well, judging by what your are saying and how much foundation it has in reliable data you are quoting, my " knowledgeable position in Poland" is equally knowledgeable as yours in China, my man. to say the least.
I'm not in China at the moment, I'm back in England now. Not that that's relevant.
I'm with you Byrnzie. Most English people I know couldnt give a toss no matter what the views are of the people above. And most irish vouldnt care less the Queen is there....
Right. And I expect 99% of other English on this Messageboard will agree.
I say your wrong.. from my knowledgeable position as a person who lived in Northern Ireland during the worst years of the conflict and someone who has a personal interest in it and peaks to English people a lot about it and happens to know many many people who care.I would suggest to you its because you talk to people who generally don't care about much at all.... you certainly come across that way.
AND, most importantly you cant back up what you say. In a discussion about such a important subject you point is completely null and void as it is nothing but conjecture.
Please show me where you've backed up what you've said?
You lived in Northern Ireland for a time, and speak to people with a personal interest in the subject? So it looks to me like your opinion is biased.
Well, initially you answered your own question. And yes you could say my opinion is biased somewhat as is most people who have an interest in a subject. My question to you was to justify sweeping statements suggesting 44.5 million people in England don't care. My experience is that this cannot be true.... it's just not feasible. And you haven't given me anything to suggest otherwise.
Well, initially you answered your own question. And yes you could say my opinion is biased somewhat as is most people who have an interest in a subject. My question to you was to justify sweeping statements suggesting 44.5 million people in England don't care. My experience is that this cannot be true.... it's just not feasible. And you haven't given me anything to suggest otherwise.
And you haven't given me anything to suggest that anyone other than a handful of people with direct links to Northern Ireland give a shit about the place.
Why did you live there? Do you have relatives there? Is that why you think the English care about Northern Ireland?
You may find people in places like Glasgow have an opinion on Northern Ireland, but most English couldn't care less about it.
Well, initially you answered your own question. And yes you could say my opinion is biased somewhat as is most people who have an interest in a subject. My question to you was to justify sweeping statements suggesting 44.5 million people in England don't care. My experience is that this cannot be true.... it's just not feasible. And you haven't given me anything to suggest otherwise.
And you haven't given me anything to suggest that anyone other than a handful of people with direct links to Northern Ireland give a shit about the place.
Why did you live there? Do you have relatives there? Is that why you think the English care about Northern Ireland?
You may find people in places like Glasgow have an opinion on Northern Ireland, but most English couldn't care less about it.
I said that the majority of people in NI want to remain with the UK because of the election results of the last 40 years suggest this is true.
In further support of this I suggest you look at the very small amount of people who turned up to protest at the Queens visit today.. around 50 I believe were there at one point.
I lived in NI as the son of a British Army soldier, but this does not in anyway suggest I am biased towards the Union. I believe (as does my father) that the will of the people is strongest, and if the people want to be apart from the UK then they should be allowed. At this point nothing in elections has suggested a referendum should happen as the result would be a waste of time and tax payers money.
You have stated that "most" and "99%" of the English Population doesn't care, you haven't given ANY justification for that, you just respond asking me for mine. I think you have no idea what the population of England feel, you certainly do not speak for the vast majority of people I know. Most of whom have no connection to the conflict at all.
Up to this point you have offered no intelligent argument, only generalised assumptions with no basis. For that reason...... I'm out.
I said that the majority of people in NI want to remain with the UK because of the election results of the last 40 years suggest this is true.
In further support of this I suggest you look at the very small amount of people who turned up to protest at the Queens visit today.. around 50 I believe were there at one point.
I didn't say the majority of the population of Northern Ireland couldn't care less. I said the majority of people in England couldn't care less.
Do you even know the difference between England and Northern Ireland?
And those people protesting at the Queens visit today were from the Irish Republic. The Queen visited Dublin today. Dublin is in the Republic of Ireland. It's not in Northern Ireland, and it's not in England. Would you like me to post a map so you can see what I'm talking about?
I said the majority of English couldn't give a toss about Northern Ireland and your response is to tell me how Protestants in Northern Ireland do give a toss. Not quite a credible, or even slightly relevant, response on your part.
