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Greek financial crisis

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  • dimitrispearljamdimitrispearljam NINUNINOPROPosts: 137,251
    IrishGuy wrote:
    Pap wrote:
    Our government are really selling our beautiful country out. Loss of democracy and poverty is an explosive mixture. People have the power.

    What do you think the Greek government should do then to get out of this crisis? Leave the Euro zone?
    no,just ask from that Merckel shit lady first to give us back what the Germans stole from us at world war 2 and Already the international courts decided..or we dont give them anything back..and then their fuckin banks will colapse...the ."yes Sir to all" is what we dont like this Goverment did...
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • PapPap Aspra Spitia, GreecePosts: 22,786
    edited October 2011
    inlet13 wrote:
    The problem is, pardon my bluntness, the Greek's sucking their government's teet.

    The Greek's need to realize this is a painful wake-up call and that they have been living a lie for decades. They will spend and spend and spend, with no concerns for tomorrow (or the long run). The sad part is, the long run does occur eventually. We're living in it right now.

    The Greek people are going to bring the government down very soon. Rest assured. The real problem is that the Greek workers are amongst the hard workers of the European Union and nevertheless after they get retired of their job, they don't have the same privileges with let's say the German workers. Because of the mass media, the rest of the globe believes that all the Greek workers are paid with a good salary. That's not true. Yes indeed, lots of Greek families used to spend without thinking during the past years (the so-called "good" years from an economic perspective). But, as you said this is a big lie. All of them will have to adjust to the new economic conditions. But how? Unemployment and no development are the two main characteristics of my country right now.
    Post edited by Pap on
    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.

    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • PapPap Aspra Spitia, GreecePosts: 22,786
    IrishGuy wrote:
    Pap wrote:
    Our government are really selling our beautiful country out. Loss of democracy and poverty is an explosive mixture. People have the power.

    What do you think the Greek government should do then to get out of this crisis? Leave the Euro zone?
    No. I don't think that this would be a good political act. Instead, we must back on the development. Development = more jobs, salaries, health, education, tourism, vacations etc. What do you think? None of our big-headed politicians can see that or the big powers don't want us to be a developed country? They simply want to take back as much money as they can and then drop us out of the Union. They just don't care about our future.
    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.

    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    Pap wrote:
    inlet13 wrote:
    The problem is, pardon my bluntness, the Greek's sucking their government's teet.

    The Greek's need to realize this is a painful wake-up call and that they have been living a lie for decades. They will spend and spend and spend, with no concerns for tomorrow (or the long run). The sad part is, the long run does occur eventually. We're living in it right now.

    The Greek people are going to bring the government down very soon. Rest assured. The real problem is that the Greek workers are amongst the hard workers of the European Union and nevertheless after they get retired of their job, they don't have the some privileges with let's say the German workers. Because of the mass media, the rest of the globe believes that all the Greek workers are paid with a good salary. That's not true. Yes indeed, lots of Greek families used to spend without thinking during the past years (the so-called "good" years from an economic perspective). But, as you said this is a big lie. All of them will have to adjust to the new economic conditions. But how? Unemployment and no development are the two main characteristics of my country right now.


    No offense, but for some reason, you decided to pick and choose where you quoted me. Why?

    It's funny because I feel like you decided not to quote the most important parts. Basically, that the Greek government is doing what the Greek population wanted it to do... provide entitlements for decades (mounting the public debt). The Greek people, or at least the majority, think they're entitled to a "good salary" and "retired privileges". I say... you're entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That's what a good government can provide, and that's all. Once a mass of people, in this case the Greek population, becomes so addicted to government handouts, entitlements and "fair" wages.... this is what happens.

    To answer your question, how to adjust. Step 1: Stop rioting and dissolve all thought of tying yourselves with unions. They are part of the problem. Step 2: Realize you're going to have to work for your retirement. No one will give it to you. Step 3: If you're unemployed, realize that the job you want, with the nice salary, isn't possible right now. Take a smaller paying job. If everyone in Greece did this to the best of their ability, they would alter the unemployment rate and begin to at least spur economic growth somewhat.

    But, it won't happen. Just like the all welfare states, the public is too addicted to government handouts. Greece will be Lehman (in this public debt bubble), the people there want it to be. The sad part is they have no clue what will be in store for them on the other side. You think this is bad now? Just wait.
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

    <object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt; <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
  • PapPap Aspra Spitia, GreecePosts: 22,786
    inlet13 wrote:
    The Greek people, or at least the majority, think they're entitled to a "good salary" and "retired privileges".

