Greece

satansbed

countries such as Greece and Italy should have taken advantage of lower interest rates when they joined the euro zone to develop their economies and infrastructure and become more competitive instead of using it on current spending, greece has structural problems and until they deal with them there will be no room for growth. the medicine may not taste nice but they should man up and take it, it will be better in the long run

FiveB247x

Firstly, inlet, you continue to dance around the fact that the reason the EU exists, the reason there is such a thing as a domino effect inside the EU or into our own economy at such dramatic effect is because of globalization and capitalism to extreme forms. It's arguable whether they are directly the cause of such issues for one specific nation in this instance, but the reality is the main reason it effects all involved as a dramatic result is because of these items. You continue to separate it as if it is 2 separate cases - it is not. It's the butterfly effect in practice. Also in terms of the US debt, the reality is whether its the group you mention or even our own government, they are just talking points and not much has been address to actually fix our debt and system which are far out of whack - and that is not directly at one party, leader or similar. Our collective failures for decades have led us to this point. I am not attempting to turn this thread into a debate about party politics or similar. My comments are aimed at discussing not solely why Greece is in the trouble they are, but more importantly, why those results are so largely looming on the rest of the world.

Mikepeg44- I think with how things work in the global, technological age, the availability to influence and change nations, usually not for the better in terms of long term stability, is very detrimental to the well being of most. Of course there has to be and will be lots of trade, lending and programs to help all involved, but the reality is that these systems as they are currently setup (the IMF, WB, G8, trade agreements like NAFTA or CAFTA and globalization coupled with privatization and corporate agendas), they are setup for the rich to plunder the poor nations and do not in any serious manner, better the nations in need for the long term. Perhaps the system needs revamping, perhaps there needs to be better oversight and less privatization, but overall, globalization and the results of it do not help those in need and most importantly, benefit the already rich and powerful nations and businesses. That's not development, it's control and plunder.

And this leads me to my last point, which I happen to read in an article about a totally separate topic but I thought more aptly hits the nail on the head in regards to capitalism, globalization and many of these matters. "Give Americans a chance to be greedy and noble at the same time, and the cultural momentum becomes unstoppable." It doesn't have to be directly just about Americans per say, but in terms of the ultimate goals of globalization and capitalism, what we see are not accidents, but rather common outputs of a system which is constantly looking for more and more. In the US, the housing market burst and we got stuck with the bill because our banks and wall street were constantly seeking the next new group to profit from. Like Argentina before, now Greece - they're just a few examples of what happens when "never-enough" is what you seek, it merely blows up at some point.

inlet13

MotoDC wrote:

inlet -- I wouldn't presume to get into an economic debate with a professor of such, but the above-described investments are indeed at the core of capitalism. Specifically, the ability of capital (money) to find its way to where it will be most effectively (as measured by profit) used. I know you don't need to be told that, but it seems like you and Five are arguing different steps in this process. Govt overspending and entitlements in Greece (though that particular problem is not limited to Greece) are the starter charge, globalization is the TNT. Although I don't believe globalization is necessarily a key tenet of laissez faire capitalism, it is certainly a predictable outcome.

You can get into a debate or discuss these issues with me. I mean if we're honest, even Nobel laureates in economics are often wrong, and trust me, I'm no Nobel laureate. But, on this issue I still claim anyone who blasts this problem as a fault of capitalism is very ignorant, or more likely (on here) they are probably someone who's a socialist (or close to it).

This is a problem of government debt. Socialists like to ignore government problems and cast the blame on capitalism. Sure, other factors are at play. But, government debt is a government problem. So, just to clarify again, the inherent problem with Greece is a government problem, not a capitalistic issue. Capitalism refers to investment and ownership of the means of production being private (or privately held). By the very definition of capitalism, government problems are not a capitalist issue. The problem in Greece is government, and could be considered more of a socialist issue.

Why's it spreading? Well, in my opinion, the first reason is the EU. Once again, another government entity. Although Greece is a very small entity, the EU is a very large economy. The EU has it's hands tied because it's member nations (in the south) have also racked up so much debt (government problems), primarily due to entitlement spending, etc (government or socialist problems). So, the EU is having trouble with Greece right now and is demanding austerity measures (government problems). Greece is having trouble buying in... all of the above so far is government. And I should also mention again, that this problem (although on a semi-less scale) is propping up elsewhere in the EU (the south)... so they can't do much, but hope they don't also implode.

