Greece

inlet13

satansbed wrote:

I think many of your assumptions that lead you to being so anti keynsian are wrong, firstly countries continued to ignore many elements of Keynesian thinking such as the recommendation to avoid large trade imbalances and to reduce government deficits in boom years.

First, I think one issue of disagreement between us is that you seem to focus on Keynesian economics occurring only on the fiscal side, at least here you completely discount monetary policy (which can also be Keynesian in it's approach, and in fact, almost always is in today's world). I'd say Monetary policy matters even more so than fiscal policy, depending on the country discussed.

Second, regardless of whether countries did at times ignore certain aspects of Keynesian "fiscal" policy, they certainly did not engage in the opposite of Keynesian "fiscal" policy. It was Richard Nixon, a Republican in the states, who declared "we're all Keynesians now". That was a long time ago. Both parties in the U.S. have engaged in Keynesian policies ever since, as has the Fed.

satansbed wrote:

secondly free-market influences where strong in institutions like the World Bank, the IMF, and in media such as the Financial Times and The Economist. The consensus view that current account imbalances do not matter continued, with mainstream academic opinion only turning to the view that the imbalances are unsustainable by 2007.

If you really think the World Bank or the IMF are free-market entities, you're completely kidding yourself... and most likely a lost cause to convince otherwise. Moreover, even if the Financial Times and The Economist did lean to the free-market side, what the hell does that matter to our discussion on government policies? They are news periodicals ha ha... The degree to which current account imbalances "matter" is dependent on the country in question. Regardless, trying to alter markets in your favor to improve your "current account" is not wise, but doing nothing about it is not necessarily anti-Keynesian.

satansbed wrote:

Another anti-Keynesian view that remained dominant in US and UK policy making circles was the idea that markets work best if they are unregulated.

I'd argue markets do work best if unregulated and that view did not dominate in the U.S. at all. The reason why unregulated markets work better is anytime you fix prices, you create a dead-weight loss. This could impact the producer or the consumer or both. Regardless, of who it first impacts, it hits both down the line.

satansbed wrote:

the return to keynsian policy's only happened since 2008 in response to the failure of the unregulated free market system.

That's laughable. Keynesian policy was running rampant pre-2008. I will speak about the U.S. government to explain. Ok, so post 9-11 and post the 01 recession, when the Fed lowered interest rates ... to spur spending... that wasn't Keynesian? If not, explain how. How about how they kept interest rates artificially low until about 2004, which spured demand for mortages? That wasn't Keynesian? A large bubble in housing was built in response. Before the bubble, government policies were established to increase home-ownership, were they Keynesian? Government policy has been Keynesian all along.

satansbed wrote:

although that is not to say keynes is anti capitalist, my understanding of keynsian wrighting is that an economy should have a strong private sector underpinned by a public sector providing public goods.

Keynes is not necessarily 100% anti-capitalist, what he thought was government should steer markets, which is somewhat anti-free-market (and I suppose a bit anti-capitalist). He believed the government knows better than markets, and he believed you can control markets. He believed there was no or very limited costs to controlling markets because to quote him "in the long run we're all dead". His opponents also believe government can "steer" markets, but they believe there's an enormous cost down the line (in the long run) to doing such. These opponents believe the steering also becomes harder the more you do it. These opponents would say... this is the long run, and we're not dead.

Keynes also believed in government spending.... government spending was jumping well before 08, anyone who denies this is just wrong.

satansbed wrote:

i think you should reexamine what was happening between 2000-2008 because during that time it was the neoclassical not keyensian models that held sway

No, it wasn't. I think you should re-examine what Keynesian economics really is. Once again, whenever government involved itself to steer markets (which was very evident, fiscally via the congressional push for higher home-ownership and the policies that pushed that and was also very evident in the Monetary Policy that pushed for lower interest rates for years post-01 to spur spending on everything including houses)... that's Keynesian economics in a nutshell.

The irony is the "cure" for Keynesian economics is always... more Keynesian economics, we saw this right after 01 when the dotcom bubble burst (which was built by Keynesian policies)... and then the recession/9-11 followed... we got more Keynesian policies to cure it... then we have this most recent recession... then the answer was more Keynesian policies.... now we're about to head into a new recession. And I ask a Keynesian, who was right? It's now the Long Run... and guess what, government has no money left to steer markets any more. Moreover, the steering has done little good. We should have taken the punch in the nose once, rather than repetitively taking shots to the face for years to come. That's what Keynes got us... but to him, we're dead now so it doesn't matter... um, I don't feel dead.