Im going to try and give my opinion and then sidestep all the fighting in this thread. a) Im american, so I am not as close to the topic as many in this thread semm to be. However, that doesnt mean I am uninformed (but I am no expert either).
Both sides of the argument seem to have points. I wouldnt trust the data that suggests more than 50% of the voters in NI want to remain part of the UK and someone touched oupon why. Becasue many of those people are transplants, only in NI because their company can operate at a lower cost in NI. This skews that data in my opinion. These people would be British residents regardless... all their vote does is stack the deck.
If 99% of brits could care less about having NI and it is of no consequence to the British economy (from the way you describe it, NI seems to be a bane on whichever economy it is tied to) then what is the porblem... give them their country back.
If NI became part of RI I would agree that is would put the RI economy in deeper water, but that is not a viable excuse in my opinion to delay the transfer.
IMO, Britian is graping to its last straw of imperialism, I cant see an actual viable reason they still maintain control of NI.
Byrnzie did correctly identify my point but Im afraid it was missed by the general populus here. I was making somewhat of a snide point that before pointing fingers at the United States for its blunders in Iraq, or in Israel, it would be worthwhile to look at the fact that there are places in the World right now that still sit under the vestiges on 19th Century European Colonialism. Ireland being one of those places. European Colonialism really underlies about 90% of today's existing political problems, including the Israel/Palestine problem.
Im staying away from four letter words and trying to keep it civil this time Byrnzie. My views on the West Bank have moved more towards yours in the last few years actually.
Byrnzie did correctly identify my point but Im afraid it was missed by the general populus here. I was making somewhat of a snide point that before pointing fingers at the United States for its blunders in Iraq, or in Israel, it would be worthwhile to look at the fact that there are places in the World right now that still sit under the vestiges on 19th Century European Colonialism. Ireland being one of those places. European Colonialism really underlies about 90% of today's existing political problems, including the Israel/Palestine problem.
O.k. Though this isn't 1948. We're now dealing with a new situation, post 1967. The parameters have changed.
Im staying away from four letter words and trying to keep it civil this time Byrnzie. My views on the West Bank have moved more towards yours in the last few years actually.
Also, has anyone been to the Falls and Shankill in Belfast? The respective murals really help put the mentality of each side into perspective.
The vast majority of the murals on the Falls (catholic) are remembering those who have been lost to the troubles (with a few exceptions). Most of the Murals on the Shankill are praising the most successful paramilitary members and have a much more aggressive feel to them (almost every one has men in masks holding weapons, etc). One thing that really really stuck out to me was when I crossed the wall from the falls to Shankill there was a bunch of grafitti on the Shankill side. And in big bold letters was "fuck peace" hastily spraypainted on the wall. Everyone I spoke to on the Falls side said all they wanted was peace and to have the same opportunities as everyone else.... I didnt feel safe sparking up random conversation on the other side of the wall.
I went to Belfast about a year before the PJ show last year (so I guess that's two years ago...)
Anyway, we did the bus trip around the city and it was a real eye-opener to see the dividing wall between the streets. Incredible to see such a thing that's in part of the UK.
Manchester 04.06.00, Leeds 25.08.06, Wembley 18.06.07, Dusseldorf 21.06.07, Shepherds Bush 11.08.09, Manchester 17.08.09, Adelaide 17.11.09, Melbourne 20.11.09, Sydney 22.11.09, Brisbane 25.11.09, MSG1 20.05.10, MSG2 21.05.10, Dublin 22.06.10, Belfast 23.06.10, London 25.06.10, Long Beach 06.07.11 (EV), Los Angeles 08.07.11 (EV), Toronto 11.09.11, Toronto 12.09.11, Ottawa 14.09.11, Hamilton 14.09.11, Manchester 20.06.12, Manchester 21.06.12, Amsterdam 26.06.2012, Amsterdam 27.06.2012, Berlin 04.07.12, Berlin 05.07.12, Stockholm 07.07.12, Oslo 09.07.12, Copenhagen 10.07.12, Manchester 28.07.12 (EV), Brooklyn 18.10.13, Brooklyn 19.10.13, Philly 21.10.13, Philly 22.10.13, San Diego 21.11.13, LA 23.11.13, LA 24.11.13, Oakland 26.11.13, Portland 29.11.13, Spokane 30.11.13, Calgary 02.12.13, Vancouver 04.12.13, Seattle 06.12.13, Trieste 22.06.14, Vienna 25.06.14, Berlin 26.06.14, Stockholm 28.06.14, Leeds 08.07.14, Philly 28.04.16, Philly 28.04.16, MSG1 01.05.16, MSG2 02.05.16
Also, has anyone been to the Falls and Shankill in Belfast? The respective murals really help put the mentality of each side into perspective.
