Jumping ship.

whygohome

Go Beavers wrote:

whygohome wrote:

Understandable. I never really considered myself a regular poster, but I have had spurts.
A little while ago, I told my friend that I am in the detachment process: detachment from American society (yes, it has to be American society, because I live in the States and I am bound to this society).
Mentally, ideologically, I am out of here, next up is the physical detachment. My girlfriend was recently offered a job in Europe, where she would have her choice of two locations: Brasov, Romania or Wolfsburg, Germany. She is German, so we were leaning towards Wolfsburg, but we have since chosen Brasov(the Southern Carpathians, skiiing, hiking, anonymity, an adventure, travels around Europe). Unfortunately, she has a contract to teach here in NY, and a few doctoral exams to complete, so the move is postponed until next summer.
I am really looking forward to the move, and a nice change of (social) scenery.
I simply do not feel that people care anymore...about anything. I find popular/mainstream culture in the U.S. grotesque, and I feel we as individuals have lost our way. A handful of good people on a Pearl Jam message board does not mean that society is progressing in any way, shape, or form.

What's your evidence that we're not progressing in any way, shape or form?

"In any way, shape or form" was a bit exaggerated. Thinking about this stuff is a bit depressing though, and that fed the exaggeration.
But, just look at all the categories in which we used to at the top, and in which we are now towards the bottom: education, infrastructure, economy, politics........ That has to be an indication of something

Go Beavers

whygohome wrote:

Go Beavers wrote:

whygohome wrote:

Understandable. I never really considered myself a regular poster, but I have had spurts.
A little while ago, I told my friend that I am in the detachment process: detachment from American society (yes, it has to be American society, because I live in the States and I am bound to this society).
Mentally, ideologically, I am out of here, next up is the physical detachment. My girlfriend was recently offered a job in Europe, where she would have her choice of two locations: Brasov, Romania or Wolfsburg, Germany. She is German, so we were leaning towards Wolfsburg, but we have since chosen Brasov(the Southern Carpathians, skiiing, hiking, anonymity, an adventure, travels around Europe). Unfortunately, she has a contract to teach here in NY, and a few doctoral exams to complete, so the move is postponed until next summer.
I am really looking forward to the move, and a nice change of (social) scenery.
I simply do not feel that people care anymore...about anything. I find popular/mainstream culture in the U.S. grotesque, and I feel we as individuals have lost our way. A handful of good people on a Pearl Jam message board does not mean that society is progressing in any way, shape, or form.

What's your evidence that we're not progressing in any way, shape or form?

"In any way, shape or form" was a bit exaggerated. Thinking about this stuff is a bit depressing though, and that fed the exaggeration.
But, just look at all the categories in which we used to at the top, and in which we are now towards the bottom: education, infrastructure, economy, politics........ That has to be an indication of something

To me it reflects a rise in global standard of living combined with mis-spent funds within the United States.

whygohome

Go Beavers wrote:

whygohome wrote:

Go Beavers wrote:

What's your evidence that we're not progressing in any way, shape or form?

"In any way, shape or form" was a bit exaggerated. Thinking about this stuff is a bit depressing though, and that fed the exaggeration.
But, just look at all the categories in which we used to at the top, and in which we are now towards the bottom: education, infrastructure, economy, politics........ That has to be an indication of something

To me it reflects a rise in global standard of living combined with mis-spent funds within the United States.

TomAto, TomAHto.

The rise in the global standard of living is a good thing, no matter how much it scares the American Exceptionalists

STAYSEA

Go Beavers wrote:

whygohome wrote:

Understandable. I never really considered myself a regular poster, but I have had spurts.
A little while ago, I told my friend that I am in the detachment process: detachment from American society (yes, it has to be American society, because I live in the States and I am bound to this society).
Mentally, ideologically, I am out of here, next up is the physical detachment. My girlfriend was recently offered a job in Europe, where she would have her choice of two locations: Brasov, Romania or Wolfsburg, Germany. She is German, so we were leaning towards Wolfsburg, but we have since chosen Brasov(the Southern Carpathians, skiiing, hiking, anonymity, an adventure, travels around Europe). Unfortunately, she has a contract to teach here in NY, and a few doctoral exams to complete, so the move is postponed until next summer.
I am really looking forward to the move, and a nice change of (social) scenery.
I simply do not feel that people care anymore...about anything. I find popular/mainstream culture in the U.S. grotesque, and I feel we as individuals have lost our way. A handful of good people on a Pearl Jam message board does not mean that society is progressing in any way, shape, or form.

