California school's to teach glbt history by 2015

Prince Of Dorkness

know1 wrote:

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

"Gay" isn't something that I do.

It's something that I am..

And here is why we won't be in agreement in this debate. I do not think of sex as something that I am, but rather something that I choose to do or not do.

And further, I believe that something is not really anybody else's business and shouldn't be shouted from the rooftops.

So... that's all your girlfriend/wife is to you? A sex partner? A place for you to... stick it? If you "choose?"

Because my family is a lot more than that to me.

And fine... if it's not really "anybody else's business...."

We had 6 months of wall-to-wall coverage of the royal wedding. But I never once heard anyone say "why is it my business who he's screwing?" or "Why does he think his sex life needs to be publicized like that?"

If it doesn't need to be "shouted from the rooftops" maybe you can explain this?


Or this..



Or this..

http://youtu.be/3kDgcfycAj0?t=2m51s

And MOST of all ... this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDZsuAeF8rY

Prince Of Dorkness

unsung wrote:

If I have kids they will go to private schools.

Oh please. If you have kids they'll go to a reform school.

Which, I guess is private.

So... yeah.

Godfather.

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

know1 wrote:

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

"Gay" isn't something that I do.

It's something that I am..

And here is why we won't be in agreement in this debate. I do not think of sex as something that I am, but rather something that I choose to do or not do.

And further, I believe that something is not really anybody else's business and shouldn't be shouted from the rooftops.

So... that's all your girlfriend/wife is to you? A sex partner? A place for you to... stick it? If you "choose?"

Because my family is a lot more than that to me.

And fine... if it's not really "anybody else's business...."

We had 6 months of wall-to-wall coverage of the royal wedding. But I never once heard anyone say "why is it my business who he's screwing?" or "Why does he think his sex life needs to be publicized like that?"

If it doesn't need to be "shouted from the rooftops" maybe you can explain this?


Or this..



Or this..

http://youtu.be/3kDgcfycAj0?t=2m51s

And MOST of all ... this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDZsuAeF8rY

are you discriminating aginst hedro's........you BIGOT ! just kidding man.
geeze when I tryed to give my opinion on this issue I was called a bigot and accused of discrimination.

Godfather.

Prince Of Dorkness

Godfather. wrote:

are you discriminating aginst hedro's........you BIGOT ! just kidding man.
geeze when I tryed to give my opinion on this issue I was called a bigot and accused of discrimination.

Godfather.

hm. I wonder why?

Godfather.

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

are you discriminating aginst hedro's........you BIGOT ! just kidding man.
geeze when I tryed to give my opinion on this issue I was called a bigot and accused of discrimination.

Godfather.

hm. I wonder why?

man go back and reread some of your post's.....not much different than mine but this group of self appointed judges convicted me of biggotery and discrimination........maybe they should watch some old gladiator movies with a bottle of jack

Godfather.

Prince Of Dorkness

Godfather. wrote:

man go back and reread some of your post's.....not much different than mine but this group of self appointed judges convicted me of biggotery and discrimination........maybe they should watch some old gladiator movies with a bottle of jack

Godfather.

Don't be silly.

I haven't said we shouldn't talk about the private lives of public figures. I think we should, gay and straight.

I think to truly understand history, we have to completely understand that people who made it. Why did J. Edgar Hoover go after John F Kennedy so angrily? Why was Susan B Anthony so dedicated to women's rights?

Why was Harvey Milk such an advocate for gay equality? Why was the Army of 300 Spartans so small yet so unbeatable? What was Francis Bacon's underlying wish when he came up with "Utopia?"

Don't you think that should be part of the lesson?

know1

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

So... that's all your girlfriend/wife is to you? A sex partner? A place for you to... stick it? If you "choose?"

Because my family is a lot more than that to me.

And fine... if it's not really "anybody else's business...."

We had 6 months of wall-to-wall coverage of the royal wedding. But I never once heard anyone say "why is it my business who he's screwing?" or "Why does he think his sex life needs to be publicized like that?"

