Northern Ireland

LikeAnOcean

"It's my island!"

"Do we get to kill the English?"

Byrnzie

Mariamaniatis wrote:

Byrnzie did correctly identify my point but Im afraid it was missed by the general populus here. I was making somewhat of a snide point that before pointing fingers at the United States for its blunders in Iraq, or in Israel, it would be worthwhile to look at the fact that there are places in the World right now that still sit under the vestiges on 19th Century European Colonialism. Ireland being one of those places. European Colonialism really underlies about 90% of today's existing political problems, including the Israel/Palestine problem.

O.k. Though this isn't 1948. We're now dealing with a new situation, post 1967. The parameters have changed.

Mariamaniatis wrote:

Im staying away from four letter words and trying to keep it civil this time Byrnzie. My views on the West Bank have moved more towards yours in the last few years actually.

Good to hear it. Care to elaborate?

Thoughts_Arrive

Gob wrote:

"It's my island!"

"Do we get to kill the English?"

The Queen better watch out for this dude....

Byrnzie

Thoughts_Arrive wrote:

The Queen better watch out for this dude....

This dude better watch out for these dudes:


The S.A.S

Lay down your arms

Also, has anyone been to the Falls and Shankill in Belfast? The respective murals really help put the mentality of each side into perspective.

The vast majority of the murals on the Falls (catholic) are remembering those who have been lost to the troubles (with a few exceptions). Most of the Murals on the Shankill are praising the most successful paramilitary members and have a much more aggressive feel to them (almost every one has men in masks holding weapons, etc). One thing that really really stuck out to me was when I crossed the wall from the falls to Shankill there was a bunch of grafitti on the Shankill side. And in big bold letters was "fuck peace" hastily spraypainted on the wall. Everyone I spoke to on the Falls side said all they wanted was peace and to have the same opportunities as everyone else.... I didnt feel safe sparking up random conversation on the other side of the wall.

Eraserhead

I went to Belfast about a year before the PJ show last year (so I guess that's two years ago...)

Anyway, we did the bus trip around the city and it was a real eye-opener to see the dividing wall between the streets. Incredible to see such a thing that's in part of the UK.

Bigda

Lay down your arms wrote:

Also, has anyone been to the Falls and Shankill in Belfast? The respective murals really help put the mentality of each side into perspective.

The vast majority of the murals on the Falls (catholic) are remembering those who have been lost to the troubles (with a few exceptions). Most of the Murals on the Shankill are praising the most successful paramilitary members and have a much more aggressive feel to them (almost every one has men in masks holding weapons, etc). One thing that really really stuck out to me was when I crossed the wall from the falls to Shankill there was a bunch of grafitti on the Shankill side. And in big bold letters was "fuck peace" hastily spraypainted on the wall. Everyone I spoke to on the Falls side said all they wanted was peace and to have the same opportunities as everyone else.... I didnt feel safe sparking up random conversation on the other side of the wall.

been there, done that. exactly my thoughts and memories. respect. m.

Thoughts_Arrive

So the Queen visited Ireland but did not say sorry to the Irish for England's crimes? :roll:

What is she doing there anyways?
It wasn't long ago that she was handing out medals to the soldiers that shot and killed innocent protesters on Bloody Sunday. Now she pays her respects to Irish freedom fighters? Those brave men and women must be turning in their graves.

:roll:

wolfamongwolves

Thoughts_Arrive wrote:

So the Queen visited Ireland but did not say sorry to the Irish for England's crimes? :roll:

What is she doing there anyways?
It wasn't long ago that she was handing out medals to the soldiers that shot and killed innocent protesters on Bloody Sunday. Now she pays her respects to Irish freedom fighters? Those brave men and women must be turning in their graves.

:roll:

The past is past. Nothing changes if you keep focussing on the past instead of trying to build a better future. And the majority of the people on this island, north and south have decided that they are sick of strife and want to leave the past behind. If the queen, as a representative of the UK, is happy to do that too, I welcome it, and so it seems, do the majority of this country.

