Home› A Moving Train

Greece

FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
edited March 2012 in A Moving Train
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Greek-turmoil-sends-US-and-apf-2652398969.html?x=0

Proof positive that capitalism in extreme forms is awful. Greece is being responsible to its debts and in order to right the ship on their own terms and maintain a future of their own, this somehow causes the US dollar, Euro and Stock market serious problems. Talk about ass-backwards! Anyone want to try and say that the IMF or WB debt programs help nations, cause this is living proof reiterating the opposite.

It's no coincidence that the richest nations are also the most guilty of this offense... no one practices what they preach. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html
CONservative governMENt

Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Post edited by Unknown User on
«13

Comments

  • dimitrispearljamdimitrispearljam Posts: 139,721
    this will be fun...
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Good luck!!!
    dimitrispearljam wrote:
    this will be fun...
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    FiveB247x wrote:
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Greek-turmoil-sends-US-and-apf-2652398969.html?x=0

    Proof positive that capitalism in extreme forms is awful. Greece is being responsible to its debts and in order to right the ship on their own terms and maintain a future of their own, this somehow causes the US dollar, Euro and Stock market serious problems. Talk about ass-backwards! Anyone want to try and say that the IMF or WB debt programs help nations, cause this is living proof reiterating the opposite.

    It's no coincidence that the richest nations are also the most guilty of this offense... no one practices what they preach. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html


    I don't know a ton about the greece debt situation, but could someone with knowledge of the situation please explain to me how extreme capitalism caused this? From my understanding it is a government debt situation. I must be way off...any good links? don't have a lot of time to search today.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,156
    It's all greek to me.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • dimitrispearljamdimitrispearljam Posts: 139,721
    Jason P wrote:
    It's all greek to me.
    and all chinese to me...
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    Jason P wrote:
    It's all greek to me.
    I would try to look up pictures of a rim shot but am afraid to search on a work computer
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Greece's debt crisis was caused by them overspending. That's on them. The fact that Greece's situation causes massive problems for the EU, US dollar and our economy is a cause of extreme capitalism. Because they are seeking to not take bailouts and adjust the problems directly, it causes all these problems for us....this is a result of globalization, privatization and world economies being in cahoots through the World Bank and IMF debt relief programs. Instead of these organizations existing for the betterment and help of a nation in need, they become nations to plunder and incorporate into their system.
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    FiveB247x wrote:
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Greek-turmoil-sends-US-and-apf-2652398969.html?x=0

    Proof positive that capitalism in extreme forms is awful. Greece is being responsible to its debts and in order to right the ship on their own terms and maintain a future of their own, this somehow causes the US dollar, Euro and Stock market serious problems. Talk about ass-backwards! Anyone want to try and say that the IMF or WB debt programs help nations, cause this is living proof reiterating the opposite.

    It's no coincidence that the richest nations are also the most guilty of this offense... no one practices what they preach. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html


    I don't know a ton about the greece debt situation, but could someone with knowledge of the situation please explain to me how extreme capitalism caused this? From my understanding it is a government debt situation. I must be way off...any good links? don't have a lot of time to search today.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Greece's debt crisis was caused by them overspending. That's on them. The fact that Greece's situation causes massive problems for the EU, US dollar and our economy is a cause of extreme capitalism. Because they are seeking to not take bailouts and adjust the problems directly, it causes all these problems for us....this is a result of globalization, privatization and world economies being in cahoots through the World Bank and IMF debt relief programs. Instead of these organizations existing for the betterment and help of a nation in need, they become nations to plunder and incorporate into their system.
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    FiveB247x wrote:
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Greek-turmoil-sends-US-and-apf-2652398969.html?x=0

    Proof positive that capitalism in extreme forms is awful. Greece is being responsible to its debts and in order to right the ship on their own terms and maintain a future of their own, this somehow causes the US dollar, Euro and Stock market serious problems. Talk about ass-backwards! Anyone want to try and say that the IMF or WB debt programs help nations, cause this is living proof reiterating the opposite.

