces and probably something under federal jurisdiction figured out.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    i was in chicago thursday and saw a poster advertising a high speed train from chicago to st louis. and they said itd be a reality in 2014 or something. dont know why itd be between those 2 cities other than theyre in neighbouring states and thatd perhaps make it simpler, logistically speaking.

    oh and as someone who just criss crossed your country 4 times... im all for high speed train travel.
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  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    polaris_x wrote:
    Speaking as a Canadian, I would LOVE a high speed rail corridor from say Windsor to QC. If these trains go as fast as they do, I could get to Toronto from Ottawa in 90 minutes. Hell, it takes me an hour to get downtown Ottawa by bus (I live in the burbs), I would do this in a heartbeat.

    for sure ... windsor --> london --> kw --> guelph --> mississauga --> toronto --> oshawa --> kingston --> ottawa --> cornwall --> montreal --> trois rivieres -- quebec city ...

    the latest study has excluded south of Toronto from high speed rail.

    http://www.windsorstar.com/sports/Mayor ... story.html

    I do think most studies do support it...but looks to be a fight to get it.
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  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    That would be awesome but I can totally see it never happening. I mean we only have 2 national airlines, and I bet business travellers from Montreal and Ottawa travelling to Toronto is a ton of at least Air Canada's business. If a high speed rail system were to be proposed I can totally see how Air Canada would just come out and say how if it was built it would kill their Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto routes to the point where they might go out of business and leave a ton of Canadians, especially in small towns, without access to air travel. And I can totally see the government, any government faling for that threat.

    Plus the city of Ottawa can't even get their shit together enough to figure out municipal commuter rail. I can't imagine how long it would take to get a project like this, potentially across two provinces and probably something under federal jurisdiction figured out.

    firstly ... i would like to say fuck air canada ... they've been treating customers like shit there for too long ... secondly ... i'm pretty sure that someone will pick up the routes ... if air canada goes out of business - they are gonna have to sell them planes to someone ...
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    brianlux wrote:
    This is the other thing I keep thinking about- places I'd visit more often if we had high-speed rail. I don't fly so it's either drive, take the train or dream (usually dream).

    The other thing I wonder about is this: One of the things I love about rail travel is taking in the view. I've never been on high-speed rail though so I wonder- does the fast rate of speed make the view go by too quickly and make it less interesting?

    my only experience with high speed rail is in germany ... i can't say it honestly feels much different except you know you are going slow some some rail lines ... but at the same time - i don't think you are missing too much ... trains slow down near some towns ...
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,051
    polaris_x wrote:
    brianlux wrote:
    This is the other thing I keep thinking about- places I'd visit more often if we had high-speed rail. I don't fly so it's either drive, take the train or dream (usually dream).

    The other thing I wonder about is this: One of the things I love about rail travel is taking in the view. I've never been on high-speed rail though so I wonder- does the fast rate of speed make the view go by too quickly and make it less interesting?

    my only experience with high speed rail is in germany ... i can't say it honestly feels much different except you know you are going slow some some rail lines ... but at the same time - i don't think you are missing too much ... trains slow down near some towns ...

    If I ever make it back to Europe, that's the way I'll travel!
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  • Kel VarnsenKel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    polaris_x wrote:
    That would be awesome but I can totally see it never happening. I mean we only have 2 national airlines, and I bet business travellers from Montreal and Ottawa travelling to Toronto is a ton of at least Air Canada's business. If a high speed rail system were to be proposed I can totally see how Air Canada would just come out and say how if it was built it would kill their Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto routes to the point where they might go out of business and leave a ton of Canadians, especially in small towns, without access to air travel. And I can totally see the government, any government faling for that threat.

    Plus the city of Ottawa can't even get their shit together enough to figure out municipal commuter rail. I can't imagine how long it would take to get a project like this, potentially across two provinces and probably something under federal jurisdiction figured out.

    firstly ... i would like to say fuck air canada ... they've been treating customers like shit there for too long ... secondly ... i'm pretty sure that someone will pick up the routes ... if air canada goes out of business - they are gonna have to sell them planes to someone ...

