bowling for columbine

Eraserhead

This was the first time I'd heard Marilyn Manson speak in an interview. I knew he was a pretty switched on guy, but the snippet from BfC showed just how bright he is.

butterjam

And who is it that is committing these crimes? Is it law abiding citizens with concealed carry permits, or people with a criminal history?

I'm not denying the amount of deaths, including suicides, caused by guns. Its awful. But what is to be done about it? Pandora's box is open. Simply banning all guns will not work. Criminals will get their hands onto guns no matter what we do.

Byrnzie

311jj wrote:

What I was calling into question was that schools were getting shot up every other week.

O.k, it looks like the average over the last 10 years amounts to approx one every two weeks:

http://www.schoolsecurity.org/trends/sc ... lence.html

For purposes of this monitoring report, school-associated violent deaths are homicides, suicides, or other violent, non-accidental deaths in the United States in which a fatal injury occurs:

1) inside a school, on school property, on or immediately around (and associated with) a school bus, or in the immediate area (and associated with) a K-12 elementary or secondary public, private, or parochial school;

2)on the way to or from a school for a school session;

3)while attending, or on the way to or from, a school-sponsored event;

4) as a clear result of school-related incidents/conflicts, functions, activities, regardless of whether on or off actual school property;

Shootings:

1999-2000 = 10
2000-2001 = 14
2001-2002 = 5
2002-2003 = 3
2003-2004 = 23
2004-2005 = 24
2005-2006 = 15
2006-2007 = 13
2007-2008 = 8
2008-2009 = 8
2009-2010 = 7

butterjam

That's 130 deaths over an 11 year period, which is about one every month. And I'm assuming that some shooting incidents resulted in more than one death.

Again, I was just questioning that every other week there is a shooting spree. It just seemed a little overblown. It goes back to my assertion that if you have an agenda, you will twist facts around to fit it. Yes, something needs to be done about our gun laws. But having them shaped by the ultra left or NRA is not a solution to me.

Blockhead

Byrnzie wrote:

311jj wrote:

What I was calling into question was that schools were getting shot up every other week.

O.k, it looks like the average over the last 10 years amounts to approx one every two weeks:

http://www.schoolsecurity.org/trends/sc ... lence.html

For purposes of this monitoring report, school-associated violent deaths are homicides, suicides, or other violent, non-accidental deaths in the United States in which a fatal injury occurs:

1) inside a school, on school property, on or immediately around (and associated with) a school bus, or in the immediate area (and associated with) a K-12 elementary or secondary public, private, or parochial school;

2)on the way to or from a school for a school session;

3)while attending, or on the way to or from, a school-sponsored event;

4) as a clear result of school-related incidents/conflicts, functions, activities, regardless of whether on or off actual school property; Shootings:

1999-2000 = 10
2000-2001 = 14
2001-2002 = 5
2002-2003 = 3
2003-2004 = 23
2004-2005 = 24
2005-2006 = 15
2006-2007 = 13
2007-2008 = 8
2008-2009 = 8
2009-2010 = 7

WOW, what a blanket statement... You could drum up every single murder by kids under 18 by using that statement...

Byrnzie

311jj wrote:

That's 130 deaths over an 11 year period, which is about one every month. And I'm assuming that some shooting incidents resulted in more than one death.

Those figures were just of schools. If we include colleges & Universities then the number increases:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=9603275

Timeline: Shootings at U.S. College Campuses

April 16, 2007

Monday's campus shooting at Virginia Tech was the deadliest in U.S. history. Here, a list of other fatal shootings that have occurred at U.S. colleges and universities over the past several decades:

April 16, 2007: A gunman kills more than 30 people in a dorm and a classroom at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va.

Sept. 2, 2006: Douglas W. Pennington, 49, kills himself and his two sons, Logan P. Pennington, 26, and Benjamin M. Pennington, 24, during a visit to the campus of Shepherd University in Shepherdstown, W.Va.

Oct. 28, 2002: Failing University of Arizona Nursing College student and Gulf War veteran Robert Flores, 40, walks into an instructor's office and fatally shoots her. A few minutes later, armed with five guns, he enters one of his nursing classrooms and kills two more of his instructors before fatally shooting himself.

Jan. 16, 2002: Graduate student Peter Odighizuwa, 42, recently dismissed from Virginia's Appalachian School of Law, returns to campus and kills the dean, a professor and a student before being tackled by students. The attack also wounds three female students.

Aug. 28, 2000: James Easton Kelly, 36, a University of Arkansas graduate student recently dropped from a doctoral program after a decade of study, and John Locke, 67, the English professor overseeing his coursework, are shot to death in an apparent murder-suicide.