    It's no coincidence that the richest nations are also the most guilty of this offense... no one practices what they preach. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html


    I don't know a ton about the greece debt situation, but could someone with knowledge of the situation please explain to me how extreme capitalism caused this? From my understanding it is a government debt situation. I must be way off...any good links? don't have a lot of time to search today.


    do you advocate economic isolationism?
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Things in life don't have to be in extreme forms only.. I don't advocate for isolationism nor do I advocate the economic imperialism which is exactly what we see currently.
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    do you advocate economic isolationism?
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    FiveB247x wrote:
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Greek-turmoil-sends-US-and-apf-2652398969.html?x=0

    Proof positive that capitalism in extreme forms is awful. Greece is being responsible to its debts and in order to right the ship on their own terms and maintain a future of their own, this somehow causes the US dollar, Euro and Stock market serious problems. Talk about ass-backwards! Anyone want to try and say that the IMF or WB debt programs help nations, cause this is living proof reiterating the opposite.

    It's no coincidence that the richest nations are also the most guilty of this offense... no one practices what they preach. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html


    No offense, bro, but apparently you don't understand the problem. The issue here is government, entitlements... and basically Keynesian economics. It's a Greek issue, but the issue is also the EU, which is another form of government. The truth is, this wouldn't be as big of an issue if Greece was isolated and not directly tied to the EU. The reason their debt problems could hurt us all the way over here is common sense. Who will bailout Greece? Germany, maybe France... in other words, the EU. Yet, the EU has a bunch of other countries in this sort of bind lining up behind Greece. Those countries who would help Greece realize this and want austerity measures by Greece because Greeks are spending way over their credit limit, and the truth is every economy over there is in a bit of a bind. Now, Greece is saying they won't partake in that, as if they can keep spending and not get cut off by their creditors. What effects Greece effects the EU. What effects the EU effects the global economy. This is a government problem. Sure, you could argue that it's an issue of global government... but, it's a government problem. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about.
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

    <object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt; <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    I fully understand the source of the problem was government spending... what you fail to acknowledge is why the problem effects so many other places.. that's not solely governments, but more importantly, markets connected via greed and globalization. The entire notion of corporate capitalism narrows the scopes of power and put them all on the same system and in connection like a spider web. That's all we see here.. one domino falling and brushing into the next. And albeit in some respects you are correct that the government is liable, but with that said, what about the rest of the rich nations who do this same exact thing with overspending, etc...yet there is no complaint or adjustment? Have a look at the list in the link I post and see who the biggest culprits of this type of action is... all rich, industrialized nations...and yeah, the same one's who own most of the world's wealth, the same one's collecting the debt of the poor world and the same one's transferring money from public to private hands.
    inlet13 wrote:
    No offense, bro, but apparently you don't understand the problem. The issue here is government, entitlements... and basically Keynesian economics. It's a Greek issue, but the issue is also the EU, which is another form of government. The truth is, this wouldn't be as big of an issue if Greece was isolated and not directly tied to the EU. The reason their debt problems could hurt us all the way over here is common sense. Who will bailout Greece? Germany, maybe France... in other words, the EU. Yet, the EU has a bunch of other countries in this sort of bind lining up behind Greece. Those countries who would help Greece realize this and want austerity measures by Greece because Greeks are spending way over their credit limit, and the truth is every economy over there is in a bit of a bind. Now, Greece is saying they won't partake in that, as if they can keep spending and not get cut off by their creditors. What effects Greece effects the EU. What effects the EU effects the global economy. This is a government problem. Sure, you could argue that it's an issue of global government... but, it's a government problem. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    FiveB247x wrote:
    I fully understand the source of the problem was government spending... what you fail to acknowledge is why the problem effects so many other places.. that's not solely governments, but more importantly, markets connected via greed and globalization.

    I don't deny that globalization plays a role in the fact that there's a semi-domino effect from one government's poor decision to anothers. But, I spelled out the fact that this has little to do with capitalism. It's actually more about globalized government. Like I said before, it's really an EU issue. Greece is pretty small, they wouldn't be making waves like this alone, even in an ultra capitalist system.... the issue is investors know the EU is tied to Greece, and the EU has a bunch of members (Portugal, Italy, Spain, Ireland) with similar problems... in other words, they can't keep doing this.

    FiveB247x wrote:
    The entire notion of corporate capitalism narrows the scopes of power and put them all on the same system and in connection like a spider web. That's all we see here.. one domino falling and brushing into the next. And albeit in some respects you are correct that the government is liable, but with that said, what about the rest of the rich nations who do this same exact thing with overspending, etc...yet there is no complaint or adjustment?

    I find this last sentence funny. So, let's get this straight... there's no complaint that the U.S. government is overspending? You serious? The entire Tea Party movement was pretty much about that fact. Their goal was to minimize government.

