Because Jews and Muslims do it – we have to BAN it

puremagicpuremagic Posts: 1,907
edited July 2011 in A Moving Train
San Francisco Circumcision Ban To Appear On Ballot

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/1 ... r=Politics

SAN FRANCISCO — A proposal to ban the circumcision of male children in San Francisco has been cleared to appear on the November ballot, setting the stage for the nation's first public vote on what has long been considered a private family matter.

But even in a city with a long-held reputation for pushing boundaries, the measure is drawing heavy fire. Opponents are lining up against it, saying a ban on a religious rite considered sacred by Jews and Muslims is a blatant violation of constitutional rights.

Elections officials confirmed Wednesday the initiative had qualified for the ballot with more than 7,700 valid signatures from city residents. Initiatives must have at least 7,168 names to qualify.

If the measure passes, circumcision would be prohibited among males under the age of 18. The practice would become a misdemeanor offense punishable by a fine of up to $1,000 or up to one year in jail. There would be no religious exemptions.

The proposed ban appears to be the first in the country to make it this far, though a larger national debate over the health benefits of circumcision has been going on for many years. Banning circumcision would almost certainly prompt a flurry of legal challenges alleging violations of the First Amendment's guarantee of the freedom to exercise one's religious beliefs.

Supporters of the ban say male circumcision is a form of genital mutilation that is unnecessary, extremely painful and even dangerous. They say parents should not be able to force the decision on their young child.

"Parents are really guardians, and guardians have to do what's in the best interest of the child. It's his body. It's his choice," said Lloyd Schofield, the measure's lead proponent and a longtime San Francisco resident. He added the cutting away of the foreskin from the penis is a more invasive medical procedure than many new parents or childless individuals realize.

But opponents say such claims are alarmingly misleading, and call the proposal a clear violation of constitutionally protected religious freedoms.

"For a city that's renowned for being progressive and open-minded, to even have to consider such an intolerant proposition ... it sets a dangerous precedent for all cities and states," said Rabbi Gil Yosef Leeds of Berkeley. Leeds is a certified "mohel," the person who traditionally performs ritual circumcisions in the Jewish faith.
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    sounds like a crock of crap to me, if you don't want your child circumsized then don't.

    Godfather.
  • JOEJOEJOEJOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,619
    They only take tips!
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,157
    I don't think this has anything to do with Jews or Muslims. It's just San Francisco continuing its quest to legalize everything that has been banned and ban everything that is legal.

    In other words, it just San Francisco being San Francisco. :D
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  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    i dont understand why the need to lop off a foreskin anyway. if it wasnt meant to be there boys wouldnt be born with it.
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  • i dont understand why the need to lop off a foreskin anyway. if it wasnt meant to be there boys wouldnt be born with it.

    it's a silly tradition born out of ignorance of the times. it's going to fade out in the non Jewish world eventually. most doctors won't even consider it where I live. If I had a boy I wouldn't have. But I have two girls, so the decision evades me. :D
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  • satansbedsatansbed Posts: 2,139
    its much cleaner so i have heard....
  • satansbed wrote:
    its much cleaner so i have heard....

    myth.
    Gimli 1993
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  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    satansbed wrote:
    its much cleaner so i have heard....


    so if youve got a foreskin youre less likely to clean your penis as thoroughly??? hmmm :think:
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • haffajappahaffajappa British Columbia Posts: 5,955
    i thought in the jewish faith you don't circumsise?
    live pearl jam is best pearl jam
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    Haffa, I really don't mean this in a mean-spirited way, but it seems that you don't know the first thing about Judaism, literally. Circumcision is one of the most important rites in Judaism. It is performed on the eighth day after a boy's birth, and signifies the inclusion of the child in the covenant between God and Israel (the people of).
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • haffajappahaffajappa British Columbia Posts: 5,955
    yosi wrote:
    Haffa, I really don't mean this in a mean-spirited way, but it seems that you don't know the first thing about Judaism, literally. Circumcision is one of the most important rites in Judaism. It is performed on the eighth day after a boy's birth, and signifies the inclusion of the child in the covenant between God and Israel (the people of).
    No, apparently I don't.
    :? oops

    to add... all i knew about judaism and circumcision was from that episode of Friends...
    i'm not well versed in the details of religions :lol:
    live pearl jam is best pearl jam
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    I guess they are putting male circumcision in the same category as female circumcision - genital mutilation.