    I agree fuck air canada. But I can easily see a situation where if the government says they will be funding a high speed rail line even from Montreal to Toronto. Air Canada could easily say that in order to recoup the money they are going to lose on those highly profitable routes (seriously everytime I have flown Ottawa to Toronto it has always been full) they will be just straight cutting some less profitbale routes. So no more flights to Labrador, or Whitehorse or Northern BC or a bunch of other places that Westjet doesn't fly (because they are not money makers). And once that happens I can see a lot of pissed off people who live in those places calling their MP's and telling them how pissed off they are (and the MPs not voting for funding), or the MPs not even wanting to risk it.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    I agree fuck air canada. But I can easily see a situation where if the government says they will be funding a high speed rail line even from Montreal to Toronto. Air Canada could easily say that in order to recoup the money they are going to lose on those highly profitable routes (seriously everytime I have flown Ottawa to Toronto it has always been full) they will be just straight cutting some less profitbale routes. So no more flights to Labrador, or Whitehorse or Northern BC or a bunch of other places that Westjet doesn't fly (because they are not money makers). And once that happens I can see a lot of pissed off people who live in those places calling their MP's and telling them how pissed off they are (and the MPs not voting for funding), or the MPs not even wanting to risk it.

    i agree ... there are many routes that are unprofitable but part of the reason why westjet doesn't fly there is because air canada does ... void of any competitor - i suspect that someone should be able to make it work ...

    obviously, there are also political ramifications but it works on many levels ...
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    As a replacement or alternative to the airline industry for travel, I could see it. But it would take an incredible amount of work to build it up to that.
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  • I agree about having a high speed rail, but Europe had a chance to rebuild the rail infrastructure after WW2 where our infrastructure is from the mid 1800s.
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  • Kel VarnsenKel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    I agree about having a high speed rail, but Europe had a chance to rebuild the rail infrastructure after WW2 where our infrastructure is from the mid 1800s.

    Europe is also much smaller with a much higher population density. So going from Berlin to Paris, or even from London to Glasgow, is much less of a big deal infrastructure wise, than building a system to go from Chicago to LA or NYC to Dallas. In both those cases you have to build a lot of track in places that really are the middle of no where, where you aren't going to be able to pick anyone up and construction costs are going to be much higher. Plus for long ass trips like that unless it is dirt cheap no one is going to spend two days on a train when the same trip can be made in an afternoon on a plane for a similar price.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Europe is also much smaller with a much higher population density. So going from Berlin to Paris, or even from London to Glasgow, is much less of a big deal infrastructure wise, than building a system to go from Chicago to LA or NYC to Dallas. In both those cases you have to build a lot of track in places that really are the middle of no where, where you aren't going to be able to pick anyone up and construction costs are going to be much higher. Plus for long ass trips like that unless it is dirt cheap no one is going to spend two days on a train when the same trip can be made in an afternoon on a plane for a similar price.

    well ...

    1. if there is no one there - land costs and/or expropriation costs will be significantly cheaper ... also - similar to not all commercial flight routes are profitable, some train routes won't be either ... you obviously have to start where there is the most densisty (california coast or northeast corridor).

    2. you need to factor in that flying time isn't just the time it takes to actually go from gate to gate ... you have to factor in that often people have to arrive 90 mins or more earlier than their flight, often will have to connect at an airport with a layover ... and that airports are generally on the outskirts of town whereas major train stations are in the heart of a city ...
  • Kel VarnsenKel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    polaris_x wrote:
    Europe is also much smaller with a much higher population density. So going from Berlin to Paris, or even from London to Glasgow, is much less of a big deal infrastructure wise, than building a system to go from Chicago to LA or NYC to Dallas. In both those cases you have to build a lot of track in places that really are the middle of no where, where you aren't going to be able to pick anyone up and construction costs are going to be much higher. Plus for long ass trips like that unless it is dirt cheap no one is going to spend two days on a train when the same trip can be made in an afternoon on a plane for a similar price.

    well ...