If it doesn't need to be "shouted from the rooftops" maybe you can explain this?


Or this..



Or this..

http://youtu.be/3kDgcfycAj0?t=2m51s

And MOST of all ... this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDZsuAeF8rY

Nope. I didn't say they were sex objects. I also think that sex is one component of marriage and not the whole thing.

To me, seeing a Just Married sign doesn't really blatantly say anything about sex or sexual choices. Nor does it really have anything to do with a debate about school curriculum, so I'm not sure why we're talking about it.

I'm just stating my opinions. I don't think that we should be blatantly stating or talking about historical figures' sexual preferences. It's fine to talk about what they did that was historical, but I don't think we should make a point of saying anything about their sexual preference. If it's implied or can be inferred, that's fine with me, but I don't understand making a point of it.

Prince Of Dorkness

know1 wrote:

Nope. I didn't say they were sex objects. I also think that sex is one component of marriage and not the whole thing.

Hm. Interesting. But mentioning that a historical figure was gay.. THAT's teaching about sex.

To me, seeing a Just Married sign doesn't really blatantly say anything about sex or sexual choices.

It has nothing to do with them but it DOES point out that they're straight, doesn't it? And they're literally shouting it from a rooftop. I remember at one of the very few weddings I went to being told that "gay people shouldn't flaunt their private lives... we don't do that" and I burst out laughing and pointing at the idiot woman who said it then said "you see where you ARE right?"

Nor does it really have anything to do with a debate about school curriculum, so I'm not sure why we're talking about it.

It has EVERYTHING to do with it. Straight people can be SO open and non-challant about their habit of flaunting their personal lives and pointing out that they're straight that they don't even notice it. But if I hold hands with my husband in a restaurant, I get accused of "flaunting it." We teach about the private lives of straight historical figures all the time. Why not have the exact same policy for gay historical figures?

I'm just stating my opinions. I don't think that we should be blatantly stating or talking about historical figures' sexual preferences.

But as long as they're straight... we already do.

It's fine to talk about what they did that was historical, but I don't think we should make a point of saying anything about their sexual preference.

I think I explained that pretty well in my post here...
posting.php?mode=quote&f=13&p=3779463#pr3779342

If it's implied or can be inferred, that's fine with me, but I don't understand making a point of it.

So you want to kinda skirt around the issue and call the men "Confirmed Bachelors" and the women "spinsters" and talk about their "friend they shared a house with for 50 years?"

OK.

That's one approach to "education."

know1

Well I don't remember a picture of George Washington kissing Martha or displaying a "Just Married" sign.

That being said, since gay marriage is legal in places now, if somewhere down the line we want to say "Mr. Historical Figure" was married "Mr. Historical Figure's Husband" in passing, then I'm OK with that.

I just don't think there's a valid, public-school-context reason to go out of your way to point out someone is gay OR HETERO. If we do, I guess we should make it a point to add (Gay), (hetero), (mono), etc., after every historical figure that comes up in their history books.

Prince Of Dorkness

know1 wrote:

Well I don't remember a picture of George Washington kissing Martha or displaying a "Just Married" sign.

But other than being married to him, she did nothing to become a historical figure. We know they were married and we know a good deal about their private lives together. That's my point. His heterosexuality was never a secret and it's written into history books.

That being said, since gay marriage is legal in places now, if somewhere down the line we want to say "Mr. Historical Figure" was married "Mr. Historical Figure's Husband" in passing, then I'm OK with that.

OK, and how about gay couples who were together for decades before? You want that kept secret?

I just don't think there's a valid, public-school-context reason to go out of your way to point out someone is gay OR HETERO. If we do, I guess we should make it a point to add (Gay), (hetero), (mono), etc., after every historical figure that comes up in their history books.

It's very hard to explain to a white, heterosexual Christian that our history was written by white, heterosexual Christians from a white, heterosexual Christian perspective. Minorities area usually treated to either a white-washing, a demotion in importance, being ignored or worse... having the accomplishments being attributed to a White, heterosexual Christian.

