Red, if you were Jewish you would probably feel differently. With regard to the safety of the procedure, the "mohel" who performs the rite is trained in the necessary surgical techniques, which includes ensuring the sterility of his tools. It has also become well accepted to use a local anaesthetic when performing circumcision.
I get that people here wouldn't choose to circumcise their own kids, but I fail to understand the seeming lack of tolerance and understanding for the religious practice of others (a practice that causes no lasting harm to anyone involved).
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Red, if you were Jewish you would probably feel differently. With regard to the safety of the procedure, the "mohel" who performs the rite is trained in the necessary surgical techniques, which includes ensuring the sterility of his tools. It has also become well accepted to use a local anaesthetic when performing circumcision.
I get that people here wouldn't choose to circumcise their own kids, but I fail to understand the seeming lack of tolerance and understanding for the religious practice of others (a practice that causes no lasting harm to anyone involved).
I don't think 'we' are being untolerant towards a religious practice (well, I'm not) so please let's not turn this thread into an anti-semitic/anti-religion, etc. one. What I am not tolerant to is infant genital mutilation, whoever does it. And YES, there is lasting harm - as I said before the foreskin is an erogenous zone and the lack of one reduces the sexual experience of the circumcised male. Tell me that's not lasting harm. Now should an adult male decide to have bits cut off fully understanding the consequences, that's fine.
And whilst you say the mohel uses sterile tools, I doubt whether the environment itself (including all other aspects of cleansiness/sterility required for surgery) is the most suitable. Also, a topical anesthetic applied on the skin (ie not injected) doesn't help much when one is slicing into flesh which is extremely sensitive.
2) You're right, a baby can't speak for itself, which is exactly why the parents are empowered to make decisions on the child's behalf. You are trying to frame the issue as an infringement on the child's rights, except that the parents speak for their child, so that if circumcision is performed on the parents' wishes no rights have been violated.
If parents are making the decision of the "child's behalf" to cut off part of his body, they're not very good parents.
Hiding behind religious tradition is pretty weak.
In some religions, women are forced to marry their rapists. Do you also defend that?
Red, how is this not about intolerance towards religion. That's exactly what this is about. You are militating for a legal ban on an absolutely central religious rite. Were the government to actually ban circumcision it would be unquestionably be engaged in religious persecution.
As for harm, I'm circumcised and I enjoy sex quite thoroughly, thank you very much.
No, I do not defend forcing women to marry their rapists. I do not blindly defend every element of religion. This particular rite, however, I happen to know from personal experience to be utterly harmless (as opposed to the rape example you gave). I am not psychologically scarred by my circumcision, my dick works just fine, sex is still awesome, I didn't have any sort of complications related to the procedure (as virtually all infants who undergo circumcision also fail to have), and I am secure in the knowledge that my parents did not break with our faith, and that I am a citizen of a country that actually respects religious freedom.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Well I know of plenty of people who feel they were scarred and violated by circumcision.
One of my friends was circumcised at the age of 11 when his mother married a jewish man... he said he begged them not to do it.
Good for you if you think sex with all those women is great... clearly you're a very religious guy. :roll:
I still this it's barbaric and should be illegal.
I'm all for religious freedom and nobody is telling you what to believe. We're just saying to not cut parts of your baby off until he gives permission and also believes your religion. Because until then, I think it's disgusting.
I get that people here wouldn't choose to circumcise their own kids, but I fail to understand the seeming lack of tolerance and understanding for the religious practice of others (a practice that causes no lasting harm to anyone involved).
Well, just because it's part of a religion doesn't make it right.
A good friend of my mom's (when she was a young teenager) sustained a head injury that required a blood transfusion. Unluckily for her, her family was JW... So they just let her die.
When the religion has rules that hurt or harm, or degrade, someone (I mean, any religion in general) then I don't see any need to be tolerant of those practices.
Well I know of plenty of people who feel they were scarred and violated by circumcision.