Thoughts_Arrive

I'd post my thoughts but I am afraid Pap will yell at me. :(

AELARA

dimitrispearljam wrote:

nice theories...if you guys live here today,all you gonna say complitly different things

WE know...

dimitrispearljam

AELARA wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

nice theories...if you guys live here today,all you gonna say complitly different things

WE know...

exactly Chryssa

cincybearcat

dimitrispearljam wrote:

AELARA wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

nice theories...if you guys live here today,all you gonna say complitly different things

WE know...

exactly Chryssa

So what's going on then?

Jason P

"If this body is not capable of action, I suggest new leadership is needed. I move for a Vote of No Confidence in Chancellor Valorum's leadership."

If it's anything like Episode II, I know exactly what's going on.

On a serious note though, I hope Greece gets through this sooner then later.

AELARA

cincybearcat wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

AELARA wrote:

WE know...

exactly Chryssa

So what's going on then?

Well, it's a long and complex story to tell. I can explain my point of view, if you want. But I really don't feel like getting into an endless conflict because I don't need to convince anyone about anything. Anyone can have their own point of view and I respect it even if I don't embrace it.

dimitrispearljam

AELARA wrote:

Well, it's a long and complex story to tell. I can explain my point of view, if you want. But I really don't feel like getting into an endless conflict because I don't need to convince anyone about anything. Anyone can have their own point of view and I respect it even if I don't embrace it.

+ theories and statistics are good for talking,not for real life..
when numbers are good,people are poor..period..

AELARA

dimitrispearljam wrote:

AELARA wrote:

Well, it's a long and complex story to tell. I can explain my point of view, if you want. But I really don't feel like getting into an endless conflict because I don't need to convince anyone about anything. Anyone can have their own point of view and I respect it even if I don't embrace it.

+ theories and statistics are good for talking,not for real life..
when numbers are good,people are poor..period..

You can imagine what is going on when numbers are NOT good... :?

blueandwhite

It's too bad a situation like this brings out sweeping generalizations about an entire nation. How many media outlets have labeled Greeks as being lazy and entitled? Many of us do the same thing when talking about a wide variety of professions. Why is it so easy to label the dying middle class as lazy and self-serving, yet criticizing the wealthiest few who have taken obscene amounts of wealth they never earned is considered heresy?

dimitrispearljam

blueandwhite wrote:

It's too bad a situation like this brings out sweeping generalizations about an entire nation. How many media outlets have labeled Greeks as being lazy and entitled? Many of us do the same thing when talking about a wide variety of professions. Why is it so easy to label the dying middle class as lazy and self-serving, yet criticizing the wealthiest few who have taken obscene amounts of wealth they never earned is considered heresy?

thank you..for treat my country and the people of Greece with respect..thank you..

blueandwhite

dimitrispearljam wrote:

thank you..for treat my country and the people of Greece with respect..thank you..

No problem. It sucks when people start treating their fellow human beings like dirt. The situation in Greece is nothing short of a tragedy. It's so easy to pick on people when they are in a bad spot rather than lending a hand and trying to pull them up. I really hope things work out; not just for Greece but for the rest of the world. We can be better than this.

inlet13

blueandwhite wrote:

It's too bad a situation like this brings out sweeping generalizations about an entire nation. How many media outlets have labeled Greeks as being lazy and entitled? Many of us do the same thing when talking about a wide variety of professions. Why is it so easy to label the dying middle class as lazy and self-serving, yet criticizing the wealthiest few who have taken obscene amounts of wealth they never earned is considered heresy?

Their issue is their government. They elected in that government. That government spent way more then it should have. Most of that money was spent on entitlement programs. I mean the numbers don't lie.

That said, did all Greeks vote for that? No. Did some not want an entitlement society? I'm sure. But, the majority did, and that's what they got.

Greece is not alone. This is happening to The West, pretty much everywhere, yet not quite to this level... I mean look at Italy today... look at the U.S. a month or so ago. We all got too cozy with some aspects of socialism and it's biting us all in the ass right now.

This is what happens when you expect someone else to take care of you; sometimes, unfortunately they can't. When it's the government you expected to care for you, this happens more often than it doesn't.

satansbed

inlet13 wrote:

blueandwhite wrote:

It's too bad a situation like this brings out sweeping generalizations about an entire nation. How many media outlets have labeled Greeks as being lazy and entitled? Many of us do the same thing when talking about a wide variety of professions. Why is it so easy to label the dying middle class as lazy and self-serving, yet criticizing the wealthiest few who have taken obscene amounts of wealth they never earned is considered heresy?

Their issue is their government. They elected in that government. That government spent way more then it should have. Most of that money was spent on entitlement programs. I mean the numbers don't lie.

That said, did all Greeks vote for that? No. Did some not want an entitlement society? I'm sure. But, the majority did, and that's what they got.

Greece is not alone. This is happening to The West, pretty much everywhere, yet not quite to this level... I mean look at Italy today... look at the U.S. a month or so ago. We all got too cozy with some aspects of socialism and it's biting us all in the ass right now.

