More harm caused by religious extremists

2

Comments

  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Yosi made a good point in the other thread about ideologies being the problem.

    Religions are o.k until they are misused.

    Communism also looks good on paper but in practice it becomes too easy for those in control to abuse the power they have - Lenin, Stalin, Mao Tse Dong.

    As soon as an ideology allows someone to commit an act of murder then we have a problem.

    Theodor Adorno wrote a pretty difficult-to-read book on this subject called Negative Dialectics, in which he basically posited that we should resist all ideologies as they are inherently dangerous and lead to the gas chambers. We should not allow any creed or ideology lead us beyond our basic humanity.
  • byttermanbytterman Posts: 136
    Byrnzie wrote:
    As soon as an ideology allows someone to commit an act of murder then we have a problem.

    Theodor Adorno wrote a pretty difficult-to-read book on this subject called Negative Dialectics, in which he basically posited that we should resist all ideologies as they are inherently dangerous and lead to the gas chambers. We should not allow any creed or ideology lead us beyond our basic humanity.

    I think ideologies become problems when they enable someone to think that they're better than someone else, killing is just the extreme outcome. I haven't read Adrono. It's an interesting idea but begging a question: is basic humanity defined universally? Is everyone born with same basic belief system? Dawkins would probably argue yes, but I'm not so sure.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    bytterman wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    As soon as an ideology allows someone to commit an act of murder then we have a problem.

    Theodor Adorno wrote a pretty difficult-to-read book on this subject called Negative Dialectics, in which he basically posited that we should resist all ideologies as they are inherently dangerous and lead to the gas chambers. We should not allow any creed or ideology lead us beyond our basic humanity.

    I think ideologies become problems when they enable someone to think that they're better than someone else, killing is just the extreme outcome. I haven't read Adrono. It's an interesting idea but begging a question: is basic humanity defined universally? Is everyone born with same basic belief system? Dawkins would probably argue yes, but I'm not so sure.

    'Belief systems' - i.e, ideologies - are the problem. Belief systems & ideologies are what allow people to justify mass murder. But all belief systems are ephemeral - temporal - and finally end up being made redundant.
    There's something fundamental about humans that has nothing to do with where our rationality often leads us in our search for a crutch - something simpler and truer than any creed, dogma, or ideology. 'Negative Dialectics' involves constant questioning, and never stopping at a fixed point from which we can elevate ourselves above others. It requires a perpetual revolution of the mind.
  • byttermanbytterman Posts: 136
    Byrnzie wrote:
    'Belief systems' - i.e, ideologies - are the problem. Belief systems & ideologies are what allow people to justify mass murder. But all belief systems are ephemeral - temporal - and finally end up being made redundant.
    There's something fundamental about humans that has nothing to do with where our rationality often leads us in our search for a crutch - something simpler and truer than any creed, dogma, or ideology. 'Negative Dialectics' involves constant questioning, and never stopping at a fixed point from which we can elevate ourselves above others. It requires a perpetual revolution of the mind.

    Constant questioning is the only way to learn anything, it's answers that cause the problems.
  • he still standshe still stands Posts: 2,835
    another way to say this is "model agnosticism." Personally, I'm agnostic about most concepts that require abstract thought, not just god(s).

    "I believe in everything - nothing is sacred...

    I believe in nothing - EVERYTHING is sacred." (Tom Robbins, Even Cowgirls Get the Blues)
    Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
  • Nothingman54Nothingman54 Posts: 2,251
    Let's kill the ones that are doing the killing. Because they won't hesitate to cutoff your head or your children. Weather your atheist or not they want your head.
    I'll be back
  • BinauralJamBinauralJam Posts: 14,158
    Let's kill the ones that are doing the killing. Because they won't hesitate to cutoff your head or your children. Weather your atheist or not they want your head.


    i love head
  • Nothingman54Nothingman54 Posts: 2,251
    Let's kill the ones that are doing the killing. Because they won't hesitate to cutoff your head or your children. Weather your atheist or not they want your head.


    i love head


    Don't we all
    I'll be back
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Let's kill the ones that are doing the killing. Because they won't hesitate to cutoff your head or your children. Weather your atheist or not they want your head.

    Murder the murderer?

    I don't believe this would solve anything, and it certainly wouldn't place you in any loftier position above the original murderer.

    Capital punishment is the sickest of all sick things.
  • GizGiz Posts: 6
    I would hope you live in another country.

    or else should move. We are all responsible for what the governement and leaders do. My guess is that you only grow your own food from seed and ride a bicycle everywhere and have no apple products? right. I think not.
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Giz wrote:
    So that takes away what they are doing now. I love people that live in the past. people should be beyond this, not having another religion start it all over again. enough with what happened 500 years ago. get a clue.