    1. if there is no one there - land costs and/or expropriation costs will be significantly cheaper ... also - similar to not all commercial flight routes are profitable, some train routes won't be either ... you obviously have to start where there is the most densisty (california coast or northeast corridor).

    2. you need to factor in that flying time isn't just the time it takes to actually go from gate to gate ... you have to factor in that often people have to arrive 90 mins or more earlier than their flight, often will have to connect at an airport with a layover ... and that airports are generally on the outskirts of town whereas major train stations are in the heart of a city ...

    I agree that land costs are typically cheaper in the middle of no where. But on the other hand getting workers, equipment and materials out to those locations to build the train tracks is considerably more expensive.

    And I agree with you that sort of short to medium range flights a high speed train could be comparble in time when you factor in everything. But if you are talking about a rail network that crosses the US why would anyone take a train from the westcoast to the east cost or even midwest that would take days, when they could take a flight where travel time would be measured in hours? Unless the train was considerably cheaper.
  • I agree about having a high speed rail, but Europe had a chance to rebuild the rail infrastructure after WW2 where our infrastructure is from the mid 1800s.

    Europe is also much smaller with a much higher population density. So going from Berlin to Paris, or even from London to Glasgow, is much less of a big deal infrastructure wise, than building a system to go from Chicago to LA or NYC to Dallas. In both those cases you have to build a lot of track in places that really are the middle of no where, where you aren't going to be able to pick anyone up and construction costs are going to be much higher. Plus for long ass trips like that unless it is dirt cheap no one is going to spend two days on a train when the same trip can be made in an afternoon on a plane for a similar price.
    That's why I think it needs to be regional.
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  • Kel VarnsenKel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    I agree about having a high speed rail, but Europe had a chance to rebuild the rail infrastructure after WW2 where our infrastructure is from the mid 1800s.

    Europe is also much smaller with a much higher population density. So going from Berlin to Paris, or even from London to Glasgow, is much less of a big deal infrastructure wise, than building a system to go from Chicago to LA or NYC to Dallas. In both those cases you have to build a lot of track in places that really are the middle of no where, where you aren't going to be able to pick anyone up and construction costs are going to be much higher. Plus for long ass trips like that unless it is dirt cheap no one is going to spend two days on a train when the same trip can be made in an afternoon on a plane for a similar price.
    That's why I think it needs to be regional.

    Exactly a few regional systems make some sense, but trying to do a national system in the US or Canada, that can get anyone to anywhere makes no sense and would be super expensive.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    I agree that land costs are typically cheaper in the middle of no where. But on the other hand getting workers, equipment and materials out to those locations to build the train tracks is considerably more expensive.

    And I agree with you that sort of short to medium range flights a high speed train could be comparble in time when you factor in everything. But if you are talking about a rail network that crosses the US why would anyone take a train from the westcoast to the east cost or even midwest that would take days, when they could take a flight where travel time would be measured in hours? Unless the train was considerably cheaper.

    well ... across the US is definitely a far distance ... there can be a market if people care to stop at some places along the way and then there is a huge segment of people who just hate to fly ... right now amtrak can take you the same route ... the only difference is that it'll be much faster ... plus, if you make the longer routes overnighters - it's an added feature as right now planes don't usually fly red eye going east to west ...

    these trains do 300 km/hr easy ... and upwards of 400 km/hr ... the thing would be to build in a freight component to the service ... it would make the movement of goods cheaper and faster whilst being more environmentally friendly ...
  • whygohomewhygohome Posts: 2,305
    It's going to fail in the U.S. because we enjoy living in the New Stone Age, slaves to big oil.
    Also, high-speed rail, along with clean energy, is liberal treehugger propaganda.