    Obviously for some it's a religion thing but for a lot it's just 'how it is' (aren't most american males circumcised?). Though why would one do this is beyond me, especially when you understand the function of the foreskin. One important function:

    "Boyle et al. state that "the complex innervation of the foreskin and frenulum has been well documented, and the genitally intact male has thousands of fine touch receptors and other highly erogenous nerve endings—many of which are lost to circumcision, with an inevitable reduction in sexual sensation experienced by circumcised males."[20] The AAP noted that the work of Taylor et al. "suggests that there may be a concentration of specialized sensory cells in specific ridged areas of the foreskin."[21]"
  • cajunkiwicajunkiwi Posts: 984
    yosi wrote:
    Haffa, I really don't mean this in a mean-spirited way, but it seems that you don't know the first thing about Judaism, literally. Circumcision is one of the most important rites in Judaism. It is performed on the eighth day after a boy's birth, and signifies the inclusion of the child in the covenant between God and Israel (the people of).

    Out of curiosity... and I mean this with all due respect... how does lopping a flap of skin off someone's penis signify the inclusion of a child into the covenant between god and Israel? How did that start?
    And I listen for the voice inside my head... nothing. I'll do this one myself.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,435
    Rediculous. Not that I'm a big fan of either but what next- are they going to try to ban tattoos and piercings? And by the way, I'm not glueing anything back on.
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  • JOEJOEJOEJOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,619
    edited May 2011
    yosi wrote:
    Haffa, I really don't mean this in a mean-spirited way, but it seems that you don't know the first thing about Judaism, literally. Circumcision is one of the most important rites in Judaism. It is performed on the eighth day after a boy's birth, and signifies the inclusion of the child in the covenant between God and Israel (the people of).

    My semite brother, why not just focus on educating the girl, instead of highlighting her lack of knowledge?
    Post edited by JOEJOEJOE on
  • Chip McFlenniganChip McFlennigan Posts: 1,162
    All religions have stupid customs.

    I'm sorry, but, it's 2011. God of the gaps is the only god.
    I knew it all along, see?
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    brianlux wrote:
    Rediculous. Not that I'm a big fan of either but what next- are they going to try to ban tattoos and piercings? And by the way, I'm not glueing anything back on.
    The difference is (for argument's sake) if you get a tattoo or piercing, you have a choice in the matter.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,435
    brianlux wrote:
    Rediculous. Not that I'm a big fan of either but what next- are they going to try to ban tattoos and piercings? And by the way, I'm not glueing anything back on.
    The difference is (for argument's sake) if you get a tattoo or piercing, you have a choice in the matter.
    Good point, keepon rockin, and good call- I hadn't thought of it in those terms an I admit my first post on this subject wasn't well thought out. I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm just not sure it's something that it will ever be banned. Yet it does seem rather barbaric and I have a difficult time imagining someone coming up with the idea in the first place.
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
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    "Try to not spook the horse."
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  • GTFLYGIRLGTFLYGIRL NewYork Posts: 760
    Godfather. wrote:
    sounds like a crock of crap to me, if you don't want your child circumsized then don't.

    Godfather.


    Girl OR boy... right?

    C'mon.... What the hell... it's the parent's decision!!!
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    brianlux wrote:
    brianlux wrote:
    Rediculous. Not that I'm a big fan of either but what next- are they going to try to ban tattoos and piercings? And by the way, I'm not glueing anything back on.
    The difference is (for argument's sake) if you get a tattoo or piercing, you have a choice in the matter.
    Good point, keepon rockin, and good call- I hadn't thought of it in those terms an I admit my first post on this subject wasn't well thought out. I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm just not sure it's something that it will ever be banned. Yet it does seem rather barbaric and I have a difficult time imagining someone coming up with the idea in the first place.
    It's all good. I'm not sure how I feel about the topic, if we're thinking logically, we are causing many newborns unnecessary pain. However, I myself do not remember it, and not sure it's a big deal either way, as it doesn't cause the same kind of permanent effects as FGM. However, the super traditional methods where rabbi's bite off the foreskin (as outlined in 'The God Delusion') is completely over the top.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,435
    "I'm not sure how I feel about the topic, if we're thinking logically, we are causing many newborns unnecessary pain. However, I myself do not remember it, and not sure it's a big deal either way, as it doesn't cause the same kind of permanent effects as FGM. However, the super traditional methods where rabbi's bite off the foreskin (as outlined in 'The God Delusion') is completely over the top."