One of my friends was circumcised at the age of 11 when his mother married a jewish man... he said he begged them not to do it.
Ohhhh my god.
That is one of my HUGEST peeves, when women cater to the boyfriend and fail to protect their own children. How could you POSSIBLY put someone like that before your own children?!!!
I get that people here wouldn't choose to circumcise their own kids, but I fail to understand the seeming lack of tolerance and understanding for the religious practice of others (a practice that causes no lasting harm to anyone involved).
Well, just because it's part of a religion doesn't make it right.
A good friend of my mom's (when she was a young teenager) sustained a head injury that required a blood transfusion. Unluckily for her, her family was JW... So they just let her die.
When the religion has rules that hurt or harm, or degrade, someone (I mean, any religion in general) then I don't see any need to be tolerant of those practices.
I get that people here wouldn't choose to circumcise their own kids, but I fail to understand the seeming lack of tolerance and understanding for the religious practice of others (a practice that causes no lasting harm to anyone involved).
Well, just because it's part of a religion doesn't make it right.
A good friend of my mom's (when she was a young teenager) sustained a head injury that required a blood transfusion. Unluckily for her, her family was JW... So they just let her die.
When the religion has rules that hurt or harm, or degrade, someone (I mean, any religion in general) then I don't see any need to be tolerant of those practices.
...
As for where the ritual comes from, in the Bible God tells Abraham to circumcise himself and all the males of his household as a symbol of the covenant between them. Think of it in terms of signing a contract in blood, with the added symbolism that God has promised to make Abraham the father of a great nation, and the sign of this covenant is "inscribed" on the very organ that will bring this about.
i love this! lop off your foreskin and ill make you a great man.`:roll:
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Circumcision is an unfortunate tradition. It should end. It is genital mutilation.
I would say at least 80% of the males that I know... who know we chose to NOT circumcise my son... have given me shit about it as though I (we) really made a poor decision.
While my OB/GYN totally would have done the procedure in the hospital.., he was 100% behind our choice not to... as soon as his pediatrician got there (new dr. as he was my first child) she had me sobbing in the hospital that I made the wrong decision.
She then continued to pressure us into going ahead with the procedure while he was a very young infant... i agreed to go for a pediatric urology eval with a highly respected pediatric urology group practice in NYC.... well... i ended up with a younger doctor who told me my son was fine and that no there really isn't any reason to do it if we don't want to... etc....
when my son's pediatrician saw/heard report
1. she misrepresented the medical findings to me
2. she told me that wasn't the doctor she wanted me to see at this practice.
She was ABSOLUTELY going with her beliefs that were IMO based in her religion and her traditions... and those of most of her clients.
Needless to say... WE STOPPED GOING TO HER! :evil:
Yeah, the pro-circumcizion people will tell you lie after lie after lie..
"it causes penis cancer if you don't"
"it causes vaginal infections"
"it's cleaner"
"you don't need it"
"women will think his penis is disgusting."
"he won't stop masturbating."
They don't tell you that hospitals sell the skin and make a lot of money for it. Anyone who follows a religion that requires genital mutilation needs to either change religions or just not have kids.
Red, how is this not about intolerance towards religion. That's exactly what this is about. You are militating for a legal ban on an absolutely central religious rite. Were the government to actually ban circumcision it would be unquestionably be engaged in religious persecution. .
You have made it about religious intolerance (and therefore people are now focusing on the 'jewish' thing). I am talking about the barbaric practice of genital mutilation. A lot of americans (whatever religion or non-religion) are circumcised - would that then become persecution of americans as a whole? If you want to go the 'jewish' route - I know there are a growing number of jewish males who are not circumcised and will not circumcise their sons. And did I ever once mention the word 'ban'? But as I said and said again, it's not about religion but about a barbaric practice.
As for harm, I'm circumcised and I enjoy sex quite thoroughly, thank you very much.....
my dick works just fine, sex is still awesome,.
Of course a circumcised male will enjoy sex, but try to think about how it could have been with those thousands of extra fine touch receptors and nerve endings and that 'gliding' action inside .....
