ALbeit I'm no trekkie (prefer star wars) and I hate the Pats, I think they should still have the same rights as everyone... well maybe not Bellichek.. he can rot in hell!
Secondly, when is it acceptable to discriminate? The answer is NEVER.
What about Trekkies and fans of the New England Patriots? Surely that doesn't make me a bad person, does it? :think:
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
depends on what part of the country you are from, I didn't say anything negative about the gay issue or the gay people I don't judge people on on their sexual desires,I don't agree with gay sex or relationships but the bottom line is that people are people...and why is it that every time a issue like this comes up someone here has to bring up the race card...thats always the ez way out for everything when people debate an issue here, kinda week in my opinion.
Godfather.
It was the easiest comparison I can think of to be honest. I think that minority history is important, and maybe it'll inspire the one gay kid in the class, and make him or her feel better, as African Americans might feel prouder about there community when learning about civil rights leaders. Can't be a bad thing IMO.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
Actually, the a poster said "you're smarter than that" and my reply was "obviously not" - because of your comments.
Secondly, when is it acceptable to discriminate? The answer is NEVER. But because you think your religion or some other groups of people agree, it makes it a legitimate or opinion of merit - it's not. A racist typically doesn't walk around saying their a racist, but instead proclaims he's just viewing society or people around in a specific manner. That is all this anti-gay nonsense is.. except some use religion or morality or family values or whatever other nonsensical excuse to discriminate. And to further explain the point, it is not simply having an opinion on the matter as is to seek approval of society, but instead these are the reasons why gays don't have the same rights as anyone else in society. That's why it is not simply an opinion of meaningless or a matter of being right/wrong. We are discriminating in our society because of a sexual orientation - that's unacceptable and no different from minorities not being able to vote, or women voting or segregation.
so according to you guy's sense I don't agree with the gay idea I am discriminating aginst the gay community
or anybody who is gay ?
Godfather.
maaan brother just about your whole post (except some use religion or morality or family values or whatever other nonsensical excuse to discriminate.) is a example of what you call discrimination I'm not nailing on you I'm just saying the word discriminate seems to have a wide circle of meaning and it look like it comes right back to the accuser.
depends on what part of the country you are from, I didn't say anything negative about the gay issue or the gay people I don't judge people on on their sexual desires,I don't agree with gay sex or relationships but the bottom line is that people are people...and why is it that every time a issue like this comes up someone here has to bring up the race card...thats always the ez way out for everything when people debate an issue here, kinda week in my opinion.
Godfather.
It was the easiest comparison I can think of to be honest. I think that minority history is important, and maybe it'll inspire the one gay kid in the class, and make him or her feel better, as African Americans might feel prouder about there community when learning about civil rights leaders. Can't be a bad thing IMO.
Care to elaborate? Not sure what you're attempting to say. Are you saying because I don't respect people's right to feel this way, I am discriminating against people who are anti-gay (for whatever the reason)? Please explain.
And this is from the dictionary:
dis·crim·i·nate
1.to make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs rather than according to actual merit; show partiality
2.to note or observe a difference; distinguish accurately
maaan brother just about your whole post (except some use religion or morality or family values or whatever other nonsensical excuse to discriminate.) is a example of what you call discrimination I'm not nailing on you I'm just saying the word discriminate seems to have a wide circle of meaning and it look like it comes right back to the accuser.
Godfather.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Actually, the a poster said "you're smarter than that" and my reply was "obviously not" - because of your comments.
Secondly, when is it acceptable to discriminate? The answer is NEVER. But because you think your religion or some other groups of people agree, it makes it a legitimate or opinion of merit - it's not. A racist typically doesn't walk around saying their a racist, but instead proclaims he's just viewing society or people around in a specific manner. That is all this anti-gay nonsense is.. except some use religion or morality or family values or whatever other nonsensical excuse to discriminate. And to further explain the point, it is not simply having an opinion on the matter as is to seek approval of society, but instead these are the reasons why gays don't have the same rights as anyone else in society. That's why it is not simply an opinion of meaningless or a matter of being right/wrong. We are discriminating in our society because of a sexual orientation - that's unacceptable and no different from minorities not being able to vote, or women voting or segregation.
so according to you guy's sense I don't agree with the gay idea I am discriminating aginst the gay community
or anybody who is gay ?