    To answer your question, how to adjust. Step 1: Stop rioting and dissolve all thought of tying yourselves with unions. They are part of the problem. Step 2: Realize you're going to have to work for your retirement. No one will give it to you. Step 3: If you're unemployed, realize that the job you want, with the nice salary, isn't possible right now. Take a smaller paying job.

    Stop rioting and then what? Accept all these unfair and hard measures which are applied to our country by the banks, your country and the European Union? What would you do if you were in the same situation? Do you want us to say to them "Thank you" too? Please stop speaking from sure. I hope you realize that something like this, is never going to happen in your country. What makes you think that the Greek workers don't deserve good salaries and good pensions? Maybe, that's something that you heard from your country's mass media? Have you ever been in Greece? By this "smaller paying job" :) , I would say probably not even once. One last question: Will you ever work for 14 euros (19.34 dollars) per day, around 10-11 hours a day without insurance? Or worse, will you let your child work for a "very good salary" like this, when he's 22 and already has a BSc and an MSc? Please read my very first post again. Especially since 2009, there are no jobs at all. Even a job like the aforementioned one, is already taken. Now, can you please tell me how do you expect an economic growth if all Greeks start working for 14 euros without insurance ("good salary" - "good pension" --- How could I ever take one without insurance?! :crazy: )? I believe you are influenced by the European Union's announcements. Please don't believe anything you hear on the TV.
    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.

    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    Pap wrote:
    inlet13 wrote:
    The Greek people, or at least the majority, think they're entitled to a "good salary" and "retired privileges".

    To answer your question, how to adjust. Step 1: Stop rioting and dissolve all thought of tying yourselves with unions. They are part of the problem. Step 2: Realize you're going to have to work for your retirement. No one will give it to you. Step 3: If you're unemployed, realize that the job you want, with the nice salary, isn't possible right now. Take a smaller paying job.

    Stop rioting and then what? Accept all these unfair and hard measures which are applied to our country by the banks, your country and the European Union? What would you do if you were in the same situation? Do you want us to say to them "Thank you" too? Please stop speaking from sure. I hope you realize that something like this, is never going to happen in your country. What makes you think that the Greek workers don't deserve good salaries and good pensions? Maybe, that's something that you heard from your country's mass media? Have you ever been in Greece? By this "smaller paying job" :) , I would say probably not even once. One last question: Will you ever work for 14 euros (19.34 dollars) per day, around 10-11 hours a day without insurance? Or worse, will you let your child work for a "very good salary" like this, when he's 22 and already has a BSc and an MSc? Please read my very first post again. Especially since 2009, there are no jobs at all. Even a job like the aforementioned one, is already taken. Now, can you please tell me how do you expect an economic growth if all Greeks start working for 14 euros without insurance ("good salary" - "good pension" --- How could I ever take one without insurance?! :crazy: )? I believe you are influenced by the European Union's announcements. Please don't believe anything you hear on the TV.


    I'm not influenced by anything other economic theory.

    First, if you think rioting is productive, let me break the news... it's not. Why? Well, let's start with the fact that a large percentage of the Greek economy is based on tourism. Would you want to travel to a land where you are seeing riots on TV? Probably not. In that sense, the riots are HURTING your economy. But, further, your government is DEAD BROKE. They have NO MONEY. NONE. So, are riots helping by keeping your police (who are paid by the government) busy and perhaps even being forced to pay them overtime? No. The riots are 100% counterproductive.

    Second, your definition of fair and the person next door's are most likely different. I'd be willing to bet every single person on this Pearl Jam board has some variant of a definition of "fair". Because of that every single person has a different definition of "fair". When it comes to wages, wages aren't meant to be "fair". They are meant to pay a person for the service or good being provided. If you do better at your job, you probably "have the ability" to get paid more (at that job or at another job). Government doesn't do anything about that, you do. If you know more about how to your job better then someone else, you have the ability to get paid more. If you don't like your current wage, go somewhere else, no one forces you to stay. The problem with what I'm reading from you is this sense of "entitlement". I'm not saying I don't feel bad for you and your people... I do. I sincerely feel for you. But, I am also frustrated because your problems are similar to the ones here in the U.S. I am frustrated because I feel so many people are crying about their problems and asking government for more help... when it's that... "asking the government" that got you here to begin with. We can't go for decades building up government programs, having government interfere in markets (making wages more "fair") without something like this eventually occurring. This is what happens when the government becomes the end all be all of society. I say to any who don't agree with me, take an economics class. This is simple economic theory being played out.

