I don't really think life expectancy is a true measure of globalization... if anything it has more to do with technology and medicine's evolution. Perhaps globalization has enabled those areas to be spread to less developed places, but globalization has not directly caused an influx or rise in health research or improvement directly, but instead merely helps it spread via an avenue. But with that said, you could make the same exact correlation to the spread of fast food chains through the world or in this case, the spread of economic woes.
In terms of your comments about the rise of wage and quality of life, I think this is a complete farce. It's no different from what we see in our own nation. Overall as a society, our wealth has grown, but in practice, it's the growing separation of wealth with the middle disappearing. More working poor, more people below the poverty level and yet overall by average, our nation's income has risen because although some make more than previously, the poor get a little more, but still no where near enough to survive on, and the rich get the vast majority of the increases. To speak about globalization and increase for all, so has the cost of living, but the human toll (hours worked, survivable wages, environmental cost) are still no where near being able to claim this is any sort of progress from an overall vantage point. It's no different from me telling you that you're getting $1 a day to $2 a day to work in a factory (which you can't survive on anyhow) and because of globalization, this cheap labor exists, but if not for globalization, there would be no factory. This is not progress but paints a clear picture of the type of real life scenario many claim are "improvements".
Anyways, back to Greece - yes any government and its citizens are directly responsible for their own debt and choices. I am not arguing that fact. But globalization enables the small infection to become a mass pandemic. The citizens of each nation are responsible for it's governments decisions. The bankers, corporations, and global economic organizations are held to no real oversight and rule of law. They are entities and rogues only liable to themselves. Greece can collapse and it's on Greece, the EU has issues it's on their collective nations.. but past that, wall street, the value of the dollar and the US economy's results..that's on globalization. Globalization allows for the world to be so interconnected, it's not always a good thing and in terms of unguarded investment and policies it leads to new areas of risk which in the long term backfire on both the shortsighted investors and the host nation being invested in. To steal a sports analogy we are now seeing now in the NCAA, free agency (schools) moving to different conferences for the highest bidder and best deals has ruined the notion of what was setup and intended. It polarizes the entire sport, and boils things down to one main focus and attainment, money and greed. The human element is lost and cast aside. That's globalization, there's no real altruistic or triumphant goal.. the goal is money and control. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm not silly enough to believe in a utopian world where everyone has everything, but I'm also not naive enough to call servitude and imperialism as a common good and betterment for the world.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I don't really think life expectancy is a true measure of globalization... if anything it has more to do with technology and medicine's evolution. Perhaps globalization has enabled those areas to be spread to less developed places, but globalization has not directly caused an influx or rise in health research or improvement directly, but instead merely helps it spread via an avenue. But with that said, you could make the same exact correlation to the spread of fast food chains through the world or in this case, the spread of economic woes.
In terms of your comments about the rise of wage and quality of life, I think this is a complete farce. It's no different from what we see in our own nation. Overall as a society, our wealth has grown, but in practice, it's the growing separation of wealth with the middle disappearing. More working poor, more people below the poverty level and yet overall by average, our nation's income has risen because although some make more than previously, the poor get a little more, but still no where near enough to survive on, and the rich get the vast majority of the increases. To speak about globalization and increase for all, so has the cost of living, but the human toll (hours worked, survivable wages, environmental cost) are still no where near being able to claim this is any sort of progress from an overall vantage point. It's no different from me telling you that you're getting $1 a day to $2 a day to work in a factory (which you can't survive on anyhow) and because of globalization, this cheap labor exists, but if not for globalization, there would be no factory. This is not progress but paints a clear picture of the type of real life scenario many claim are "improvements".
Anyways, back to Greece - yes any government and its citizens are directly responsible for their own debt and choices. I am not arguing that fact. But globalization enables the small infection to become a mass pandemic. The citizens of each nation are responsible for it's governments decisions. The bankers, corporations, and global economic organizations are held to no real oversight and rule of law. They are entities and rogues only liable to themselves. Greece can collapse and it's on Greece, the EU has issues it's on their collective nations.. but past that, wall street, the value of the dollar and the US economy's results..that's on globalization. Globalization allows for the world to be so interconnected, it's not always a good thing and in terms of unguarded investment and policies it leads to new areas of risk which in the long term backfire on both the shortsighted investors and the host nation being invested in. To steal a sports analogy we are now seeing now in the NCAA, free agency (schools) moving to different conferences for the highest bidder and best deals has ruined the notion of what was setup and intended. It polarizes the entire sport, and boils things down to one main focus and attainment, money and greed. The human element is lost and cast aside. That's globalization, there's no real altruistic or triumphant goal.. the goal is money and control. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm not silly enough to believe in a utopian world where everyone has everything, but I'm also not naive enough to call servitude and imperialism as a common good and betterment for the world.