Godfather.
If there is an option to opt out, I guess I could live with it. I personally feel sex should not be taught at school. There dropping sport activities yet they add this?
It is a travesty that some feel religion, morality or family values are Nonsensical.
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
Sports and After school activities are being dropped because of budget reasons - ie they have to pay teachers extra to coach or monitor them. Also, sex education has been in school systems for quite some time and it appears this new area would be taught,not from a sex education leaning, but a historical one.. ie no different from learning about other groups through the course of history. We learn all about women and minorities rights and leaders as a method of teaching history.. how is that any different? They're all ways to show how we've grown as a society and earmark certain people as pioneers contributing to freedoms and equality. How exactly is that wrong or bad?
Also, my comments about religion, morality and family values was meant specifically in the line of thought that it is used as an excuse to discriminate against people. I have one value which I think everyone could and should do, be a decent human being and treat each other fairly and equally. Doesn't seem like some people care to do that simply because of secondary reasons which they themselves justify. And in the end of the day, those secondary reasons still don't justify or equate to a good reason. If I said I hate some minority group and they shouldn't be afforded the same rights as the rest of society, just because I find it a valid opinion, doesn't make it ok nor makes it right or just...and yes, even if your religion tells you otherwise. Last I recall, most morally decent people treat everyone the same, and most religions tell their followers to be kind and decent and let god judge, not humans.. but I guess that's not applicable? Discrimination is not a decent moral code or value to be adhering too and if you find yourself saying it is, perhaps you should reconsider your morals, follow the basic tenets of your religion instead of using them to ostracize people in society.
If there is an option to opt out, I guess I could live with it. I personally feel sex should not be taught at school. There dropping sport activities yet they add this?
It is a travesty that some feel religion, morality or family values are Nonsensical.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I guess it depends on the context in which it is taught.
I don't really think it's appropriate to teach something like: "Columbus landed in the West in 1492,and he also enjoyed sexual relations with his first mate" is just plain stupid and wrong.
If it's in the context of "In 2011, New York voted to legalize gay marriage." Then I don't have a problem with it.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I dont even know what this means other than public appeasement. Have our history books excluded gay historical figures? Or is it that important to know the sexual orientation of them? I mean, it's not like they taught us about Jefferson's sex life with his servant, so why would the opposite even matter? I really don't see the big deal. The only big deal here is maybe integrating some of the civil rights moments into that part of the lesson plan, and that sounds like a completely reasonable thing to do. It puts yet another perspective on what being a civil activist means and the diversity we should all be considerate of. My NY school was teaching this 25 years ago.
I think sometimes folks get frightened that any reference to gay education means teaching kids to be gay. Does teaching about slavery make us want to be servants? I'm missing something from this argument.
I'm always amazed by how far the rest of the country is behind the northeast at times. Even a state like California which is supposed to be so inclusive. To me, having lived my whole live here, this is a yawn issue. But I guess some places still need to catch up. Would just be better if they just did it instead of making it a political issue all the time.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
2.to note or observe a difference; distinguish accurately.........
I don't agree with the gay issue and never have,I don't think gay people are any different than anybody else..till they go to bed but hay didn't columbus's crew have relations with sheep ? BAAAAAAAAAD sailor !
all joking aside if you guys want to think I am a bigot or I discriminate because I don't aprove or in anyway agree with the gay issue.....cool but you should be a little careful of how loosley you use your words because thay can and will come right back at you from time to time
2.to note or observe a difference; distinguish accurately.........
I don't agree with the gay issue and never have,I don't think gay people are any different than anybody else..till they go to bed but hay didn't columbus's crew have relations with sheep ? BAAAAAAAAAD sailor !
all joking aside if you guys want to think I am a bigot or I discriminate because I don't aprove or in anyway agree with the gay issue.....cool but you should be a little careful of how loosley you use your words because thay can and will come right back at you from time to time
Godfather.
One thing I like about you, even though you disagree, at the end of the day it's "well, it's their lives, they're people too".