Aug. 15, 1996: Frederick Martin Davidson, 36, a graduate engineering student at San Diego State, is defending his thesis before a faculty committee when he pulls out a handgun and kills three professors.

Nov. 1, 1991: Gang Lu, 28, a graduate student in physics from China, reportedly upset because he was passed over for an academic honor, opens fire in two buildings on the University of Iowa campus. Five University of Iowa employees are killed, including four members of the Physics Department; two other people are wounded. The student fatally shoots himself.

Aug. 1, 1966: Charles Whitman points a rifle from the observation deck of the University of Texas at Austin's Tower and begins shooting in a homicidal rampage that goes on for 96 minutes. Sixteen people are killed, including his wife and mother, who were shot the night before; 31 others are wounded.

cincybearcat

Personally, I thought Bowling for Columbine was a terrible documentary.

That said, I am still firmly on the More gun control side of this argument. NO matter if it's 1 shooting every month, or 2 weeks, who cares? It's way too many and it's increased the level of violence inflicted during "school-related conflicts". The conflicts aren't new, but the outcomes have become far more severe and spread to more people (bystanders).

I'm surprised that we are still debating the validity of the argument rather than trying to figure out what to do to make our kids safer.

butterjam

Sure, but not to the levels at which you were implying.

What is your suggestion to lower the gun deaths here in the US?

cincybearcat

311jj wrote:

Sure, but not to the levels at which you were implying.

What is your suggestion to lower the gun deaths here in the US?

Are you asking me? I didn't imply any statistics.

What would I do? End swap meet sales and gun show sales of guns. Require 1 month waiting period after application for a firearm license that includes an extensive background check. Require a practical test to receive a license to have a gun. And make all penalties for failure to comply with the new laws extremely harsh. But that is off the top of my head. Oh, and limited the types of firearms that can be used legal greater than it already is.

Blockhead

cincybearcat wrote:

311jj wrote:

Sure, but not to the levels at which you were implying.

What is your suggestion to lower the gun deaths here in the US?

Are you asking me? I didn't imply any statistics.

What would I do? End swap meet sales and gun show sales of guns. Require 1 month waiting period after application for a firearm license that includes an extensive background check. Require a practical test to receive a license to have a gun. And make all penalties for failure to comply with the new laws extremely harsh. But that is off the top of my head. Oh, and limited the types of firearms that can be used legal greater than it already is.

I agree that we need sticter regulations / annual testing/renewals. That being said people arent born criminals, so people can have a clean record take all these requirements/testing/ regulations and still go on a shooting spree once they receive a gun. Its not logical to disarm the public/ law abiding citizens...

Byrnzie

cincybearcat wrote:

Personally, I thought Bowling for Columbine was a terrible documentary.

I know it's fashionable to dsilike Michael Moore, but I don't think we should overlook the fact that it did a great deal for Documentary film making worldwide, and that it won the Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature, the Independent Spirit Award for Best Documentary Feature, a special 55th Anniversary Prize at the 2002 Cannes Film Festival[2] and the César Award for Best Foreign Film.

fife

cincybearcat wrote:

311jj wrote:

Sure, but not to the levels at which you were implying.

What is your suggestion to lower the gun deaths here in the US?

Are you asking me? I didn't imply any statistics.

What would I do? End swap meet sales and gun show sales of guns. Require 1 month waiting period after application for a firearm license that includes an extensive background check. Require a practical test to receive a license to have a gun. And make all penalties for failure to comply with the new laws extremely harsh. But that is off the top of my head. Oh, and limited the types of firearms that can be used legal greater than it already is.

I don't think it just about owning guns, its about a mentality that people have. Canada has almost the same amount of guns per capital as the America but our death tole is less. why? While i agree that limiting guns is a part of the answer we also have to look at the peopel owing these guns and ask ourselves why they use them more ofter to kill other people

cincybearcat

Byrnzie wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

Personally, I thought Bowling for Columbine was a terrible documentary.

I know it's fashionable to dsilike Michael Moore, but I don't think we should overlook the fact that it did a great deal for Documentary film making worldwide, and that it won the Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature, the Independent Spirit Award for Best Documentary Feature, a special 55th Anniversary Prize at the 2002 Cannes Film Festival[2] and the César Award for Best Foreign Film.

It's also ok to not like Michael Moore and his version of what a documentary is. I've seen most of his. Like Roger and Me. Disliked the rest.

It did highlight the documentary field to more people...but you could argue that it's a bad thing it was his version of what it is. I just don't like his style nor his pompous attitude, regardless of what the topic is...He doesn't generate discussion by showing facts, he manipulates situations to try and prove his preconceived point of view.

All that aside, I agree with his belief we need better gun control.

Byrnzie

cincybearcat wrote:

It's also ok to not like Michael Moore and his version of what a documentary is. I've seen most of his. Like Roger and Me. Disliked the rest.