    Regardless on whether you believe there's a lot out there who are touting to minimize government spending or not... I welcome you to our clan. I want to minimize government spending because I realize this Greek situation is where we're heading, but it would be much, much worse.
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Have a look at the list in the link I post and see who the biggest culprits of this type of action is... all rich, industrialized nations...and yeah, the same one's who own most of the world's wealth, the same one's collecting the debt of the poor world and the same one's transferring money from public to private hands.

    The culprits of this type of action are countries that have high debt to GDP ratios. So, I don't really know where you're going with this. Does the U.S. have a high debt to GDP ratio? Yes. Should they lower spending? Yes. If they don't could we end up in a situation similar to Greece? Yes. Who's touting more spending? The Obama administration. Why? They think by spending more, that would lessen the debt to GDP ratio by increasing the GDP portion, and they love spending because that's what their base wants. Republicans also engaged in reckless spending in the past too (look at the Bush administration), so it's not just Dems. The "current" Republicans (Tea Party) counter is saying cut spending and by doing so work on the debt portion and then provide tax incentives to increase the GDP part. The issue is they both "could" be right. I side more with the Republican approach because I realize that the Democrat (and Bush Republican approach) is Keynesian, and is really the logic that got us here to begin with.... put simply, it doesn't work. Let's try something new.
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

    <object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt; <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Things in life don't have to be in extreme forms only.. I don't advocate for isolationism nor do I advocate the economic imperialism which is exactly what we see currently.
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    do you advocate economic isolationism?


    agreed things don't have to be extreme, but you can either have a global economy or not. You really cannot have half of one, or a little bit of one...

    what would you have changed in this situation to avoid the greek debt crisis causing trouble for the rest of the world? How would you have fought the economic imperialism without hurting the countries currently affected by the debt crisis?
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    i read that the eu is all up in arms because the greek people are now getting to vote on the deal that had been worked out. this is going to get good.

    also the head of the military has been sacked. from what i have read greece has a history of military coups...
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Kel VarnsenKel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Things in life don't have to be in extreme forms only.. I don't advocate for isolationism nor do I advocate the economic imperialism which is exactly what we see currently.
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    do you advocate economic isolationism?


    agreed things don't have to be extreme, but you can either have a global economy or not. You really cannot have half of one, or a little bit of one...

    what would you have changed in this situation to avoid the greek debt crisis causing trouble for the rest of the world? How would you have fought the economic imperialism without hurting the countries currently affected by the debt crisis?

    My limited understanding is that a big part of the problem is a shared currency over a bunch of countires that have independant economies. So Greece has the power to rack up a ton of debt if they want to but when it comes time to pay it off, they don't have the option of printing off a bunch of money to pay it off since they use Euros not their own currency.
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    i read that the eu is all up in arms because the greek people are now getting to vote on the deal that had been worked out. this is going to get good.

    also the head of the military has been sacked. from what i have read greece has a history of military coups...


    My bet:

    This will go up and down, just like it has (and we'll all see this reflected in our stock market, 1000 up one week, 1000 back the next). The Greek government has to know what's at stake. So, they will pretend to go along with the EU, but at the same time they will gimmick to get on the good side of their citizens. At some point the house of cards will collapse.

    This will get very, very ugly. Probably once Italy gets more of the spotlight. Once investors and the general citizen becomes aware of how pervasive this problem is... it will be all out terror.

    Recession #2, here we come... just a matter of when.
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

    <object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt; <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
  • dimitrispearljamdimitrispearljam Posts: 139,721
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    i read that the eu is all up in arms because the greek people are now getting to vote on the deal that had been worked out. this is going to get good.

    also the head of the military has been sacked. from what i have read greece has a history of military coups...
    yep...they changed everyone this morning..
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    dimitrispearljam wrote:
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    i read that the eu is all up in arms because the greek people are now getting to vote on the deal that had been worked out. this is going to get good.

    also the head of the military has been sacked. from what i have read greece has a history of military coups...
    yep...they changed everyone this morning..
    wow...

    is riot dog still alive?
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • MotoDCMotoDC Posts: 947
    Kel wrote:
    So Greece has the power to rack up a ton of debt if they want to but when it comes time to pay it off, they don't have the option of printing off a bunch of money to pay it off since they use Euros not their own currency.
    The EU has strict rules against this, but as you alluded to, apparently no way to enforce it.

