Unions

EdsonNascimentoEdsonNascimento Posts: 5,522
edited November 2011 in A Moving Train
Why is it bad to allow workers to opt out of being part of a union and keep their jobs?

And, why are unions so afraid of allowing folks to exercise free will?
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Monster RainMonster Rain Posts: 1,415
    I can't answer the first part about whether it's good or bad to allow people to opt out without losing their jobs but I can tell you that the reason unions oppose that sort of thing is because they lose their bargaining leverage if members leave because the non-union workers cannot strike without losing their jobs. So that's obviously a bad thing from the union's standpoint.
  • inmytreeinmytree Posts: 4,741
    Why is it bad to allow workers to opt out of being part of a union and keep their jobs?

    And, why are unions so afraid of allowing folks to exercise free will?

    and why are companies afraid to allow workers to join or form a union...?
  • mookieb10mookieb10 Posts: 930
    Because you can end up like ford mc if u make a bad deal.
  • Allowing employees to opt out of a union simply allows employers to eliminate unionization.

    If employees are able to opt out of a union, shouldn't they be able to opt out of minimum wage and worker safety legislation as well? There will always be somebody desperate enough to work for nothing. Perhaps the best solution is to simply outsource all of the jobs to China, India or Mexico.
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 9,193
    Why is it bad to allow workers to opt out of being part of a union and keep their jobs?

    And, why are unions so afraid of allowing folks to exercise free will?

    I'm able to opt out of my union and keep my job. What union are you referring to?
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    non union workers in danger of losing their jobs for striking seems like a good reason to join the union. plus theres strength in numbers
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  • whygohomewhygohome Posts: 2,305
    non union workers in danger of losing their jobs for striking seems like a good reason to join the union. plus theres strength in numbers

    Or to be protected form dying in a coal mine...or on an oil rig...........
  • mookieb10mookieb10 Posts: 930
    whygohome wrote:
    non union workers in danger of losing their jobs for striking seems like a good reason to join the union. plus theres strength in numbers

    Or to be protected form dying in a coal mine...or on an oil rig...........

    I dont get it, non unionized workers are allowed to have wrongful death and/or workmen's comp claims filed on their behalf... Although i will agree that one strength of unions is creating safer working conditions.
  • ONCE DEVIDEDONCE DEVIDED Posts: 1,131
    people have the right in australia to either be in a union or not. but my big beef with non union workers in my workplace is this.
    last year I had to sit on picket line for 2 weeks to force the hand of our company to pay us at the same level as other companies making the same type of machinary in our region. not more than, just the same.
    we had a large contingent who were not in the union who did work through this time. Thats their right and i make no complaint.
    however when we finally come to an agreement those non unionised workers got the same pay increase, the same benifets that we all suffered for. How is that fair
    The way I see it is that
    _ Unionised workers join together using their strength in numbers to force the companies hand. during negotiations. we pay fees to have somebody represent us
    - non unionised are individuals they represent themselves.
    non unionised workers should not get these payrises as they didnt join in any negotiations.
    If they do want their payrises they should at least pay a fee to the unions at negotiation time. or negotiate for themselves
    AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE
  • Thoughts_ArriveThoughts_Arrive Melbourne, Australia Posts: 15,165
    Unions are scum.
    They thrive when the Labor party is in charge and cause havoc for all.
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • ONCE DEVIDEDONCE DEVIDED Posts: 1,131
    Unions are scum.
    They thrive when the Labor party is in charge and cause havoc for all.

    so your calling me scum. thanks mate

    could i sugest maybe changing your name to waiting for THOUGHTS TO ARRIVE frrom the liberal party

    Im a member of a union. and i want just pay for the work I do. I want the right to work safely.
    so you say unions cause havoc for all what do you base this on??

    at present in the media- Quantas is being held to ransom by unions and the LABOR government is instructing all to negotiate .

    reality is more that Qantas made a large profit last year but insists that it needs to shed thousands of employees. sending jobs overseas. ( isnt that one of your anti carbon tax complaints)

    http://www.news.com.au/business/qantas- ... 6121001509

    so the workers in their bid to negotiate with the company have only one barganing chip THEIR LABOR and have threatened on quite a few occasions to remove it. its their right.
    AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE
  • Thoughts_ArriveThoughts_Arrive Melbourne, Australia Posts: 15,165
    Unions are scum.
    They thrive when the Labor party is in charge and cause havoc for all.

    so your calling me scum. thanks mate

    could i sugest maybe changing your name to waiting for THOUGHTS TO ARRIVE frrom the liberal party

    Im a member of a union. and i want just pay for the work I do. I want the right to work safely.
    so you say unions cause havoc for all what do you base this on??

    at present in the media- Quantas is being held to ransom by unions and the LABOR government is instructing all to negotiate .

    reality is more that Qantas made a large profit last year but insists that it needs to shed thousands of employees. sending jobs overseas. ( isnt that one of your anti carbon tax complaints)

    http://www.news.com.au/business/qantas- ... 6121001509

    so the workers in their bid to negotiate with the company have only one barganing chip THEIR LABOR and have threatened on quite a few occasions to remove it. its their right.