The vast majority of the murals on the Falls (catholic) are remembering those who have been lost to the troubles (with a few exceptions). Most of the Murals on the Shankill are praising the most successful paramilitary members and have a much more aggressive feel to them (almost every one has men in masks holding weapons, etc). One thing that really really stuck out to me was when I crossed the wall from the falls to Shankill there was a bunch of grafitti on the Shankill side. And in big bold letters was "fuck peace" hastily spraypainted on the wall. Everyone I spoke to on the Falls side said all they wanted was peace and to have the same opportunities as everyone else.... I didnt feel safe sparking up random conversation on the other side of the wall.
been there, done that. exactly my thoughts and memories. respect. m.
_____________________________
Prague '95 (w/Neil Young), Warsaw '96, Seattle '98, Katowice x2 '00, Berlin '00, Berlin '06, Katowice '07, Copenhagen '07, Belfast '10, Berlin '10, Amsterdam '12, Prague'12, Berlin x2 '12, Vienna '14, Berlin '14..
So the Queen visited Ireland but did not say sorry to the Irish for England's crimes? :roll:
What is she doing there anyways?
It wasn't long ago that she was handing out medals to the soldiers that shot and killed innocent protesters on Bloody Sunday. Now she pays her respects to Irish freedom fighters? Those brave men and women must be turning in their graves.
:roll:
Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
So the Queen visited Ireland but did not say sorry to the Irish for England's crimes? :roll:
What is she doing there anyways?
It wasn't long ago that she was handing out medals to the soldiers that shot and killed innocent protesters on Bloody Sunday. Now she pays her respects to Irish freedom fighters? Those brave men and women must be turning in their graves.
:roll:
The past is past. Nothing changes if you keep focussing on the past instead of trying to build a better future. And the majority of the people on this island, north and south have decided that they are sick of strife and want to leave the past behind. If the queen, as a representative of the UK, is happy to do that too, I welcome it, and so it seems, do the majority of this country.
As to why she's here, President McAleese's speech before hers says it eloquently enough:
"It is my pleasure to welcome you to Dublin Castle this evening on this the first ever State Visit to take place between our two countries. This visit is a culmination of the success of the Peace Process. It is an acknowledgment that while we cannot change the past, we have chosen to change the future...
...It is only right that on this historic visit we should reflect on the difficult centuries which have brought us to this point. Inevitably where there are the colonisers and the colonised, the past is a repository of sources of bitter division. The harsh facts cannot be altered nor loss nor grief erased but with time and generosity, interpretations and perspectives can soften and open up space for new accommodations...
...I am deeply proud of Ireland's difficult journey to national sovereignty... I am particularly proud of this island's peace-makers who having experienced first-hand the appalling toxic harvest of failing to resolve old hatreds and political differences, rejected the perennial culture of conflict and compromised enough to let a new future in.
The Good Friday Agreement represented a fresh start and committed us all to partnership, equality and mutual respect as the basis of future relationships. Under the Agreement, unionism and nationalism were accorded equal recognition as political aspirations and philosophies. Northern Ireland's present status within the United Kingdom was solemnly recognised, as was the option for a united Ireland if that secures the agreement and consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland...
...The journey to peace has been cruelly slow and arduous but it has taken us to a place where hope thrives and the past no longer threatens to overwhelm our present and our future. The legacy of the Good Friday Agreement is already profound and encouraging. We all of us have a duty to protect, nurture and develop it.