Like I said before, in many parts of America, black history begins with slavery and white history begins with the "discovery" of North America (ignoring that there were non-white/non-Christians here for thousands of years already... finding America is attributed to a white, heterosexual Christian).

There were a lot of gay, black, hispanic, Jewish and even Muslim heros on September 11th but to see all the movies about it, you'd think it was nothing but straight, married, handsome Evangelical Christians.

The fact that you can't think of a valid reason to acknowledge that we exist in schools is THE reason I think it needs to be taught. And can we please stop acting like gay people are strange creatures that manifest as fully-grown adults in leather bars in coastal cities? You think I wasn't an elementary school kid at one time? Maybe it would have been cool to learn that I could grow up to be anything and make a big difference to the world and be more than...

Jason P wrote:

all the great pioneers such as Elton John and Freddie Mercury?

Who Princess

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

It's very hard to explain to a white, heterosexual Christian that our history was written by white, heterosexual Christians from a white, heterosexual Christian perspective. Minorities area usually treated to either a white-washing, a demotion in importance, being ignored or worse... having the accomplishments being attributed to a White, heterosexual Christian.

I would add "male" to white, heterosexual Christian.
Women get pretty short shrift in the history books too.

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

The fact that you can't think of a valid reason to acknowledge that we exist in schools is THE reason I think it needs to be taught. And can we please stop acting like gay people are strange creatures that manifest as fully-grown adults in leather bars in coastal cities? You think I wasn't an elementary school kid at one time? Maybe it would have been cool to learn that I could grow up to be anything and make a big difference to the world and be more than...

Jason P wrote:

all the great pioneers such as Elton John and Freddie Mercury?

Something akin to all the great blacks being sports figures or musicians.

Prince Of Dorkness

whoprincess wrote:

I would add "male" to white, heterosexual Christian.
Women get pretty short shrift in the history books too.

that's very true.

Something akin to all the great blacks being sports figures or musicians.

When people say things like JasonP did.. suggesting that all gay people can be is a Flambouyant Rock star..and that's all we have to offer.... feels kinda like being called "Faggot."

know1

I'm just trying to participate in an intelligent debate. I have my opinions and you have yours. I'm a bit dismayed that can't seem to take place without making it personal with stereotypical references to my background and perceived ignorance and closed mindedness.

Horos

I always have a good chuckle reading these debates.

Finally a decent post by Godfather:

Godfather. wrote:

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

are you discriminating aginst hedro's........you BIGOT ! just kidding man.
geeze when I tryed to give my opinion on this issue I was called a bigot and accused of discrimination.

Godfather.

hm. I wonder why?

man go back and reread some of your post's.....not much different than mine but this group of self appointed judges convicted me of biggotery and discrimination........maybe they should watch some old gladiator movies with a bottle of jack

Godfather.

Are your misspellings on purpose? At least for me it draws from your argument.

mikepegg44. wrote:

its similar, they are both biological differences that people discriminate against. So the comparison is pretty valid in this instance.
that is why. And no, it doesn't depend on what part of the country you are from...it is always wrong to discriminate against someone for biological differences. "not agreeing" with "gay sex or relationships" is like not agreeing with someone having one leg shorter than the other, or a lazy eye.
You can feel however you like, but if the way you feel is discriminatory someone is going to call you out on it...as well they should. It isn't ok.

My comment on the biological issue is this.

Evolutionarily(maybe made this word up?) speaking if homosexuals cannot produce then they are on their way to extinction, and therefore must be an unsuccessful mutation. Doesn't help the OPs argument because I'm guessing he doesn't believe in evolution.

Not that it matters but I do have a half-sister who I'm sure has always been gay, as well as a brother-in-law that my wife assures me has also always been gay. I only bring this up because I'm am not too close to my sister but I can see she is at the point of coming out. Unfortunately my step-mother is a strict christian and unwilling to change her views. Just on her Facebook page I can see how this is hurting her.

aerial

Dorkness..........Well God creates miracles so that covers living in a whale. You seem to have such a big chip on your shoulder. Almost every subject on here you are against anyone having rights just because you feel gays do not have rights.