What's your evidence that we're not progressing in any way, shape or form?

It is progressing... americans (well some) are noticing . I used to work in the book industry.. and it's almost gone.. magazines are getting sloppy. "mainstreamers" just do what ever Oprah says. Natural Selection. survival of the brainless?

brianlux

STAYSEA wrote:

It is progressing... americans (well some) are noticing . I used to work in the book industry.. and it's almost gone.. magazines are getting sloppy. "mainstreamers" just do what ever Oprah says. Natural Selection. survival of the brainless?

This sounds like the description of a downward progression. I'd love to hear more about your work in the book business, STAYSEA, because I am in that business as well (used books- a great way to recycle)- but more importantly, what you are saying is exactly why I'm in the book business. It gives me the opportunity to turn people on to good, intelligently written books both because they tell about what people do (non-fiction) and why they do what they do (fiction). I get no greater thrill than to turn a high school kid on to John Steinbeck and Sylvia Plath or Terry Tempest Williams and Wendell Berry or whomever. Yes, there is a lot of low grade printed matter out there (or digital "print" on e-readers if that's what you're into) but there are still many, many fine, well written books out there. I agree with that whole theory of the "dumbing down of America"- there's no denying it- this is something that is painfully obvious (if nothing else, statistics will prove this to be true so I'd be surprised to see any argument here on this subject.) This is why it is important to have places like this to intelligently (we hope) discuss matters of relevence.

So here I am, writing this in a thread where explained why I jumped off the train. I thought about that today and thought about the comment mikepegg44 said:

"so if someone were to agree with you on everything they are ok, but if someone disagrees with you it is because it is simply convenient or whatever fox tells them?

just f'n with you."

I know he was mostly kidding, but in a way, it was a good call. We all like to be right and we all- at least mostly- like to be agreed with.

We need places like this. We need them to be intelligent. And, yeah, we (or perhaps I should say "I") need to be able to suck it up when someone disagrees with us/me. It would just be so much better here if we could disagree in a more civil manner than many of us have at times.

We're smart- let's be smarter. We're good- let's be better.

STAYSEA

Im with the BRAin on this!!!

The Brain Knows!!!!


Well, at least we're all Pearl Jam fans, right!

Take care everyone... and take care of someone else. And forgive me if this all seems too self-indulgent. I don't mean it that way.[/quote]

STAYSEA

I walk the line.

brianlux

STAYSEA wrote:

Im with the BRAin on this!!!

The Brain Knows!!!!


Well, at least we're all Pearl Jam fans, right!

Take care everyone... and take care of someone else. And forgive me if this all seems too self-indulgent. I don't mean it that way.

[/quote]
I LOVE that quote- right on Staysea! Not self-indulgent at all- it's a wonderful thought!

RFTC

alright blux, dont stray too far. we need your voice back on the train someday...p.s. is of mice n men better than grapes of wrath? read the latter...

brianlux

RFTC wrote:

alright blux, dont stray too far. we need your voice back on the train someday...p.s. is of mice n men better than grapes of wrath? read the latter...

Hey, thanks, RFTC! Books- the subject always tempts to hang around a while. Oh, I love Steinbeck and not ashamed to say it. My Pop used to take us down to Cannery Row when we were kids and he'd show us Doc's Lab - that is, the real Ed Ricketts and the real Ed Ricketts lab. It was boarded up but basically intact with ocean-air faded walls and salt crusted windows and it was getting ready to start falling apart at the seams. The stink, noise, light, tone, habit, nostalgia and dream still lingered and it was very much still a poem.