    Five -- Greece's turmoil has broader impacts because international banks own (i) Greek debt, (ii) derivative instruments whose valuations are based on USD/EUR fluctuations, and (iii) EUR currency directly. You say you don't advocate isolationsism, but do you advocate disallowing these cross-border investments? Or limiting the volumes by law?

    inlet -- I wouldn't presume to get into an economic debate with a professor of such, but the above-described investments are indeed at the core of capitalism. Specifically, the ability of capital (money) to find its way to where it will be most effectively (as measured by profit) used. I know you don't need to be told that, but it seems like you and Five are arguing different steps in this process. Govt overspending and entitlements in Greece (though that particular problem is not limited to Greece) are the starter charge, globalization is the TNT. Although I don't believe globalization is necessarily a key tenet of laissez faire capitalism, it is certainly a predictable outcome.
  • dimitrispearljamdimitrispearljam Posts: 139,721
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    dimitrispearljam wrote:
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    i read that the eu is all up in arms because the greek people are now getting to vote on the deal that had been worked out. this is going to get good.

    also the head of the military has been sacked. from what i have read greece has a history of military coups...
    yep...they changed everyone this morning..
    wow...

    is riot dog still alive?
    we had our national celebratiion,kinda your 4th of July 5 days ago..at the half cities the parade didnt happened,cos of the attack of people to politicians...today all the military leader changed,Airforce ,Navy,Army.and the General of all the military..this isnt good..
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • satansbedsatansbed Posts: 2,139
    countries such as Greece and Italy should have taken advantage of lower interest rates when they joined the euro zone to develop their economies and infrastructure and become more competitive instead of using it on current spending, greece has structural problems and until they deal with them there will be no room for growth. the medicine may not taste nice but they should man up and take it, it will be better in the long run
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Firstly, inlet, you continue to dance around the fact that the reason the EU exists, the reason there is such a thing as a domino effect inside the EU or into our own economy at such dramatic effect is because of globalization and capitalism to extreme forms. It's arguable whether they are directly the cause of such issues for one specific nation in this instance, but the reality is the main reason it effects all involved as a dramatic result is because of these items. You continue to separate it as if it is 2 separate cases - it is not. It's the butterfly effect in practice. Also in terms of the US debt, the reality is whether its the group you mention or even our own government, they are just talking points and not much has been address to actually fix our debt and system which are far out of whack - and that is not directly at one party, leader or similar. Our collective failures for decades have led us to this point. I am not attempting to turn this thread into a debate about party politics or similar. My comments are aimed at discussing not solely why Greece is in the trouble they are, but more importantly, why those results are so largely looming on the rest of the world.

    Mikepeg44- I think with how things work in the global, technological age, the availability to influence and change nations, usually not for the better in terms of long term stability, is very detrimental to the well being of most. Of course there has to be and will be lots of trade, lending and programs to help all involved, but the reality is that these systems as they are currently setup (the IMF, WB, G8, trade agreements like NAFTA or CAFTA and globalization coupled with privatization and corporate agendas), they are setup for the rich to plunder the poor nations and do not in any serious manner, better the nations in need for the long term. Perhaps the system needs revamping, perhaps there needs to be better oversight and less privatization, but overall, globalization and the results of it do not help those in need and most importantly, benefit the already rich and powerful nations and businesses. That's not development, it's control and plunder.

    And this leads me to my last point, which I happen to read in an article about a totally separate topic but I thought more aptly hits the nail on the head in regards to capitalism, globalization and many of these matters. "Give Americans a chance to be greedy and noble at the same time, and the cultural momentum becomes unstoppable." It doesn't have to be directly just about Americans per say, but in terms of the ultimate goals of globalization and capitalism, what we see are not accidents, but rather common outputs of a system which is constantly looking for more and more. In the US, the housing market burst and we got stuck with the bill because our banks and wall street were constantly seeking the next new group to profit from. Like Argentina before, now Greece - they're just a few examples of what happens when "never-enough" is what you seek, it merely blows up at some point.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    MotoDC wrote:

    inlet -- I wouldn't presume to get into an economic debate with a professor of such, but the above-described investments are indeed at the core of capitalism. Specifically, the ability of capital (money) to find its way to where it will be most effectively (as measured by profit) used. I know you don't need to be told that, but it seems like you and Five are arguing different steps in this process. Govt overspending and entitlements in Greece (though that particular problem is not limited to Greece) are the starter charge, globalization is the TNT. Although I don't believe globalization is necessarily a key tenet of laissez faire capitalism, it is certainly a predictable outcome.



    You can get into a debate or discuss these issues with me. I mean if we're honest, even Nobel laureates in economics are often wrong, and trust me, I'm no Nobel laureate. But, on this issue I still claim anyone who blasts this problem as a fault of capitalism is very ignorant, or more likely (on here) they are probably someone who's a socialist (or close to it).