    If I had to work for 19.34 a day to feed my family, yes I would work for that. I would also understand that rioting will do nothing to help the underlying problem. On top of that, I would absolutely have my child work for that salary if that's the best job he could get. I don't want my children to grow up spoiled rotten. I worked as a dishwasher when I was younger, I've worked jobs that suck and I am a better person for it. Education is not all about getting good jobs, it's a tool so that you can do the best in certain positions.

    And if there are really no jobs, my advice is to move. As far as insurance goes, I think you're crazy for freaking out that much about insurance. Why can't you take a job without insurance? If it comes down to it, and you can't find a job... but, there's one available without insurance... to me, I'd take the one without insurance. I'd say anyone who didn't is crazy.

    I don't believe what I hear on TV..... What I believe is this statistic... please read carefully:

    Your government debt is well, well over 100% of your country's GDP, even after bailouts. That's just a horrible. To see your countrymen rioting on the street for more government assistance is to put it bluntly.... idiotic.
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

    <object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt; <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
  • dimitrispearljamdimitrispearljam NINUNINOPROPosts: 137,251
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    that was beautiful D, I really enjoyed...thank you!

    You are strong! :D
  • PapPap Aspra Spitia, GreecePosts: 22,786
    inlet13 wrote:
    If you do better at your job, you probably "have the ability" to get paid more (at that job or at another job).1) Government doesn't do anything about that, you do. If you know more about how to your job better then someone else, you have the ability to get paid more. If you don't like your current wage, go somewhere else, no one forces you to stay.

    2)If I had to work for 19.34 a day to feed my family, yes I would work for that. On top of that, I would absolutely have my child work for that salary if that's the best job he could get. I don't want my children to grow up spoiled rotten. I worked as a dishwasher when I was younger, I've worked jobs that suck and I am a better person for it. Education is not all about getting good jobs, it's a tool so that you can do the best in certain positions.

    3)And if there are really no jobs, my advice is to move. As far as insurance goes, I think you're crazy for freaking out that much about insurance. Why can't you take a job without insurance? If it comes down to it, and you can't find a job... but, there's one available without insurance... to me, I'd take the one without insurance. I'd say anyone who didn't is crazy.

    I believe is this statistic... please read carefully:

    Your government debt is well, well over 100% of your country's GDP, even after bailouts. That's just a horrible. To see your countrymen rioting on the street for more government assistance is to put it bluntly.... idiotic.

    You believe in some fake statistics that you saw on the TV. Economic theory... Pffft. Please watch the video that Dimitris posted above very carefully. AND PLEASE STOP TALKING FROM SURE!!!

    1) How? Maybe through the unions?
    2) What are you talking about now?! How old are you and do you have a family? Instead of suggesting a realistic solution (for my country), you describe an idealistic situation that deep inside you know that is never going to happen. For example, you have been working hard for 35 consecutive years and one day you get retired from your job. You absolutely deserve a good pension in order to be able to support yourself (medicines, living costs etc.). At this point, I would like to note that while you were still working and simultaneously with the raising of your family, you made the false movement to let one of your child to make undergraduate and postgraduate studies for a better future (in order not to just become a better person but also to be able to make a family of his own and a have a job that will allow him and his family to live modestly). Do you have any idea how much this kind of studies cost? Tons of money. And you tell me that you will let your child to work for 14 euros per day for 10 hours a day without insurance or even worse that you will be able to raise up your family working for a job like that. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: You have to understand - I know that is hard for you because you live in the country which is not accidentally called the biggest power of the world - that is not about spoiling a young man but that there are no jobs at all, that you cannot survive with 14 euros per day in Greece right now - you cannot even do a second job because you work 10-11 hours a day for that "fair and very good salary" and you're not a robot but a human being- and that is illegal (globally) to work without insurance and because one day you want to rest. Please tell me that this is fair.
    3) You think it's easy? And what about the guys that have a family or are in a job for more than 20 years (consequently they are 40+ years old nowadays)? We all have the right to choose to stay in our country and live modestly. What about you? Would you like to leave America? And if the (same?) problem exists in America and you are frustrated about it, why you haven't already left your country?
    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.

    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • PapPap Aspra Spitia, GreecePosts: 22,786
    +1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
    :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
    THAT'S GREECE!
    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.