If the EU goes into recession, the rest of the world will feel it. This bring us to our next issue: globalization. Will we feel the EU recession more so because of the interconnectedness? Yes. Is capitalism partially to blame for that? I suppose so. But, that's not the only reason our markets here are being rattled by what's going on over there. Trade is a major reason, financial markets connectivity and globalized business are another... but, what's ignored is investors know the U.S. is also running into similar "debt" problems, which brings us back to government.

At the end of the day, I suppose I see how one can argue capitalism is involved in how this filters to "other countries". But, the origin of the problem is in government. Without that origin, this negative filtration would never occur. It's like saying if some guy named Greece is takes a crap load of over the counter pills, which kills him. People find out about this over facebook and get depressed. The argument that capitalism is the root of this problem is like saying what got those people depressed was facebook, not what Greece did to themselves. The origin of the problem is Greece and is government. That's my point.

inlet13

FiveB247x wrote:

Firstly, inlet, you continue to dance around the fact that the reason the EU exists, the reason there is such a thing as a domino effect inside the EU or into our own economy at such dramatic effect is because of globalization and capitalism to extreme forms. It's arguable whether they are directly the cause of such issues for one specific nation in this instance, but the reality is the main reason it effects all involved as a dramatic result is because of these items. You continue to separate it as if it is 2 separate cases - it is not. It's the butterfly effect in practice. Also in terms of the US debt, the reality is whether its the group you mention or even our own government, they are just talking points and not much has been address to actually fix our debt and system which are far out of whack - and that is not directly at one party, leader or similar. Our collective failures for decades have led us to this point. I am not attempting to turn this thread into a debate about party politics or similar. My comments are aimed at discussing not solely why Greece is in the trouble they are, but more importantly, why those results are so largely looming on the rest of the world.

Put simply: Greece is in trouble because of entitlement spending, and just government spending in general. The EU is in trouble because of Greece (and Italy, and Spain, and Portugal, and Ireland) and out of control government spending, and their avocation of Keynesian style fiscal policy. The world economy is in trouble because the EU is a large economy, and these problems of out of control government spending aren't contained only in the EU (look at the US as an example).

You want to make capitalism the evil here. While, it's pretty easy to see the real scapegoat is government-related, or just a form of government policy: Keynesian. The reason I object to your points is you're trying to mislead. You're saying that we're feeling this here because of globalization and capitalism, insinuating that globalization and capitalism are bad and the CAUSE. I'm countering saying, what's the opposite of capitalism? What's the alternative? Generally, an alternative is government-related.... and I'm saying, guess what... the trigger here is: Government. The trigger here is Keynesian policies. This was easily predicted because bubbles are built within that framework and they pop. The trouble is figuring out the bubble. This time it's the government itself.

FiveB247x

You are not understanding my main point. I am not saying capitalism and globalization are at fault for these nations over-spending and such - that is on the specific government and people of the specific nation. I am saying the results thereafter which greatly impact the rest of the world ARE the fault of these two key items and a much more dramatic and catastrophic result for all involved. You continually separate them as if they are outside of the scope and not connected. Greece is in trouble, which causes problems for the EU, which causes problems for the markets and the value of the dollar and our economy and so forth. That is not solely on governments... the start of it is, but the rest is capitalism and globalization.

inlet13 wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

Firstly, inlet, you continue to dance around the fact that the reason the EU exists, the reason there is such a thing as a domino effect inside the EU or into our own economy at such dramatic effect is because of globalization and capitalism to extreme forms. It's arguable whether they are directly the cause of such issues for one specific nation in this instance, but the reality is the main reason it effects all involved as a dramatic result is because of these items. You continue to separate it as if it is 2 separate cases - it is not. It's the butterfly effect in practice. Also in terms of the US debt, the reality is whether its the group you mention or even our own government, they are just talking points and not much has been address to actually fix our debt and system which are far out of whack - and that is not directly at one party, leader or similar. Our collective failures for decades have led us to this point. I am not attempting to turn this thread into a debate about party politics or similar. My comments are aimed at discussing not solely why Greece is in the trouble they are, but more importantly, why those results are so largely looming on the rest of the world.

Put simply: Greece is in trouble because of entitlement spending, and just government spending in general. The EU is in trouble because of Greece (and Italy, and Spain, and Portugal, and Ireland) and out of control government spending, and their avocation of Keynesian style fiscal policy. The world economy is in trouble because the EU is a large economy, and these problems of out of control government spending aren't contained only in the EU (look at the US as an example).