    This is a problem of government debt. Socialists like to ignore government problems and cast the blame on capitalism. Sure, other factors are at play. But, government debt is a government problem. So, just to clarify again, the inherent problem with Greece is a government problem, not a capitalistic issue. Capitalism refers to investment and ownership of the means of production being private (or privately held). By the very definition of capitalism, government problems are not a capitalist issue. The problem in Greece is government, and could be considered more of a socialist issue.

    Why's it spreading? Well, in my opinion, the first reason is the EU. Once again, another government entity. Although Greece is a very small entity, the EU is a very large economy. The EU has it's hands tied because it's member nations (in the south) have also racked up so much debt (government problems), primarily due to entitlement spending, etc (government or socialist problems). So, the EU is having trouble with Greece right now and is demanding austerity measures (government problems). Greece is having trouble buying in... all of the above so far is government. And I should also mention again, that this problem (although on a semi-less scale) is propping up elsewhere in the EU (the south)... so they can't do much, but hope they don't also implode.

    If the EU goes into recession, the rest of the world will feel it. This bring us to our next issue: globalization. Will we feel the EU recession more so because of the interconnectedness? Yes. Is capitalism partially to blame for that? I suppose so. But, that's not the only reason our markets here are being rattled by what's going on over there. Trade is a major reason, financial markets connectivity and globalized business are another... but, what's ignored is investors know the U.S. is also running into similar "debt" problems, which brings us back to government.

    At the end of the day, I suppose I see how one can argue capitalism is involved in how this filters to "other countries". But, the origin of the problem is in government. Without that origin, this negative filtration would never occur. It's like saying if some guy named Greece is takes a crap load of over the counter pills, which kills him. People find out about this over facebook and get depressed. The argument that capitalism is the root of this problem is like saying what got those people depressed was facebook, not what Greece did to themselves. The origin of the problem is Greece and is government. That's my point.
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

    <object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt; <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Firstly, inlet, you continue to dance around the fact that the reason the EU exists, the reason there is such a thing as a domino effect inside the EU or into our own economy at such dramatic effect is because of globalization and capitalism to extreme forms. It's arguable whether they are directly the cause of such issues for one specific nation in this instance, but the reality is the main reason it effects all involved as a dramatic result is because of these items. You continue to separate it as if it is 2 separate cases - it is not. It's the butterfly effect in practice. Also in terms of the US debt, the reality is whether its the group you mention or even our own government, they are just talking points and not much has been address to actually fix our debt and system which are far out of whack - and that is not directly at one party, leader or similar. Our collective failures for decades have led us to this point. I am not attempting to turn this thread into a debate about party politics or similar. My comments are aimed at discussing not solely why Greece is in the trouble they are, but more importantly, why those results are so largely looming on the rest of the world.

    Put simply: Greece is in trouble because of entitlement spending, and just government spending in general. The EU is in trouble because of Greece (and Italy, and Spain, and Portugal, and Ireland) and out of control government spending, and their avocation of Keynesian style fiscal policy. The world economy is in trouble because the EU is a large economy, and these problems of out of control government spending aren't contained only in the EU (look at the US as an example).

    You want to make capitalism the evil here. While, it's pretty easy to see the real scapegoat is government-related, or just a form of government policy: Keynesian. The reason I object to your points is you're trying to mislead. You're saying that we're feeling this here because of globalization and capitalism, insinuating that globalization and capitalism are bad and the CAUSE. I'm countering saying, what's the opposite of capitalism? What's the alternative? Generally, an alternative is government-related.... and I'm saying, guess what... the trigger here is: Government. The trigger here is Keynesian policies. This was easily predicted because bubbles are built within that framework and they pop. The trouble is figuring out the bubble. This time it's the government itself.
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