    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • @inlet13:

    You really have no idea what's going on on some EU countries, namely Greece and Portugal, do you? The problem is: taxes are raising and wages are being cut and this is happening in families that barely made it to end of the month with enough money to eat, despite working a crazy number of hours... You know what the consequences are? People will start to see their children hungry and will have no money to feed them. AND THEY WORK HARD! Now tell me that you, having been a hard worker all your life, having payed your taxes and fulfilled all your obligations to your country, seeing your government making your children go hungry, would just stay put, work harder and be happy about it, feeling you are not entitled to anything else! Oh please...
    ~Can't escape from the common rule
    If you hate something, don't you do it too...~
  • Thoughts_ArriveThoughts_Arrive Melbourne, AustraliaPosts: 15,165
    Pap wrote:
    Why now you don't rioting!
    Watch the news please.

    lol....
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • PapPap Aspra Spitia, GreecePosts: 22,786
    Pap wrote:
    Why now you don't rioting!
    Watch the news please.

    lol....
    :? :lolno: This isn't funny. This isn't funny at all.
    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.

    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • Thoughts_ArriveThoughts_Arrive Melbourne, AustraliaPosts: 15,165
    I don't know what you are on about but please chill out.
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • PapPap Aspra Spitia, GreecePosts: 22,786
    I don't know what you are on about but please chill out.
    And you just please make fun of a dead serious situation and try to understand - if you really want. In case you want to laugh, you have to understand that that's not the right thread.
    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.

    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • Thoughts_ArriveThoughts_Arrive Melbourne, AustraliaPosts: 15,165
    Pap wrote:
    I don't know what you are on about but please chill out.
    And you just please make fun of a dead serious situation and try to understand - if you really want. In case you want to laugh, you have to understand that that's not the right thread.

    Yes sir, anything you say sir.
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • PapPap Aspra Spitia, GreecePosts: 22,786
    Pap wrote:
    I don't know what you are on about but please chill out.
    And you just please make fun of a dead serious situation and try to understand - if you really want. In case you want to laugh, you have to understand that that's not the right thread.

    Yes sir, anything you say sir.
    That's a good boy. Bravo.
    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.

    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    @inlet13:

    You really have no idea what's going on on some EU countries, namely Greece and Portugal, do you? The problem is: taxes are raising and wages are being cut and this is happening in families that barely made it to end of the month with enough money to eat, despite working a crazy number of hours... You know what the consequences are? People will start to see their children hungry and will have no money to feed them. AND THEY WORK HARD! Now tell me that you, having been a hard worker all your life, having payed your taxes and fulfilled all your obligations to your country, seeing your government making your children go hungry, would just stay put, work harder and be happy about it, feeling you are not entitled to anything else! Oh please...


    I'm an economist. Although you live in Portugal, and I don't, I "may" know better regarding the cause of these problems than even you do. So, please, don't patronize me telling me I have no clue.

    I think what's going on in Europe is sad. There's a large percentage of these populations that have been raised believing that government "provides" for them. Like that's it's job. That's factually false. Your countries are broke. They can't "provide" for you.

    What I think is so sad is that there are large sects of people who don't understand that, nor will they... because they've been brought up and swindled by the evils of large government.

    Put bluntly: Many politicians would sell an electorate cyanide if it would get them re-elected. Are you really that gullible that you believe government when they set up "safety nets" or "welfare programs" (and some cases government 'pension programs') and promise they'll last forever? They are Ponzi schemes when government can grab out of one to pay off the other. What's happening in Europe was easily predicted. And guess what, it's evident from this very thread... it's going to get much, much worse because the people don't believe that their demand for larger and larger government was the problem. In other words, they think they should never have to cut back. Good luck with that ,
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

    <object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt; <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    Pap wrote:
    You believe in some fake statistics that you saw on the TV. Economic theory... Pffft. Please watch the video that Dimitris posted above very carefully. AND PLEASE STOP TALKING FROM SURE!!!