    This country is so fucking backwards. How much do our soldiers, you know, the ones sent to the desert to die for corporate interests and corporate profit, get paid? Not as much as an idiot actor that releases shitty movie after shitty movie; not as much as a bunch of tanned retards who act like buffoons on a beach; not as much as Wall St. traders who sit in front of a computer screen all day; not as much as someone who can hit a round ball with a wooden stick or someone who can put a round ball through a round hoop.

    We are a backwards country. I would love to see a piece of shit republican congressman go to a Veteran's Hospital and tell a 22 year old soldier who had his legs blown off by an IED that he supports a system that benefits those who contribute nothing to society compared to those who are grossly underpaid, those who perform invaluable services to society, those who everyday they go to work have the threat of death hanging over them. I would love to see Cantor, McConnell, or Rand Paul explain their stance on taxes and corporate welfare to that legless soldier.

    Leaving this backwards society in 7 months.....can't fucking wait!!!!

    One other thing I can't wait for: the idiotic attacks I will receive for this post. So, to those who want to criticize me, or call me names: go fuck yourself and look in the mirror.

    Going back into hiding now...............
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,051
    whygohome wrote:
    It's going to fail in the U.S. because we enjoy living in the New Stone Age, slaves to big oil.
    Also, high-speed rail, along with clean energy, is liberal treehugger propaganda.

    This country is so fucking backwards. How much do our soldiers, you know, the ones sent to the desert to die for corporate interests and corporate profit, get paid? Not as much as an idiot actor that releases shitty movie after shitty movie; not as much as a bunch of tanned retards who act like buffoons on a beach; not as much as Wall St. traders who sit in front of a computer screen all day; not as much as someone who can hit a round ball with a wooden stick or someone who can put a round ball through a round hoop.

    We are a backwards country. I would love to see a piece of shit republican congressman go to a Veteran's Hospital and tell a 22 year old soldier who had his legs blown off by an IED that he supports a system that benefits those who contribute nothing to society compared to those who are grossly underpaid, those who perform invaluable services to society, those who everyday they go to work have the threat of death hanging over them. I would love to see Cantor, McConnell, or Rand Paul explain their stance on taxes and corporate welfare to that legless soldier.

    Leaving this backwards society in 7 months.....can't fucking wait!!!!

    One other thing I can't wait for: the idiotic attacks I will receive for this post. So, to those who want to criticize me, or call me names: go fuck yourself and look in the mirror.

    Going back into hiding now...............

    whygohome, I seldom if ever write posts as harsh as the one you've posted here but I sure know the feeling- sometimes you look around and think about how much better our town or our country, or the world could be and you just want to say, "fuck it" or "fuck you" or whatever. Even though I'm not that pissed off right now and even though if I were I would vent my frustration different ways, I can still empathize with your feelings. It really is a frustrating world. And "in hiding", oh I know that one too. Sometimes that's the best place to be.

    In the big picture I've found I can get more done by channeling my anger into trying to do some little thing to make a difference. Most likely none of us can add more than a teaspoon full or two of earth to the mountain of changes we need to make but it makes sense to try in light of what Vaclav Havel once said about hope (something very much like this):

    "Hope isn't the conviction that things will turn out well, but the conviction that what you are doing makes sense no matter how things turn out."

    I hope that helps.
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  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,051
    p.s.whygohome, every time I look at the picture of that dog in your avatar and look at those eyes I feel good!
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  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Exactly a few regional systems make some sense, but trying to do a national system in the US or Canada, that can get anyone to anywhere makes no sense and would be super expensive.

    It does make sense if you take into account environmental damage caused by airplanes.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    polaris_x wrote:
    these trains do 300 km/hr easy ... and upwards of 400 km/hr ...