Circumcision is an unfortunate tradition. It should end. It is genital mutilation.
I would say at least 80% of the males that I know... who know we chose to NOT circumcise my son... have given me shit about it as though I (we) really made a poor decision.
While my OB/GYN totally would have done the procedure in the hospital.., he was 100% behind our choice not to... as soon as his pediatrician got there (new dr. as he was my first child) she had me sobbing in the hospital that I made the wrong decision.
She then continued to pressure us into going ahead with the procedure while he was a very young infant... i agreed to go for a pediatric urology eval with a highly respected pediatric urology group practice in NYC.... well... i ended up with a younger doctor who told me my son was fine and that no there really isn't any reason to do it if we don't want to... etc....
when my son's pediatrician saw/heard report
1. she misrepresented the medical findings to me
2. she told me that wasn't the doctor she wanted me to see at this practice.
She was ABSOLUTELY going with her beliefs that were IMO based in her religion and her traditions... and those of most of her clients.
Needless to say... WE STOPPED GOING TO HER! :evil:
Your pediatrician was Jewish?
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
No Red, I'm just being honest about the implications of what is being suggested here. Just because the legal action you are pushing for wouldn't specifically target Jews it would nonetheless amount to a ban on one of Judaism's most central rites (again, the ceremony can only be postponed due to medical necessity). If their was no religious exemption to the restriction you are talking about then the result would be that the government would in affect be banning Jews from the free practice of their religion, WHICH IS THE DEFINITION OF RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
And while we're on the topic...straight from the website of the World Health Organization:
"There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%. Three randomized controlled trials have shown that male circumcision provided by well trained health professionals in properly equipped settings is safe. WHO/UNAIDS recommendations emphasize that male circumcision should be considered an efficacious intervention for HIV prevention in countries and regions with heterosexual epidemics, high HIV and low male circumcision prevalence."
But don't listen to the WHO, they are probably just more of those lying circumcision enthusiasts craftily pushing their circumcision agenda, or maybe they're nefarious Jews (or Muslims) unethically trying to impose their religious practices on unsuspecting Africans.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
No Red, I'm just being honest about the implications of what is being suggested here. Just because the legal action you are pushing for wouldn't specifically target Jews it would nonetheless amount to a ban on one of Judaism's most central rites (again, the ceremony can only be postponed due to medical necessity). If their was no religious exemption to the restriction you are talking about then the result would be that the government would in affect be banning Jews from the free practice of their religion, WHICH IS THE DEFINITION OF RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION.
I understand that a child born to a jewish mother is a jew, whether circumcised or not. Moses was not circumcised... anything happen to him? From some 'progressive' (?) jews that I have had conversations with, it would seem that there have been many discussions about this 'must' from a religious point of view (and seeing the number of jews that actually think the torah is the word of god). As far as I understand it, there are also bits in the 'word' that actually contradicts this. For some/most jews (and muslims for whom it is definitely tradition and not religion) it is a tradition, something one just goes through... I know you are going to contradict me on this.
Again, a ban may cover certain religious/traditional practices but would not be AIMED/TARGETED at them specifically. Any mutilation of a minor's body is wrong. What if a cultural/social mutilation would be to cut off the little finger of a baby? Would that be acceptable? After all, one has many more fingers and not having the lil' pinky wouldn't be a real loss... And female circumcision... is this OK? After all, it's a religious/traditional/social/cultural rite as well...
And how many times do I have to say that I have not even mentioned banning, let alone pushing for legal action?
Anyway, I've said my bit... YOU want to turn it into an anti jewish thread, I'm leaving it at condemning genital mutilation as a barbaric act forced upon an infant/minor. I will not be drawn into an 'attacking the jews' debate.