    I need to get a clue? Here's a clue for you which I hope you can comprehend: The Iraq war isn't the past, it's the present.
  • he still standshe still stands Posts: 2,835
    Let's kill the ones that are doing the killing. Because they won't hesitate to cutoff your head or your children. Weather your atheist or not they want your head.

    your anger is justified, but this is the synopsis of extreme violence throughout human history. To make a change, for a paradigm shift, there has to be evolution of emotional actions and reactions. We have to move BEYOND emotion and even beyond being controlled by our rational minds that have produced ham-fisted pragmatist dullness and our competitive nature...

    we must evolve to the point where we realize we are all equals and all one organism that needs to work together for the betterment of us all (not one person left behind) instead of raping and killing each other and the planet that gives us life.

    Evolution of consciousness.... GO. :!:
    Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Giz wrote:
    I would hope you live in another country.

    or else should move.

    Why should I move?
  • IdrisIdris Posts: 2,317

    we must evolve to the point where we realize we are all equals and all one organism that needs to work together for the betterment of us all (not one person left behind) instead of raping and killing each other and the planet that gives us life.

    Evolution of consciousness.... GO. :!:

    Like Maybe not so much an evolution of consciousness, rather 'the raising of consciousness', so remember friend, even early man (naturally) had the basic truth of working together and living within a balanced system.

    and Lowering our ego will raise our consciousness.

    Life is all about balance, harmony, like a musical instrument. Tune it too much in any direction and you tend to lose the balance, the harmony. But when the balance is found, and a note is hit, Played just right, how sweet the sound?
  • JonnyPistachioJonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    Are there as many forms of the devil as there are religions in the world?
    Do most religions even recognize a devil?

    It seems that there are so many religions and so many Gods, but the devil has remained somewhat consistent through the centuries. Something to think about... Maybe we spend too much time on Gods, and all the while, we are creating our own devils, death, destruction, and wars. :twisted:
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • Thoughts_ArriveThoughts_Arrive Melbourne, Australia Posts: 15,165
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • Thoughts_ArriveThoughts_Arrive Melbourne, Australia Posts: 15,165
    Byrnzie wrote:

    Don't know, I've seen it before so I googled it.
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • zarocatzarocat Posts: 1,901
    MrAbraham wrote:

    Like Maybe not so much an evolution of consciousness, rather 'the raising of consciousness', so remember friend, even early man (naturally) had the basic truth of working together and living within a balanced system.

    and Lowering our ego will raise our consciousness.

    Life is all about balance, harmony, like a musical instrument. Tune it too much in any direction and you tend to lose the balance, the harmony. But when the balance is found, and a note is hit, Played just right, how sweet the sound?
    1996: Toronto
    1998: Barrie
    2000: Montreal, Toronto, Auburn Hills
    2003: Cleveland, Buffalo, Toronto, Montreal
    2004: Boston X2, Grand Rapids
    2005: Kitchener, London, Hamilton, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto
    2006: Toronto X2
    2009: Toronto
    2011: PJ20, Montreal, Toronto X2, Hamilton
    2012: Manchester X2, Amsterdam X2, Prague, Berlin X2, Philadelphia, Missoula
    2013: Pittsburg, Buffalo
    2014: Milan, Trieste, Vienna, Berlin, Stockholm, Oslo, Detroit
    2016: Ottawa, Toronto X2
    2018: Padova, Rome, Prague, Krakow, Berlin, Barcelona
    2022: Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto
    2023: Chicago X2
    2024: New York X2
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    this is one of those funny e-mails going around.

    Godfather.


    A lady Canadian libertarian wrote a lot of letters to the government,
    complaining about the treatment of captive insurgents (terrorists)
    being held in Afghanistan National Correctional System facilities.

    She received back the following reply:

    National Defense Headquarters
    M Gen George R. Pearkes Bldg, 15 NT
    101 Colonel By Drive
    Ottawa , ON K1A 0K2
    Canada

    Dear Concerned Citizen,

    Thank you for your recent letter expressing your profound concern of
    treatment of the Taliban and Al Qaeda terrorists captured by Canadian
    Forces who were subsequently transferred to the Afghanistan
    Government and are currently being held by Afghan officials in
    Afghanistan National Correctional System facilities.

    Our administration takes these matters seriously and your opinions were
    heard loud and clear here in Ottawa.

    You will be pleased to learn, thanks to the concerns of citizens like
    yourself; we are creating a new department here at the Department of
    National De fence, to be called 'Liberals Accept Responsibility for
    Killers' program, or L.A.R.K. for short.