Post edited by keeponrockin on
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
that's a good point " You (me) justify such ideas but it dosn't mean it's o.k." you may not like this and I mean no offense but you just as everybody else justify your/their thoughts and ideas and stand behind them as true and correct ....now if my thoughts and ideas are not the same as yours who is right and who is wrong ?
you all know my feelings on the gay issue but allowing me the same respect to say how I feel about it does that make my thoughts wrong ? and because of my view on gay issue's I am a bigot and discriminating aginst the gay community ?
Godfather.
If I were to say something like 'segregation was a great thing and black people should be treated as second class citizens' would people be able to say I'm wrong, or is it just my thoughts?
depends on what part of the country you are from, I didn't say anything negative about the gay issue or the gay people I don't judge people on on their sexual desires,I don't agree with gay sex or relationships but the bottom line is that people are people...and why is it that every time a issue like this comes up someone here has to bring up the race card...thats always the ez way out for everything when people debate an issue here, kinda week in my opinion.
Godfather.
whats with the THE here. Being homosexual is an issue? And the second use of THE. "the gay people"? WTF dude. Do you say the same about mexicans? Blacks? asians? Any other race? In this instance I'm equating race with another minority group of PEOPLE.
Does not Jesus teach love of fellow man? THE religious always pull the old testament card when Jesus' death wiped out all that SHIT. Was not Jesus the embodiment of THE NEW testament?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
2.to note or observe a difference; distinguish accurately.........
I don't agree with the gay issue and never have,I don't think gay people are any different than anybody else..till they go to bed but hay didn't columbus's crew have relations with sheep ? BAAAAAAAAAD sailor !
all joking aside if you guys want to think I am a bigot or I discriminate because I don't aprove or in anyway agree with the gay issue.....cool but you should be a little careful of how loosley you use your words because thay can and will come right back at you from time to time
Godfather.
One thing I like about you, even though you disagree, at the end of the day it's "well, it's their lives, they're people too".
thanks man, we are all just trying to survive right.
If there is an option to opt out, I guess I could live with it. I personally feel sex should not be taught at school. There dropping sport activities yet they add this?
It is a travesty that some feel religion, morality or family values are Nonsensical.
Why do I think religion is nonsensical?
For starters, I don't think it's possible for a guy to live inside a whale... Or collect two of every species, or a snake to talk, etc...
Morality? Who are you to say you're on some sort of moral high ground because you pray? People are moral based on what they do and how they act, not how they pray or what they believe.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
geeee Micky how about a little cheese with that whine bro, have you ever read anything posted by me that said I hate anybody ?
your rant read kinda like a wild off the wall spew of anger and words that did not address my ISSUE's or my feelings on the gay issue......WTF DUDE ?
well it was Friday night maybe you had a few beers and misunderstood what I had posted and I NEVER said that the sin's of others were or are worse than mine and whats up with race statement ? ...ez bro that stuff is bad for yer liver
So kids will get educated on all the great pioneers such as Elton John and Freddie Mercury?
Well and THAT is the real problem.
For all the whining about "just teach history" that I'm hearing from the right, what they mean is "just keep teaching us that all the great people were white and omit anything that makes them different."
I grew up thinking that black people were the descendants of slaves. Not kings and queens and great warriors and the designers and builders of the pyramids.
I grew up thinking that gay people were funny old men like Paul Lynde or Charles Nelson Riley or Liberace. It never occurred to me they were also great thinkers like Plato or Michallangelo or Leonardo Divinci. They were leaders like Susan B Anthony, Harvey Milk and (probably) Abraham Lincoln.
They could be great warriors. You know that the movie 300 is about a gay army that was real, right?
Might have been nice to know that I could grow up not just to be Elton John or Freddie Mercury but I could be anything.
come man you didn't laugh just a little ?
really I have no idea if it's a choice or not I've never had the urge to sleep with another man.
Godfather.
Oh yeah? Well two hours, a bottle of Jack and some ...Old Gladiator movies we'll see.
OHHHH shit well brother remind me not to drink with you.
OOOOHHHH CRAP THAT WAS FUNNY !!!! go back to stand up brother you have a tallent there
Old Gladiator movies ...ohooo crap thas funny shit !!!!
If there is an option to opt out, I guess I could live with it. I personally feel sex should not be taught at school. There dropping sport activities yet they add this?