I'm not saying that you're maliciously attacking Jews. I'm saying that you aren't clearly thinking through the implications of what you are arguing for. You aren't talking about a ban?! You're arguing that circumcision should be legally prohibited until a person is of the age to choose the procedure for himself. You ignore the fact that the Jewish religious rite requires that the procedure be performed in infancy. It cannot simply be put off until the child is 18. Therefore, what you are arguing for is IN AFFECT a ban on the Jewish religious rite of circumcision, even if it is not explicitly formulated as such.
And yes, I'm going to contradict you. First, if you read your bible, God actually does insist that Moses circumcise himself. As for the "progressive" Jews you mention, yes, there are Jews that reject all sorts of Jewish practices. They do so based on their own prioritization of NON-JEWISH beliefs and values over Jewish beliefs and values. That's perfectly fine as a matter of personal choice, but it's ridiculous when they start trying to pretend that the choice they made based on NON-JEWISH motivations is actually a representation of authentic Jewish practice.
Very simply, Jewish law REQUIRES that male infants be circumcised eight days after birth. This is one of the most serious requirements in Jewish law. Failure to circumcise one's son carries the punishment of Kareit, which is reserved for the absolutely most serious religious offenses (essentially God cuts you out of the covenant. Nobody actually does something to you, but that's because the offense is considered so serious that only God can properly deal with it). I personally don't really care what an individual chooses to do in this regard, but it's crazy to pretend that there is any question regarding the centrality of circumcision within Jewish practice.
We don't call it "The Word." Christians call it "The Word." And no, as far as I know the bible does not contain any sort of contradiction on this issue (the New Testament is another matter, but again, we're talking about Jews, so the the New Testament ("The Word," if you will) doesn't factor in).
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
You aren't talking about a ban?! You're arguing that circumcision should be legally prohibited until a person is of the age to choose the procedure for himself. .
Where did I say that? I say I condemn this barbaric act forced upon infants/minors by adults.
We don't call it "The Word." Christians call it "The Word." And no, as far as I know the bible does not contain any sort of contradiction on this issue (the New Testament is another matter, but again, we're talking about Jews, so the the New Testament ("The Word," if you will) doesn't factor in).
I don't really call it anything but a nice lil' book of tales.
And yes, I'm going to contradict you. First, if you read your bible, God actually does insist that Moses circumcise himself. As for the "progressive" Jews you mention, yes, there are Jews that reject all sorts of Jewish practices. They do so based on their own prioritization of NON-JEWISH beliefs and values over Jewish beliefs and values. That's perfectly fine as a matter of personal choice, but it's ridiculous when they start trying to pretend that the choice they made based on NON-JEWISH motivations is actually a representation of authentic Jewish practice. .
I guess my many, many, long hours for weeks on end discussions/debates with various Rabbis and learned jews was just a bunch of crock then?
Hell... I'm doing what I said I wouldn't... get into an 'attacking jews' debate (even if I'm not doing it maliciously )
So... back to body mutilation of minors for social/traditional/religious rite/whatever practice.... does anyone find female circumcision quite acceptable? Or removing another perfectly healthy, functioning part of the body for the same reasons acceptable?
Very simply, Jewish law REQUIRES that male infants be circumcised eight days after birth. This is one of the most serious requirements in Jewish law. Failure to circumcise one's son carries the punishment of Kareit, which is reserved for the absolutely most serious religious offenses (essentially God cuts you out of the covenant. Nobody actually does something to you, but that's because the offense is considered so serious that only God can properly deal with it). I personally don't really care what an individual chooses to do in this regard, but it's crazy to pretend that there is any question regarding the centrality of circumcision within Jewish practice.
I always try my best not to criticize someone else's religion, but I just can't let this one go...this is amazingly sad to me. I apologize if this offends you but this is ludicrous in my opinion. Another major reason why I can't understand most organized religion.. especially one that tries to instill fear to force parents to participate in genital mutilation..
I do not think it should matter to others what anyone does in thier own homes, be it due to religion or otherwise. Expressing whether we agree or disagree with something very close to another's heart is really just fanning the flames of dispute and making people feel bad about what they beleive is "true" and "right" - on both sides of the discussion.