But we were talking of mice, men and grapes. Of Mice and Men is a mini masterpiece, a nearly perfect tragedy and an incredible piece of work. Grapes of Wrath of course is much more sweeping and wide and very solid. Grapes of Wrath- FWUMP! A massive monster of a great book. So I guess I'd have to say apples and oranges or grapes and watermelons. I love them both but my favorites are Tortilla Flat, Cannery Row, Sweet Thursday and Travells With Charley- not necessarily because they're better but because they're the easiest shoes to put on for me.

How did you like Grapes, RFTC?

STAYSEA

Grapes of Wrath is out there.

brianlux

STAYSEA wrote:

Grapes of Wrath is out there.

Have you ever had that said of you? It has been of me.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

brianlux wrote:

Sometimes I see myself as just being a thorn in the side around here when what I want most is to be a useful contributer. I guess what I really need is a break from the train.

this is why for the most part now I stay away from here. I come here now and again to read topics that I feel may interest me or that I could learn something from, but all too often posting on the train is useless. you just get attacked. people don't want to learn, they want to change minds. which is the opposite of a purposeful discussion.

Byrnzie

brianlux wrote:

RFTC wrote:

alright blux, dont stray too far. we need your voice back on the train someday...p.s. is of mice n men better than grapes of wrath? read the latter...

Hey, thanks, RFTC! Books- the subject always tempts to hang around a while. Oh, I love Steinbeck and not ashamed to say it. My Pop used to take us down to Cannery Row when we were kids and he'd show us Doc's Lab - that is, the real Ed Ricketts and the real Ed Ricketts lab. It was boarded up but basically intact with ocean-air faded walls and salt crusted windows and it was getting ready to start falling apart at the seams. The stink, noise, light, tone, habit, nostalgia and dream still lingered and it was very much still a poem.

But we were talking of mice, men and grapes. Of Mice and Men is a mini masterpiece, a nearly perfect tragedy and an incredible piece of work. Grapes of Wrath of course is much more sweeping and wide and very solid. Grapes of Wrath- FWUMP! A massive monster of a great book. So I guess I'd have to say apples and oranges or grapes and watermelons. I love them both but my favorites are Tortilla Flat, Cannery Row, Sweet Thursday and Travells With Charley- not necessarily because they're better but because they're the easiest shoes to put on for me.

How did you like Grapes, RFTC?

You may like this here article in today's Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/no ... -steinbeck


John Steinbeck's bitter fruit

Seventy years after The Grapes of Wrath was published, its themes – corporate greed, joblessness – are back with a vengeance. Melvyn Bragg on John Steinbeck's remarkable legacy


Melvyn Bragg
Guardian.co.uk, Monday 21 November 2011


I read The Grapes of Wrath in that fierce span of adolescence when reading was a frenzy. I was all but drowned in the pity and anger John Steinbeck evoked for these people, fleeing Oklahoma to seek work but finding nothing save cruelty, violence, the enmity of immoral banks and businesses, and the neglect by the state of its own people in the Land of the Free. The novel was published in 1939 and delivered a shock to the English reading world.

But for years I did not read him. Earlier this year, when asked to make a film about Steinbeck for the BBC, I went back with apprehension. The peaks of one's adolescent reading can prove troughs in late middle age. Life moves on; not all books do. But 50 years later, The Grapes of Wrath seems as savage as ever, and richer for my greater awareness of what Steinbeck did with the Oklahoma dialect and with his characters. It is just as alive, with its fine anger against the banks: "The bank – the monster – has to have profit all the time. It can't wait … It'll die when the monster stops growing. It can't stay in one place."

We started filming with a small crew in Oklahoma, near the spot where the novel begins. This summer there was another drought, as there had been in the 1930s. They farm land better now, but even so, many farmers are going bust. The resonances with contemporary America were powerful: the working and middle classes have once again been holed by the big banks. Once again, the protests have started up, as Americans scan their continent for work. As in the 1930s, there is a powerful feeling that the promised land promises nothing, not even hope.