As to why she's here, President McAleese's speech before hers says it eloquently enough:

"It is my pleasure to welcome you to Dublin Castle this evening on this the first ever State Visit to take place between our two countries. This visit is a culmination of the success of the Peace Process. It is an acknowledgment that while we cannot change the past, we have chosen to change the future...

...It is only right that on this historic visit we should reflect on the difficult centuries which have brought us to this point. Inevitably where there are the colonisers and the colonised, the past is a repository of sources of bitter division. The harsh facts cannot be altered nor loss nor grief erased but with time and generosity, interpretations and perspectives can soften and open up space for new accommodations...

...I am deeply proud of Ireland's difficult journey to national sovereignty... I am particularly proud of this island's peace-makers who having experienced first-hand the appalling toxic harvest of failing to resolve old hatreds and political differences, rejected the perennial culture of conflict and compromised enough to let a new future in.

The Good Friday Agreement represented a fresh start and committed us all to partnership, equality and mutual respect as the basis of future relationships. Under the Agreement, unionism and nationalism were accorded equal recognition as political aspirations and philosophies. Northern Ireland's present status within the United Kingdom was solemnly recognised, as was the option for a united Ireland if that secures the agreement and consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland...

...The journey to peace has been cruelly slow and arduous but it has taken us to a place where hope thrives and the past no longer threatens to overwhelm our present and our future. The legacy of the Good Friday Agreement is already profound and encouraging. We all of us have a duty to protect, nurture and develop it.

Your Majesty, from our previous conversations I know of your deep support for the peace process and your longing to see relationships between our two countries sustained on a template of good neighbourliness. Your visit here is an important sign - among a growing number of signs - that we have embarked on the fresh start envisaged in the Good Friday Agreement. Your visit is a formal recognition of what has, for many years, been a reality – that Ireland and Britain are neighbours, equals, colleagues and friends.

Though the seas between us have often been stormy, we have chosen to build a solid and enduring bridge of friendship between us and to cross it to a new, a happier future.

satansbed

wolfamongwolves wrote:

Thoughts_Arrive wrote:

So the Queen visited Ireland but did not say sorry to the Irish for England's crimes? :roll:

What is she doing there anyways?
It wasn't long ago that she was handing out medals to the soldiers that shot and killed innocent protesters on Bloody Sunday. Now she pays her respects to Irish freedom fighters? Those brave men and women must be turning in their graves.

:roll:

The past is past. Nothing changes if you keep focussing on the past instead of trying to build a better future. And the majority of the people on this island, north and south have decided that they are sick of strife and want to leave the past behind. If the queen, as a representative of the UK, is happy to do that too, I welcome it, and so it seems, do the majority of this country.

As to why she's here, President McAleese's speech before hers says it eloquently enough:

"It is my pleasure to welcome you to Dublin Castle this evening on this the first ever State Visit to take place between our two countries. This visit is a culmination of the success of the Peace Process. It is an acknowledgment that while we cannot change the past, we have chosen to change the future...

...It is only right that on this historic visit we should reflect on the difficult centuries which have brought us to this point. Inevitably where there are the colonisers and the colonised, the past is a repository of sources of bitter division. The harsh facts cannot be altered nor loss nor grief erased but with time and generosity, interpretations and perspectives can soften and open up space for new accommodations...

...I am deeply proud of Ireland's difficult journey to national sovereignty... I am particularly proud of this island's peace-makers who having experienced first-hand the appalling toxic harvest of failing to resolve old hatreds and political differences, rejected the perennial culture of conflict and compromised enough to let a new future in.

The Good Friday Agreement represented a fresh start and committed us all to partnership, equality and mutual respect as the basis of future relationships. Under the Agreement, unionism and nationalism were accorded equal recognition as political aspirations and philosophies. Northern Ireland's present status within the United Kingdom was solemnly recognised, as was the option for a united Ireland if that secures the agreement and consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland...