It is a travesty that some feel religion, morality or family values are Nonsensical.
UGH.
Double-UGH.
Teaching about gay historical figures is not "teaching sex."
When you mention that George Washington was married to Martha... is that "teaching sex" or is it just teaching history... teaching not just accomplishments but teaching about the people themselves?
Is teaching that Susan B Anthony was a great leader in the fight of women's suffrage turned into a lesson on sex if we also let it be known she was a lesbian? Does teaching about the political climate in the 50s and 60s lose it's real meaning if we hide that J Edgar Hoover was gay? I mean.. he was a rotten person but his sexual orientation was, sadly, a driving force of who he was.
And most of the gay people I know are ten times more moral than a lot of straight people I could name. Do you think that gay people aren't "moral?" Do you think gay people have no "family values?"
Because I'll tell you this... my gay friends who are married and have adopted children or children from previous marriages or surrogate mothers or sperm donors... They sure seem to value their families.
And no... there is no "opt out." You can't selectively pick and choose what your kid learns in school. I'm not sure why you'd want your kids to be taught that gay people haven't made any contributions to the world. Because they have.
I dont even know what this means other than public appeasement. Have our history books excluded gay historical figures? Or is it that important to know the sexual orientation of them?
I'll tell you this...
Gay people have historically had their sexual orientations white-washed away. Straight people have had theirs celebrated.
Go read the obituaries... straight people die and there's a long list of the "wife and children and families" they left behind. Gay people die and their partners of 50 years aren't mentioned and the only thing talked about are their jobs.
Read a history book. Plenty of mentions of Martha Washington and Jackie Kennedy and lots of people whose main contribution was being married to a political figure. Gay people... well.... they just have a "don't ask don't tell" policy in the history books.
Let's bring it more recent.
United Flight 93. The one where the passengers took over the plane and crashed it before terrorists could use it as a missile to take out the white house.
We all heard over and over again about Todd Beener, the straight guy who said "Let's Roll" at the end of a phone conversation with his wife.
But for some reason, the news reports failed to mention that the OTHER guy, Mark Bingham who actually lead the group to try to regain control of the plane... he was gay.... ex-military. An athlete. And a hero.
And if there's one thing we don't want in America... it's a gay hero. We only want
Yeah... the movie "United 93" has no problem making a big deal about the personal lives of the straight people on the flight. But there's ZERO mention of Bingham's husband and son WHO WERE THERE ON THE PLANE WITH HIM.
So yeah... history goes out of it's way to celebrate the family and personal lives of straight people and omit the same aspects of gay people's lives.
If there is an option to opt out, I guess I could live with it. I personally feel sex should not be taught at school. There dropping sport activities yet they add this?
It is a travesty that some feel religion, morality or family values are Nonsensical.
UGH.
Double-UGH.
Teaching about gay historical figures is not "teaching sex."
When you mention that George Washington was married to Martha... is that "teaching sex" or is it just teaching history... teaching not just accomplishments but teaching about the people themselves?
Is teaching that Susan B Anthony was a great leader in the fight of women's suffrage turned into a lesson on sex if we also let it be known she was a lesbian? Does teaching about the political climate in the 50s and 60s lose it's real meaning if we hide that J Edgar Hoover was gay? I mean.. he was a rotten person but his sexual orientation was, sadly, a driving force of who he was.
That's kind of what I'm saying. It depends on the context.
But that being said, I do not see the point of saying Susan B. Anthony was a lesbian or J Edgar Hoover was gay. Why should their sexual choices be anyone's business? Maybe we should teach that Abraham Lincoln had a foot fetish or Ben Franklin liked to wear women's clothes, too. There just isn't any valid reason to do it in school. If someone wants to learn about those things, go do the research.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
But that being said, I do not see the point of saying Susan B. Anthony was a lesbian or J Edgar Hoover was gay. Why should their sexual choices be anyone's business? Maybe we should teach that Abraham Lincoln had a foot fetish or Ben Franklin liked to wear women's clothes, too. There just isn't any valid reason to do it in school. If someone wants to learn about those things, go do the research.
Do you have ANY idea how obnoxiously offensive what you just wrote was?