You want to make capitalism the evil here. While, it's pretty easy to see the real scapegoat is government-related, or just a form of government policy: Keynesian. The reason I object to your points is you're trying to mislead. You're saying that we're feeling this here because of globalization and capitalism, insinuating that globalization and capitalism are bad and the CAUSE. I'm countering saying, what's the opposite of capitalism? What's the alternative? Generally, an alternative is government-related.... and I'm saying, guess what... the trigger here is: Government. The trigger here is Keynesian policies. This was easily predicted because bubbles are built within that framework and they pop. The trouble is figuring out the bubble. This time it's the government itself.

inlet13

FiveB247x wrote:

You are not understanding my main point. I am not saying capitalism and globalization are at fault for these nations over-spending and such - that is on the specific government and people of the specific nation. I am saying the results thereafter which greatly impact the rest of the world ARE the fault of these two key items and a much more dramatic and catastrophic result for all involved. You continually separate them as if they are outside of the scope and not connected. Greece is in trouble, which causes problems for the EU, which causes problems for the markets and the value of the dollar and our economy and so forth. That is not solely on governments... the start of it is, but the rest is capitalism and globalization.

Here's what I'd respond: capitalism and globalization clearly make the world more connected. This amplifies how we respond to a countries ups and depresses how we respond to a countries declines at the margin. So, with that, I suppose I would semi-agree. But, I'd add here: don't forget the ups. In that sense, it's like an environment.

My issue with what you're saying is with how the environment is portrayed as the problem. Even to us, all the way over here, capitalism and globalization aren't the real issue. If Greece had never been dumb with their government finances, we would not be dealing with any Greek-related problems. The issue is Greece and their debt. The issue is how the EU is handling their member's debt dilemma. Perhaps, the issue is also that so many governments (including ours) are doing similar things like Greece. That, to me, is the real issue.

As for capitalism and globalization...

To use a football analogy: When I cast blame for my QB making a dumb pass, I don't blame the fact that they are playing on a particular field,... I blame the player who made the dumb play. Greece is the player. Capitalism and globalization are the environment or in my example, parts of the field the players are playing on. I wouldn't blame the field. I don't blame the environment...

...particularly when the environment (capitalism/globalization) have led to such an advance in standard of livings and average life expectancy world wide since it's advent.

FiveB247x

The Ups...you mention the standard of living or life expediency ages.. standard of living is not the same livable wages or quality of life..and no I don't mean everyone needs an Iphone and PS3. The reality is that globalization merely continues the polarization of economic standing in the world. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The notion that all boats rise with a rising tide is a false premise. There is not one example of a nation in the world that has gone through the economic development via programs of the IMF and WB that have had any long term stability and success. If you take on these loans and programs, you will not get out of them and your society pays the price. It's also worth mentioning that the very same methods that these rich nations and organizations prescribe for developing and poor nations are not the same in which they have ever run their own economies or the manner which led them to stability/success.

Anyways, in terms of Greece, we can all blame them and that's great, but if one small nation can corrupt the entire global economy, there is something a miss with that global economy and system. You are more focused on Greece (which deserves it's own blame) while not really addressing and acknowledging the fact this is a house of cards scenario. You can blame one card for not holding their end up, but if the whole system is predicated on such, it's very, very false and faulty logistical setup.

inlet13 wrote:

Here's what I'd respond: capitalism and globalization clearly make the world more connected. This amplifies how we respond to a countries ups and depresses how we respond to a countries declines at the margin. So, with that, I suppose I would semi-agree. But, I'd add here: don't forget the ups. In that sense, it's like an environment.

My issue with what you're saying is with how the environment is portrayed as the problem. Even to us, all the way over here, capitalism and globalization aren't the real issue. If Greece had never been dumb with their government finances, we would not be dealing with any Greek-related problems. The issue is Greece and their debt. The issue is how the EU is handling their member's debt dilemma. Perhaps, the issue is also that so many governments (including ours) are doing similar things like Greece. That, to me, is the real issue.

As for capitalism and globalization...

To use a football analogy: When I cast blame for my QB making a dumb pass, I don't blame the fact that they are playing on a particular field,... I blame the player who made the dumb play. Greece is the player. Capitalism and globalization are the environment or in my example, parts of the field the players are playing on. I wouldn't blame the field. I don't blame the environment...