I think your wrong to blame globalization, the same happened in the great depression when there was far less globalisation and in fact a Breakdown of international trade is one of the reasons the great depression happened
The great depression had a wide variety of causes but none of them where as wide spread to infect the other as much as we see in the manner we see international problems occur nowadays and not in same way. Many large nations had issues during the great depression, this current matter of Greece is a small nation effecting the greater world.
I think your wrong to blame globalization, the same happened in the great depression when there was far less globalisation and in fact a Breakdown of international trade is one of the reasons the great depression happened
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
The great depression had a wide variety of causes but none of them where as wide spread to infect the other as much as we see in the manner we see international problems occur nowadays and not in same way. Many large nations had issues during the great depression, this current matter of Greece is a small nation effecting the greater world.
I think your wrong to blame globalization, the same happened in the great depression when there was far less globalisation and in fact a Breakdown of international trade is one of the reasons the great depression happened
well its more like louisana going bankrupt and affecting america which would then affect the world, the eu itself is a pretty big economic power
I understand your point just disagree for various previously stated reasons. I don't want to repeat myself or beat a dead horse, so I'll just leave it at that.
The great depression had a wide variety of causes but none of them where as wide spread to infect the other as much as we see in the manner we see international problems occur nowadays and not in same way. Many large nations had issues during the great depression, this current matter of Greece is a small nation effecting the greater world.
I think your wrong to blame globalization, the same happened in the great depression when there was far less globalisation and in fact a Breakdown of international trade is one of the reasons the great depression happened
well its more like louisana going bankrupt and affecting america which would then affect the world, the eu itself is a pretty big economic power
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
nice theories...if you guys live here today,all you gonna say complitly different things
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Firstly, inlet, you continue to dance around the fact that the reason the EU exists, the reason there is such a thing as a domino effect inside the EU or into our own economy at such dramatic effect is because of globalization and capitalism to extreme forms. It's arguable whether they are directly the cause of such issues for one specific nation in this instance, but the reality is the main reason it effects all involved as a dramatic result is because of these items. You continue to separate it as if it is 2 separate cases - it is not. It's the butterfly effect in practice. Also in terms of the US debt, the reality is whether its the group you mention or even our own government, they are just talking points and not much has been address to actually fix our debt and system which are far out of whack - and that is not directly at one party, leader or similar. Our collective failures for decades have led us to this point. I am not attempting to turn this thread into a debate about party politics or similar. My comments are aimed at discussing not solely why Greece is in the trouble they are, but more importantly, why those results are so largely looming on the rest of the world.
Put simply: Greece is in trouble because of entitlement spending, and just government spending in general. The EU is in trouble because of Greece (and Italy, and Spain, and Portugal, and Ireland) and out of control government spending, and their avocation of Keynesian style fiscal policy. The world economy is in trouble because the EU is a large economy, and these problems of out of control government spending aren't contained only in the EU (look at the US as an example).
You want to make capitalism the evil here. While, it's pretty easy to see the real scapegoat is government-related, or just a form of government policy: Keynesian. The reason I object to your points is you're trying to mislead. You're saying that we're feeling this here because of globalization and capitalism, insinuating that globalization and capitalism are bad and the CAUSE. I'm countering saying, what's the opposite of capitalism? What's the alternative? Generally, an alternative is government-related.... and I'm saying, guess what... the trigger here is: Government. The trigger here is Keynesian policies. This was easily predicted because bubbles are built within that framework and they pop. The trouble is figuring out the bubble. This time it's the government itself.
just a small aside but i think ireland is a different case to the sothern european nations, the irish problem was largely to a massive property bubble, and the government guarenteeing bank debt, yes we would have some debt problem if not for this but it would be far more managable, secondly, ireland is a much more open economy and ireland is ranked as the second most attractive country globally for foreign direct investment and has a path for jobs and growth open which the greeks, italians, portguese and the spanish don't have.
keynesian policies aren't neccessarily irelands down fall,
I agree that each case is different, and I absolutely agree that Ireland is very different then, say Greece. But, I would disagree that the government guaranteeing bank debt wasn't a Keynesian move. That's 100% Keyensian. Even the property bubble itself, may have been fueled by government policy, as was the case here in the states. I don't know enough about the cause of the Irish property bubble to comment too much there, but I'd assume interest rates played a role.