First... being gay is not a "sexual choice" at all. It's just my sexual orientation. I didn't "choose" anything. The "choice" myth is just pushed by the people who want to push the idea that gay kids deserve to be bullied to death... that gay people deserve the discrimination that we get... since we "chose" it.
Second... being gay isn't some freaky fetish or perversion. comparing being gay to having a foot fetish or being a cross-dresser is about as offensive as saying that giving my husband and I equal marriage rights will lead to straight people fucking their dogs.
Finally... a school is a place of learning. You don't let kids only learn what they "want to learn about."
And...
Why do we have to know that George Washington was straight? Who's business is it who he was screwing? Do we have to know the details of his sex life? Why is it valid to have to only read books with straight characters in english class? Why is it valid that I have to act like being straight is so freaking "normal" and then pretending that being gay is some dark, dirty secret that is best kept?
And... do you call your mother "that woman my father has sex with?"
When people are discriminated against for being black, Latino, gay, women, or anything else, going out of one's way to ignore their accomplishments and contributions to society, science, etc., is a tacit way of perpetuating the idea that these people should be marginalized and any contributions they made minimized or discredited. Alan Turing was gay and he is also considered to be the father of computer science and artificial intelligence. So, in other words, a gay man is largely responsible for the technological boom that drives much of what we call modern society. It's important people know this, otherwise the assumption is that some straight person did this, better allowing people to keep their prejudices and perpetuate them out of ignorance. Go California!
Do you have ANY idea how obnoxiously offensive what you just wrote was?
First... being gay is not a "sexual choice" at all. It's just my sexual orientation. I didn't "choose" anything. The "choice" myth is just pushed by the people who want to push the idea that gay kids deserve to be bullied to death... that gay people deserve the discrimination that we get... since we "chose" it.
Second... being gay isn't some freaky fetish or perversion. comparing being gay to having a foot fetish or being a cross-dresser is about as offensive as saying that giving my husband and I equal marriage rights will lead to straight people fucking their dogs.
Finally... a school is a place of learning. You don't let kids only learn what they "want to learn about."
And...
Why do we have to know that George Washington was straight? Who's business is it who he was screwing? Do we have to know the details of his sex life? Why is it valid to have to only read books with straight characters in english class? Why is it valid that I have to act like being straight is so freaking "normal" and then pretending that being gay is some dark, dirty secret that is best kept?
And... do you call your mother "that woman my father has sex with?"
First, there is no denying that choice plays some role in all sex (unless the person is being raped).
Second, I didn't compare being gay to a fetish or a perversion. You "chose" to view it that way. What I was saying is I don't think people's sexual habits (is that better?) - REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY ARE - shouldn't need to be mentioned in the public schools.
Finally, I never said that we should only let them learn what they want to learn. Not sure where you made that up.
The last part of your post says exactly what I was trying to say, so maybe there's more common ground here than you think.
And I do not call my mother the person that my father has sex with. That's the EXACT point I was trying to make. We don't need to discuss that sort of thing in the schools.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
One of the reasons that I know this bill should be a national one...
When the conservatives talk about it, they let it be known that all they know about gay people is that they have freaky sex and they're flambouyant rock singers.
Gay characters in TV and movies are only there to either laugh at or cry for. We're either the crazy gay uncle who acts like Mrs. Roper or we're the poor depressed guy who either kills himself, gets murdered or dies of HIV.
On TV reality shows, we're the "Sassy Gay Friend" who teaches women how to accessorize, teaches men how to dress and trim their nose hair and teaches you all how to properly contrast your seat covers with your wall paper and lamps.
Would be nice to have learned that Sir Isaac Newton, father of physics was gay. Or the guy who painted the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Or the guy who pained the Mona Lisa. Or carved David.
Frances Bacon, father of the scientific method, which is fundamental to natural philosophy and the man who brought us the idea of "Utopia."
You think it would make learning Catholic history to know that Pope Julius III was gay? How about Pope John XII? He was too.
12th century English king Richard The Lionhearted? Alexander The Great? Really?
Who knew that gay people could be "Great" or "Lion hearted?" Thought they were all weak and girly?
First, there is no denying that choice plays some role in all sex (unless the person is being raped).
Are you having sex right now? Are you still straight? Do you think that the only thing that makes me gay is... how I have sex?