Your Majesty, from our previous conversations I know of your deep support for the peace process and your longing to see relationships between our two countries sustained on a template of good neighbourliness. Your visit here is an important sign - among a growing number of signs - that we have embarked on the fresh start envisaged in the Good Friday Agreement. Your visit is a formal recognition of what has, for many years, been a reality – that Ireland and Britain are neighbours, equals, colleagues and friends.
Though the seas between us have often been stormy, we have chosen to build a solid and enduring bridge of friendship between us and to cross it to a new, a happier future.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
So the Queen visited Ireland but did not say sorry to the Irish for England's crimes? :roll:
What is she doing there anyways?
It wasn't long ago that she was handing out medals to the soldiers that shot and killed innocent protesters on Bloody Sunday. Now she pays her respects to Irish freedom fighters? Those brave men and women must be turning in their graves.
:roll:
The past is past. Nothing changes if you keep focussing on the past instead of trying to build a better future. And the majority of the people on this island, north and south have decided that they are sick of strife and want to leave the past behind. If the queen, as a representative of the UK, is happy to do that too, I welcome it, and so it seems, do the majority of this country.
As to why she's here, President McAleese's speech before hers says it eloquently enough:
"It is my pleasure to welcome you to Dublin Castle this evening on this the first ever State Visit to take place between our two countries. This visit is a culmination of the success of the Peace Process. It is an acknowledgment that while we cannot change the past, we have chosen to change the future...
...It is only right that on this historic visit we should reflect on the difficult centuries which have brought us to this point. Inevitably where there are the colonisers and the colonised, the past is a repository of sources of bitter division. The harsh facts cannot be altered nor loss nor grief erased but with time and generosity, interpretations and perspectives can soften and open up space for new accommodations...
...I am deeply proud of Ireland's difficult journey to national sovereignty... I am particularly proud of this island's peace-makers who having experienced first-hand the appalling toxic harvest of failing to resolve old hatreds and political differences, rejected the perennial culture of conflict and compromised enough to let a new future in.
The Good Friday Agreement represented a fresh start and committed us all to partnership, equality and mutual respect as the basis of future relationships. Under the Agreement, unionism and nationalism were accorded equal recognition as political aspirations and philosophies. Northern Ireland's present status within the United Kingdom was solemnly recognised, as was the option for a united Ireland if that secures the agreement and consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland...
...The journey to peace has been cruelly slow and arduous but it has taken us to a place where hope thrives and the past no longer threatens to overwhelm our present and our future. The legacy of the Good Friday Agreement is already profound and encouraging. We all of us have a duty to protect, nurture and develop it.
Your Majesty, from our previous conversations I know of your deep support for the peace process and your longing to see relationships between our two countries sustained on a template of good neighbourliness. Your visit here is an important sign - among a growing number of signs - that we have embarked on the fresh start envisaged in the Good Friday Agreement. Your visit is a formal recognition of what has, for many years, been a reality – that Ireland and Britain are neighbours, equals, colleagues and friends.
Though the seas between us have often been stormy, we have chosen to build a solid and enduring bridge of friendship between us and to cross it to a new, a happier future.
+1
living in the republic and having family and friends from both backgrounds i think i have a [pretty interesting insight to the troubles, the fast majority of people want peace, granted by the good Friday agreement, passed by both parts of the country, this means that the republic doesn't have a claim on the north, until the majority on both sides want to, and i think the vast majority of people feel this is the best option, in the south, the people protesting the queen total only about a 100 or so, it is the vast minority of people who want to disrupt this thing, and they are mainly gold chain, Nike air white tracksuit wearing, dutch gold drinking scumbags
living in the republic and having family and friends from both backgrounds i think i have a [pretty interesting insight to the troubles, the fast majority of people want peace, granted by the good Friday agreement, passed by both parts of the country, this means that the republic doesn't have a claim on the north, until the majority on both sides want to, and i think the vast majority of people feel this is the best option, in the south, the people protesting the queen total only about a 100 or so, it is the vast minority of people who want to disrupt this thing, and they are mainly gold chain, Nike air white tracksuit wearing, dutch gold drinking scumbags
whoever they are and no matter how many, there is no need to be condescending. it is their right to protest, even if there were only two of them. i saw some elderly, middle aged people on the streets, too. wouldn't call them scumbags myself.