...particularly when the environment (capitalism/globalization) have led to such an advance in standard of livings and average life expectancy world wide since it's advent.

inlet13

FiveB247x wrote:

The Ups...you mention the standard of living or life expediency ages.. standard of living is not the same livable wages or quality of life..and no I don't mean everyone needs an Iphone and PS3.

When I said standard of living and life expectancy, I meant even broader... I meant worldwide. There's no doubt that the standard of living and the average life expectancy has increased over the past hundred to two hundred years worldwide. I'd say even over the past fifty years it's improved further worldwide.

When you say standard of living and life expectancy is not the same as living wages and quality of life, I'd yes they are not 'exactly the same', no two words are exactly the same... but, I would then argue that quality of life and living wages have also improved over the past 100 to 200 years.

FiveB247x wrote:

he reality is that globalization merely continues the polarization of economic standing in the world. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The notion that all boats rise with a rising tide is a false premise.

The talking point "rich get richer and poor get poorer" is violated right off the bat, over the past 100, 200 years, both the poor and the rich have gotten richer. Once again, standard of living and life expectancy have improved worldwide.

FiveB247x wrote:

There is not one example of a nation in the world that has gone through the economic development via programs of the IMF and WB that have had any long term stability and success. If you take on these loans and programs, you will not get out of them and your society pays the price.

I'm not a fan of the IMF or the WB at all. So, I don't get what bringing them up has to do with anything. In fact, are you trying to say the World Bank and the IMF are capitalistic in nature? Because, if so, I would disagree, and almost argue they are the opposite. So, it confuses me as to why you brought them up to begin with. That said, I kinda agree with your points on both here. They aren't very good entities.

FiveB247x wrote:

It's also worth mentioning that the very same methods that these rich nations and organizations prescribe for developing and poor nations are not the same in which they have ever run their own economies or the manner which led them to stability/success.

This is still on the WB and IMF stuff, so I'll pass here. I kind of agree with your underlying point.

FiveB247x wrote:

Anyways, in terms of Greece, we can all blame them and that's great, but if one small nation can corrupt the entire global economy, there is something a miss with that global economy and system. You are more focused on Greece (which deserves it's own blame) while not really addressing and acknowledging the fact this is a house of cards scenario. You can blame one card for not holding their end up, but if the whole system is predicated on such, it's very, very false and faulty logistical setup.

Well, let's be real here. Greece should be blamed. So should Italy, so should Ireland, so should Portugal, so should Spain... so should the U.S. The underlying problem is this thought that government should provide goods and the spend, spend, spend rhetoric like it's free money. That concept needs to be broken. It's not free money. That money is our money. A dollar the government spends comes from someone/somewhere. If the government is spending money they don't have it leads to these problems.

The real issue is, citizens wanted the stuff the government was giving, and were ok with the whole charade of not paying for it. We blame and blame politicians (and yes, they are all scum), but the truth is our citizenry is stupid. They either didn't know that the government was spending on a credit card over it's limit, or they didn't care. The citizenry just wanted their public goods, and thought it's fine someone will pay for it.... like little spoiled kids. They wanted their social security, their medicaid, medicare, their wars, they wanted their infrastructure, clean roads, public education, they wanted their entitlements. Taking even one or pieces of all of these away once their given is the equivalent of taking a teddy bear away from a crying toddler.... except we're adults. The simple next thought is, well let's just raise revenue to pay for our debt... there's a couple problems with this...the first is the one you've heard, that won't work because whether one wants to admit it or not, increasing taxes slows economic growth. Then we play class warfare.. but, it's the truth, it doesn't matter who you increase taxes on, if you hold all else constant, it's not going to be good for economic growth. But, even if what I said was wrong there, the most dead-on point is that at some point you're in so much debt that even if you tax the rich to death... you won't be able to pay off your debt. And finally, does taxes, upon taxes, really get to the issue of the addiction to spending? You can't keep spending and think we'll get six jobs down the line to pay for it. Eventually, you'll get cut off. That's what's happening.

Our WORLD's problem right now is government. It's government spending. It's our dumb politicians (and the FED) who keep using Keynesian theory, it's our dumb citizens who keep voting people in who will do just that. I blame the government, because that's the way to change it. If everyone realizes it's Keynesian policies that caused this, and not rich bankers or capitalism or globalization.... they can change it.

MotoDC

five wrote:

while not really addressing and acknowledging the fact this is a house of cards scenario.