"Gay" isn't something that I do.
It's something that I am.
Second, I didn't compare being gay to a fetish or a perversion.
Yes. You did. That's exactly what you did.
What I was saying is I don't think people's sexual habits (is that better?)
No. It's almost worse. You make it sound like being gay is some weird addiction like smoking or saying "like" too much.
- REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY ARE - shouldn't need to be mentioned in the public schools.
But they are. We go out of our way to celebrate heterosexuality as an ideal. Kindergarten plays feature the "mommy bear and the daddy bear and the baby bear." Music Class has kids singing songs about "My Darling Clementine" and we only mention a historical figure's sexual orientation if they were straight.
Finally, I never said that we should only let them learn what they want to learn. Not sure where you made that up.
I didn't make it up. You said that. Almost word for word. No point in back-peddling now.
The last part of your post says exactly what I was trying to say, so maybe there's more common ground here than you think.
And I do not call my mother the person that my father has sex with. That's the EXACT point I was trying to make. We don't need to discuss that sort of thing in the schools.
I would like to think that you'd view your parent's relationship as more than just a sexual one. Marriage and human relationships are built on more than just sex or - and take it from me, a guy who's been married for 19 years - marriages would pretty much end 18 months after they start.
And here is why we won't be in agreement in this debate. I do not think of sex as something that I am, but rather something that I choose to do or not do.
And further, I believe that something is not really anybody else's business and shouldn't be shouted from the rooftops.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Comments
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I'd pay attention. I don't know if i would be able to leave class when the bell rang... might need a few minutes.
maaan brother just about your whole post (except some use religion or morality or family values or whatever other nonsensical excuse to discriminate.) is a example of what you call discrimination I'm not nailing on you I'm just saying the word discriminate seems to have a wide circle of meaning and it look like it comes right back to the accuser.
Godfather.
agreed.
Godfather.
And this is from the dictionary:
dis·crim·i·nate
1.to make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs rather than according to actual merit; show partiality
2.to note or observe a difference; distinguish accurately
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
If there is an option to opt out, I guess I could live with it. I personally feel sex should not be taught at school. There dropping sport activities yet they add this?
It is a travesty that some feel religion, morality or family values are Nonsensical.
Also, my comments about religion, morality and family values was meant specifically in the line of thought that it is used as an excuse to discriminate against people. I have one value which I think everyone could and should do, be a decent human being and treat each other fairly and equally. Doesn't seem like some people care to do that simply because of secondary reasons which they themselves justify. And in the end of the day, those secondary reasons still don't justify or equate to a good reason. If I said I hate some minority group and they shouldn't be afforded the same rights as the rest of society, just because I find it a valid opinion, doesn't make it ok nor makes it right or just...and yes, even if your religion tells you otherwise. Last I recall, most morally decent people treat everyone the same, and most religions tell their followers to be kind and decent and let god judge, not humans.. but I guess that's not applicable? Discrimination is not a decent moral code or value to be adhering too and if you find yourself saying it is, perhaps you should reconsider your morals, follow the basic tenets of your religion instead of using them to ostracize people in society.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I don't really think it's appropriate to teach something like: "Columbus landed in the West in 1492,and he also enjoyed sexual relations with his first mate" is just plain stupid and wrong.
If it's in the context of "In 2011, New York voted to legalize gay marriage." Then I don't have a problem with it.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I think sometimes folks get frightened that any reference to gay education means teaching kids to be gay. Does teaching about slavery make us want to be servants? I'm missing something from this argument.
I'm always amazed by how far the rest of the country is behind the northeast at times. Even a state like California which is supposed to be so inclusive. To me, having lived my whole live here, this is a yawn issue. But I guess some places still need to catch up. Would just be better if they just did it instead of making it a political issue all the time.
I don't agree with the gay issue and never have,I don't think gay people are any different than anybody else..till they go to bed but hay didn't columbus's crew have relations with sheep ? BAAAAAAAAAD sailor !
all joking aside if you guys want to think I am a bigot or I discriminate because I don't aprove or in anyway agree with the gay issue.....cool but you should be a little careful of how loosley you use your words because thay can and will come right back at you from time to time
Godfather.