...The journey to peace has been cruelly slow and arduous but it has taken us to a place where hope thrives and the past no longer threatens to overwhelm our present and our future. The legacy of the Good Friday Agreement is already profound and encouraging. We all of us have a duty to protect, nurture and develop it.

Your Majesty, from our previous conversations I know of your deep support for the peace process and your longing to see relationships between our two countries sustained on a template of good neighbourliness. Your visit here is an important sign - among a growing number of signs - that we have embarked on the fresh start envisaged in the Good Friday Agreement. Your visit is a formal recognition of what has, for many years, been a reality – that Ireland and Britain are neighbours, equals, colleagues and friends.

Though the seas between us have often been stormy, we have chosen to build a solid and enduring bridge of friendship between us and to cross it to a new, a happier future.

+1

living in the republic and having family and friends from both backgrounds i think i have a [pretty interesting insight to the troubles, the fast majority of people want peace, granted by the good Friday agreement, passed by both parts of the country, this means that the republic doesn't have a claim on the north, until the majority on both sides want to, and i think the vast majority of people feel this is the best option, in the south, the people protesting the queen total only about a 100 or so, it is the vast minority of people who want to disrupt this thing, and they are mainly gold chain, Nike air white tracksuit wearing, dutch gold drinking scumbags

Bigda

+1

living in the republic and having family and friends from both backgrounds i think i have a [pretty interesting insight to the troubles, the fast majority of people want peace, granted by the good Friday agreement, passed by both parts of the country, this means that the republic doesn't have a claim on the north, until the majority on both sides want to, and i think the vast majority of people feel this is the best option, in the south, the people protesting the queen total only about a 100 or so, it is the vast minority of people who want to disrupt this thing, and they are mainly gold chain, Nike air white tracksuit wearing, dutch gold drinking scumbags

whoever they are and no matter how many, there is no need to be condescending. it is their right to protest, even if there were only two of them. i saw some elderly, middle aged people on the streets, too. wouldn't call them scumbags myself.

Thoughts_Arrive

Bigda wrote:

+1

living in the republic and having family and friends from both backgrounds i think i have a [pretty interesting insight to the troubles, the fast majority of people want peace, granted by the good Friday agreement, passed by both parts of the country, this means that the republic doesn't have a claim on the north, until the majority on both sides want to, and i think the vast majority of people feel this is the best option, in the south, the people protesting the queen total only about a 100 or so, it is the vast minority of people who want to disrupt this thing, and they are mainly gold chain, Nike air white tracksuit wearing, dutch gold drinking scumbags

whoever they are and no matter how many, there is no need to be condescending. it is their right to protest, even if there were only two of them. i saw some elderly, middle aged people on the streets, too. wouldn't call them scumbags myself.

+1

satansbed

Bigda wrote:

+1

living in the republic and having family and friends from both backgrounds i think i have a [pretty interesting insight to the troubles, the fast majority of people want peace, granted by the good Friday agreement, passed by both parts of the country, this means that the republic doesn't have a claim on the north, until the majority on both sides want to, and i think the vast majority of people feel this is the best option, in the south, the people protesting the queen total only about a 100 or so, it is the vast minority of people who want to disrupt this thing, and they are mainly gold chain, Nike air white tracksuit wearing, dutch gold drinking scumbags

whoever they are and no matter how many, there is no need to be condescending. it is their right to protest, even if there were only two of them. i saw some elderly, middle aged people on the streets, too. wouldn't call them scumbags myself.

i may be being a bit harsh but 90% of the people who ive seen at the protests seem to have a very basic understanding.



its people like this that annoy me so much

oh the irony

Thoughts_Arrive

Go Celtic!
Fk Rangers boooo!

satansbed

Thoughts_Arrive wrote:

Go Celtic!
Fk Rangers boooo!

that guy was protesting outside a rugby match, in ireland, wearing a soccer jersey, talk about dumb

Thoughts_Arrive

Celtic are Irish, makes sense to me :P

satansbed

Thoughts_Arrive wrote:

Celtic are Irish, makes sense to me :P

well soccer is an english sport

but i assuming you were being sarcastic

JordyWordy

I've got to agree with satansbed and wolfamongwolves, i too am in the Republic and it's Northern Ireland's affair as to who's in charge.

a few points worth making;

1) There was an interesting point made earlier that if the North became part of the Republic it would bankrupt us - this may not be entirely true but the North is heavily subsidised by the UK: it doesn't pay for itself. Consequently the funding for roads, social benefits etc would decrease if it became part of the Republic. (that's a completely hypothetical situation to me).

2) Some posters mentioned "planted" people in Northern Ireland...describing Unionists in the North as "planters" is ridiculous, out-of-date, and does nothing but ignore reality. They've lived here for hundreds of years, they are Irish too. Their version of Irish may not coincide with an extreme republicans version of being Irish, but that's irrelevant. They are Irish, not "planters". For example, do many Americans still describe White people in the US who currently live in former native-Indian territories as "planters"?. Generations have passed, it's their home too, etc. Same thing as Israel & Palestine - They both have equal claim to it, they both view it as home, no need to pretend that isn't the case.

3) In general, the population is split 50-50 catholic/protestant and republican/unionist. Not all catholics are republican, and vice versa. Most Unionists live in "north east" Northern Ireland (Antrim, Down, East Tyrone, North Armagh), and the rest of the country is a buffer zone of sorts with a large Catholic majority with protestant areas within that. (eg Omagh, Kesh, parts of Derry, etc). The overall population split has always been roughly 50-50 (over the years the majority has shifted from Unionist majority to Catholic majority)...But this varies hugley depending on the county - any decision of the future of the country would need more than a marginal majority to avoid inciting more violence.

4) People need to remember that Northern Ireland voted itself out of the Irish Free State in 1922 - the British government didn't do it, the Northern politicians of the time did it.

5) Northern Ireland and the Republic have different cultures, small differences but differences nonetheless. They have been separate for almost a century, and whether people agree with that or not, it is the siutation now.

I personally think NI would be more likely to become independent itslef or become a Commonwealth dependency than to join the Republic...

IrishRetro

Firstly, do you actually understand the term 'planter'? yes it is going back hundreds of years but can you define plantation in the terms british occupation?
Secondly, the financial mess, yes Northern ireland is subsidised by the Uk but Stormont is now currently running many of the financial responsibilities themselves. taxation et al are controlled by London at the moment. Maybe Irish unity could teach the idiots in charge of the Irish governments finances how to run their country sensibly. No-one can argue how stupid the Irish government were in dealing with the country's finances. When you are giving out over 140% of what you take in, that is pathetic! finances!
You mention that the people of the North voted themselves out of Irish unity in 1922, well in around that period the MAJORITY were Protestant in Northern ireland at that time! http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/ni/religion.htm
As for Northern Ireland's future, it's not a question of when Ireland will be united but WHEN! ]

IrishRetro

Lay down your arms wrote:

Also, has anyone been to the Falls and Shankill in Belfast? The respective murals really help put the mentality of each side into perspective.

The vast majority of the murals on the Falls (catholic) are remembering those who have been lost to the troubles (with a few exceptions). Most of the Murals on the Shankill are praising the most successful paramilitary members and have a much more aggressive feel to them (almost every one has men in masks holding weapons, etc). One thing that really really stuck out to me was when I crossed the wall from the falls to Shankill there was a bunch of grafitti on the Shankill side. And in big bold letters was "fuck peace" hastily spraypainted on the wall. Everyone I spoke to on the Falls side said all they wanted was peace and to have the same opportunities as everyone else.... I didnt feel safe sparking up random conversation on the other side of the wall.

They are trying to hold on to the union! Politically they can feel their control which they dominated for so long slip, and now they fear having their links with the UK severed. This won't happen, but they use the threat of violence in their attempt to disrupt the political process which is working!