_____________________________
Prague '95 (w/Neil Young), Warsaw '96, Seattle '98, Katowice x2 '00, Berlin '00, Berlin '06, Katowice '07, Copenhagen '07, Belfast '10, Berlin '10, Amsterdam '12, Prague'12, Berlin x2 '12, Vienna '14, Berlin '14..
living in the republic and having family and friends from both backgrounds i think i have a [pretty interesting insight to the troubles, the fast majority of people want peace, granted by the good Friday agreement, passed by both parts of the country, this means that the republic doesn't have a claim on the north, until the majority on both sides want to, and i think the vast majority of people feel this is the best option, in the south, the people protesting the queen total only about a 100 or so, it is the vast minority of people who want to disrupt this thing, and they are mainly gold chain, Nike air white tracksuit wearing, dutch gold drinking scumbags
whoever they are and no matter how many, there is no need to be condescending. it is their right to protest, even if there were only two of them. i saw some elderly, middle aged people on the streets, too. wouldn't call them scumbags myself.
+1
Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
living in the republic and having family and friends from both backgrounds i think i have a [pretty interesting insight to the troubles, the fast majority of people want peace, granted by the good Friday agreement, passed by both parts of the country, this means that the republic doesn't have a claim on the north, until the majority on both sides want to, and i think the vast majority of people feel this is the best option, in the south, the people protesting the queen total only about a 100 or so, it is the vast minority of people who want to disrupt this thing, and they are mainly gold chain, Nike air white tracksuit wearing, dutch gold drinking scumbags
whoever they are and no matter how many, there is no need to be condescending. it is their right to protest, even if there were only two of them. i saw some elderly, middle aged people on the streets, too. wouldn't call them scumbags myself.
i may be being a bit harsh but 90% of the people who ive seen at the protests seem to have a very basic understanding.
I've got to agree with satansbed and wolfamongwolves, i too am in the Republic and it's Northern Ireland's affair as to who's in charge.
a few points worth making;
1) There was an interesting point made earlier that if the North became part of the Republic it would bankrupt us - this may not be entirely true but the North is heavily subsidised by the UK: it doesn't pay for itself. Consequently the funding for roads, social benefits etc would decrease if it became part of the Republic. (that's a completely hypothetical situation to me).
2) Some posters mentioned "planted" people in Northern Ireland...describing Unionists in the North as "planters" is ridiculous, out-of-date, and does nothing but ignore reality. They've lived here for hundreds of years, they are Irish too. Their version of Irish may not coincide with an extreme republicans version of being Irish, but that's irrelevant. They are Irish, not "planters". For example, do many Americans still describe White people in the US who currently live in former native-Indian territories as "planters"?. Generations have passed, it's their home too, etc. Same thing as Israel & Palestine - They both have equal claim to it, they both view it as home, no need to pretend that isn't the case.
3) In general, the population is split 50-50 catholic/protestant and republican/unionist. Not all catholics are republican, and vice versa. Most Unionists live in "north east" Northern Ireland (Antrim, Down, East Tyrone, North Armagh), and the rest of the country is a buffer zone of sorts with a large Catholic majority with protestant areas within that. (eg Omagh, Kesh, parts of Derry, etc). The overall population split has always been roughly 50-50 (over the years the majority has shifted from Unionist majority to Catholic majority)...But this varies hugley depending on the county - any decision of the future of the country would need more than a marginal majority to avoid inciting more violence.
4) People need to remember that Northern Ireland voted itself out of the Irish Free State in 1922 - the British government didn't do it, the Northern politicians of the time did it.
5) Northern Ireland and the Republic have different cultures, small differences but differences nonetheless. They have been separate for almost a century, and whether people agree with that or not, it is the siutation now.
I personally think NI would be more likely to become independent itslef or become a Commonwealth dependency than to join the Republic...
Firstly, do you actually understand the term 'planter'? yes it is going back hundreds of years but can you define plantation in the terms british occupation?
Secondly, the financial mess, yes Northern ireland is subsidised by the Uk but Stormont is now currently running many of the financial responsibilities themselves. taxation et al are controlled by London at the moment. Maybe Irish unity could teach the idiots in charge of the Irish governments finances how to run their country sensibly. No-one can argue how stupid the Irish government were in dealing with the country's finances. When you are giving out over 140% of what you take in, that is pathetic! finances!