I think Ireland has a lot of things going for it, but this shows that even if you have a tax structure that encourages FDI (which is a boon for Ireland), you can get burned by Keynesian policies, particularly if you're wrapped up in a larger pseudo-government via the EU.
I agree that each case is different, and I absolutely agree that Ireland is very different then, say Greece. But, I would disagree that the government guaranteeing bank debt wasn't a Keynesian move. That's 100% Keyensian. Even the property bubble itself, may have been fueled by government policy, as was the case here in the states. I don't know enough about the cause of the Irish property bubble to comment too much there, but I'd assume interest rates played a role.
I think Ireland has a lot of things going for it, but this shows that even if you have a tax structure that encourages FDI (which is a boon for Ireland), you can get burned by Keynesian policies, particularly if you're wrapped up in a larger pseudo-government via the EU.
I think many of your assumptions that lead you to being so anti keynsian are wrong, firstly countries continued to ignore many elements of Keynesian thinking such as the recommendation to avoid large trade imbalances and to reduce government deficits in boom years.
secondly free-market influences where strong in institutions like the World Bank, the IMF, and in media such as the Financial Times and The Economist. The consensus view that current account imbalances do not matter continued, with mainstream academic opinion only turning to the view that the imbalances are unsustainable by 2007.
Another anti Keynesian view that remained dominant in US and UK policy making circles was the idea that markets work best if they are unregulated.
the return to keynsian policy's only happened since 2008 in response to the failure of the unregulated free market system.
although that is not to say keynes is anti capitalist, my understanding of keynsian wrighting is that an economy should have a strong private sector underpinned by a public sector providing public goods.
i think you should reexamine what was happening between 2000-2008 because during that time it was the neoclassical not keyensian models that held sway
I agree that each case is different, and I absolutely agree that Ireland is very different then, say Greece. But, I would disagree that the government guaranteeing bank debt wasn't a Keynesian move. That's 100% Keyensian. Even the property bubble itself, may have been fueled by government policy, as was the case here in the states. I don't know enough about the cause of the Irish property bubble to comment too much there, but I'd assume interest rates played a role.
I think Ireland has a lot of things going for it, but this shows that even if you have a tax structure that encourages FDI (which is a boon for Ireland), you can get burned by Keynesian policies, particularly if you're wrapped up in a larger pseudo-government via the EU.
I think many of your assumptions that lead you to being so anti keynsian are wrong, firstly countries continued to ignore many elements of Keynesian thinking such as the recommendation to avoid large trade imbalances and to reduce government deficits in boom years.
secondly free-market influences where strong in institutions like the World Bank, the IMF, and in media such as the Financial Times and The Economist. The consensus view that current account imbalances do not matter continued, with mainstream academic opinion only turning to the view that the imbalances are unsustainable by 2007.
Another anti Keynesian view that remained dominant in US and UK policy making circles was the idea that markets work best if they are unregulated.
the return to keynsian policy's only happened since 2008 in response to the failure of the unregulated free market system.
although that is not to say keynes is anti capitalist, my understanding of keynsian wrighting is that an economy should have a strong private sector underpinned by a public sector providing public goods.
i think you should reexamine what was happening between 2000-2008 because during that time it was the neoclassical not keyensian models that held sway
when did an unregulated free market ever occur?
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I agree that each case is different, and I absolutely agree that Ireland is very different then, say Greece. But, I would disagree that the government guaranteeing bank debt wasn't a Keynesian move. That's 100% Keyensian. Even the property bubble itself, may have been fueled by government policy, as was the case here in the states. I don't know enough about the cause of the Irish property bubble to comment too much there, but I'd assume interest rates played a role.
I think Ireland has a lot of things going for it, but this shows that even if you have a tax structure that encourages FDI (which is a boon for Ireland), you can get burned by Keynesian policies, particularly if you're wrapped up in a larger pseudo-government via the EU.
I think many of your assumptions that lead you to being so anti keynsian are wrong, firstly countries continued to ignore many elements of Keynesian thinking such as the recommendation to avoid large trade imbalances and to reduce government deficits in boom years.
secondly free-market influences where strong in institutions like the World Bank, the IMF, and in media such as the Financial Times and The Economist. The consensus view that current account imbalances do not matter continued, with mainstream academic opinion only turning to the view that the imbalances are unsustainable by 2007.