I might think eating poop is disgusting, bowing to any god is stupid and a waste of time, or that watching porn is degrading to women and supporting it is supporting sexual slavery, or that forcing one's child to be a vegan is both unhealthy and mean...but to outlaw a behavior which is important to someone else based on "moral reasoning" is an attempt to place your own moral code upon someone else.
When something is clearly wrong, the government steps in. (Murder, rape, child abuse, stealing, etc.) So whether circumcision is immoral is the discussion at hand. (Let's not forget that governments, in the past and present, have made immoral things legal and vice versa on thier own basis of faith. E.g. Prohibition, segregation, buying blood diamonds.) But since circumsicion it is part of the Muslim and Jewish moral codes, it falls under religious freedom. Therein lies the rub.
For this reason alone, the courts will not be able to ban it - even if they feel it is reprehensible or even immoral - religious freedom, I think will win over the court. We're not talking about cutting off an entire organ, or causing lasting bodily harm which impinges ones ability to be a fully functioning partner in society, or causing lasting psychological anguish...if the issue is the possible loss of the most extreme heights of extreme sexual pleasure, that's something subjective, which varying people experience differently in the first place.
Rediculous. Not that I'm a big fan of either but what next- are they going to try to ban tattoos and piercings? And by the way, I'm not glueing anything back on.
The difference is (for argument's sake) if you get a tattoo or piercing, you have a choice in the matter.
Not always - my sister-in-law pierced her daughter's ears, and her daughter is only a few months old
And I listen for the voice inside my head... nothing. I'll do this one myself.
As for where the ritual comes from, in the Bible God tells Abraham to circumcise himself and all the males of his household as a symbol of the covenant between them. Think of it in terms of signing a contract in blood, with the added symbolism that God has promised to make Abraham the father of a great nation, and the sign of this covenant is "inscribed" on the very organ that will bring this about.
Thanks for answering my question - I'll be the first to admit that as an atheist I'm no biblical scholar, and I was having a tough time wrapping my head around the link between those two lol
Also, FWIW, my parents (who are catholics) circumcised me when I was born (TMI, sorry), and I don't think it's made any difference to me at all. Hard to say sex would be better uncircumcised because I have no frame of reference, but circumcised sex is still pretty damn awesome.
Again, it clearly wasn't for religious reasons (unless they used to be jewish and just never got around to telling me), so I'm not sure why they chose to do it - but it hasn't adversely affected me in the least.
And I listen for the voice inside my head... nothing. I'll do this one myself.
Circumcision is an unfortunate tradition. It should end. It is genital mutilation.
I would say at least 80% of the males that I know... who know we chose to NOT circumcise my son... have given me shit about it as though I (we) really made a poor decision.
While my OB/GYN totally would have done the procedure in the hospital.., he was 100% behind our choice not to... as soon as his pediatrician got there (new dr. as he was my first child) she had me sobbing in the hospital that I made the wrong decision.
She then continued to pressure us into going ahead with the procedure while he was a very young infant... i agreed to go for a pediatric urology eval with a highly respected pediatric urology group practice in NYC.... well... i ended up with a younger doctor who told me my son was fine and that no there really isn't any reason to do it if we don't want to... etc....
when my son's pediatrician saw/heard report
1. she misrepresented the medical findings to me
2. she told me that wasn't the doctor she wanted me to see at this practice.
She was ABSOLUTELY going with her beliefs that were IMO based in her religion and her traditions... and those of most of her clients.
Needless to say... WE STOPPED GOING TO HER! :evil:
Your pediatrician was Jewish?
Yes. As was the urologist that told me the truth... and the next three pediatricians i have had since then.... (moving... :roll: ) however, she was the only one trying to push her religious mores on to us....
Rediculous. Not that I'm a big fan of either but what next- are they going to try to ban tattoos and piercings? And by the way, I'm not glueing anything back on.
The difference is (for argument's sake) if you get a tattoo or piercing, you have a choice in the matter.