You mention that the people of the North voted themselves out of Irish unity in 1922, well in around that period the MAJORITY were Protestant in Northern ireland at that time! http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/ni/religion.htm
As for Northern Ireland's future, it's not a question of when Ireland will be united but WHEN! ]
Also, has anyone been to the Falls and Shankill in Belfast? The respective murals really help put the mentality of each side into perspective.
The vast majority of the murals on the Falls (catholic) are remembering those who have been lost to the troubles (with a few exceptions). Most of the Murals on the Shankill are praising the most successful paramilitary members and have a much more aggressive feel to them (almost every one has men in masks holding weapons, etc). One thing that really really stuck out to me was when I crossed the wall from the falls to Shankill there was a bunch of grafitti on the Shankill side. And in big bold letters was "fuck peace" hastily spraypainted on the wall. Everyone I spoke to on the Falls side said all they wanted was peace and to have the same opportunities as everyone else.... I didnt feel safe sparking up random conversation on the other side of the wall.
They are trying to hold on to the union! Politically they can feel their control which they dominated for so long slip, and now they fear having their links with the UK severed. This won't happen, but they use the threat of violence in their attempt to disrupt the political process which is working!
Comments
I'm not in China at the moment, I'm back in England now. Not that that's relevant.
Right. And I expect 99% of other English on this Messageboard will agree.
Well, initially you answered your own question. And yes you could say my opinion is biased somewhat as is most people who have an interest in a subject. My question to you was to justify sweeping statements suggesting 44.5 million people in England don't care. My experience is that this cannot be true.... it's just not feasible. And you haven't given me anything to suggest otherwise.
And you haven't given me anything to suggest that anyone other than a handful of people with direct links to Northern Ireland give a shit about the place.
Why did you live there? Do you have relatives there? Is that why you think the English care about Northern Ireland?
You may find people in places like Glasgow have an opinion on Northern Ireland, but most English couldn't care less about it.
I said that the majority of people in NI want to remain with the UK because of the election results of the last 40 years suggest this is true.
In further support of this I suggest you look at the very small amount of people who turned up to protest at the Queens visit today.. around 50 I believe were there at one point.
I lived in NI as the son of a British Army soldier, but this does not in anyway suggest I am biased towards the Union. I believe (as does my father) that the will of the people is strongest, and if the people want to be apart from the UK then they should be allowed. At this point nothing in elections has suggested a referendum should happen as the result would be a waste of time and tax payers money.
You have stated that "most" and "99%" of the English Population doesn't care, you haven't given ANY justification for that, you just respond asking me for mine. I think you have no idea what the population of England feel, you certainly do not speak for the vast majority of people I know. Most of whom have no connection to the conflict at all.
Up to this point you have offered no intelligent argument, only generalised assumptions with no basis. For that reason...... I'm out.
I didn't say the majority of the population of Northern Ireland couldn't care less. I said the majority of people in England couldn't care less.
Do you even know the difference between England and Northern Ireland?
And those people protesting at the Queens visit today were from the Irish Republic. The Queen visited Dublin today. Dublin is in the Republic of Ireland. It's not in Northern Ireland, and it's not in England. Would you like me to post a map so you can see what I'm talking about?
I said the majority of English couldn't give a toss about Northern Ireland and your response is to tell me how Protestants in Northern Ireland do give a toss. Not quite a credible, or even slightly relevant, response on your part.
I think you don't know what your talking about.
Both sides of the argument seem to have points. I wouldnt trust the data that suggests more than 50% of the voters in NI want to remain part of the UK and someone touched oupon why. Becasue many of those people are transplants, only in NI because their company can operate at a lower cost in NI. This skews that data in my opinion. These people would be British residents regardless... all their vote does is stack the deck.
If 99% of brits could care less about having NI and it is of no consequence to the British economy (from the way you describe it, NI seems to be a bane on whichever economy it is tied to) then what is the porblem... give them their country back.