You are absolutely right, but it's not the house of cards you're imagining. One of the reasons the house is so fragile is that it's built on the crystalline debt structure that inlet is describing. Globalization contributes to making it systemic rather than isolated to greece, but if all the other nations in the world were operating sanely (as defined by inlet, I'll grant you), then even in our "capitalistic"/globalized economy, the failure of Greece would not trigger widespread shockwaves. In fact, if all the other nations in the world were acting sanely, Greece's ability to act insanely would have been greatly restricted bc they would have had far fewer buyers of their debt.

That said, I'm not yet convinced that Greece defaulting will actually trigger any such meltdown, though I must admit I'm not sure of the extent to which governments versus private banks own Greek debt. A bank may go under, many more will have to write off a bunch of debt and suffer a few bad quarters, but the world will keep turning.

Inlet -- I'm not sure your football analogy is adequate. If the field were hilly and covered in fog (which isn't a stretch when we're analogizing global economics), you might well blame the environment as well as the QB.

satansbed

inlet13 wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

Firstly, inlet, you continue to dance around the fact that the reason the EU exists, the reason there is such a thing as a domino effect inside the EU or into our own economy at such dramatic effect is because of globalization and capitalism to extreme forms. It's arguable whether they are directly the cause of such issues for one specific nation in this instance, but the reality is the main reason it effects all involved as a dramatic result is because of these items. You continue to separate it as if it is 2 separate cases - it is not. It's the butterfly effect in practice. Also in terms of the US debt, the reality is whether its the group you mention or even our own government, they are just talking points and not much has been address to actually fix our debt and system which are far out of whack - and that is not directly at one party, leader or similar. Our collective failures for decades have led us to this point. I am not attempting to turn this thread into a debate about party politics or similar. My comments are aimed at discussing not solely why Greece is in the trouble they are, but more importantly, why those results are so largely looming on the rest of the world.

Put simply: Greece is in trouble because of entitlement spending, and just government spending in general. The EU is in trouble because of Greece (and Italy, and Spain, and Portugal, and Ireland) and out of control government spending, and their avocation of Keynesian style fiscal policy. The world economy is in trouble because the EU is a large economy, and these problems of out of control government spending aren't contained only in the EU (look at the US as an example).

You want to make capitalism the evil here. While, it's pretty easy to see the real scapegoat is government-related, or just a form of government policy: Keynesian. The reason I object to your points is you're trying to mislead. You're saying that we're feeling this here because of globalization and capitalism, insinuating that globalization and capitalism are bad and the CAUSE. I'm countering saying, what's the opposite of capitalism? What's the alternative? Generally, an alternative is government-related.... and I'm saying, guess what... the trigger here is: Government. The trigger here is Keynesian policies. This was easily predicted because bubbles are built within that framework and they pop. The trouble is figuring out the bubble. This time it's the government itself.

just a small aside but i think ireland is a different case to the sothern european nations, the irish problem was largely to a massive property bubble, and the government guarenteeing bank debt, yes we would have some debt problem if not for this but it would be far more managable, secondly, ireland is a much more open economy and ireland is ranked as the second most attractive country globally for foreign direct investment and has a path for jobs and growth open which the greeks, italians, portguese and the spanish don't have.

keynesian policies aren't neccessarily irelands down fall,

FiveB247x

I don't really think life expectancy is a true measure of globalization... if anything it has more to do with technology and medicine's evolution. Perhaps globalization has enabled those areas to be spread to less developed places, but globalization has not directly caused an influx or rise in health research or improvement directly, but instead merely helps it spread via an avenue. But with that said, you could make the same exact correlation to the spread of fast food chains through the world or in this case, the spread of economic woes.

In terms of your comments about the rise of wage and quality of life, I think this is a complete farce. It's no different from what we see in our own nation. Overall as a society, our wealth has grown, but in practice, it's the growing separation of wealth with the middle disappearing. More working poor, more people below the poverty level and yet overall by average, our nation's income has risen because although some make more than previously, the poor get a little more, but still no where near enough to survive on, and the rich get the vast majority of the increases. To speak about globalization and increase for all, so has the cost of living, but the human toll (hours worked, survivable wages, environmental cost) are still no where near being able to claim this is any sort of progress from an overall vantage point. It's no different from me telling you that you're getting $1 a day to $2 a day to work in a factory (which you can't survive on anyhow) and because of globalization, this cheap labor exists, but if not for globalization, there would be no factory. This is not progress but paints a clear picture of the type of real life scenario many claim are "improvements".