    1) How? Maybe through the unions?
    2) What are you talking about now?! How old are you and do you have a family? Instead of suggesting a realistic solution (for my country), you describe an idealistic situation that deep inside you know that is never going to happen. For example, you have been working hard for 35 consecutive years and one day you get retired from your job. You absolutely deserve a good pension in order to be able to support yourself (medicines, living costs etc.). At this point, I would like to note that while you were still working and simultaneously with the raising of your family, you made the false movement to let one of your child to make undergraduate and postgraduate studies for a better future (in order not to just become a better person but also to be able to make a family of his own and a have a job that will allow him and his family to live modestly). Do you have any idea how much this kind of studies cost? Tons of money. And you tell me that you will let your child to work for 14 euros per day for 10 hours a day without insurance or even worse that you will be able to raise up your family working for a job like that. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: You have to understand - I know that is hard for you because you live in the country which is not accidentally called the biggest power of the world - that is not about spoiling a young man but that there are no jobs at all, that you cannot survive with 14 euros per day in Greece right now - you cannot even do a second job because you work 10-11 hours a day for that "fair and very good salary" and you're not a robot but a human being- and that is illegal (globally) to work without insurance and because one day you want to rest. Please tell me that this is fair.
    3) You think it's easy? And what about the guys that have a family or are in a job for more than 20 years (consequently they are 40+ years old nowadays)? We all have the right to choose to stay in our country and live modestly. What about you? Would you like to leave America? And if the (same?) problem exists in America and you are frustrated about it, why you haven't already left your country?


    ha ha ha.... seriously? Your countries debt to GDP ratio is made up by the TV?

    I do have a family. If I were you, and it's really as bad as you say, I would move out of the country and look for a job elsewhere. I'd learn the lesson that you can NEVER TRUST GOVERNMENT TO PROVIDE FOR YOU (HEALTH, RETIREMENT or ANYTHING).

    But, I don't believe it's quite as bad as you say because I think you've even admitted you could get a job, but it would just be without insurance. To me, I would take that job because it would provide my family with money. But, sounds like you won't.

    Anyway, good luck. Sounds like you'll need it. Breaking windows and rioting will solve all your ills, I'm sure. (sarcasm)
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

    <object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt; <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    inlet13 wrote:
    ha ha ha.... seriously? Your countries debt to GDP ratio is made up by the TV?

    I do have a family. If I were you, and it's really as bad as you say, I would move out of the country and look for a job elsewhere. I'd learn the lesson that you can NEVER TRUST GOVERNMENT TO PROVIDE FOR YOU (HEALTH, RETIREMENT or ANYTHING).

    But, I don't believe it's quite as bad as you say because I think you've even admitted you could get a job, but it would just be without insurance. To me, I would take that job because it would provide my family with money. But, sounds like you won't.

    Anyway, good luck. Sounds like you'll need it. Breaking windows and rioting will solve all your ills, I'm sure. (sarcasm)
    These words are not directed at me...
    I am not experiencing what my friends in Greece are,
    I don't know what brought them to the place they are,
    but my focus is on how they feel.

    inlet13 ...I admire you so much...
    I enjoy your posts and am amazed how right on they are each time I read.
    I understand what you are saying and feel it is something
    everyone here in the US should tuck away for future reference.
    We are probably not far behind what some other countries are experiencing.

    I have to add though the helplessness, fear, frustration, anger, betrayal and loss of faith,
    all these emotions, are perhaps not being given the weight they deserve,
    how they themselves can and hopefully will find a solution.

    To leave one's home is not easy, even a cross country move, this I know.
    I can imagine how hard it would be to leave one's country...
    next to impossible for many.
    This most especially under these current conditions and would probably be regretted.

    Pride in one's country and the fact that extended family would be left behind
    doesn't to me make leaving a realistic option. Most especially when a country is in trouble.
    The people want to repair, not run.

    When someone feels they have been screwed walking away is just not the reaction to the action.
    Fighting back is, in whatever way they feel is necessary.

    The world is watching and the road Greece takes may affect us all...
    choose wisely for the people.
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    pandora wrote:
    These words are not directed at me...
    I am not experiencing what my friends in Greece are,
    I don't know what brought them to the place they are,
    but my focus is on how they feel.

    inlet13 ...I admire you so much...
    I enjoy your posts and am amazed how right on they are each time I read.
    I understand what you are saying and feel it is something
    everyone here in the US should tuck away for future reference.
    We are probably not far behind what some other countries are experiencing.

    Thank you for your kind words.
    pandora wrote:
    I have to add though the helplessness, fear, frustration, anger, betrayal and loss of faith,
    all these emotions, are perhaps not being given the weight they deserve,
    how they themselves can and hopefully will find a solution.

    To leave one's home is not easy, even a cross country move, this I know.
    I can imagine how hard it would be to leave one's country...
    next to impossible for many.
    This most especially under these current conditions and would probably be regretted.

    Pride in one's country and the fact that extended family would be left behind
    doesn't to me make leaving a realistic option. Most especially when a country is in trouble.
    The people want to repair, not run.

    When someone feels they have been screwed walking away is just not the reaction to the action.
    Fighting back is, in whatever way they feel is necessary.