Does not Jesus teach love of fellow man? THE religious always pull the old testament card when Jesus' death wiped out all that SHIT. Was not Jesus the embodiment of THE NEW testament?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
thanks man, we are all just trying to survive right.
Godfather.
For starters, I don't think it's possible for a guy to live inside a whale... Or collect two of every species, or a snake to talk, etc...
Morality? Who are you to say you're on some sort of moral high ground because you pray? People are moral based on what they do and how they act, not how they pray or what they believe.
your rant read kinda like a wild off the wall spew of anger and words that did not address my ISSUE's or my feelings on the gay issue......WTF DUDE ?
well it was Friday night maybe you had a few beers and misunderstood what I had posted and I NEVER said that the sin's of others were or are worse than mine and whats up with race statement ? ...ez bro that stuff is bad for yer liver
Godfather.
Well and THAT is the real problem.
For all the whining about "just teach history" that I'm hearing from the right, what they mean is "just keep teaching us that all the great people were white and omit anything that makes them different."
I grew up thinking that black people were the descendants of slaves. Not kings and queens and great warriors and the designers and builders of the pyramids.
I grew up thinking that gay people were funny old men like Paul Lynde or Charles Nelson Riley or Liberace. It never occurred to me they were also great thinkers like Plato or Michallangelo or Leonardo Divinci. They were leaders like Susan B Anthony, Harvey Milk and (probably) Abraham Lincoln.
They could be great warriors. You know that the movie 300 is about a gay army that was real, right?
Might have been nice to know that I could grow up not just to be Elton John or Freddie Mercury but I could be anything.
Oh yeah? Well two hours, a bottle of Jack and some Old Gladiator movies... we'll see.
Um... yeah.. that's kinda the textbook definition of "discrimination" to pre-judge people based on a certain criteria.
OOOOHHHH CRAP THAT WAS FUNNY !!!! go back to stand up brother you have a tallent there
Old Gladiator movies ...ohooo crap thas funny shit !!!!
Godfather.
UGH.
Double-UGH.
Teaching about gay historical figures is not "teaching sex."
When you mention that George Washington was married to Martha... is that "teaching sex" or is it just teaching history... teaching not just accomplishments but teaching about the people themselves?
Is teaching that Susan B Anthony was a great leader in the fight of women's suffrage turned into a lesson on sex if we also let it be known she was a lesbian? Does teaching about the political climate in the 50s and 60s lose it's real meaning if we hide that J Edgar Hoover was gay? I mean.. he was a rotten person but his sexual orientation was, sadly, a driving force of who he was.
And most of the gay people I know are ten times more moral than a lot of straight people I could name. Do you think that gay people aren't "moral?" Do you think gay people have no "family values?"
Because I'll tell you this... my gay friends who are married and have adopted children or children from previous marriages or surrogate mothers or sperm donors... They sure seem to value their families.
And no... there is no "opt out." You can't selectively pick and choose what your kid learns in school. I'm not sure why you'd want your kids to be taught that gay people haven't made any contributions to the world. Because they have.
I'll tell you this...
Gay people have historically had their sexual orientations white-washed away. Straight people have had theirs celebrated.
Go read the obituaries... straight people die and there's a long list of the "wife and children and families" they left behind. Gay people die and their partners of 50 years aren't mentioned and the only thing talked about are their jobs.
Read a history book. Plenty of mentions of Martha Washington and Jackie Kennedy and lots of people whose main contribution was being married to a political figure. Gay people... well.... they just have a "don't ask don't tell" policy in the history books.
Let's bring it more recent.
United Flight 93. The one where the passengers took over the plane and crashed it before terrorists could use it as a missile to take out the white house.
We all heard over and over again about Todd Beener, the straight guy who said "Let's Roll" at the end of a phone conversation with his wife.
But for some reason, the news reports failed to mention that the OTHER guy, Mark Bingham who actually lead the group to try to regain control of the plane... he was gay.... ex-military. An athlete. And a hero.
And if there's one thing we don't want in America... it's a gay hero. We only want
Yeah... the movie "United 93" has no problem making a big deal about the personal lives of the straight people on the flight. But there's ZERO mention of Bingham's husband and son WHO WERE THERE ON THE PLANE WITH HIM.