Not always - my sister-in-law pierced her daughter's ears, and her daughter is only a few months old
I haven't had a chance to read back through this entire thread... ... but did piercing one's ears suddenly start get equated to cutting of a piece of your baby's penis?
Not to make a big deal out of it, because like most males I know, I was circumcised as a baby, but it just seems unnatural. The three Abrahamic faiths go against nature in many other ways too. I once read, and I almost don't want to know if it's true, but I read that for a man, sex without foreskin is like sight without color... that with foreskin, there are sensations that a man would otherwise not experience. I know I certainly wouldn't have it chopped off if I still had it today!
I think they should outlaw gay porn, which will do more harm to a young child than a little skin taken off as an infant. Maybe they should outlaw vaginal births, and only perform C-sections. I am sure it must be painful coming down that birth canal. Now about the feeling lost well, maybe thats a good thing because men can't keep control of there penis as it is.
You have to admit a circumcised penis does look sexier than an uncircumcised one.
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
It's simple really. If you don't want your son circumcised, don't do it.
I am a jewish woman & if I get to that place in my life where I have to make that choice I will.
Just what this world needs, another stupid law for people who can't think for themselves.
Thank Goddess I'm Canadian. :-P
Man..... I wish I could put a Pearl Jam pic in here as my siggie!!!! LMFAO!!
Comments
I get that people here wouldn't choose to circumcise their own kids, but I fail to understand the seeming lack of tolerance and understanding for the religious practice of others (a practice that causes no lasting harm to anyone involved).
I don't think 'we' are being untolerant towards a religious practice (well, I'm not) so please let's not turn this thread into an anti-semitic/anti-religion, etc. one. What I am not tolerant to is infant genital mutilation, whoever does it. And YES, there is lasting harm - as I said before the foreskin is an erogenous zone and the lack of one reduces the sexual experience of the circumcised male. Tell me that's not lasting harm. Now should an adult male decide to have bits cut off fully understanding the consequences, that's fine.
And whilst you say the mohel uses sterile tools, I doubt whether the environment itself (including all other aspects of cleansiness/sterility required for surgery) is the most suitable. Also, a topical anesthetic applied on the skin (ie not injected) doesn't help much when one is slicing into flesh which is extremely sensitive.
If parents are making the decision of the "child's behalf" to cut off part of his body, they're not very good parents.
Hiding behind religious tradition is pretty weak.
In some religions, women are forced to marry their rapists. Do you also defend that?
It should be stopped and claiming it to be part of a religious ritual only makes it more ridiculous, not less.
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As for harm, I'm circumcised and I enjoy sex quite thoroughly, thank you very much.
No, I do not defend forcing women to marry their rapists. I do not blindly defend every element of religion. This particular rite, however, I happen to know from personal experience to be utterly harmless (as opposed to the rape example you gave). I am not psychologically scarred by my circumcision, my dick works just fine, sex is still awesome, I didn't have any sort of complications related to the procedure (as virtually all infants who undergo circumcision also fail to have), and I am secure in the knowledge that my parents did not break with our faith, and that I am a citizen of a country that actually respects religious freedom.
One of my friends was circumcised at the age of 11 when his mother married a jewish man... he said he begged them not to do it.
Good for you if you think sex with all those women is great... clearly you're a very religious guy. :roll:
I still this it's barbaric and should be illegal.
I'm all for religious freedom and nobody is telling you what to believe. We're just saying to not cut parts of your baby off until he gives permission and also believes your religion. Because until then, I think it's disgusting.
A good friend of my mom's (when she was a young teenager) sustained a head injury that required a blood transfusion. Unluckily for her, her family was JW... So they just let her die.
When the religion has rules that hurt or harm, or degrade, someone (I mean, any religion in general) then I don't see any need to be tolerant of those practices.
That is one of my HUGEST peeves, when women cater to the boyfriend and fail to protect their own children. How could you POSSIBLY put someone like that before your own children?!!!