In Steinbeck's day, this was part of the American dust bowl. "Every moving thing lifted the dust into the air," he wrote in The Grapes of Wrath. "A walking man lifted a thin layer as high as his waist. An automobile boiled a cloud behind it." Archive footage of the time shows dust storms swirling across the flat lands like tornadoes.

In the novel, the Joad family are driven off their farm by the banks. They pile, all 12 of them, into a truck which takes aim for the west coast, more than 1,000 miles of desert and a mountain range away. Although Steinbeck was not a Christian, he plundered the King James Bible for stories (Cain and Abel became East of Eden) and for the pulse of his prose. The family of 12 on that truck are as the 12 tribes of Israel seeking liberation. The truck itself is an ark; there is even a man named Noah on board. It was this journey that my camera crew and I followed, often down Highway 66, "the main immigrant road … the path of people in flight, refugees from dust and the shrinking land, from the thunder of tractors and shrinking ownership". Upwards of half a million Americans migrated west in the space of two or three years in the 30s, the biggest internal migration in US history.

What happened to the Joad family was an attempt to keep them and everybody like them out of California. In effect, the state unilaterally seceded from the rest of the country, refusing entry to their fellow Americans and criminalising them. There were beatings, and the loss of civil rights. The Nation magazine reported that at a place called Salinas, near the Californian coast, "something shockingly like a concentration camp had recently been constructed … a water tower rises in solitary grandeur in the midst of the camp. Surrounding the tower is a platform splendidly adapted for observation, night illumination and marksmanship." In September 1936, a pitched battle was fought in Salinas between the forces of agribusiness (stiffened by 250 proto-fascist American Legionnaires and 2,000 local vigilantes) and workers who had been forced to accept less-than-subsistence wages, forever undercut by the desperation of other workers prepared to take any wages. They were loosely organised by communists, but mostly driven by hunger.

Undercover on the bread line

Salinas was Steinbeck's home town. It made him, and after that street battle, it made him anew. His birth house is now a museum. It is a detached building, on what was in his boyhood the upper professional class road in the town, as Victorian as you could imagine. Fine bricks and wood, good-sized and plentiful rooms, sturdy furniture. On the wall there is a Christmas photograph of Mr and Mrs Steinbeck and their children, every one of them dressed as if for church. Every one of them is reading a book. The camera receives not a single glance. The Steinbecks are engaged in things of the mind.

Steinbeck studied science at university, but from an early age declared himself to be a writer and set up an unrelenting daily routine. His intellectual fascinations were great literature and biology, especially marine biology. His whole world view began in a rock pool and swept up to a study of the stars.

He had written articles about the migrants passing through Salinas, and worked at menial jobs around California for months during his protracted university years, but The Grapes of Wrath proved radically different. It was as if he had transplanted himself into another class, and into areas of passion and politics he had only observed before. A previous novel, In Dubious Battle, was an examination of earlier labour battles, but he wrote of that book: "I wanted to achieve a kind of detached perspective. I'm non-partisan, I'm just going to report, as a journalist, what's going on." In that curiously bloodless book, the communist organisers are as manipulative as the landowners themselves. In Dubious Battle was his rock pool. He was the examining scientist.

In The Grapes of Wrath you feel (correctly I believe) that Steinbeck was a core participant. What had changed him? In my view, it was probably a man called Tom Collins. After the battle of Salinas, Steinbeck decided to go undercover for months, to research what would become The Grapes of Wrath. He contacted the headquarters of the Farm Security Administration in Washington and said he wanted to work as a migrant. They assigned him to Collins, a camp manager at Arvin in California. The two men worked in the valleys for several months in 1937. Steinbeck dedicated the book "To Tom – who lived it".

The camp Collins ran features like a utopia in the novel. We filmed there this summer, and it is deeply touching to see that Collins not only ran a rare, uncorrupt and democratic camp, but had put up a schoolhouse, a library and a meeting hall. Collins and Arvin are at the moral centre of the book; what he learned there gave Steinbeck the vision and mass of knowledge he needed to write the book. He learned how to keep battered trucks on the road, what food was possible on the poverty line. His descriptions of physical work are authentic, as are the flashes of human kindness and the constant stab of inhuman cruelty.