"The kids should not be able to sell lemonade because gays cannot get married." You are the one inhancing the fact that gay is about sex when you posted a link on here of your package. All so proud are you!

[*"[b]Gay [/b]is a word that commonly refers to a male or female whose sexual orientation is attraction to persons of the same sex."]



We have never mention sexual orientation before why start now…….Teachers will not have the time to mention every historical figures sexual preferences

[*“Second... being gay isn't some freaky fetish or perversion. comparing being gay to having a foot fetish or being a cross-dresser is about as offensive as saying that giving my husband and I equal marriage rights will lead to straight people fucking their dogs.”]

You put down people that have a foot fetish or cross dressers. Why would you say they are freaky? How is that any freakier than man on man sex is? Isn’t everyone entitled to there choose of sexual gratification or is that just for gays? Why do you judge people on there sexual preference when you feel you should not be judged??

I also think you are living in the past, do you really think people give a shit if you hold you boy friends hand. Do you really think all eyes are on you constantly…. Just as you did not think, anyone knew about the word gaydar. Where you surprised we had all heard about it ?



[*“And most of the gay people I know are ten times more moral than a lot of straight people I could name. Do you think that gay people aren't "moral?" Do you think gay people have no "family values?"

Because I'll tell you this... my gay friends who are married and have adopted children or children from previous marriages or surrogate mothers or sperm donors... They sure seem to value their families.

And no... there is no "opt out." You can't selectively pick and choose what your kid learns in school. I'm not sure why you'd want your kids to be taught that gay people haven't made any contributions to the world. Because they have.”]



Here you go again, Gays have more morals than straight people do.
I never said gay people have no values or morals. I was saying this is important…I did not imply that only straight people should think it is important.

In addition, yes I can pick what my kids will learn. My granddaughter came home with a paper last year' 3rd grade. The school was having a sex class that just consisted of discussing bad touch good touch…..we opted out….we feel we can teach this at home, in fact we already had. I do not want anyone teaching my kids about sex. I feel it is an intimate private subject that should be discussed at home.

All in all you need to get over your self and get off your high horse..


This song was written decades ago but is still pertains to us all
today.....


"Everyday People"
Sometimes I'm right then I can be wrong
My own beliefs are in my songs
A butcher, a banker, a drummer and then
Makes no difference what group I'm in
I am everyday people

There is a blue one who can't accept
The green one for living with
a black ones tryin' to be a skinny one
Different strokes for different folks
And so on and so on and scooby dooby dooby

Ooh sha sha
We gotta live together

I am no better and neither are you
We're all the same whatever we do
You love me you hate me
You know me and then
Still can't figure out the bag I'm in
I am everyday people

There is a new man
That doesn't like the short man
For being such a rich one
That will not help the poor one
Different strokes for different folks
And so on and so on scooby dooby dooby

Ooh sha sha
We got to live together

There is a yellow one that won't
Accept the black one
That won't accept the red one
That won't accept the white one

Different strokes for different folks
And so on and so on and
Scooby dooby dooby
Ooh sha sha
I am everyday people

know1

I agree. As I said in my last post, there's seems to be a lot of hypocritical "do as I say and not as I do" going on here.

Prince Of Dorkness

aerial wrote:

[You are the one inhancing the fact that gay is about sex when you posted a link on here of your package. All so proud are you!

I posted a link to an article that I wrote about how different generations reacted differently to the Anthony Wiener scandal because of how they perceive the concept of privacy and sharing intimate details of their lives. I didn't mention sex in the article at all.

It was accompanied by a parody image of his famous "twitter" crotch picture... and in case you didn't realize this, Anthony Wiener is straight.

We have never mention sexual orientation before why start now…….

Of course we have. It's just that we've only mentioned straight people before... so you didn't notice.