Another anti Keynesian view that remained dominant in US and UK policy making circles was the idea that markets work best if they are unregulated.
the return to keynsian policy's only happened since 2008 in response to the failure of the unregulated free market system.
although that is not to say keynes is anti capitalist, my understanding of keynsian wrighting is that an economy should have a strong private sector underpinned by a public sector providing public goods.
i think you should reexamine what was happening between 2000-2008 because during that time it was the neoclassical not keyensian models that held sway
when did an unregulated free market ever occur?
okay so not completely unregulated but the push in the begining of the decade was for less and less regulation
I think many of your assumptions that lead you to being so anti keynsian are wrong, firstly countries continued to ignore many elements of Keynesian thinking such as the recommendation to avoid large trade imbalances and to reduce government deficits in boom years.
First, I think one issue of disagreement between us is that you seem to focus on Keynesian economics occurring only on the fiscal side, at least here you completely discount monetary policy (which can also be Keynesian in it's approach, and in fact, almost always is in today's world). I'd say Monetary policy matters even more so than fiscal policy, depending on the country discussed.
Second, regardless of whether countries did at times ignore certain aspects of Keynesian "fiscal" policy, they certainly did not engage in the opposite of Keynesian "fiscal" policy. It was Richard Nixon, a Republican in the states, who declared "we're all Keynesians now". That was a long time ago. Both parties in the U.S. have engaged in Keynesian policies ever since, as has the Fed.
secondly free-market influences where strong in institutions like the World Bank, the IMF, and in media such as the Financial Times and The Economist. The consensus view that current account imbalances do not matter continued, with mainstream academic opinion only turning to the view that the imbalances are unsustainable by 2007.
If you really think the World Bank or the IMF are free-market entities, you're completely kidding yourself... and most likely a lost cause to convince otherwise. Moreover, even if the Financial Times and The Economist did lean to the free-market side, what the hell does that matter to our discussion on government policies? They are news periodicals ha ha... The degree to which current account imbalances "matter" is dependent on the country in question. Regardless, trying to alter markets in your favor to improve your "current account" is not wise, but doing nothing about it is not necessarily anti-Keynesian.
Another anti-Keynesian view that remained dominant in US and UK policy making circles was the idea that markets work best if they are unregulated.
I'd argue markets do work best if unregulated and that view did not dominate in the U.S. at all. The reason why unregulated markets work better is anytime you fix prices, you create a dead-weight loss. This could impact the producer or the consumer or both. Regardless, of who it first impacts, it hits both down the line.
the return to keynsian policy's only happened since 2008 in response to the failure of the unregulated free market system.
That's laughable. Keynesian policy was running rampant pre-2008. I will speak about the U.S. government to explain. Ok, so post 9-11 and post the 01 recession, when the Fed lowered interest rates ... to spur spending... that wasn't Keynesian? If not, explain how. How about how they kept interest rates artificially low until about 2004, which spured demand for mortages? That wasn't Keynesian? A large bubble in housing was built in response. Before the bubble, government policies were established to increase home-ownership, were they Keynesian? Government policy has been Keynesian all along.
although that is not to say keynes is anti capitalist, my understanding of keynsian wrighting is that an economy should have a strong private sector underpinned by a public sector providing public goods.
Keynes is not necessarily 100% anti-capitalist, what he thought was government should steer markets, which is somewhat anti-free-market (and I suppose a bit anti-capitalist). He believed the government knows better than markets, and he believed you can control markets. He believed there was no or very limited costs to controlling markets because to quote him "in the long run we're all dead". His opponents also believe government can "steer" markets, but they believe there's an enormous cost down the line (in the long run) to doing such. These opponents believe the steering also becomes harder the more you do it. These opponents would say... this is the long run, and we're not dead.
Keynes also believed in government spending.... government spending was jumping well before 08, anyone who denies this is just wrong.
i think you should reexamine what was happening between 2000-2008 because during that time it was the neoclassical not keyensian models that held sway
No, it wasn't. I think you should re-examine what Keynesian economics really is. Once again, whenever government involved itself to steer markets (which was very evident, fiscally via the congressional push for higher home-ownership and the policies that pushed that and was also very evident in the Monetary Policy that pushed for lower interest rates for years post-01 to spur spending on everything including houses)... that's Keynesian economics in a nutshell.
The irony is the "cure" for Keynesian economics is always... more Keynesian economics, we saw this right after 01 when the dotcom bubble burst (which was built by Keynesian policies)... and then the recession/9-11 followed... we got more Keynesian policies to cure it... then we have this most recent recession... then the answer was more Keynesian policies.... now we're about to head into a new recession. And I ask a Keynesian, who was right? It's now the Long Run... and guess what, government has no money left to steer markets any more. Moreover, the steering has done little good. We should have taken the punch in the nose once, rather than repetitively taking shots to the face for years to come. That's what Keynes got us... but to him, we're dead now so it doesn't matter... um, I don't feel dead.
nice theories...if you guys live here today,all you gonna say complitly different things
WE know...
exactly Chryssa
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Well, it's a long and complex story to tell. I can explain my point of view, if you want. But I really don't feel like getting into an endless conflict because I don't need to convince anyone about anything. Anyone can have their own point of view and I respect it even if I don't embrace it.