If NI became part of RI I would agree that is would put the RI economy in deeper water, but that is not a viable excuse in my opinion to delay the transfer.
IMO, Britian is graping to its last straw of imperialism, I cant see an actual viable reason they still maintain control of NI.
I thought my aka was "genius".
Im staying away from four letter words and trying to keep it civil this time Byrnzie. My views on the West Bank have moved more towards yours in the last few years actually.
"Do we get to kill the English?"
O.k. Though this isn't 1948. We're now dealing with a new situation, post 1967. The parameters have changed.
Good to hear it. Care to elaborate?
The Queen better watch out for this dude....
This dude better watch out for these dudes:
The S.A.S
The vast majority of the murals on the Falls (catholic) are remembering those who have been lost to the troubles (with a few exceptions). Most of the Murals on the Shankill are praising the most successful paramilitary members and have a much more aggressive feel to them (almost every one has men in masks holding weapons, etc). One thing that really really stuck out to me was when I crossed the wall from the falls to Shankill there was a bunch of grafitti on the Shankill side. And in big bold letters was "fuck peace" hastily spraypainted on the wall. Everyone I spoke to on the Falls side said all they wanted was peace and to have the same opportunities as everyone else.... I didnt feel safe sparking up random conversation on the other side of the wall.
Anyway, we did the bus trip around the city and it was a real eye-opener to see the dividing wall between the streets. Incredible to see such a thing that's in part of the UK.
been there, done that. exactly my thoughts and memories. respect. m.
Prague '95 (w/Neil Young), Warsaw '96, Seattle '98, Katowice x2 '00, Berlin '00, Berlin '06, Katowice '07, Copenhagen '07, Belfast '10, Berlin '10, Amsterdam '12, Prague'12, Berlin x2 '12, Vienna '14, Berlin '14..
What is she doing there anyways?
It wasn't long ago that she was handing out medals to the soldiers that shot and killed innocent protesters on Bloody Sunday. Now she pays her respects to Irish freedom fighters? Those brave men and women must be turning in their graves.
:roll:
The past is past. Nothing changes if you keep focussing on the past instead of trying to build a better future. And the majority of the people on this island, north and south have decided that they are sick of strife and want to leave the past behind. If the queen, as a representative of the UK, is happy to do that too, I welcome it, and so it seems, do the majority of this country.
As to why she's here, President McAleese's speech before hers says it eloquently enough:
"It is my pleasure to welcome you to Dublin Castle this evening on this the first ever State Visit to take place between our two countries. This visit is a culmination of the success of the Peace Process. It is an acknowledgment that while we cannot change the past, we have chosen to change the future...
...It is only right that on this historic visit we should reflect on the difficult centuries which have brought us to this point. Inevitably where there are the colonisers and the colonised, the past is a repository of sources of bitter division. The harsh facts cannot be altered nor loss nor grief erased but with time and generosity, interpretations and perspectives can soften and open up space for new accommodations...
...I am deeply proud of Ireland's difficult journey to national sovereignty... I am particularly proud of this island's peace-makers who having experienced first-hand the appalling toxic harvest of failing to resolve old hatreds and political differences, rejected the perennial culture of conflict and compromised enough to let a new future in.
The Good Friday Agreement represented a fresh start and committed us all to partnership, equality and mutual respect as the basis of future relationships. Under the Agreement, unionism and nationalism were accorded equal recognition as political aspirations and philosophies. Northern Ireland's present status within the United Kingdom was solemnly recognised, as was the option for a united Ireland if that secures the agreement and consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland...
...The journey to peace has been cruelly slow and arduous but it has taken us to a place where hope thrives and the past no longer threatens to overwhelm our present and our future. The legacy of the Good Friday Agreement is already profound and encouraging. We all of us have a duty to protect, nurture and develop it.
Your Majesty, from our previous conversations I know of your deep support for the peace process and your longing to see relationships between our two countries sustained on a template of good neighbourliness. Your visit here is an important sign - among a growing number of signs - that we have embarked on the fresh start envisaged in the Good Friday Agreement. Your visit is a formal recognition of what has, for many years, been a reality – that Ireland and Britain are neighbours, equals, colleagues and friends.