    The world is watching and the road Greece takes may affect us all...
    choose wisely for the people.


    I understand and agree with you. I feel sorry for the people of Europe. I feel sorry for the hardworking Greeks. I feel sorry for Americans too, to be honest though... because I agree with you, this will slowly make it's way to our shores like a small rising wave. So, I feel sorry for everyone. It's just an awful situation.

    However, I also get frustrated. I get frustrated because it's like watching a friend slowly kill him or herself. They keep reaching for drug (of government programs) and it keeps slowly killing them. Sure, they get their quick fix ... and sometimes, maybe that fix lasts longer (like decades, in this case). But, the drug does wear off... government can't spend and spend forever.... and yet, the people want more. When they can't get it, they get violent... which to me, is soooooo wrong. It does no good at all.

    I also think people deserve to be mad, but breaking things, stealing and hurting people is not the answer. They should blame their government. I should say, some do blame the government, but in the wrong way. They don't say... we were duped, "WE" need to change our way of thinking, and do so in our elections. No... Instead, they point fingers and demand more of their drug. It's a lost cause.... look at this very thread... it's incredibly sad.

    What I saw in this thread was a group of people who are demanding more and more government solutions to their problems. Government is what got them there. Yet, they won't listen to me.

    Finally, I agree and think you are absolutely right about leaving a country. It would be incredibly difficult. Seriously, incredibly difficult. I would have such a hard time with it. However, I know people have done it. I wouldn't be alive if my grandparents didn't do it. I wouldn't live where I live. America is pretty much a land of people who did just that. Left a dying country for searching for a better life for themselves and their family. Maybe America isn't the destination anymore, but I'd say it's certainly remains a lesson to us all that one day we may have to do the same. If I have to do that, I will. I think we all would if we really had to.
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

    <object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt; <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
  • Oh nice... "Don't patronize me, I'm an economist." Really? You think that makes you understand everything that's going on? Is economy that static as a science? And either way, that was NOT my intention whatsoever...

    Of course cuts are needed, of course we have no money, doesn't take an economist to understand that part! Most of us who work for a living and pay our taxes, are already aware and resigned to the fact we'll have to pay for a debt we didn't cause, we would just like to see the ones that did make sacrifices like we do and maybe then we wouldn't have to sacrifice as much! Why are the "European saviors of our asses" so demanding on cuts that affect us, middle class workers, and not as demanding when it comes to politicians and other "big boys"?

    It's funny when you make it sound like we are just looking for not doing anything worthy and get all kinds of benefits from the government... You might have a very solid base and be very knowledgeble in this subject, but it looks like you're looking at theories and forgetting the practice, looking at models and forgetting actual people... We are not all alike, we do NOT all fit in the "economic model" you're measuring us by and right now, I think the part of us you're ignoring is not such a small minority... But I'm an engineer, not an economist, what do I know...
    ~Can't escape from the common rule
    If you hate something, don't you do it too...~
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    Oh nice... "Don't patronize me, I'm an economist." Really? You think that makes you understand everything that's going on? Is economy that static as a science? And either way, that was NOT my intention whatsoever...

    Nope. I don't claim to understand "everything that's going on". Economics is not a static science. Fair enough.
    Of course cuts are needed, of course we have no money, doesn't take an economist to understand that part! Most of us who work for a living and pay our taxes, are already aware and resigned to the fact we'll have to pay for a debt we didn't cause, we would just like to see the ones that did make sacrifices like we do and maybe then we wouldn't have to sacrifice as much! Why are the "European saviors of our asses" so demanding on cuts that affect us, middle class workers, and not as demanding when it comes to politicians and other "big boys"?

    Well, what bothers me, is that it appears many don't understand that cuts are needed. There are people who claim, "don't cut the government money that comes to me... cut the money that doesn't". They use class warfare to do such. Personally, I believe YOUR GOVERNMENT needs to make cuts... because they have NO MONEY. Cuts should be across the board. I'm sorry, but if this occurs middle class workers will be hit as will "big boys". The class warfare rhetoric is part of the problem because it treats government as a paternal or maternal entity. It's not. Government does not care about you. Government will grow without control if you let it. And the problem is, people think it's constrained.... the only thing that constrains it is the voter (which includes all classes of people).
    It's funny when you make it sound like we are just looking for not doing anything worthy and get all kinds of benefits from the government... You might have a very solid base and be very knowledgeble in this subject, but it looks like you're looking at theories and forgetting the practice, looking at models and forgetting actual people... We are not all alike, we do NOT all fit in the "economic model" you're measuring us by and right now, I think the part of us you're ignoring is not such a small minority... But I'm an engineer, not an economist, what do I know...