    In accordance with the guidelines of this new program, we have decided
    to divert one terrorist and place him in your personal care.

    Your personal detainee has been selected and is scheduled for
    transportation under heavily armed guard to your residence in Toronto
    next Monday.

    Ali Mohammed Ahmed bin Mahmud (you can just call him Ahmed) is to be
    cared for pursuant to the standards you personally demanded in your
    letter of complaint.

    It will likely be necessary for you to hire some assistant caretakers.
    We will conduct weekly inspections to ensure that your standards of
    care for Ahmed are commensurate with those you so strongly recommend in
    your letter.

    Although Ahmed is a sociopath and extremely violent, we hope that your
    sensitivity to what you described as his 'attitudinal problem' will
    help him overcome these character flaws.

    Perhaps you are correct in describing these problems as mere cultural
    differences.

    We understand that you plan to offer counseling and home schooling.

    Your adopted terrorist is extremely proficient in hand-to-hand combat
    and can extinguish human life with such simple items as a pencil or
    nail clippers.

    We advise that you do not ask him to demonstrate these skills at your
    next yoga group.

    He is also expert at making a wide variety of explosive devices from
    common household products, so you may wish to keep those items locked
    up, unless (in your opinion) this might offend him.

    Ahmed will not wish to interact with you or your daughters (except
    sexually) since he views females as a subhuman form of property.

    This is a particularly sensitive subject for him and he has been
    known to show violent tendencies around women who fail to comply with
    the new dress code that he will "recommend" as more appropriate attire.

    I'm sure you will come to enjoy the anonymity offered by the burka
    over time. Just remember that it is all part of 'respecting his
    culture and religious beliefs' as described in your letter.

    Thanks again for your concern. We truly appreciate it when folks like
    you keep us informed of the proper way to do our job and care for our
    fellow man.

    You take good care of Ahmed and remember we'll be watching.

    Good luck.

    Cordially,
    Gordon O'Connor
    Minister of National Defense
  • zarocatzarocat Posts: 1,901
    Godfather. wrote:
    this is one of those funny e-mails going around.

    Godfather.


    A lady Canadian libertarian wrote a lot of letters to the government,
    complaining about the treatment of captive insurgents (terrorists)
    being held in Afghanistan National Correctional System facilities.

    She received back the following reply:

    National Defense Headquarters
    M Gen George R. Pearkes Bldg, 15 NT
    101 Colonel By Drive
    Ottawa , ON K1A 0K2
    Canada

    Dear Concerned Citizen,

    Thank you for your recent letter expressing your profound concern of
    treatment of the Taliban and Al Qaeda terrorists captured by Canadian
    Forces who were subsequently transferred to the Afghanistan
    Government and are currently being held by Afghan officials in
    Afghanistan National Correctional System facilities.

    Our administration takes these matters seriously and your opinions were
    heard loud and clear here in Ottawa.

    You will be pleased to learn, thanks to the concerns of citizens like
    yourself; we are creating a new department here at the Department of
    National De fence, to be called 'Liberals Accept Responsibility for
    Killers' program, or L.A.R.K. for short.

    In accordance with the guidelines of this new program, we have decided
    to divert one terrorist and place him in your personal care.

    Your personal detainee has been selected and is scheduled for
    transportation under heavily armed guard to your residence in Toronto
    next Monday.

    Ali Mohammed Ahmed bin Mahmud (you can just call him Ahmed) is to be
    cared for pursuant to the standards you personally demanded in your
    letter of complaint.

    It will likely be necessary for you to hire some assistant caretakers.
    We will conduct weekly inspections to ensure that your standards of
    care for Ahmed are commensurate with those you so strongly recommend in
    your letter.

    Although Ahmed is a sociopath and extremely violent, we hope that your
    sensitivity to what you described as his 'attitudinal problem' will
    help him overcome these character flaws.

    Perhaps you are correct in describing these problems as mere cultural
    differences.

    We understand that you plan to offer counseling and home schooling.

    Your adopted terrorist is extremely proficient in hand-to-hand combat
    and can extinguish human life with such simple items as a pencil or
    nail clippers.

    We advise that you do not ask him to demonstrate these skills at your
    next yoga group.

    He is also expert at making a wide variety of explosive devices from
    common household products, so you may wish to keep those items locked
    up, unless (in your opinion) this might offend him.

    Ahmed will not wish to interact with you or your daughters (except
    sexually) since he views females as a subhuman form of property.

    This is a particularly sensitive subject for him and he has been
    known to show violent tendencies around women who fail to comply with
    the new dress code that he will "recommend" as more appropriate attire.