Though the seas between us have often been stormy, we have chosen to build a solid and enduring bridge of friendship between us and to cross it to a new, a happier future.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
living in the republic and having family and friends from both backgrounds i think i have a [pretty interesting insight to the troubles, the fast majority of people want peace, granted by the good Friday agreement, passed by both parts of the country, this means that the republic doesn't have a claim on the north, until the majority on both sides want to, and i think the vast majority of people feel this is the best option, in the south, the people protesting the queen total only about a 100 or so, it is the vast minority of people who want to disrupt this thing, and they are mainly gold chain, Nike air white tracksuit wearing, dutch gold drinking scumbags
whoever they are and no matter how many, there is no need to be condescending. it is their right to protest, even if there were only two of them. i saw some elderly, middle aged people on the streets, too. wouldn't call them scumbags myself.
Prague '95 (w/Neil Young), Warsaw '96, Seattle '98, Katowice x2 '00, Berlin '00, Berlin '06, Katowice '07, Copenhagen '07, Belfast '10, Berlin '10, Amsterdam '12, Prague'12, Berlin x2 '12, Vienna '14, Berlin '14..
+1
i may be being a bit harsh but 90% of the people who ive seen at the protests seem to have a very basic understanding.
its people like this that annoy me so much
oh the irony
Fk Rangers boooo!
that guy was protesting outside a rugby match, in ireland, wearing a soccer jersey, talk about dumb
well soccer is an english sport
but i assuming you were being sarcastic
a few points worth making;
1) There was an interesting point made earlier that if the North became part of the Republic it would bankrupt us - this may not be entirely true but the North is heavily subsidised by the UK: it doesn't pay for itself. Consequently the funding for roads, social benefits etc would decrease if it became part of the Republic. (that's a completely hypothetical situation to me).
2) Some posters mentioned "planted" people in Northern Ireland...describing Unionists in the North as "planters" is ridiculous, out-of-date, and does nothing but ignore reality. They've lived here for hundreds of years, they are Irish too. Their version of Irish may not coincide with an extreme republicans version of being Irish, but that's irrelevant. They are Irish, not "planters". For example, do many Americans still describe White people in the US who currently live in former native-Indian territories as "planters"?. Generations have passed, it's their home too, etc. Same thing as Israel & Palestine - They both have equal claim to it, they both view it as home, no need to pretend that isn't the case.
3) In general, the population is split 50-50 catholic/protestant and republican/unionist. Not all catholics are republican, and vice versa. Most Unionists live in "north east" Northern Ireland (Antrim, Down, East Tyrone, North Armagh), and the rest of the country is a buffer zone of sorts with a large Catholic majority with protestant areas within that. (eg Omagh, Kesh, parts of Derry, etc). The overall population split has always been roughly 50-50 (over the years the majority has shifted from Unionist majority to Catholic majority)...But this varies hugley depending on the county - any decision of the future of the country would need more than a marginal majority to avoid inciting more violence.
4) People need to remember that Northern Ireland voted itself out of the Irish Free State in 1922 - the British government didn't do it, the Northern politicians of the time did it.
5) Northern Ireland and the Republic have different cultures, small differences but differences nonetheless. They have been separate for almost a century, and whether people agree with that or not, it is the siutation now.
I personally think NI would be more likely to become independent itslef or become a Commonwealth dependency than to join the Republic...
Secondly, the financial mess, yes Northern ireland is subsidised by the Uk but Stormont is now currently running many of the financial responsibilities themselves. taxation et al are controlled by London at the moment. Maybe Irish unity could teach the idiots in charge of the Irish governments finances how to run their country sensibly. No-one can argue how stupid the Irish government were in dealing with the country's finances. When you are giving out over 140% of what you take in, that is pathetic! finances!
You mention that the people of the North voted themselves out of Irish unity in 1922, well in around that period the MAJORITY were Protestant in Northern ireland at that time! http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/ni/religion.htm
As for Northern Ireland's future, it's not a question of when Ireland will be united but WHEN! ]
They are trying to hold on to the union! Politically they can feel their control which they dominated for so long slip, and now they fear having their links with the UK severed. This won't happen, but they use the threat of violence in their attempt to disrupt the political process which is working!