Because they were jooish they didn't let her get a blood transfusion?
deets please??
:ugeek:
JW = Jehovah's Witness
i love this! lop off your foreskin and ill make you a great man.`:roll:
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
"With our thoughts we make the world"
I would say at least 80% of the males that I know... who know we chose to NOT circumcise my son... have given me shit about it as though I (we) really made a poor decision.
While my OB/GYN totally would have done the procedure in the hospital.., he was 100% behind our choice not to... as soon as his pediatrician got there (new dr. as he was my first child) she had me sobbing in the hospital that I made the wrong decision.
She then continued to pressure us into going ahead with the procedure while he was a very young infant... i agreed to go for a pediatric urology eval with a highly respected pediatric urology group practice in NYC.... well... i ended up with a younger doctor who told me my son was fine and that no there really isn't any reason to do it if we don't want to... etc....
when my son's pediatrician saw/heard report
1. she misrepresented the medical findings to me
2. she told me that wasn't the doctor she wanted me to see at this practice.
She was ABSOLUTELY going with her beliefs that were IMO based in her religion and her traditions... and those of most of her clients.
Needless to say... WE STOPPED GOING TO HER! :evil:
"it causes penis cancer if you don't"
"it causes vaginal infections"
"it's cleaner"
"you don't need it"
"women will think his penis is disgusting."
"he won't stop masturbating."
They don't tell you that hospitals sell the skin and make a lot of money for it. Anyone who follows a religion that requires genital mutilation needs to either change religions or just not have kids.
Of course a circumcised male will enjoy sex, but try to think about how it could have been with those thousands of extra fine touch receptors and nerve endings and that 'gliding' action inside .....
Your pediatrician was Jewish?
"There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%. Three randomized controlled trials have shown that male circumcision provided by well trained health professionals in properly equipped settings is safe. WHO/UNAIDS recommendations emphasize that male circumcision should be considered an efficacious intervention for HIV prevention in countries and regions with heterosexual epidemics, high HIV and low male circumcision prevalence."
But don't listen to the WHO, they are probably just more of those lying circumcision enthusiasts craftily pushing their circumcision agenda, or maybe they're nefarious Jews (or Muslims) unethically trying to impose their religious practices on unsuspecting Africans.
I understand that a child born to a jewish mother is a jew, whether circumcised or not. Moses was not circumcised... anything happen to him? From some 'progressive' (?) jews that I have had conversations with, it would seem that there have been many discussions about this 'must' from a religious point of view (and seeing the number of jews that actually think the torah is the word of god). As far as I understand it, there are also bits in the 'word' that actually contradicts this. For some/most jews (and muslims for whom it is definitely tradition and not religion) it is a tradition, something one just goes through... I know you are going to contradict me on this.
Again, a ban may cover certain religious/traditional practices but would not be AIMED/TARGETED at them specifically. Any mutilation of a minor's body is wrong. What if a cultural/social mutilation would be to cut off the little finger of a baby? Would that be acceptable? After all, one has many more fingers and not having the lil' pinky wouldn't be a real loss... And female circumcision... is this OK? After all, it's a religious/traditional/social/cultural rite as well...
And how many times do I have to say that I have not even mentioned banning, let alone pushing for legal action?
Anyway, I've said my bit... YOU want to turn it into an anti jewish thread, I'm leaving it at condemning genital mutilation as a barbaric act forced upon an infant/minor. I will not be drawn into an 'attacking the jews' debate.
And yes, I'm going to contradict you. First, if you read your bible, God actually does insist that Moses circumcise himself. As for the "progressive" Jews you mention, yes, there are Jews that reject all sorts of Jewish practices. They do so based on their own prioritization of NON-JEWISH beliefs and values over Jewish beliefs and values. That's perfectly fine as a matter of personal choice, but it's ridiculous when they start trying to pretend that the choice they made based on NON-JEWISH motivations is actually a representation of authentic Jewish practice.