Anyways, back to Greece - yes any government and its citizens are directly responsible for their own debt and choices. I am not arguing that fact. But globalization enables the small infection to become a mass pandemic. The citizens of each nation are responsible for it's governments decisions. The bankers, corporations, and global economic organizations are held to no real oversight and rule of law. They are entities and rogues only liable to themselves. Greece can collapse and it's on Greece, the EU has issues it's on their collective nations.. but past that, wall street, the value of the dollar and the US economy's results..that's on globalization. Globalization allows for the world to be so interconnected, it's not always a good thing and in terms of unguarded investment and policies it leads to new areas of risk which in the long term backfire on both the shortsighted investors and the host nation being invested in. To steal a sports analogy we are now seeing now in the NCAA, free agency (schools) moving to different conferences for the highest bidder and best deals has ruined the notion of what was setup and intended. It polarizes the entire sport, and boils things down to one main focus and attainment, money and greed. The human element is lost and cast aside. That's globalization, there's no real altruistic or triumphant goal.. the goal is money and control. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm not silly enough to believe in a utopian world where everyone has everything, but I'm also not naive enough to call servitude and imperialism as a common good and betterment for the world.

satansbed

FiveB247x wrote:

I don't really think life expectancy is a true measure of globalization... if anything it has more to do with technology and medicine's evolution. Perhaps globalization has enabled those areas to be spread to less developed places, but globalization has not directly caused an influx or rise in health research or improvement directly, but instead merely helps it spread via an avenue. But with that said, you could make the same exact correlation to the spread of fast food chains through the world or in this case, the spread of economic woes.

In terms of your comments about the rise of wage and quality of life, I think this is a complete farce. It's no different from what we see in our own nation. Overall as a society, our wealth has grown, but in practice, it's the growing separation of wealth with the middle disappearing. More working poor, more people below the poverty level and yet overall by average, our nation's income has risen because although some make more than previously, the poor get a little more, but still no where near enough to survive on, and the rich get the vast majority of the increases. To speak about globalization and increase for all, so has the cost of living, but the human toll (hours worked, survivable wages, environmental cost) are still no where near being able to claim this is any sort of progress from an overall vantage point. It's no different from me telling you that you're getting $1 a day to $2 a day to work in a factory (which you can't survive on anyhow) and because of globalization, this cheap labor exists, but if not for globalization, there would be no factory. This is not progress but paints a clear picture of the type of real life scenario many claim are "improvements".

Anyways, back to Greece - yes any government and its citizens are directly responsible for their own debt and choices. I am not arguing that fact. But globalization enables the small infection to become a mass pandemic. The citizens of each nation are responsible for it's governments decisions. The bankers, corporations, and global economic organizations are held to no real oversight and rule of law. They are entities and rogues only liable to themselves. Greece can collapse and it's on Greece, the EU has issues it's on their collective nations.. but past that, wall street, the value of the dollar and the US economy's results..that's on globalization. Globalization allows for the world to be so interconnected, it's not always a good thing and in terms of unguarded investment and policies it leads to new areas of risk which in the long term backfire on both the shortsighted investors and the host nation being invested in. To steal a sports analogy we are now seeing now in the NCAA, free agency (schools) moving to different conferences for the highest bidder and best deals has ruined the notion of what was setup and intended. It polarizes the entire sport, and boils things down to one main focus and attainment, money and greed. The human element is lost and cast aside. That's globalization, there's no real altruistic or triumphant goal.. the goal is money and control. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm not silly enough to believe in a utopian world where everyone has everything, but I'm also not naive enough to call servitude and imperialism as a common good and betterment for the world.

I think your wrong to blame globalization, the same happened in the great depression when there was far less globalisation and in fact a Breakdown of international trade is one of the reasons the great depression happened

FiveB247x

Shocking - but I disagree

The great depression had a wide variety of causes but none of them where as wide spread to infect the other as much as we see in the manner we see international problems occur nowadays and not in same way. Many large nations had issues during the great depression, this current matter of Greece is a small nation effecting the greater world.

satansbed wrote:

I think your wrong to blame globalization, the same happened in the great depression when there was far less globalisation and in fact a Breakdown of international trade is one of the reasons the great depression happened

satansbed

FiveB247x wrote:

Shocking - but I disagree

The great depression had a wide variety of causes but none of them where as wide spread to infect the other as much as we see in the manner we see international problems occur nowadays and not in same way. Many large nations had issues during the great depression, this current matter of Greece is a small nation effecting the greater world.