Well, it's a long and complex story to tell. I can explain my point of view, if you want. But I really don't feel like getting into an endless conflict because I don't need to convince anyone about anything. Anyone can have their own point of view and I respect it even if I don't embrace it.
+ theories and statistics are good for talking,not for real life..
when numbers are good,people are poor..period..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Well, it's a long and complex story to tell. I can explain my point of view, if you want. But I really don't feel like getting into an endless conflict because I don't need to convince anyone about anything. Anyone can have their own point of view and I respect it even if I don't embrace it.
+ theories and statistics are good for talking,not for real life..
when numbers are good,people are poor..period..
You can imagine what is going on when numbers are NOT good... :?
It's too bad a situation like this brings out sweeping generalizations about an entire nation. How many media outlets have labeled Greeks as being lazy and entitled? Many of us do the same thing when talking about a wide variety of professions. Why is it so easy to label the dying middle class as lazy and self-serving, yet criticizing the wealthiest few who have taken obscene amounts of wealth they never earned is considered heresy?
It's too bad a situation like this brings out sweeping generalizations about an entire nation. How many media outlets have labeled Greeks as being lazy and entitled? Many of us do the same thing when talking about a wide variety of professions. Why is it so easy to label the dying middle class as lazy and self-serving, yet criticizing the wealthiest few who have taken obscene amounts of wealth they never earned is considered heresy?
thank you..for treat my country and the people of Greece with respect..thank you..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
thank you..for treat my country and the people of Greece with respect..thank you..
No problem. It sucks when people start treating their fellow human beings like dirt. The situation in Greece is nothing short of a tragedy. It's so easy to pick on people when they are in a bad spot rather than lending a hand and trying to pull them up. I really hope things work out; not just for Greece but for the rest of the world. We can be better than this.
It's too bad a situation like this brings out sweeping generalizations about an entire nation. How many media outlets have labeled Greeks as being lazy and entitled? Many of us do the same thing when talking about a wide variety of professions. Why is it so easy to label the dying middle class as lazy and self-serving, yet criticizing the wealthiest few who have taken obscene amounts of wealth they never earned is considered heresy?
Their issue is their government. They elected in that government. That government spent way more then it should have. Most of that money was spent on entitlement programs. I mean the numbers don't lie.
That said, did all Greeks vote for that? No. Did some not want an entitlement society? I'm sure. But, the majority did, and that's what they got.
Greece is not alone. This is happening to The West, pretty much everywhere, yet not quite to this level... I mean look at Italy today... look at the U.S. a month or so ago. We all got too cozy with some aspects of socialism and it's biting us all in the ass right now.
This is what happens when you expect someone else to take care of you; sometimes, unfortunately they can't. When it's the government you expected to care for you, this happens more often than it doesn't.
It's too bad a situation like this brings out sweeping generalizations about an entire nation. How many media outlets have labeled Greeks as being lazy and entitled? Many of us do the same thing when talking about a wide variety of professions. Why is it so easy to label the dying middle class as lazy and self-serving, yet criticizing the wealthiest few who have taken obscene amounts of wealth they never earned is considered heresy?
Their issue is their government. They elected in that government. That government spent way more then it should have. Most of that money was spent on entitlement programs. I mean the numbers don't lie.
That said, did all Greeks vote for that? No. Did some not want an entitlement society? I'm sure. But, the majority did, and that's what they got.
Greece is not alone. This is happening to The West, pretty much everywhere, yet not quite to this level... I mean look at Italy today... look at the U.S. a month or so ago. We all got too cozy with some aspects of socialism and it's biting us all in the ass right now.
This is what happens when you expect someone else to take care of you; sometimes, unfortunately they can't. When it's the government you expected to care for you, this happens more often than it doesn't.
your missing out on the massive tax evasion, just to blame one factor is Ridiculous
nice theories...if you guys live here today,all you gonna say complitly different things
WE know...
exactly Chryssa
what do you guys have to say about it? I am interested to hear what those who do live there feel about the entire mess?
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
It's too bad a situation like this brings out sweeping generalizations about an entire nation. How many media outlets have labeled Greeks as being lazy and entitled? Many of us do the same thing when talking about a wide variety of professions. Why is it so easy to label the dying middle class as lazy and self-serving, yet criticizing the wealthiest few who have taken obscene amounts of wealth they never earned is considered heresy?