    Bla bla bla....
    If provoked will strike, touch one touch all, no ticket no start bla bla bla.
    Not talking Qantas, in general okay.

    The union members on Vic's desal plant have links to outlaw bikie gangs.
    A lot of building unionists are thugs that intimidate others.

    I can't wait for the Liberal party to be in charge to put an end to your party.
    Now stop causing havoc for innocent travelers and get back to work.
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,495
    mookieb10 wrote:
    Although i will agree that one strength of unions is creating safer working conditions.

    I'm not sure this is the case anymore. It certainly was the case. I find Unions get in the way of safety just as much if not more than management now.
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  • ONCE DEVIDEDONCE DEVIDED Posts: 1,131
    mookieb10 wrote:
    Although i will agree that one strength of unions is creating safer working conditions.

    I'm not sure this is the case anymore. It certainly was the case. I find Unions get in the way of safety just as much if not more than management now.


    This may be said to be true in big companies, usually with an entrenched union in place.
    however a lot of small business's have very much less safety, probably as a resullt of unions being not used/allowed in those conditions
    AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE
  • mookieb10 wrote:
    Although i will agree that one strength of unions is creating safer working conditions.

    I'm not sure this is the case anymore. It certainly was the case. I find Unions get in the way of safety just as much if not more than management now.

    As I see it, the problem is that many established unions are businesses unto themselves. They collect dues and pay their corporate structure obscene amounts of money to 'negotiate' for their workers. While unions can certainly do good, like much of corporate America they can also be corrupted and ignore the basic rights of their constituency. Unfortunately, while unions are quick to accuse their employers of acting in bad faith, many unions will do the same thing standing up for woefully negligent employees who refuse to do an adequate job.

    Unions still have a place in the workplace, but they are far from perfect.
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    Go Beavers wrote:
    Why is it bad to allow workers to opt out of being part of a union and keep their jobs?

    And, why are unions so afraid of allowing folks to exercise free will?

    I'm able to opt out of my union and keep my job. What union are you referring to?

    i think most in MN operate that way. Right to work states are a big republican goal.

    It isn't union specific it is state specific.

    I cannot do the same at my job. I either pay 35 a month for no raises for 4 years and for crappy people to keep their jobs over good ones, or I pay 47 as a full member so I can vote on the crappy plans that save crappy people.
    It doesn't matter, either way it is more money for the union to give 87 million dollars to candidates I don't agree with...Something seems very wrong with allowing one group to spend that much money...I don't know much about campaign finance, but this seems wrong to me.
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  • davidtriosdavidtrios Posts: 9,732
    "We must close union offices, confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison. We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike" - Adolf Hitler, May 2, 1933.
  • Davidtrios wrote:
    "We must close union offices, confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison. We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike" - Adolf Hitler, May 2, 1933.

    Who said anything about closing unions? Who said we need to reduce salaries? I love the extremes folks will go to tyring to make a point only to make themselves look silly.

    Let the unions perform. And let folks decide if they want to participate or not. How easy and American is that?

    High perfomers would actually see their compensation go up.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • davidtriosdavidtrios Posts: 9,732
    Davidtrios wrote:
    "We must close union offices, confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison. We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike" - Adolf Hitler, May 2, 1933.

    Who said anything about closing unions? Who said we need to reduce salaries? I love the extremes folks will go to tyring to make a point only to make themselves look silly.

    Let the unions perform. And let folks decide if they want to participate or not. How easy and American is that?

    High perfomers would actually see their compensation go up.

    right wingers basically say this all of the time...they share an opinion with AH :?
  • Monster RainMonster Rain Posts: 1,415
    Oh, you gotta love the way the Nazi card gets played around here. Please find me one quote from anyone in the U.S. who advocates taking the unions' money and throwing their leaders in prison. It should be easy since right-wingers say it so often.
    Davidtrios wrote:
    Davidtrios wrote:
    "We must close union offices, confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison. We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike" - Adolf Hitler, May 2, 1933.

    Who said anything about closing unions? Who said we need to reduce salaries? I love the extremes folks will go to tyring to make a point only to make themselves look silly.

    Let the unions perform. And let folks decide if they want to participate or not. How easy and American is that?

    High perfomers would actually see their compensation go up.

    right wingers basically say this all of the time...they share an opinion with AH :?
  • davidtriosdavidtrios Posts: 9,732
    they basically share the same opinion

    read much??
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,156
    Davidtrios wrote:
    right wingers basically say this all of the time...they share an opinion with AH :?
    I believe Hitler loved dogs also.
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  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    Davidtrios wrote:
    they basically share the same opinion

    read much??


    "We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation..."

    who proclaimed this in 1925? who seems to be proclaiming this now?



    seriously, if you think the right wing in the United states resembles the Nazi party, I don't know what to tell you.
    I cannot help but be reminded of a quote from Animal House in response to this kind of thinking.