Steinbeck wrote furiously and said that the effort nearly destroyed him. "I'm trying to write history while it is happening, and I don't want it to be wrong." He added: "t is a mean, nasty book and if I could make it nastier I would … the book has a definite job to do … I want to put a tag of shame on the greedy bastards who are responsible for this." He took his title from the Book of Revelation, via the triumphalist 1861 Battle Hymn of the Republic, reprinting it in full at the beginning of the novel.

A liar and a communist

It was the bestselling book in America in 1939. A film version starring Henry Fonda and directed by John Ford followed, itself a classic. Arthur Miller wrote of Steinbeck, "I can't think of another American writer, with the possible exception of Mark Twain, who so deeply penetrated the political life of the country." And yet Steinbeck was also called "a liar", "a communist" and "a Jew acting for Zionist-Communist interests". The book was burned in the streets; it was banned in schools and libraries, with its explicit sexuality given as the excuse. It was virulently attacked in Congress, and Steinbeck's subsequent success in Russia eroded his reputation from the cold war onwards. He bought himself a revolver for self-defence and had good reason to fear for his life. The book has sold about 14m copies and still sells steadily.

Steinbeck went on to develop his interest in natural science and to write many more books. His large attempt was to find common ground between the observable natural world and the worlds of myths and mysticism. His reputation was blasted regularly by the new metropolitan tastemakers. The New York Times poured bile over his head the day before he won the Nobel prize, in 1962 ("The Swedes have made a serious error by giving the prize to a writer whose limited talent is in his best books watered down by 10th-rate philosophising"), though there were many fine writers who rushed to defend him. Steinbeck answered his critics in his acceptance speech in Stockholm. "Literature is not a game for the cloistered elect. Literature is as old as speech. It grew out of human need for it and it has not changed except to become more needed."

brianlux

Byrnzie wrote:

You may like this here article in today's Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/no ... -steinbeck

Excellent article, Byrnzie. Thanks!

Steinbeck was one of the first writers to really capture both my imagination and an interest in social issues. I think I've read just about everything he wrote including A Life in Letters, a huge 861 page collection of his letters edited by his wife, Elaine. I wasn't sure I'd get through the whole thing but these letters really are, like everything he wrote, at the very least interesting and often fascinating.

markin ball

East of Eden is Steinbeck's best in my humble opinion.

STAYSEA

Brain still loves us.
He is staying .. do not panic!

brianlux

STAYSEA wrote:

Brain still loves us.
He is staying .. do not panic!

It's true, I do.

I've also learned that it's easier to just breathe rather than jump.

SweetChildofMine

Aww...


Depression can set in easily and be overwhelming. I completely understand. Im gonna miss yah. I too will leave soon too. Getting tired of butting heads heralding the news when if feels no one listens. But when I ignore the world and its people it quickly seems to fall to shit. so what do I do then let it fall to shit or jump back into the boxing ring? I dont know what to tell yah. Damned if you do and damned if you dont.

Best wishes for whatever you decide to do. Been quite a pleasure getting to know you.

brianlux

SweetChildofMine wrote:

Aww...


Depression can set in easily and be overwhelming. I completely understand. Im gonna miss yah. I too will leave soon too. Getting tired of butting heads heralding the news when if feels no one listens. But when I ignore the world and its people it quickly seems to fall to shit. so what do I do then let it fall to shit or jump back into the boxing ring? I dont know what to tell yah. Damned if you do and damned if you dont.

Best wishes for whatever you decide to do. Been quite a pleasure getting to know you.

I'm sorry SweetChildofMine--- I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing at me. Look at what a rumor I've started!

My "Jump Ship" post originated last September when some of the AMT posts rankled me to the point of wanting to bail. That's old news- like I say, I've learned that when a post irks me it's best to take a deep breath (or pound on my desk, right R.? ) and just regroup my thoughts.

So this thread is like a circle... or a song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqH21LEmfbQ

Hey, I'm stayin'!