Their issue is their government. They elected in that government. That government spent way more then it should have. Most of that money was spent on entitlement programs. I mean the numbers don't lie.
That said, did all Greeks vote for that? No. Did some not want an entitlement society? I'm sure. But, the majority did, and that's what they got.
Greece is not alone. This is happening to The West, pretty much everywhere, yet not quite to this level... I mean look at Italy today... look at the U.S. a month or so ago. We all got too cozy with some aspects of socialism and it's biting us all in the ass right now.
This is what happens when you expect someone else to take care of you; sometimes, unfortunately they can't. When it's the government you expected to care for you, this happens more often than it doesn't.
your missing out on the massive tax evasion, just to blame one factor is Ridiculous
I still blame government, and don't see how one can't.
I agree that tax evasion is also an issue (particularly in Italy)... but, it's a government issue nonetheless.
but just because there is bad governement you can't say we should then have little to no government...
haha,...
First and foremost, although I believe you said it in effort to make your point, please don't tell me what I can and can't say in the future, unless I'm breaking a board rule (which I wasn't by saying this issue is a government issue).
Second, I believe it was a mix of both bad government and large government that caused this problem. To me, in simplicity, that boils down to this being a government problem.
Third, the reason for that is big government breeds bad government. How? Through a variety of areas like bureaucracy, red-tape, over-reaching into the private sector and squashing private market incentives. Put simply, most efficient businesses maximize profits, whereas big government maximizes public labor... the only way to stop this inherent inefficiency in government is to place constraints on its size, or if needed to minimize it.
It's too bad a situation like this brings out sweeping generalizations about an entire nation. How many media outlets have labeled Greeks as being lazy and entitled? Many of us do the same thing when talking about a wide variety of professions. Why is it so easy to label the dying middle class as lazy and self-serving, yet criticizing the wealthiest few who have taken obscene amounts of wealth they never earned is considered heresy?
Their issue is their government. They elected in that government. That government spent way more then it should have. Most of that money was spent on entitlement programs. I mean the numbers don't lie.
That said, did all Greeks vote for that? No. Did some not want an entitlement society? I'm sure. But, the majority did, and that's what they got.
Greece is not alone. This is happening to The West, pretty much everywhere, yet not quite to this level... I mean look at Italy today... look at the U.S. a month or so ago. We all got too cozy with some aspects of socialism and it's biting us all in the ass right now.
This is what happens when you expect someone else to take care of you; sometimes, unfortunately they can't. When it's the government you expected to care for you, this happens more often than it doesn't.
Entitlement spending, why can't we cut military spending. I'd MUCH rather my tax dollars go to giving someone health care here than killing someone halfway around the world.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
Entitlement spending, why can't we cut military spending. I'd MUCH rather my tax dollars go to giving someone health care here than killing someone halfway around the world.
Who said we can't cut military spending? I'd rather "not" have my tax dollars go to the government to begin with. They will continue to add new entitlements (that will eventually go broke) and create new wars (that we can't pay for)... meanwhile, they will pickpocket other programs or print money to "act" like they are paying for them.
So, I don't care if my money goes to new entitlement programs like Obamacare or if it goes to wars abroad. Cut it all. We can't afford it.
Comments
In terms of your comments about the rise of wage and quality of life, I think this is a complete farce. It's no different from what we see in our own nation. Overall as a society, our wealth has grown, but in practice, it's the growing separation of wealth with the middle disappearing. More working poor, more people below the poverty level and yet overall by average, our nation's income has risen because although some make more than previously, the poor get a little more, but still no where near enough to survive on, and the rich get the vast majority of the increases. To speak about globalization and increase for all, so has the cost of living, but the human toll (hours worked, survivable wages, environmental cost) are still no where near being able to claim this is any sort of progress from an overall vantage point. It's no different from me telling you that you're getting $1 a day to $2 a day to work in a factory (which you can't survive on anyhow) and because of globalization, this cheap labor exists, but if not for globalization, there would be no factory. This is not progress but paints a clear picture of the type of real life scenario many claim are "improvements".