    Yiyeee :o
    No- definitely would not want to go there!
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
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  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    Ok, no rabbi has ever bitten off the foreskin. First off the ritual is performed by a "mohel," who need not be a rabbi. Second, there was a very rare custom where the mohel would "clean" the affected area by sucking on the site of the incision, but I don't know of anyone who does this anymore.

    With regard to the pain the infant feels, I've been to a whole lot of these ceremonies, and the fact is that the baby almost always stops crying pretty quickly after the ritual is completed. I guess babies do have incredibly short attention spans, but still, if the pain was that severe you'd expect (or at least I would expect) a more prolonged response.

    As for where the ritual comes from, in the Bible God tells Abraham to circumcise himself and all the males of his household as a symbol of the covenant between them. Think of it in terms of signing a contract in blood, with the added symbolism that God has promised to make Abraham the father of a great nation, and the sign of this covenant is "inscribed" on the very organ that will bring this about.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • I think circumcision is a barbaric practice that if parents are so fucking bad that they'll allow their child to have part of his or her body cut off because of "tradition," they shouldn't be parents.

    If you want to get it done as an adult... go right ahead.

    But some babies have died from shock... some have gotten so infected their penises have had to be amputated.

    It causes extreme pain to babies. I can't imagine how bad a parent you'd have to be to do that.
  • yosi wrote:
    Ok, no rabbi has ever bitten off the foreskin.


    Actually.. yeah, they have. And there was recently a case where a two babies were infected with herpes because of it. One of them died.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6898403/ns/ ... ts-herpes/

    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 234AA7N4Jt

    It's a barbaric practice and should be illegal.
  • By the way the tradition of biting off the foreskin is called the metzizah b'peh. It's not common but it's clearly a pretty perverted thing to do.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_milah

    http://blogs.webmd.com/sexual-health-se ... mcise.html
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    Dude, yes, that is a terrible story, but it's ONE GUY, practicing a ritual that is otherwise unheard of in the modern Jewish world. I'm circumcised, as are all the other Jewish guys I know (which is a whole fucking lot) and we're all perfectly fine. What you're talking about is an absolute infringement on religious liberty.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi wrote:
    Dude, yes, that is a terrible story, but it's ONE GUY, practicing a ritual that is otherwise unheard of in the modern Jewish world. I'm circumcised, as are all the other Jewish guys I know (which is a whole fucking lot) and we're all perfectly fine. What you're talking about is an absolute infringement on religious liberty.

    And what you're talking about is an infringement on the rights of a child who can't speak for himself.

    if you want to cut the end of your dick off... be my guest. But wait until the child is 18 and able to make that decision for himself. I mean... it's not even moral to pierce a baby girl's ears, if you ask me.

    considering your "god" doesn't actually exist and the baby boy's rights do... I'm going to say that you're wrong and I'm right.
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    1) The ritual requires that circumcision be performed on the eighth day after birth (barring a medical condition necessitating that it be put off) so waiting "till someone is 18" is out of the question. Doing so is tantamount to annulling the ritual entirely.

    2) You're right, a baby can't speak for itself, which is exactly why the parents are empowered to make decisions on the child's behalf. You are trying to frame the issue as an infringement on the child's rights, except that the parents speak for their child, so that if circumcision is performed on the parents' wishes no rights have been violated.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    For whatever reason, I just can't understand how parents, the ones that are there to protect the child, agree to having their baby held down/strapped down and, without anesthetic, have someone slice down the middle of the foreskin then cut around it to remove a perfectly healthy part of his body, during which time this baby is screaming? I assume that when done in a Synagogue, it is not under sterile conditions with all associated risks (as opposed to an operating theatre). Also, I assume the parents are aware of the function of the foreskin and therefore they are denying their son full sexual pleasure as an adult?

    Because that's what male circumcision is. As a mother, I could never do this.
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