So yeah... history goes out of it's way to celebrate the family and personal lives of straight people and omit the same aspects of gay people's lives.
That's kind of what I'm saying. It depends on the context.
But that being said, I do not see the point of saying Susan B. Anthony was a lesbian or J Edgar Hoover was gay. Why should their sexual choices be anyone's business? Maybe we should teach that Abraham Lincoln had a foot fetish or Ben Franklin liked to wear women's clothes, too. There just isn't any valid reason to do it in school. If someone wants to learn about those things, go do the research.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Do you have ANY idea how obnoxiously offensive what you just wrote was?
First... being gay is not a "sexual choice" at all. It's just my sexual orientation. I didn't "choose" anything. The "choice" myth is just pushed by the people who want to push the idea that gay kids deserve to be bullied to death... that gay people deserve the discrimination that we get... since we "chose" it.
Second... being gay isn't some freaky fetish or perversion. comparing being gay to having a foot fetish or being a cross-dresser is about as offensive as saying that giving my husband and I equal marriage rights will lead to straight people fucking their dogs.
Finally... a school is a place of learning. You don't let kids only learn what they "want to learn about."
And...
Why do we have to know that George Washington was straight? Who's business is it who he was screwing? Do we have to know the details of his sex life? Why is it valid to have to only read books with straight characters in english class? Why is it valid that I have to act like being straight is so freaking "normal" and then pretending that being gay is some dark, dirty secret that is best kept?
And... do you call your mother "that woman my father has sex with?"
First, there is no denying that choice plays some role in all sex (unless the person is being raped).
Second, I didn't compare being gay to a fetish or a perversion. You "chose" to view it that way. What I was saying is I don't think people's sexual habits (is that better?) - REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY ARE - shouldn't need to be mentioned in the public schools.
Finally, I never said that we should only let them learn what they want to learn. Not sure where you made that up.
The last part of your post says exactly what I was trying to say, so maybe there's more common ground here than you think.
And I do not call my mother the person that my father has sex with. That's the EXACT point I was trying to make. We don't need to discuss that sort of thing in the schools.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
When the conservatives talk about it, they let it be known that all they know about gay people is that they have freaky sex and they're flambouyant rock singers.
Gay characters in TV and movies are only there to either laugh at or cry for. We're either the crazy gay uncle who acts like Mrs. Roper or we're the poor depressed guy who either kills himself, gets murdered or dies of HIV.
On TV reality shows, we're the "Sassy Gay Friend" who teaches women how to accessorize, teaches men how to dress and trim their nose hair and teaches you all how to properly contrast your seat covers with your wall paper and lamps.
Would be nice to have learned that Sir Isaac Newton, father of physics was gay. Or the guy who painted the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Or the guy who pained the Mona Lisa. Or carved David.
Frances Bacon, father of the scientific method, which is fundamental to natural philosophy and the man who brought us the idea of "Utopia."
You think it would make learning Catholic history to know that Pope Julius III was gay? How about Pope John XII? He was too.
12th century English king Richard The Lionhearted? Alexander The Great? Really?
Who knew that gay people could be "Great" or "Lion hearted?" Thought they were all weak and girly?
Are you having sex right now? Are you still straight? Do you think that the only thing that makes me gay is... how I have sex?
"Gay" isn't something that I do.
It's something that I am.
Yes. You did. That's exactly what you did.
No. It's almost worse. You make it sound like being gay is some weird addiction like smoking or saying "like" too much.
But they are. We go out of our way to celebrate heterosexuality as an ideal. Kindergarten plays feature the "mommy bear and the daddy bear and the baby bear." Music Class has kids singing songs about "My Darling Clementine" and we only mention a historical figure's sexual orientation if they were straight.
I didn't make it up. You said that. Almost word for word. No point in back-peddling now.
I would like to think that you'd view your parent's relationship as more than just a sexual one. Marriage and human relationships are built on more than just sex or - and take it from me, a guy who's been married for 19 years - marriages would pretty much end 18 months after they start.
And here is why we won't be in agreement in this debate. I do not think of sex as something that I am, but rather something that I choose to do or not do.
And further, I believe that something is not really anybody else's business and shouldn't be shouted from the rooftops.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.