Teachers will not have the time to mention every historical figures sexual preferences

What a truly insipid argument.

You put down people that have a foot fetish or cross dressers. Why would you say they are freaky? How is that any freakier than man on man sex is? Isn’t everyone entitled to there choose of sexual gratification or is that just for gays? Why do you judge people on there sexual preference when you feel you should not be judged??

Oh good god... are you doing the Pee Wee Herman "I know you are but what am I?" thing? Ugh. :roll:

I also think you are living in the past, do you really think people give a shit if you hold you boy friends hand. Do you really think all eyes are on you constantly…. Just as you did not think, anyone knew about the word gaydar. Where you surprised we had all heard about it ?

1. In Hollywood? No. But about a month ago, I was at the Orange County Fair with my riding buddies. A man called us "faggots." As he passed by with his wife and kids. So yeah... sadly some people really do give a shit.

And by the way.... I do not have a "boy friend." I have a husband. We're legally married. We've been together for 19 years. Show a bit of respect.

2. If you didn't see the humor in that thread, there's little hope for you. That was like seeing a video of Britney Spears and saying "I have a new word for you... Skank" or seeing that thing you just wrote and saying "I have a new word for you... clueless."

Here you go again, Gays have more morals than straight people do.

Don't be silly. I never said that at all. But what I DID say - and I'm right - is that being straight is no more moral than being gay.

I do not want anyone teaching my kids about sex. I feel it is an intimate private subject that should be discussed at home.

And again... teaching about gay figures in history is not "teaching about sex." Any more than teaching that George Washington was straight is "teaching about sex."

All in all you need to get over your self and get off your high horse..

I think what you mean is "you need to stop standing up for yourself because it's shaking my 'better than you' status and it makes me uncomfortable."

Sorry. No.

Prince Of Dorkness

know1 wrote:

I agree. As I said in my last post, there's seems to be a lot of hypocritical "do as I say and not as I do" going on here.

Yes. There is.

Straight people can proudly display pictures of their husbands and wives on their desks, wear their wedding rings, drive down the street honking horns, holding up traffic, and making noise and waving "JUST MARRIED" signs. Straight people can say "My wife and I..." or "My girlfriend says...." but the moment a gay person does the same thing... some straight people lose their shit and start to accuse us of "shouting it from the rooftops" and "flaunting it" and "pushing it in our faces."

Or "teaching about sex."

You have no problem teaching about the private and personal lives of straight people but doing the same with gay historical figures... that's not cool to you.

We can learn about the Boston Tea Party.

But we can't learn about the Stonewall Riots. And, in case you didn't know... the Stonewall Riots were one of the most important events in American civil rights uprisings. And it happened in 1969. But we don't teach about that in school. Sad.

keeponrockin

aerial wrote:

Dorkness..........Well God creates miracles so that covers living in a whale. e

Prove it. Give me an ounce of proof this happened and we can teach it in schools. We can prove the stonewall riots happened. We can prove the Matthew Shepard case happened. We can't prove a guy lived in a fucking whale. Until then, out.

Prince Of Dorkness

keeponrockin wrote:

We can prove the stonewall riots happened.

That's probably the perfect example of gay history being ignored.

That story has NOTHING to do with sex. At all.

But it was the first time in American history wher a group that was previous not defined as a "minority" suddenly appeared on the national consciousness fully-formed. There really isn't much like it in 20th century history where a group that had existed only in secret suddenly stood up and angrily fought back for their own rights. For their own legal status of some kind.

We've learned a LOT from gay history in the 20th century. None of it concerns sex. But it does concern the way that a small, spread out, nebulous and usually unidentifiable group somehow managed to band together to enact some radical and amazing social changes.

For instance... because of the gay community's tireless push for a treatment for HIV - that Ronald Reagan worked VERY hard to stop - a cure was found for Leprosy. Leprosy was a disease previous called "God's punishment" and was incurable and untreatable for centuries... until the gay community funded and forced research into retro viruses.

But we can't teach that in school or we're teaching "about sex."