Secondly, the financial mess, yes Northern ireland is subsidised by the Uk but Stormont is now currently running many of the financial responsibilities themselves. taxation et al are controlled by London at the moment. Maybe Irish unity could teach the idiots in charge of the Irish governments finances how to run their country sensibly. No-one can argue how stupid the Irish government were in dealing with the country's finances. When you are giving out over 140% of what you take in, that is pathetic! finances!
You mention that the people of the North voted themselves out of Irish unity in 1922, well in around that period the MAJORITY were Protestant in Northern ireland at that time! http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/ni/religion.htm
As for Northern Ireland's future, it's not a question of when Ireland will be united but WHEN!
I understand NI runs alot of it's state instutions itself, and is very capable at self-governing. I don't think NI is in a financial mess (well, no worse than everywhere else) - my point was that being in the UK is worth a lot of money to NI, and economically it receives a lot of money that wouldn't be available if NI left the union. That's all. And of course the government/economic policies in the Republic were a disaster - I don't think the Republic is more capable of running NI or anything like that. NI would be fully capable of balancing it's books withou beingin the UK, but there would be cutbacks of public spending, which never goes over well with people of any background.
They are trying to hold on to the union! Politically they can feel their control which they dominated for so long slip, and now they fear having their links with the UK severed. This won't happen, but they use the threat of violence in their attempt to disrupt the political process which is working!
Firstly, do you actually understand the term 'planter'? yes it is going back hundreds of years but can you define plantation in the terms british occupation?
Secondly, the financial mess, yes Northern ireland is subsidised by the Uk but Stormont is now currently running many of the financial responsibilities themselves. taxation et al are controlled by London at the moment. Maybe Irish unity could teach the idiots in charge of the Irish governments finances how to run their country sensibly. No-one can argue how stupid the Irish government were in dealing with the country's finances. When you are giving out over 140% of what you take in, that is pathetic! finances!
You mention that the people of the North voted themselves out of Irish unity in 1922, well in around that period the MAJORITY were Protestant in Northern ireland at that time! http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/ni/religion.htm
As for Northern Ireland's future, it's not a question of when Ireland will be united but WHEN! ]
well actually what happend was the tax take dropped rather than the spending increased over what it should have, now the main problem is how to cut that 40% gap,
You mention that the people of the North voted themselves out of Irish unity in 1922, well in around that period the MAJORITY were Protestant in Northern ireland at that time! http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/ni/religion.htm
Yeah, I realise that, which is why it happened - it was the perfectly normal outcome of the Treaty. My point was to clarify that, because some posts earlier in the thread made it sound as if Partition was forced on us by Westminster, which isn't really true. Craig,Carson etc asked for it to be put in, it wasnt the UK treaty party arbitrarily decidin to split the country. The reality was that the country was already spllit - not along the lines of the eventual border, but split nonetheless. The regretful fact that Dublin politicians still didn't fully understand how opposed many in the North were to independence says volumes about the lack of unity. Even after the gun landings and Unionist movements had become popular a decade before, (in response to the Fenian movements), Sinn Fein still thought the Unionists could be convinced to join an independent Ireland, which was a pretty ambititious target. The mistrust and sectarian problems were already there in Ulster, Partition just emphasised it.
Loyalists of the time weren't being Loyal to the Crown, they were being Loyal to themselves - Their own interests and the Crowns interests are not the same thing. In the build-up to the Treaty the Unionist attitude of the time was "if we were in Sinn Feins shoes, we would persecute protestants in an Independent Ireland". This was probably the wrong way to read the situation - Sinn Fein at the time had no sectarian agenda. But Sinn Fein did not realise these were genuine fears, and by failing to successfully negotiating with Carson and Craig to ease any worries they had of being 2nd class citiens in a new state, Sinn Fein inadvertently reinforced the Unionist belief that they were being left out of the process, that Sinn Fein would do whatever they wanted. This strengthened Unionist support for Carson and Craig, who wanted to protect themselves from this perceived threat.
In the election prior to the Treaty talks, Carson & Craig secured votes from Protestants who weren't necessarily opposed to an independent Ireland, but who were very afraid of being discriminated against under Catholic Rule. This gave Carson & Craig more votes, and a stronger hand in the Treaty negotiations.
The reality of the 1920s was the northern counties (ie: antrim, down, armagh and most of derry) were never going to be part of an independent Ireland. Just making sure people are clear about it.
Comments
I understand NI runs alot of it's state instutions itself, and is very capable at self-governing. I don't think NI is in a financial mess (well, no worse than everywhere else) - my point was that being in the UK is worth a lot of money to NI, and economically it receives a lot of money that wouldn't be available if NI left the union. That's all. And of course the government/economic policies in the Republic were a disaster - I don't think the Republic is more capable of running NI or anything like that. NI would be fully capable of balancing it's books withou beingin the UK, but there would be cutbacks of public spending, which never goes over well with people of any background.
Agree with you here.
well actually what happend was the tax take dropped rather than the spending increased over what it should have, now the main problem is how to cut that 40% gap,
Yeah, I realise that, which is why it happened - it was the perfectly normal outcome of the Treaty. My point was to clarify that, because some posts earlier in the thread made it sound as if Partition was forced on us by Westminster, which isn't really true. Craig,Carson etc asked for it to be put in, it wasnt the UK treaty party arbitrarily decidin to split the country. The reality was that the country was already spllit - not along the lines of the eventual border, but split nonetheless. The regretful fact that Dublin politicians still didn't fully understand how opposed many in the North were to independence says volumes about the lack of unity. Even after the gun landings and Unionist movements had become popular a decade before, (in response to the Fenian movements), Sinn Fein still thought the Unionists could be convinced to join an independent Ireland, which was a pretty ambititious target. The mistrust and sectarian problems were already there in Ulster, Partition just emphasised it.
Loyalists of the time weren't being Loyal to the Crown, they were being Loyal to themselves - Their own interests and the Crowns interests are not the same thing. In the build-up to the Treaty the Unionist attitude of the time was "if we were in Sinn Feins shoes, we would persecute protestants in an Independent Ireland". This was probably the wrong way to read the situation - Sinn Fein at the time had no sectarian agenda. But Sinn Fein did not realise these were genuine fears, and by failing to successfully negotiating with Carson and Craig to ease any worries they had of being 2nd class citiens in a new state, Sinn Fein inadvertently reinforced the Unionist belief that they were being left out of the process, that Sinn Fein would do whatever they wanted. This strengthened Unionist support for Carson and Craig, who wanted to protect themselves from this perceived threat.
In the election prior to the Treaty talks, Carson & Craig secured votes from Protestants who weren't necessarily opposed to an independent Ireland, but who were very afraid of being discriminated against under Catholic Rule. This gave Carson & Craig more votes, and a stronger hand in the Treaty negotiations.
The reality of the 1920s was the northern counties (ie: antrim, down, armagh and most of derry) were never going to be part of an independent Ireland. Just making sure people are clear about it.