Anyways, back to Greece - yes any government and its citizens are directly responsible for their own debt and choices. I am not arguing that fact. But globalization enables the small infection to become a mass pandemic. The citizens of each nation are responsible for it's governments decisions. The bankers, corporations, and global economic organizations are held to no real oversight and rule of law. They are entities and rogues only liable to themselves. Greece can collapse and it's on Greece, the EU has issues it's on their collective nations.. but past that, wall street, the value of the dollar and the US economy's results..that's on globalization. Globalization allows for the world to be so interconnected, it's not always a good thing and in terms of unguarded investment and policies it leads to new areas of risk which in the long term backfire on both the shortsighted investors and the host nation being invested in. To steal a sports analogy we are now seeing now in the NCAA, free agency (schools) moving to different conferences for the highest bidder and best deals has ruined the notion of what was setup and intended. It polarizes the entire sport, and boils things down to one main focus and attainment, money and greed. The human element is lost and cast aside. That's globalization, there's no real altruistic or triumphant goal.. the goal is money and control. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm not silly enough to believe in a utopian world where everyone has everything, but I'm also not naive enough to call servitude and imperialism as a common good and betterment for the world.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I think your wrong to blame globalization, the same happened in the great depression when there was far less globalisation and in fact a Breakdown of international trade is one of the reasons the great depression happened
The great depression had a wide variety of causes but none of them where as wide spread to infect the other as much as we see in the manner we see international problems occur nowadays and not in same way. Many large nations had issues during the great depression, this current matter of Greece is a small nation effecting the greater world.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
well its more like louisana going bankrupt and affecting america which would then affect the world, the eu itself is a pretty big economic power
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
I agree that each case is different, and I absolutely agree that Ireland is very different then, say Greece. But, I would disagree that the government guaranteeing bank debt wasn't a Keynesian move. That's 100% Keyensian. Even the property bubble itself, may have been fueled by government policy, as was the case here in the states. I don't know enough about the cause of the Irish property bubble to comment too much there, but I'd assume interest rates played a role.
I think Ireland has a lot of things going for it, but this shows that even if you have a tax structure that encourages FDI (which is a boon for Ireland), you can get burned by Keynesian policies, particularly if you're wrapped up in a larger pseudo-government via the EU.
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I think many of your assumptions that lead you to being so anti keynsian are wrong, firstly countries continued to ignore many elements of Keynesian thinking such as the recommendation to avoid large trade imbalances and to reduce government deficits in boom years.
secondly free-market influences where strong in institutions like the World Bank, the IMF, and in media such as the Financial Times and The Economist. The consensus view that current account imbalances do not matter continued, with mainstream academic opinion only turning to the view that the imbalances are unsustainable by 2007.
Another anti Keynesian view that remained dominant in US and UK policy making circles was the idea that markets work best if they are unregulated.
the return to keynsian policy's only happened since 2008 in response to the failure of the unregulated free market system.
although that is not to say keynes is anti capitalist, my understanding of keynsian wrighting is that an economy should have a strong private sector underpinned by a public sector providing public goods.
i think you should reexamine what was happening between 2000-2008 because during that time it was the neoclassical not keyensian models that held sway
when did an unregulated free market ever occur?
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
okay so not completely unregulated but the push in the begining of the decade was for less and less regulation
First, I think one issue of disagreement between us is that you seem to focus on Keynesian economics occurring only on the fiscal side, at least here you completely discount monetary policy (which can also be Keynesian in it's approach, and in fact, almost always is in today's world). I'd say Monetary policy matters even more so than fiscal policy, depending on the country discussed.
Second, regardless of whether countries did at times ignore certain aspects of Keynesian "fiscal" policy, they certainly did not engage in the opposite of Keynesian "fiscal" policy. It was Richard Nixon, a Republican in the states, who declared "we're all Keynesians now". That was a long time ago. Both parties in the U.S. have engaged in Keynesian policies ever since, as has the Fed.
If you really think the World Bank or the IMF are free-market entities, you're completely kidding yourself... and most likely a lost cause to convince otherwise. Moreover, even if the Financial Times and The Economist did lean to the free-market side, what the hell does that matter to our discussion on government policies? They are news periodicals ha ha... The degree to which current account imbalances "matter" is dependent on the country in question. Regardless, trying to alter markets in your favor to improve your "current account" is not wise, but doing nothing about it is not necessarily anti-Keynesian.
I'd argue markets do work best if unregulated and that view did not dominate in the U.S. at all. The reason why unregulated markets work better is anytime you fix prices, you create a dead-weight loss. This could impact the producer or the consumer or both. Regardless, of who it first impacts, it hits both down the line.
That's laughable. Keynesian policy was running rampant pre-2008. I will speak about the U.S. government to explain. Ok, so post 9-11 and post the 01 recession, when the Fed lowered interest rates ... to spur spending... that wasn't Keynesian? If not, explain how. How about how they kept interest rates artificially low until about 2004, which spured demand for mortages? That wasn't Keynesian? A large bubble in housing was built in response. Before the bubble, government policies were established to increase home-ownership, were they Keynesian? Government policy has been Keynesian all along.