    The only people who are nazis in the united states are nazis.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • Monster RainMonster Rain Posts: 1,415
    I'm a very good reader, thank you for asking. Despite my ability to understand words on pages and computer screens, I'm just not very familiar with anyone in recent memory saying that unions should have their money taken away and their leaders thrown in prison and salaries cut. You see, that's the scary part of the quote. Even if you want to say that you were only referring to the part that says to close unions down, you still haven't shown an example of someone advocating that. You say that right-wingers "basically" say it all the time, so I guess it should be easy to find. Surely, a political candidate has run on that platform or there are hundreds of books on the subject. I don't read those types of books, so maybe you could enlighten me so I know who the crazies are. You invoked Hitler in order to make any opposing opinion seem worthless.

    And for the record, I'm not anti-union. I happen to think the good outweighs the bad in an overwhelming majority of the cases. I just hate when people resort to throwing around Hitler references to make their opinion seem better than someone else's and it's the sort of thing that made me avoid this forum for a few years since it seemed like we were assured of multiple references per day for a while.
    Davidtrios wrote:
    they basically share the same opinion

    read much??
  • Monster RainMonster Rain Posts: 1,415
    And actresses! My God, everyone in Hollywood is a Nazi! From now on I'm only watching reality shows.
    Jason P wrote:
    Davidtrios wrote:
    right wingers basically say this all of the time...they share an opinion with AH :?
    I believe Hitler loved dogs also.
  • ajedigeckoajedigecko \m/deplorable af \m/ Posts: 2,430
    Jason P wrote:
    Davidtrios wrote:
    right wingers basically say this all of the time...they share an opinion with AH :?
    I believe Hitler loved dogs also.
    and chocolate...and coffee......and music.
    live and let live...unless it violates the pearligious doctrine.
  • Thoughts_ArriveThoughts_Arrive Melbourne, Australia Posts: 15,165
    Thank you to the idiotic unionists for bringing Australia's national airline to its knees.
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    I can't speak of all unions...can only speak of the union I'm in (CUPE)...it's an absolute joke, if I had the choice I would not be a member.

    I am of the mindset that if we had the right to choose unions would be more effective. This is why I believe the government here in Canada, business and unions have no problems with people automatically be enrolled in unions.
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  • AusticmanAusticman Posts: 1,327
    Thank you to the idiotic unionists for bringing Australia's national airline to its knees.

    Don't let the truth get in the way of a good 'ol union bash.

    1) AIPA union have not and are not striking. Not a single pilot has striked and not a single pilot has caused any delays. The only action they have done is wearing red ties and passenger inflight announcements. They have been locked out for this behaviour.

    2) The dispute regarding pilots is long haul only. Domestic short haul are not involved and their agreement isn't up for renewal till next year. Yet, Joyce has locked them all out too. Grounding the most profitable part of Qantas, it's domestic operations.

    3) The dispute is NOT about pay, although all three unions are only asking for pay rises within CPI spread out over 3 years. The reason the 'negotiations' aren't going anywhere is because the unions don't want Qantas turned into a low cost Asia based airline, cut up and destroyed and an Australian icon ruined. The engineers and pilots are concerned about YOUR safety and the reputation and longevity of the Qantas brand which they are all very loyal too.

    4) Alan Joyce was on the Ansett board and destroyed it and he's doing the same to Qantas, don't believe the media spin he is putting on things. The company is not in 'dire' circumstances as he claims, they have actually posted one of their best profits in the last decade, doubling their profit yearly. Also, if they were really in 'dire' circumstances, any decent leader would not have accepted a 71% pay increase like Joyce did on Friday. Yes he took his $5 million dollar pay and then less than 24hrs turned around and grounded the airline.... that's taking your money and running in a whole new light isn't it?!

    5) The union strikes have caused a total of 6 hours of delays broken up into 1 hour blocks over months, Joyce's grounding is going on 24 hours.... The union strikes all were done with 72 hours notice and with least impact to passengers, less than 3% of flights were effected. Joyce's grounding has obviously affected 100% of flights. If you are pissed about your flight interruptions, Joyce is the man to be pissed at, not the unions!!!

    You don't find is at all suss that a guy involved with Ansett's demise is the Qantas CEO?!?!



    .
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  • ONCE DEVIDEDONCE DEVIDED Posts: 1,131
    mookieb10 wrote:
    Although i will agree that one strength of unions is creating safer working conditions.

    I'm not sure this is the case anymore. It certainly was the case. I find Unions get in the way of safety just as much if not more than management now.

    As I see it, the problem is that many established unions are businesses unto themselves. They collect dues and pay their corporate structure obscene amounts of money to 'negotiate' for their workers. While unions can certainly do good, like much of corporate America they can also be corrupted and ignore the basic rights of their constituency. Unfortunately, while unions are quick to accuse their employers of acting in bad faith, many unions will do the same thing standing up for woefully negligent employees who refuse to do an adequate job.

    Unions still have a place in the workplace, but they are far from perfect.

    thats probably the best post Ive read. yep unions are far from perfect. but at the workshop level we do have good representation. upper levelin unions are crap. I cannot stand how they send kids out of uni to come talk to us sometimes, never worked in industry at all, so how can the begin to understand our issues.
    we hoever vote on what we want in our negotiations. with their advice
    AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE
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