    <object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt; <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    You are not understanding my main point. I am not saying capitalism and globalization are at fault for these nations over-spending and such - that is on the specific government and people of the specific nation. I am saying the results thereafter which greatly impact the rest of the world ARE the fault of these two key items and a much more dramatic and catastrophic result for all involved. You continually separate them as if they are outside of the scope and not connected. Greece is in trouble, which causes problems for the EU, which causes problems for the markets and the value of the dollar and our economy and so forth. That is not solely on governments... the start of it is, but the rest is capitalism and globalization.
    inlet13 wrote:
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Firstly, inlet, you continue to dance around the fact that the reason the EU exists, the reason there is such a thing as a domino effect inside the EU or into our own economy at such dramatic effect is because of globalization and capitalism to extreme forms. It's arguable whether they are directly the cause of such issues for one specific nation in this instance, but the reality is the main reason it effects all involved as a dramatic result is because of these items. You continue to separate it as if it is 2 separate cases - it is not. It's the butterfly effect in practice. Also in terms of the US debt, the reality is whether its the group you mention or even our own government, they are just talking points and not much has been address to actually fix our debt and system which are far out of whack - and that is not directly at one party, leader or similar. Our collective failures for decades have led us to this point. I am not attempting to turn this thread into a debate about party politics or similar. My comments are aimed at discussing not solely why Greece is in the trouble they are, but more importantly, why those results are so largely looming on the rest of the world.

    Put simply: Greece is in trouble because of entitlement spending, and just government spending in general. The EU is in trouble because of Greece (and Italy, and Spain, and Portugal, and Ireland) and out of control government spending, and their avocation of Keynesian style fiscal policy. The world economy is in trouble because the EU is a large economy, and these problems of out of control government spending aren't contained only in the EU (look at the US as an example).

    You want to make capitalism the evil here. While, it's pretty easy to see the real scapegoat is government-related, or just a form of government policy: Keynesian. The reason I object to your points is you're trying to mislead. You're saying that we're feeling this here because of globalization and capitalism, insinuating that globalization and capitalism are bad and the CAUSE. I'm countering saying, what's the opposite of capitalism? What's the alternative? Generally, an alternative is government-related.... and I'm saying, guess what... the trigger here is: Government. The trigger here is Keynesian policies. This was easily predicted because bubbles are built within that framework and they pop. The trouble is figuring out the bubble. This time it's the government itself.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    FiveB247x wrote:
    You are not understanding my main point. I am not saying capitalism and globalization are at fault for these nations over-spending and such - that is on the specific government and people of the specific nation. I am saying the results thereafter which greatly impact the rest of the world ARE the fault of these two key items and a much more dramatic and catastrophic result for all involved. You continually separate them as if they are outside of the scope and not connected. Greece is in trouble, which causes problems for the EU, which causes problems for the markets and the value of the dollar and our economy and so forth. That is not solely on governments... the start of it is, but the rest is capitalism and globalization.

    Here's what I'd respond: capitalism and globalization clearly make the world more connected. This amplifies how we respond to a countries ups and depresses how we respond to a countries declines at the margin. So, with that, I suppose I would semi-agree. But, I'd add here: don't forget the ups. In that sense, it's like an environment.

    My issue with what you're saying is with how the environment is portrayed as the problem. Even to us, all the way over here, capitalism and globalization aren't the real issue. If Greece had never been dumb with their government finances, we would not be dealing with any Greek-related problems. The issue is Greece and their debt. The issue is how the EU is handling their member's debt dilemma. Perhaps, the issue is also that so many governments (including ours) are doing similar things like Greece. That, to me, is the real issue.

    As for capitalism and globalization...

    To use a football analogy: When I cast blame for my QB making a dumb pass, I don't blame the fact that they are playing on a particular field,... I blame the player who made the dumb play. Greece is the player. Capitalism and globalization are the environment or in my example, parts of the field the players are playing on. I wouldn't blame the field. I don't blame the environment...

    ...particularly when the environment (capitalism/globalization) have led to such an advance in standard of livings and average life expectancy world wide since it's advent.
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

    <object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt; <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    The Ups...you mention the standard of living or life expediency ages.. standard of living is not the same livable wages or quality of life..and no I don't mean everyone needs an Iphone and PS3. The reality is that globalization merely continues the polarization of economic standing in the world. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The notion that all boats rise with a rising tide is a false premise. There is not one example of a nation in the world that has gone through the economic development via programs of the IMF and WB that have had any long term stability and success. If you take on these loans and programs, you will not get out of them and your society pays the price. It's also worth mentioning that the very same methods that these rich nations and organizations prescribe for developing and poor nations are not the same in which they have ever run their own economies or the manner which led them to stability/success.

    Anyways, in terms of Greece, we can all blame them and that's great, but if one small nation can corrupt the entire global economy, there is something a miss with that global economy and system. You are more focused on Greece (which deserves it's own blame) while not really addressing and acknowledging the fact this is a house of cards scenario. You can blame one card for not holding their end up, but if the whole system is predicated on such, it's very, very false and faulty logistical setup.
    inlet13 wrote:
    Here's what I'd respond: capitalism and globalization clearly make the world more connected. This amplifies how we respond to a countries ups and depresses how we respond to a countries declines at the margin. So, with that, I suppose I would semi-agree. But, I'd add here: don't forget the ups. In that sense, it's like an environment.