satansbed wrote:

I think your wrong to blame globalization, the same happened in the great depression when there was far less globalisation and in fact a Breakdown of international trade is one of the reasons the great depression happened

well its more like louisana going bankrupt and affecting america which would then affect the world, the eu itself is a pretty big economic power

FiveB247x

I understand your point just disagree for various previously stated reasons. I don't want to repeat myself or beat a dead horse, so I'll just leave it at that.

satansbed wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

Shocking - but I disagree

The great depression had a wide variety of causes but none of them where as wide spread to infect the other as much as we see in the manner we see international problems occur nowadays and not in same way. Many large nations had issues during the great depression, this current matter of Greece is a small nation effecting the greater world.

satansbed wrote:

I think your wrong to blame globalization, the same happened in the great depression when there was far less globalisation and in fact a Breakdown of international trade is one of the reasons the great depression happened

well its more like louisana going bankrupt and affecting america which would then affect the world, the eu itself is a pretty big economic power

dimitrispearljam

nice theories...if you guys live here today,all you gonna say complitly different things

inlet13

satansbed wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

Firstly, inlet, you continue to dance around the fact that the reason the EU exists, the reason there is such a thing as a domino effect inside the EU or into our own economy at such dramatic effect is because of globalization and capitalism to extreme forms. It's arguable whether they are directly the cause of such issues for one specific nation in this instance, but the reality is the main reason it effects all involved as a dramatic result is because of these items. You continue to separate it as if it is 2 separate cases - it is not. It's the butterfly effect in practice. Also in terms of the US debt, the reality is whether its the group you mention or even our own government, they are just talking points and not much has been address to actually fix our debt and system which are far out of whack - and that is not directly at one party, leader or similar. Our collective failures for decades have led us to this point. I am not attempting to turn this thread into a debate about party politics or similar. My comments are aimed at discussing not solely why Greece is in the trouble they are, but more importantly, why those results are so largely looming on the rest of the world.

Put simply: Greece is in trouble because of entitlement spending, and just government spending in general. The EU is in trouble because of Greece (and Italy, and Spain, and Portugal, and Ireland) and out of control government spending, and their avocation of Keynesian style fiscal policy. The world economy is in trouble because the EU is a large economy, and these problems of out of control government spending aren't contained only in the EU (look at the US as an example).

You want to make capitalism the evil here. While, it's pretty easy to see the real scapegoat is government-related, or just a form of government policy: Keynesian. The reason I object to your points is you're trying to mislead. You're saying that we're feeling this here because of globalization and capitalism, insinuating that globalization and capitalism are bad and the CAUSE. I'm countering saying, what's the opposite of capitalism? What's the alternative? Generally, an alternative is government-related.... and I'm saying, guess what... the trigger here is: Government. The trigger here is Keynesian policies. This was easily predicted because bubbles are built within that framework and they pop. The trouble is figuring out the bubble. This time it's the government itself.

just a small aside but i think ireland is a different case to the sothern european nations, the irish problem was largely to a massive property bubble, and the government guarenteeing bank debt, yes we would have some debt problem if not for this but it would be far more managable, secondly, ireland is a much more open economy and ireland is ranked as the second most attractive country globally for foreign direct investment and has a path for jobs and growth open which the greeks, italians, portguese and the spanish don't have.

keynesian policies aren't neccessarily irelands down fall,

I agree that each case is different, and I absolutely agree that Ireland is very different then, say Greece. But, I would disagree that the government guaranteeing bank debt wasn't a Keynesian move. That's 100% Keyensian. Even the property bubble itself, may have been fueled by government policy, as was the case here in the states. I don't know enough about the cause of the Irish property bubble to comment too much there, but I'd assume interest rates played a role.

I think Ireland has a lot of things going for it, but this shows that even if you have a tax structure that encourages FDI (which is a boon for Ireland), you can get burned by Keynesian policies, particularly if you're wrapped up in a larger pseudo-government via the EU.

satansbed

inlet13 wrote:

I agree that each case is different, and I absolutely agree that Ireland is very different then, say Greece. But, I would disagree that the government guaranteeing bank debt wasn't a Keynesian move. That's 100% Keyensian. Even the property bubble itself, may have been fueled by government policy, as was the case here in the states. I don't know enough about the cause of the Irish property bubble to comment too much there, but I'd assume interest rates played a role.