Keynes is not necessarily 100% anti-capitalist, what he thought was government should steer markets, which is somewhat anti-free-market (and I suppose a bit anti-capitalist). He believed the government knows better than markets, and he believed you can control markets. He believed there was no or very limited costs to controlling markets because to quote him "in the long run we're all dead". His opponents also believe government can "steer" markets, but they believe there's an enormous cost down the line (in the long run) to doing such. These opponents believe the steering also becomes harder the more you do it. These opponents would say... this is the long run, and we're not dead.
Keynes also believed in government spending.... government spending was jumping well before 08, anyone who denies this is just wrong.
No, it wasn't. I think you should re-examine what Keynesian economics really is. Once again, whenever government involved itself to steer markets (which was very evident, fiscally via the congressional push for higher home-ownership and the policies that pushed that and was also very evident in the Monetary Policy that pushed for lower interest rates for years post-01 to spur spending on everything including houses)... that's Keynesian economics in a nutshell.
The irony is the "cure" for Keynesian economics is always... more Keynesian economics, we saw this right after 01 when the dotcom bubble burst (which was built by Keynesian policies)... and then the recession/9-11 followed... we got more Keynesian policies to cure it... then we have this most recent recession... then the answer was more Keynesian policies.... now we're about to head into a new recession. And I ask a Keynesian, who was right? It's now the Long Run... and guess what, government has no money left to steer markets any more. Moreover, the steering has done little good. We should have taken the punch in the nose once, rather than repetitively taking shots to the face for years to come. That's what Keynes got us... but to him, we're dead now so it doesn't matter... um, I don't feel dead.
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WE know...
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
So what's going on then?
If it's anything like Episode II, I know exactly what's going on.
On a serious note though, I hope Greece gets through this sooner then later.
Well, it's a long and complex story to tell. I can explain my point of view, if you want. But I really don't feel like getting into an endless conflict because I don't need to convince anyone about anything. Anyone can have their own point of view and I respect it even if I don't embrace it.
when numbers are good,people are poor..period..
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
You can imagine what is going on when numbers are NOT good... :?
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
No problem. It sucks when people start treating their fellow human beings like dirt. The situation in Greece is nothing short of a tragedy. It's so easy to pick on people when they are in a bad spot rather than lending a hand and trying to pull them up. I really hope things work out; not just for Greece but for the rest of the world. We can be better than this.
Their issue is their government. They elected in that government. That government spent way more then it should have. Most of that money was spent on entitlement programs. I mean the numbers don't lie.
That said, did all Greeks vote for that? No. Did some not want an entitlement society? I'm sure. But, the majority did, and that's what they got.
Greece is not alone. This is happening to The West, pretty much everywhere, yet not quite to this level... I mean look at Italy today... look at the U.S. a month or so ago. We all got too cozy with some aspects of socialism and it's biting us all in the ass right now.
This is what happens when you expect someone else to take care of you; sometimes, unfortunately they can't. When it's the government you expected to care for you, this happens more often than it doesn't.
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your missing out on the massive tax evasion, just to blame one factor is Ridiculous
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ia ... o-incomes/
what do you guys have to say about it? I am interested to hear what those who do live there feel about the entire mess?
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I still blame government, and don't see how one can't.
I agree that tax evasion is also an issue (particularly in Italy)... but, it's a government issue nonetheless.
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but just because there is bad governement you can't say we should then have little to no government...
haha,...
First and foremost, although I believe you said it in effort to make your point, please don't tell me what I can and can't say in the future, unless I'm breaking a board rule (which I wasn't by saying this issue is a government issue).
Second, I believe it was a mix of both bad government and large government that caused this problem. To me, in simplicity, that boils down to this being a government problem.
Third, the reason for that is big government breeds bad government. How? Through a variety of areas like bureaucracy, red-tape, over-reaching into the private sector and squashing private market incentives. Put simply, most efficient businesses maximize profits, whereas big government maximizes public labor... the only way to stop this inherent inefficiency in government is to place constraints on its size, or if needed to minimize it.
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Entitlement spending, why can't we cut military spending. I'd MUCH rather my tax dollars go to giving someone health care here than killing someone halfway around the world.
Who said we can't cut military spending? I'd rather "not" have my tax dollars go to the government to begin with. They will continue to add new entitlements (that will eventually go broke) and create new wars (that we can't pay for)... meanwhile, they will pickpocket other programs or print money to "act" like they are paying for them.
So, I don't care if my money goes to new entitlement programs like Obamacare or if it goes to wars abroad. Cut it all. We can't afford it.
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