    I am not trying to say people aren't good hard-working people who are getting caught up in this. But, I do think there's a lot of ignorant people out there that don't understand that they voted for this, over and over and over again. The majority in these countries wanted these "ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS". Analysts were saying Europe would go broke because their countries younger populations were shrinking (and their entitlements relied on that tax base). Yet, your countries continued to mount their entitlements. Then we had a recession that was horrible, and was unforeseen, so the problem crept up quicker than anyone would have thought. But, people knew it was coming.

    I do feel bad for your people. I know there's a diverse set of people there. And I know they are inherently good people. I would not ever say these people are bad. I just think many in Europe think
    or lean to the socialist side, and this (what's playing out now) is the issue or problem with that. Government, in my opinion, is the entity that can be "bad".
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

    <object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt; <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
  • inlet13 wrote:
    But, I do think there's a lot of ignorant people out there that don't understand that they voted for this, over and over and over again.
    inlet13 wrote:
    Government, in my opinion, is the entity that can be "bad".

    Agreed... But at the same time... I wish we had a VALID alternative... We don't seem to have one...
    ~Can't escape from the common rule
    If you hate something, don't you do it too...~
  • PapPap Aspra Spitia, GreecePosts: 22,786
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7OvModwZRWI --- Riot Granny

    You know you're on the wrong side when grandma starts throwing rocks at you. --- One of the top comments below the video.

    Have my indignation but I'm pure in all my thoughts / I'm alive --- Eddie Vedder (Guaranteed)

    According to our economist here, this is a sad situation. Indeed. And the solution, he/she suggests to us: Granny go find a job even after your retirement or better leave your country. It's so simple and easy. Some rhetoric questions here: 1) Does the granny know how to speak in English or any other foreign language besides her mother tongue? 2) Who "good boss" will want the granny as his/her employee? Is the granny able to buy her medicines or even support her "hypothetical" children financially? Can she buy a present for her "hypothetical" grandchildren? The answer to all of the above questions is: YES. (sarcasm) But, this evil woman instead of sitting on her wheelchair with her arms crossed watching TV series without disturbing their good measures and their good systems and above all their peace... Behold! She is out of her mind - because she doesn't know if she will be alive the next morning - and starts throwing rocks. Sad, sad, sad... Granny please stop waiting for entitlements from your elected government and compromise. Please don't disturb us with your reacting granny. Actually I think is time for you to die. Don't you think? (sarcasm) In this way, the younger (and thus productive) generations of our country can work harder and harder (while they will be paid less) in order some other people in this planet to be able to live not only a modest life but a luxurious life. That's evolution baby! Wait a minute... This reminds me of something, but I'm not very certain yet... Maybe Africa, Asia... I'm not sure yet. I believe I will be able to figure it out someday. But how if I work like a slave for a salary with which I cannot even buy food for myself (see guys, I have already come to terms with the fact that even I'm fairly young and -I would like to believe that- I have achieved something through my undergraduate and postgraduate studies that many young men in my age haven't, I don't even dare to discuss for a good salary because I have a Master, can speak two foreign languages, have attended some "useless" stuff such as scientific seminars and blah blah blah)? That's culture baby. The culture of poverty.
    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.

    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    Pap wrote:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7OvModwZRWI --- Riot Granny

    You know you're on the wrong side when grandma starts throwing rocks at you. --- One of the top comments below the video.

    Have my indignation but I'm pure in all my thoughts / I'm alive --- Eddie Vedder (Guaranteed)

    Granny's can be clueless too.
    Pap wrote:
    According to our economist here, this is a sad situation. Indeed. And the solution, he/she suggests to us: Granny go find a job even after your retirement or better leave your country. It's so simple and easy. .

    My solution was not to leave your country. My solution was first to stop rioting. I already explained that Greece relies on tourism and your rioting is hurting that industry. Do you disagree with that? Second, I would say to look for a job if you don't have one and take one, even if it's slightly below what you deem worthy of your labor. Third, I'd say never vote again for the socialists who did this to you. Fourth, if you still haven't found a job, move to find one.

    As for Granny, she seems to have a pretty nice pant suit on.
    Pap wrote:
    Some rhetoric questions here: 1) Does the granny know how to speak in English or any other foreign language besides her mother tongue?.