Very simply, Jewish law REQUIRES that male infants be circumcised eight days after birth. This is one of the most serious requirements in Jewish law. Failure to circumcise one's son carries the punishment of Kareit, which is reserved for the absolutely most serious religious offenses (essentially God cuts you out of the covenant. Nobody actually does something to you, but that's because the offense is considered so serious that only God can properly deal with it). I personally don't really care what an individual chooses to do in this regard, but it's crazy to pretend that there is any question regarding the centrality of circumcision within Jewish practice.
We don't call it "The Word." Christians call it "The Word." And no, as far as I know the bible does not contain any sort of contradiction on this issue (the New Testament is another matter, but again, we're talking about Jews, so the the New Testament ("The Word," if you will) doesn't factor in).
Where did I say that? I say I condemn this barbaric act forced upon infants/minors by adults.
I don't really call it anything but a nice lil' book of tales.
I guess my many, many, long hours for weeks on end discussions/debates with various Rabbis and learned jews was just a bunch of crock then?
Hell... I'm doing what I said I wouldn't... get into an 'attacking jews' debate (even if I'm not doing it maliciously
So... back to body mutilation of minors for social/traditional/religious rite/whatever practice.... does anyone find female circumcision quite acceptable? Or removing another perfectly healthy, functioning part of the body for the same reasons acceptable?
I always try my best not to criticize someone else's religion, but I just can't let this one go...this is amazingly sad to me. I apologize if this offends you but this is ludicrous in my opinion. Another major reason why I can't understand most organized religion.. especially one that tries to instill fear to force parents to participate in genital mutilation..
I might think eating poop is disgusting, bowing to any god is stupid and a waste of time, or that watching porn is degrading to women and supporting it is supporting sexual slavery, or that forcing one's child to be a vegan is both unhealthy and mean...but to outlaw a behavior which is important to someone else based on "moral reasoning" is an attempt to place your own moral code upon someone else.
When something is clearly wrong, the government steps in. (Murder, rape, child abuse, stealing, etc.) So whether circumcision is immoral is the discussion at hand. (Let's not forget that governments, in the past and present, have made immoral things legal and vice versa on thier own basis of faith. E.g. Prohibition, segregation, buying blood diamonds.) But since circumsicion it is part of the Muslim and Jewish moral codes, it falls under religious freedom. Therein lies the rub.
For this reason alone, the courts will not be able to ban it - even if they feel it is reprehensible or even immoral - religious freedom, I think will win over the court. We're not talking about cutting off an entire organ, or causing lasting bodily harm which impinges ones ability to be a fully functioning partner in society, or causing lasting psychological anguish...if the issue is the possible loss of the most extreme heights of extreme sexual pleasure, that's something subjective, which varying people experience differently in the first place.
Those are my boring two cents on the issue.
:ugeek:
Not always - my sister-in-law pierced her daughter's ears, and her daughter is only a few months old
Thanks for answering my question - I'll be the first to admit that as an atheist I'm no biblical scholar, and I was having a tough time wrapping my head around the link between those two lol
Also, FWIW, my parents (who are catholics) circumcised me when I was born (TMI, sorry), and I don't think it's made any difference to me at all. Hard to say sex would be better uncircumcised because I have no frame of reference, but circumcised sex is still pretty damn awesome.
Again, it clearly wasn't for religious reasons (unless they used to be jewish and just never got around to telling me), so I'm not sure why they chose to do it - but it hasn't adversely affected me in the least.
Yes. As was the urologist that told me the truth... and the next three pediatricians i have had since then.... (moving... :roll: ) however, she was the only one trying to push her religious mores on to us....
I haven't had a chance to read back through this entire thread... ... but did piercing one's ears suddenly start get equated to cutting of a piece of your baby's penis?
You have to admit a circumcised penis does look sexier than an uncircumcised one.
I am a jewish woman & if I get to that place in my life where I have to make that choice I will.
Just what this world needs, another stupid law for people who can't think for themselves.
Thank Goddess I'm Canadian. :-P