    I'm sure you will come to enjoy the anonymity offered by the burka
    over time. Just remember that it is all part of 'respecting his
    culture and religious beliefs' as described in your letter.

    Thanks again for your concern. We truly appreciate it when folks like
    you keep us informed of the proper way to do our job and care for our
    fellow man.

    You take good care of Ahmed and remember we'll be watching.

    Good luck.

    Cordially,
    Gordon O'Connor
    Minister of National Defense

    Though I see the humour in this spoof, I don't find it funny at all.
    1996: Toronto
    1998: Barrie
    2000: Montreal, Toronto, Auburn Hills
    2003: Cleveland, Buffalo, Toronto, Montreal
    2004: Boston X2, Grand Rapids
    2005: Kitchener, London, Hamilton, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto
    2006: Toronto X2
    2009: Toronto
    2011: PJ20, Montreal, Toronto X2, Hamilton
    2012: Manchester X2, Amsterdam X2, Prague, Berlin X2, Philadelphia, Missoula
    2013: Pittsburg, Buffalo
    2014: Milan, Trieste, Vienna, Berlin, Stockholm, Oslo, Detroit
    2016: Ottawa, Toronto X2
    2018: Padova, Rome, Prague, Krakow, Berlin, Barcelona
    2022: Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto
    2023: Chicago X2
    2024: New York X2
  • wolfamongwolveswolfamongwolves Posts: 2,414
    edited May 2011
    zarocat wrote:
    Though I see the humour in this spoof, I don't find it funny at all.
    Just what I was thinking. It's based on a simplistic (and I think, often deliberate) misinterpretation of what we're saying. It goes out of the way to try to be glib and critical, but really just illustrates how people who think up stuff like this profoundly and fundamentally miss the point.
    Post edited by wolfamongwolves on
    93: Slane
    96: Cork, Dublin
    00: Dublin
    06: London, Dublin
    07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
    09: Manchester, London
    10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
    11: San José
    12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    zarocat wrote:
    Godfather. wrote:
    this is one of those funny e-mails going around.

    Godfather.


    A lady Canadian libertarian wrote a lot of letters to the government,
    complaining about the treatment of captive insurgents (terrorists)
    being held in Afghanistan National Correctional System facilities.

    She received back the following reply:

    National Defense Headquarters
    M Gen George R. Pearkes Bldg, 15 NT
    101 Colonel By Drive
    Ottawa , ON K1A 0K2
    Canada

    Dear Concerned Citizen,

    Thank you for your recent letter expressing your profound concern of
    treatment of the Taliban and Al Qaeda terrorists captured by Canadian
    Forces who were subsequently transferred to the Afghanistan
    Government and are currently being held by Afghan officials in
    Afghanistan National Correctional System facilities.

    Our administration takes these matters seriously and your opinions were
    heard loud and clear here in Ottawa.

    You will be pleased to learn, thanks to the concerns of citizens like
    yourself; we are creating a new department here at the Department of
    National De fence, to be called 'Liberals Accept Responsibility for
    Killers' program, or L.A.R.K. for short.

    In accordance with the guidelines of this new program, we have decided
    to divert one terrorist and place him in your personal care.

    Your personal detainee has been selected and is scheduled for
    transportation under heavily armed guard to your residence in Toronto
    next Monday.

    Ali Mohammed Ahmed bin Mahmud (you can just call him Ahmed) is to be
    cared for pursuant to the standards you personally demanded in your
    letter of complaint.

    It will likely be necessary for you to hire some assistant caretakers.
    We will conduct weekly inspections to ensure that your standards of
    care for Ahmed are commensurate with those you so strongly recommend in
    your letter.

    Although Ahmed is a sociopath and extremely violent, we hope that your
    sensitivity to what you described as his 'attitudinal problem' will
    help him overcome these character flaws.

    Perhaps you are correct in describing these problems as mere cultural
    differences.

    We understand that you plan to offer counseling and home schooling.

    Your adopted terrorist is extremely proficient in hand-to-hand combat
    and can extinguish human life with such simple items as a pencil or
    nail clippers.

    We advise that you do not ask him to demonstrate these skills at your
    next yoga group.

    He is also expert at making a wide variety of explosive devices from
    common household products, so you may wish to keep those items locked
    up, unless (in your opinion) this might offend him.

    Ahmed will not wish to interact with you or your daughters (except
    sexually) since he views females as a subhuman form of property.

    This is a particularly sensitive subject for him and he has been
    known to show violent tendencies around women who fail to comply with
    the new dress code that he will "recommend" as more appropriate attire.

    I'm sure you will come to enjoy the anonymity offered by the burka
    over time. Just remember that it is all part of 'respecting his
    culture and religious beliefs' as described in your letter.