    Are you sure about that? I thought the fastest train in the World was the recently opened Shanghai-Beijing service? I was on it this year and the fastest speed I saw it clocking was 313km.
    Though I also took the SNCF from Paris to Charleville in April this year and that train felt FAAST. Not sure what speed it clocked up.
  • Kel VarnsenKel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Exactly a few regional systems make some sense, but trying to do a national system in the US or Canada, that can get anyone to anywhere makes no sense and would be super expensive.

    It does make sense if you take into account environmental damage caused by airplanes.

    Fair enough, but if you are going to be installing a national high speed rail system in the US, you are either going to need to do a massive upgrade to the electrical system including powering all the new tracks with massive high voltage wiring, and that kind of thing (which I believe is how they do it in Japan) or all the trains are going to have to run on diesel fuel.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Byrnzie wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    these trains do 300 km/hr easy ... and upwards of 400 km/hr ...

    Are you sure about that? I thought the fastest train in the World was the recently opened Shanghai-Beijing service? I was on it this year and the fastest speed I saw it clocking was 313km.
    Though I also took the SNCF from Paris to Charleville in April this year and that train felt FAAST. Not sure what speed it clocked up.

    well ... the 400 km/hr and faster ones are all the magnetic ones they have in japan ... i think the record speed is like 580 km/hr ...

    but the ones in germany top out around 300 km/hr right now ...
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,051
    There's an interesting article from the March 2014 Trains magazine (also reprinted with permission in RailPAC's Steel Wheels bi-monthly) called "The USA is a Passenger-Train Joke" written by Don Phillips. Unfortunately there is no link currently to that article but in it Phillips talks about how far behind the rest of the developed world the US is in rail service. Personally, I like the idea of restoring traditional rail service rather than pouring tons of money into high speed. Rebuilding standard rail service would reduce pollution and decrease oil consumption because standard rail uses less energy per person or weight in freight than any other mechanical form of transportation. For arguments sake, however, let's suppose high speed rail is also a good option (we do like to go fast, right?) Phillips points out something I never thought about and maybe is a clue as to why we in the US have not developed high speed rail and I quote Phillips:

    "No passenger system in the world earns a profit. None.

    Except for the US and Canada, passenger train service is considered a public service."

    It seems to me that if we looked at our rail systems from this perspective- a public service rather that the myth that it can be a profitable business- we would move into the 21st century (oh heck- maybe even the 20th century!) in terms of rail service and at the same time reduce our energy consumption and take a big step in reducing our dependency on oil.

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  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,138
    This is the future ...

    image

    FYI - if you google "the jetsons tube", you will get a good mixture of NSFW demented pictures. there must be a lot of weirdos that are into incest jetson porn.
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    edited April 2014
    Current proposal to run high speed line between Houston and Dallas. Would of used it last week.

    Course there is lots of resistance as we love driving our extended pickups/big suv's and able to stop at burger joints along the way.

    Think that all those that oppose rail should spend two weeks in country that has an efficient system.
    Post edited by callen on
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  • there was talk of one between st louis and chicago, i would use it all the time.
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  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    Jason P said:

    This is the future ...

    image

    FYI - if you google "the jetsons tube", you will get a good mixture of NSFW demented pictures. there must be a lot of weirdos that are into incest jetson porn.

    JP. You just happen to stumble on this?!? =P~
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  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,138
    edited April 2014
    PJ F5!
    ~:>
    Post edited by Jason P on
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,138
    Jason P said:

    callen said:

    Jason P said:

    This is the future ...

    image

    FYI - if you google "the jetsons tube", you will get a good mixture of NSFW demented pictures. there must be a lot of weirdos that are into incest jetson porn.

    JP. You just happen to stumble on this?!? =P~
    It's not like I was intentionally looking for images / video of Jane Jetson and Mr. Spacley and Astro the Dog and ....

    Uhh ... Yeah ... Stumble upon. ... That's the ticket!

    image
    ~:>
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