    My issue with what you're saying is with how the environment is portrayed as the problem. Even to us, all the way over here, capitalism and globalization aren't the real issue. If Greece had never been dumb with their government finances, we would not be dealing with any Greek-related problems. The issue is Greece and their debt. The issue is how the EU is handling their member's debt dilemma. Perhaps, the issue is also that so many governments (including ours) are doing similar things like Greece. That, to me, is the real issue.

    As for capitalism and globalization...

    To use a football analogy: When I cast blame for my QB making a dumb pass, I don't blame the fact that they are playing on a particular field,... I blame the player who made the dumb play. Greece is the player. Capitalism and globalization are the environment or in my example, parts of the field the players are playing on. I wouldn't blame the field. I don't blame the environment...

    ...particularly when the environment (capitalism/globalization) have led to such an advance in standard of livings and average life expectancy world wide since it's advent.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    FiveB247x wrote:
    The Ups...you mention the standard of living or life expediency ages.. standard of living is not the same livable wages or quality of life..and no I don't mean everyone needs an Iphone and PS3.


    When I said standard of living and life expectancy, I meant even broader... I meant worldwide. There's no doubt that the standard of living and the average life expectancy has increased over the past hundred to two hundred years worldwide. I'd say even over the past fifty years it's improved further worldwide.

    When you say standard of living and life expectancy is not the same as living wages and quality of life, I'd yes they are not 'exactly the same', no two words are exactly the same... but, I would then argue that quality of life and living wages have also improved over the past 100 to 200 years.
    FiveB247x wrote:
    he reality is that globalization merely continues the polarization of economic standing in the world. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The notion that all boats rise with a rising tide is a false premise.

    The talking point "rich get richer and poor get poorer" is violated right off the bat, over the past 100, 200 years, both the poor and the rich have gotten richer. Once again, standard of living and life expectancy have improved worldwide.
    FiveB247x wrote:
    There is not one example of a nation in the world that has gone through the economic development via programs of the IMF and WB that have had any long term stability and success. If you take on these loans and programs, you will not get out of them and your society pays the price.

    I'm not a fan of the IMF or the WB at all. So, I don't get what bringing them up has to do with anything. In fact, are you trying to say the World Bank and the IMF are capitalistic in nature? Because, if so, I would disagree, and almost argue they are the opposite. So, it confuses me as to why you brought them up to begin with. That said, I kinda agree with your points on both here. They aren't very good entities.
    FiveB247x wrote:
    It's also worth mentioning that the very same methods that these rich nations and organizations prescribe for developing and poor nations are not the same in which they have ever run their own economies or the manner which led them to stability/success.

    This is still on the WB and IMF stuff, so I'll pass here. I kind of agree with your underlying point.


    FiveB247x wrote:
    Anyways, in terms of Greece, we can all blame them and that's great, but if one small nation can corrupt the entire global economy, there is something a miss with that global economy and system. You are more focused on Greece (which deserves it's own blame) while not really addressing and acknowledging the fact this is a house of cards scenario. You can blame one card for not holding their end up, but if the whole system is predicated on such, it's very, very false and faulty logistical setup.

    Well, let's be real here. Greece should be blamed. So should Italy, so should Ireland, so should Portugal, so should Spain... so should the U.S. The underlying problem is this thought that government should provide goods and the spend, spend, spend rhetoric like it's free money. That concept needs to be broken. It's not free money. That money is our money. A dollar the government spends comes from someone/somewhere. If the government is spending money they don't have it leads to these problems.

    The real issue is, citizens wanted the stuff the government was giving, and were ok with the whole charade of not paying for it. We blame and blame politicians (and yes, they are all scum), but the truth is our citizenry is stupid. They either didn't know that the government was spending on a credit card over it's limit, or they didn't care. The citizenry just wanted their public goods, and thought it's fine someone will pay for it.... like little spoiled kids. They wanted their social security, their medicaid, medicare, their wars, they wanted their infrastructure, clean roads, public education, they wanted their entitlements. Taking even one or pieces of all of these away once their given is the equivalent of taking a teddy bear away from a crying toddler.... except we're adults. The simple next thought is, well let's just raise revenue to pay for our debt... there's a couple problems with this...the first is the one you've heard, that won't work because whether one wants to admit it or not, increasing taxes slows economic growth. Then we play class warfare.. but, it's the truth, it doesn't matter who you increase taxes on, if you hold all else constant, it's not going to be good for economic growth. But, even if what I said was wrong there, the most dead-on point is that at some point you're in so much debt that even if you tax the rich to death... you won't be able to pay off your debt. And finally, does taxes, upon taxes, really get to the issue of the addiction to spending? You can't keep spending and think we'll get six jobs down the line to pay for it. Eventually, you'll get cut off. That's what's happening.