I think Ireland has a lot of things going for it, but this shows that even if you have a tax structure that encourages FDI (which is a boon for Ireland), you can get burned by Keynesian policies, particularly if you're wrapped up in a larger pseudo-government via the EU.

I think many of your assumptions that lead you to being so anti keynsian are wrong, firstly countries continued to ignore many elements of Keynesian thinking such as the recommendation to avoid large trade imbalances and to reduce government deficits in boom years.

secondly free-market influences where strong in institutions like the World Bank, the IMF, and in media such as the Financial Times and The Economist. The consensus view that current account imbalances do not matter continued, with mainstream academic opinion only turning to the view that the imbalances are unsustainable by 2007.

Another anti Keynesian view that remained dominant in US and UK policy making circles was the idea that markets work best if they are unregulated.

the return to keynsian policy's only happened since 2008 in response to the failure of the unregulated free market system.

although that is not to say keynes is anti capitalist, my understanding of keynsian wrighting is that an economy should have a strong private sector underpinned by a public sector providing public goods.

i think you should reexamine what was happening between 2000-2008 because during that time it was the neoclassical not keyensian models that held sway

mikepegg44

satansbed wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

I agree that each case is different, and I absolutely agree that Ireland is very different then, say Greece. But, I would disagree that the government guaranteeing bank debt wasn't a Keynesian move. That's 100% Keyensian. Even the property bubble itself, may have been fueled by government policy, as was the case here in the states. I don't know enough about the cause of the Irish property bubble to comment too much there, but I'd assume interest rates played a role.

I think Ireland has a lot of things going for it, but this shows that even if you have a tax structure that encourages FDI (which is a boon for Ireland), you can get burned by Keynesian policies, particularly if you're wrapped up in a larger pseudo-government via the EU.

I think many of your assumptions that lead you to being so anti keynsian are wrong, firstly countries continued to ignore many elements of Keynesian thinking such as the recommendation to avoid large trade imbalances and to reduce government deficits in boom years.

secondly free-market influences where strong in institutions like the World Bank, the IMF, and in media such as the Financial Times and The Economist. The consensus view that current account imbalances do not matter continued, with mainstream academic opinion only turning to the view that the imbalances are unsustainable by 2007.

Another anti Keynesian view that remained dominant in US and UK policy making circles was the idea that markets work best if they are unregulated.

the return to keynsian policy's only happened since 2008 in response to the failure of the unregulated free market system.

although that is not to say keynes is anti capitalist, my understanding of keynsian wrighting is that an economy should have a strong private sector underpinned by a public sector providing public goods.

i think you should reexamine what was happening between 2000-2008 because during that time it was the neoclassical not keyensian models that held sway

when did an unregulated free market ever occur?

satansbed

mikepegg44 wrote:

satansbed wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

I agree that each case is different, and I absolutely agree that Ireland is very different then, say Greece. But, I would disagree that the government guaranteeing bank debt wasn't a Keynesian move. That's 100% Keyensian. Even the property bubble itself, may have been fueled by government policy, as was the case here in the states. I don't know enough about the cause of the Irish property bubble to comment too much there, but I'd assume interest rates played a role.

I think Ireland has a lot of things going for it, but this shows that even if you have a tax structure that encourages FDI (which is a boon for Ireland), you can get burned by Keynesian policies, particularly if you're wrapped up in a larger pseudo-government via the EU.

I think many of your assumptions that lead you to being so anti keynsian are wrong, firstly countries continued to ignore many elements of Keynesian thinking such as the recommendation to avoid large trade imbalances and to reduce government deficits in boom years.

secondly free-market influences where strong in institutions like the World Bank, the IMF, and in media such as the Financial Times and The Economist. The consensus view that current account imbalances do not matter continued, with mainstream academic opinion only turning to the view that the imbalances are unsustainable by 2007.

Another anti Keynesian view that remained dominant in US and UK policy making circles was the idea that markets work best if they are unregulated.

the return to keynsian policy's only happened since 2008 in response to the failure of the unregulated free market system.

although that is not to say keynes is anti capitalist, my understanding of keynsian wrighting is that an economy should have a strong private sector underpinned by a public sector providing public goods.

i think you should reexamine what was happening between 2000-2008 because during that time it was the neoclassical not keyensian models that held sway

when did an unregulated free market ever occur?

okay so not completely unregulated but the push in the begining of the decade was for less and less regulation