    Thanks again for your concern. We truly appreciate it when folks like
    you keep us informed of the proper way to do our job and care for our
    fellow man.

    You take good care of Ahmed and remember we'll be watching.

    Good luck.

    Cordially,
    Gordon O'Connor
    Minister of National Defense

    Though I see the humour in this spoof, I don't find it funny at all.

    I didn't mean to offend you sorry.

    Godfather.
  • ajedigeckoajedigecko \m/deplorable af \m/ Posts: 2,430
    godfather.....

    do not hurt people's... internet feelings.
    live and let live...unless it violates the pearligious doctrine.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    If these so-called 'terrorists' captured in Afghanistan and held in Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo are such obviously dangerous criminals, then why have next to none of them been charged with anything after years of detention and interrogation?

    Not that I mean to burst the bubble of your silly fantasy above, Godfather, but if you can please provide me with an answer to this question I'll be grateful.
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    Byrnzie wrote:
    If these so-called 'terrorists' captured in Afghanistan and held in Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo are such obviously dangerous criminals, then why have next to none of them been charged with anything after years of detention and interrogation?

    Not that I mean to burst the bubble of your silly fantasy above, Godfather, but if you can please provide me with an answer to this question I'll be grateful.

    ha ha ha I like your style Byrnzie,the post was ment as a joke just lightin the mood around here but the best answer that I can give is that they are prisoners of war so to speak and so what's the hurry ? only the people involved in these government's know of their involvment that lad to to their capture so maybe they have the "let em rot in there" atitude....it could happen. :lol:
    but I'm not one of those people that believe that the inmates are being held with out reason,mabe they are and mabe not..I don't know ..do you ?

    Godfather.
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    ajedigecko wrote:
    godfather.....

    do not hurt people's... internet feelings.

    please accept my deepest .....internet apologies. ;):lol:

    Godfather.
  • ajedigeckoajedigecko \m/deplorable af \m/ Posts: 2,430
    Godfather. wrote:
    ajedigecko wrote:
    godfather.....

    do not hurt people's... internet feelings.

    please accept my deepest .....internet apologies. ;):lol:

    Godfather.
    awww........how could i ever stay internet mad at you.
    live and let live...unless it violates the pearligious doctrine.
  • Nothingman54Nothingman54 Posts: 2,251
    Let's kill the ones that are doing the killing. Because they won't hesitate to cutoff your head or your children. Weather your atheist or not they want your head.

    your anger is justified, but this is the synopsis of extreme violence throughout human history. To make a change, for a paradigm shift, there has to be evolution of emotional actions and reactions. We have to move BEYOND emotion and even beyond being controlled by our rational minds that have produced ham-fisted pragmatist dullness and our competitive nature...

    we must evolve to the point where we realize we are all equals and all one organism that needs to work together for the betterment of us all (not one person left behind) instead of raping and killing each other and the planet that gives us life.

    Evolution of consciousness.... GO. :!:


    I agree 100% but these guys have no care for that and want you head and my head so. They have no rules or moals, they want to kill anybody that is not like them. It's called get them before they get us.
    I'll be back
  • ShimmyMommyShimmyMommy Posts: 7,505
    your anger is justified, but this is the synopsis of extreme violence throughout human history. To make a change, for a paradigm shift, there has to be evolution of emotional actions and reactions. We have to move BEYOND emotion and even beyond being controlled by our rational minds that have produced ham-fisted pragmatist dullness and our competitive nature...

    we must evolve to the point where we realize we are all equals and all one organism that needs to work together for the betterment of us all (not one person left behind) instead of raping and killing each other and the planet that gives us life.

    Evolution of consciousness.... GO. :!:

    THIS...it applies to ALL of us. :clap:
    Lots of love, light and hugs to you all!
  • ajedigeckoajedigecko \m/deplorable af \m/ Posts: 2,430
    your anger is justified, but this is the synopsis of extreme violence throughout human history. To make a change, for a paradigm shift, there has to be evolution of emotional actions and reactions. We have to move BEYOND emotion and even beyond being controlled by our rational minds that have produced ham-fisted pragmatist dullness and our competitive nature...

    we must evolve to the point where we realize we are all equals and all one organism that needs to work together for the betterment of us all (not one person left behind) instead of raping and killing each other and the planet that gives us life.

    Evolution of consciousness.... GO. :!:

    THIS...it applies to ALL of us. :clap:
    no.
    there are many aspects/personalities/traits....i have no tolerance for. i am ok with that. frankly....i do not want to understand them.
    live and let live...unless it violates the pearligious doctrine.
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