    Our WORLD's problem right now is government. It's government spending. It's our dumb politicians (and the FED) who keep using Keynesian theory, it's our dumb citizens who keep voting people in who will do just that. I blame the government, because that's the way to change it. If everyone realizes it's Keynesian policies that caused this, and not rich bankers or capitalism or globalization.... they can change it.
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

    <object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt; <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
  • MotoDCMotoDC Posts: 947
    five wrote:
    while not really addressing and acknowledging the fact this is a house of cards scenario.
    You are absolutely right, but it's not the house of cards you're imagining. One of the reasons the house is so fragile is that it's built on the crystalline debt structure that inlet is describing. Globalization contributes to making it systemic rather than isolated to greece, but if all the other nations in the world were operating sanely (as defined by inlet, I'll grant you), then even in our "capitalistic"/globalized economy, the failure of Greece would not trigger widespread shockwaves. In fact, if all the other nations in the world were acting sanely, Greece's ability to act insanely would have been greatly restricted bc they would have had far fewer buyers of their debt.

    That said, I'm not yet convinced that Greece defaulting will actually trigger any such meltdown, though I must admit I'm not sure of the extent to which governments versus private banks own Greek debt. A bank may go under, many more will have to write off a bunch of debt and suffer a few bad quarters, but the world will keep turning.

    Inlet -- I'm not sure your football analogy is adequate. If the field were hilly and covered in fog (which isn't a stretch when we're analogizing global economics), you might well blame the environment as well as the QB.
  • satansbedsatansbed Posts: 2,139
    inlet13 wrote:
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Firstly, inlet, you continue to dance around the fact that the reason the EU exists, the reason there is such a thing as a domino effect inside the EU or into our own economy at such dramatic effect is because of globalization and capitalism to extreme forms. It's arguable whether they are directly the cause of such issues for one specific nation in this instance, but the reality is the main reason it effects all involved as a dramatic result is because of these items. You continue to separate it as if it is 2 separate cases - it is not. It's the butterfly effect in practice. Also in terms of the US debt, the reality is whether its the group you mention or even our own government, they are just talking points and not much has been address to actually fix our debt and system which are far out of whack - and that is not directly at one party, leader or similar. Our collective failures for decades have led us to this point. I am not attempting to turn this thread into a debate about party politics or similar. My comments are aimed at discussing not solely why Greece is in the trouble they are, but more importantly, why those results are so largely looming on the rest of the world.

    Put simply: Greece is in trouble because of entitlement spending, and just government spending in general. The EU is in trouble because of Greece (and Italy, and Spain, and Portugal, and Ireland) and out of control government spending, and their avocation of Keynesian style fiscal policy. The world economy is in trouble because the EU is a large economy, and these problems of out of control government spending aren't contained only in the EU (look at the US as an example).

    You want to make capitalism the evil here. While, it's pretty easy to see the real scapegoat is government-related, or just a form of government policy: Keynesian. The reason I object to your points is you're trying to mislead. You're saying that we're feeling this here because of globalization and capitalism, insinuating that globalization and capitalism are bad and the CAUSE. I'm countering saying, what's the opposite of capitalism? What's the alternative? Generally, an alternative is government-related.... and I'm saying, guess what... the trigger here is: Government. The trigger here is Keynesian policies. This was easily predicted because bubbles are built within that framework and they pop. The trouble is figuring out the bubble. This time it's the government itself.

    just a small aside but i think ireland is a different case to the sothern european nations, the irish problem was largely to a massive property bubble, and the government guarenteeing bank debt, yes we would have some debt problem if not for this but it would be far more managable, secondly, ireland is a much more open economy and ireland is ranked as the second most attractive country globally for foreign direct investment and has a path for jobs and growth open which the greeks, italians, portguese and the spanish don't have.

    keynesian policies aren't neccessarily irelands down fall,
Sign In or Register to comment.