This is what happens when you expect someone else to take care of you; sometimes, unfortunately they can't. When it's the government you expected to care for you, this happens more often than it doesn't.

your missing out on the massive tax evasion, just to blame one factor is Ridiculous

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ia ... o-incomes/

mikepegg44

dimitrispearljam wrote:

AELARA wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

nice theories...if you guys live here today,all you gonna say complitly different things

WE know...

exactly Chryssa

what do you guys have to say about it? I am interested to hear what those who do live there feel about the entire mess?

inlet13

satansbed wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

blueandwhite wrote:

It's too bad a situation like this brings out sweeping generalizations about an entire nation. How many media outlets have labeled Greeks as being lazy and entitled? Many of us do the same thing when talking about a wide variety of professions. Why is it so easy to label the dying middle class as lazy and self-serving, yet criticizing the wealthiest few who have taken obscene amounts of wealth they never earned is considered heresy?

Their issue is their government. They elected in that government. That government spent way more then it should have. Most of that money was spent on entitlement programs. I mean the numbers don't lie.

That said, did all Greeks vote for that? No. Did some not want an entitlement society? I'm sure. But, the majority did, and that's what they got.

Greece is not alone. This is happening to The West, pretty much everywhere, yet not quite to this level... I mean look at Italy today... look at the U.S. a month or so ago. We all got too cozy with some aspects of socialism and it's biting us all in the ass right now.

This is what happens when you expect someone else to take care of you; sometimes, unfortunately they can't. When it's the government you expected to care for you, this happens more often than it doesn't.

your missing out on the massive tax evasion, just to blame one factor is Ridiculous

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ia ... o-incomes/

I still blame government, and don't see how one can't.

I agree that tax evasion is also an issue (particularly in Italy)... but, it's a government issue nonetheless.

satansbed

inlet13 wrote:

I still blame government, and don't see how one can't.

I agree that tax evasion is also an issue (particularly in Italy)... but, it's a government issue nonetheless.

but just because there is bad governement you can't say we should then have little to no government...

inlet13

satansbed wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

I still blame government, and don't see how one can't.

I agree that tax evasion is also an issue (particularly in Italy)... but, it's a government issue nonetheless.

but just because there is bad governement you can't say we should then have little to no government...

haha,...

First and foremost, although I believe you said it in effort to make your point, please don't tell me what I can and can't say in the future, unless I'm breaking a board rule (which I wasn't by saying this issue is a government issue).

Second, I believe it was a mix of both bad government and large government that caused this problem. To me, in simplicity, that boils down to this being a government problem.

Third, the reason for that is big government breeds bad government. How? Through a variety of areas like bureaucracy, red-tape, over-reaching into the private sector and squashing private market incentives. Put simply, most efficient businesses maximize profits, whereas big government maximizes public labor... the only way to stop this inherent inefficiency in government is to place constraints on its size, or if needed to minimize it.

keeponrockin

inlet13 wrote:

blueandwhite wrote:

It's too bad a situation like this brings out sweeping generalizations about an entire nation. How many media outlets have labeled Greeks as being lazy and entitled? Many of us do the same thing when talking about a wide variety of professions. Why is it so easy to label the dying middle class as lazy and self-serving, yet criticizing the wealthiest few who have taken obscene amounts of wealth they never earned is considered heresy?

Their issue is their government. They elected in that government. That government spent way more then it should have. Most of that money was spent on entitlement programs. I mean the numbers don't lie.

That said, did all Greeks vote for that? No. Did some not want an entitlement society? I'm sure. But, the majority did, and that's what they got.

Greece is not alone. This is happening to The West, pretty much everywhere, yet not quite to this level... I mean look at Italy today... look at the U.S. a month or so ago. We all got too cozy with some aspects of socialism and it's biting us all in the ass right now.

This is what happens when you expect someone else to take care of you; sometimes, unfortunately they can't. When it's the government you expected to care for you, this happens more often than it doesn't.

Entitlement spending, why can't we cut military spending. I'd MUCH rather my tax dollars go to giving someone health care here than killing someone halfway around the world.

inlet13

keeponrockin wrote:

Entitlement spending, why can't we cut military spending. I'd MUCH rather my tax dollars go to giving someone health care here than killing someone halfway around the world.

Who said we can't cut military spending? I'd rather "not" have my tax dollars go to the government to begin with. They will continue to add new entitlements (that will eventually go broke) and create new wars (that we can't pay for)... meanwhile, they will pickpocket other programs or print money to "act" like they are paying for them.

So, I don't care if my money goes to new entitlement programs like Obamacare or if it goes to wars abroad. Cut it all. We can't afford it.