It did highlight the documentary field to more people...but you could argue that it's a bad thing it was his version of what it is. I just don't like his style nor his pompous attitude, regardless of what the topic is...He doesn't generate discussion by showing facts, he manipulates situations to try and prove his preconceived point of view.

All that aside, I agree with his belief we need better gun control.

Fair enough.

PJPOWER

Meth is illegal...people still obtain meth and kill themselves and their children on a daily basis. I fail to see how making guns illegal is going to prevent the wrong people from getting their hands on them. Maybe we should look into the motivation for these crimes a little more...decrease bullying, take a stance against violent media that glamorizes killing, watch your kids and make sure they're not out torturing the neighbor's cat, etc... I actually believe that there should be more guns in schools in the hands of responsible adults that can decrease body counts if some dumb fuck decides to come in and try killing our kids...

polaris_x

fife wrote:

I don't think it just about owning guns, its about a mentality that people have. Canada has almost the same amount of guns per capital as the America but our death tole is less. why? While i agree that limiting guns is a part of the answer we also have to look at the peopel owing these guns and ask ourselves why they use them more ofter to kill other people

bingo ...

it's a cultural thing ... is it any wonder that a country that spends the most on arms worldwide and is involved in the most conflicts has a gun problem? ...

i mean ... you watch tv at night and you can see people getting shot up but you can't see a female breast ... it's a place that glorifies violence to a degree ... the old wild west, cowboy mentality ... it's a country that deems it so important that its part of their constitution ...

it's a country that still has capital punishment ... violence begets violence ... it's a vicious cycle ...

Blockhead

polaris_x wrote:

fife wrote:

I don't think it just about owning guns, its about a mentality that people have. Canada has almost the same amount of guns per capital as the America but our death tole is less. why? While i agree that limiting guns is a part of the answer we also have to look at the peopel owing these guns and ask ourselves why they use them more ofter to kill other people

bingo ...

it's a cultural thing ... is it any wonder that a country that spends the most on arms worldwide and is involved in the most conflicts has a gun problem? ...

i mean ... you watch tv at night and you can see people getting shot up but you can't see a female breast ... it's a place that glorifies violence to a degree ... the old wild west, cowboy mentality ... it's a country that deems it so important that its part of their constitution ...

it's a country that still has capital punishment ... violence begets violence ... it's a vicious cycle ...

Yes, its clearly this simple... :roll:
I watched alot of violent cartoons growing up (x-men, heman, TMNT, Hulk, Star Wars, etc) I also played with toy guns, knives, martial arts wepons, etc... Its amazing that I havent killed anybody yet.

gimmesometruth27

cincybearcat wrote:

311jj wrote:

Sure, but not to the levels at which you were implying.

What is your suggestion to lower the gun deaths here in the US?

Are you asking me? I didn't imply any statistics.

What would I do? End swap meet sales and gun show sales of guns. Require 1 month waiting period after application for a firearm license that includes an extensive background check. Require a practical test to receive a license to have a gun. And make all penalties for failure to comply with the new laws extremely harsh. But that is off the top of my head. Oh, and limited the types of firearms that can be used legal greater than it already is.

this is a good start. i would also suggest psychological testing, like a questionnaire or something to look for things like aggressive tendencies, violent tendencies, depression, antisocial behavior and disqualify those demonstrating these tendencies from purchasing and carrying guns.

polaris_x

Blockhead wrote:

Yes, its clearly this simple... :roll:
I watched alot of violent cartoons growing up (x-men, heman, TMNT, Hulk, Star Wars, etc) I also played with toy guns, knives, martial arts wepons, etc... Its amazing that I havent killed anybody yet.

no ... but do you have issues with using violence to resolve issues?

JonnyPistachio

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

311jj wrote:

Sure, but not to the levels at which you were implying.

What is your suggestion to lower the gun deaths here in the US?

Are you asking me? I didn't imply any statistics.

What would I do? End swap meet sales and gun show sales of guns. Require 1 month waiting period after application for a firearm license that includes an extensive background check. Require a practical test to receive a license to have a gun. And make all penalties for failure to comply with the new laws extremely harsh. But that is off the top of my head. Oh, and limited the types of firearms that can be used legal greater than it already is.

this is a good start. i would also suggest psychological testing, like a questionnaire or something to look for things like aggressive tendencies, violent tendencies, depression, antisocial behavior and disqualify those demonstrating these tendencies from purchasing and carrying guns.

I agree with both of you. And especially limiting the types of firearms that can be purchased. I thought it was also painfully obvious after the AZ shootings that a reduction in magazine limits could've saved lives that day (and in many many other circumstances where he shooter is immobilized while reloading).