    I don't know, neither do you. And I don't think that matters. I know plenty of people in America who don't speak English, yet have jobs and support their children.
    Pap wrote:
    2) Who "good boss" will want the granny as his/her employee? .

    I don't know why you are referring to me as "good boss"... but, I don't know who would want anyone who throws rocks at another human being as a employee. I would normally suggest a granny could make a good nanny... but, I certainly wouldn't hire one who casts stones.
    Pap wrote:
    Is the granny able to buy her medicines or even support her "hypothetical" children financially? .

    You don't know she has children or know she can't buy her medicine. Since, we're going hypothetical.... maybe she's well off financially. What then?
    Pap wrote:
    Can she buy a present for her "hypothetical" grandchildren? .

    All I know, and you know, is what she looks like. She looks like she has a nice pant suit on. So, since we're going hypothetical... I'd say yes. She can. But, if she's throwing rocks at people, maybe she's thrown one at her grandchildren in the past and now her children won't let her around her grandchildren.
    Pap wrote:
    The answer to all of the above questions is: YES. (sarcasm) .

    No, it's not.
    Pap wrote:
    But, this evil woman instead of sitting on her wheelchair with her arms crossed watching TV series without disturbing their good measures and their good systems and above all their peace... Behold! .

    She doesn't have a wheelchair... she's walking around fine. And she's also throwing stones fine.
    Pap wrote:
    She is out of her mind - because she doesn't know if she will be alive the next morning - and starts throwing rocks. .

    I'm willing to bet she'll be alive tomorrow if there were no rioting. That said, engaging in riots probably increases her chances of dying.
    Pap wrote:
    Sad, sad, sad... Granny please stop waiting for entitlements from your elected government and compromise. .

    Yes, Granny, stop being naive. The government is an evil entity. Dear Granny, your people voted again and again for increases in entitlements, without ever paying for them. It was like spending on a credit card for years upon years without paying for it. Now, you're protesting in the street because you're upset your credit card was taken away? You're broke, Granny. And your people, the Greeks, are addicted to debt. Rioting will only make things worse... here's how.... Your country's issue is Debt/GDP. In order to make things better, your country should want to lower Debt and raise GDP to get out of your bind. Maybe, just maybe, then you could keep some of your entitlements. But, your rioting will INCREASE Debt.... and your rioting is causing a DECREASE in GDP. Your rioting is making the DEBT to GDP ratio WORSE!
    Pap wrote:
    Please don't disturb us with your reacting granny. Actually I think is time for you to die. Don't you think? (sarcasm) .

    Who the hell is saying they want anyone to die? I want her to live long and prosper. But, I am not naive enough to think that rioting in the street will help her at all in doing that.
    Pap wrote:
    In this way, the younger (and thus productive) generations of our country can work harder and harder (while they will be paid less) in order some other people in this planet to be able to live not only a modest life but a luxurious life. That's evolution baby! .

    I'd recommend you to take an economics class. Trade and labor are not zero-sum games. Everyone benefits when someone takes a job or engages in trade. AND no one forces someone to do either.
    This the rich benefit stuff... is class warfare, and only the naive believe this. For instance, nine out of ten economists say a minimum wage is BAD.... why? well, because it causes unemployment for the POOR. In other words, taking a somewhat lower paying job is not necessarily bad. Sure, everyone would love to be millionaires in la la land. But, we don't live in a Utopian dream world. This is reality.
    Pap wrote:
    Wait a minute... This reminds me of something, but I'm not very certain yet... Maybe Africa, Asia... I'm not sure yet. I believe I will be able to figure it out someday. But how if I work like a slave for a salary with which I cannot even buy food for myself (see guys, I have already come to terms with the fact that even I'm fairly young and -I would like to believe that- I have achieved something through my undergraduate and postgraduate studies that many young men in my age haven't, I don't even dare to discuss for a good salary because I have a Master, can speak two foreign languages, have attended some "useless" stuff such as scientific seminars and blah blah blah)? That's culture baby. The culture of poverty.

    That was silly. Seriously, man.
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

    <object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt; <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
  • PapPap Aspra Spitia, GreecePosts: 22,786
    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.

    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • PapPap Aspra Spitia, GreecePosts: 22,786
    Boston beggar makes fun of GAP:

    image001-710511.jpg
    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.

    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • PapPap Aspra Spitia, GreecePosts: 22,786
    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.

    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • dimitrispearljamdimitrispearljam NINUNINOPROPosts: 137,251
    Pap wrote:
    Boston beggar makes fun of GAP:

    image001-710511.jpg
    :lol:
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
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