The Donald

callen

Sure he had opportunity. Egypt Syria lybia staying in Afganistan keeping surge going in Iraq.

War criminal? . Really?

Negotiating with Iran. Talking to Cuba.

Shit list goes on and on.

Perfect no. Drones killing innocents sure. TPP treaty well?

But considering the options he's had and the shit sand which he was served give him credit.

Add staying out of Colorado, Ability to buy healthcare, getting rid of DADT, supporting same sex couples(eventually).

Idris

callen said:

Sure he had opportunity. Egypt Syria lybia staying in Afganistan keeping surge going in Iraq.

War criminal? . Really?

Negotiating with Iran. Talking to Cuba.

Shit list goes on and on.

Perfect no. Drones killing innocents sure. TPP treaty well?

But considering the options he's had and the shit sand which he was served give him credit.

Add staying out of Colorado, Ability to buy healthcare, getting rid of DADT, supporting same sex couples(eventually).

Yes, Really. War Criminal.

Staying out of Colorado? Same sex marriage etc are those really his achievements? He allowed the people of Colorado to do what? To Do something that should not of been illegal in the first place. He can flip-flop about the herb now, but early in his presidency, he was very much against it (even for medical use). (should I bring up the stories, articles?)

We can soon eat McDonalds In cuba, Yay!

So he may not of sent thousands of ground troops into war, OMG, what a mighty good man. He Just bombed the shit out of them instead. Soooo much better. Supported corrupt governments and used their troops to slaughter and uphold corrupt systems/laws.

Are you even aware that Obama's (dems) actions/ policies partly led to the continued mess we had/have in Iraq. This notion that Obama ended the war in Iraq is a joke. A very bad joke.

YES, a WAR Criminal. A Hypocrite, an Uncle Tom to the giant Corporations. (I can continue?)

Idris

Drowned Out said:

Idris said:

callen said:

Think Obama did his best to limit death under his presidency and that can't be said for past republican presidents or new crop of challengers. To imply he's a war monger is flat out wrong. To be fair to Trump don't know his views.

Callen!

I'm NOT implying that Obama is a 'Warmonger'. A straight up 'War Criminal'? Well, that's another story. And one does NOT(really) need to be a 'Warmonger' in order to be a War Criminal. (But sure, they (obviously) can/do go hand in hand)

So Obama did his best to limit death? Sure less innocents were killed under Obama than Bush. So Let's give him another Peace Prize.

Does it make his crimes (and that of his party and followers) less horrific? The thousands of innocents that were killed by US/led air strikes, Obama and his "Targeted" Drone Strikes killing Children, creating more Terrorists. War Monger? I dunno, War Criminal, I do say so. and hope he one day stands trial. and I'm confident he would be found guilty. and THAT...THAT will (should) prevent future Presidents from doing the same shit, they will think deeply and clearly before they drop a bomb, spy on us, lie to us or whatever else it is they do/have done.

bravo. Pretty easy to not start another war when your country is dead set against one, is drowning in debt, and war-fatigued already. Instead, you rely on technology (drones), allies (Libya), and proxies (ISIS, neo nazis etc) to expand the 'theatre' and continue the imperial march toward world domination...or whatever.....meanwhile, BRICS and the rest of the developing world not already under your sphere of influence, are making plans to move forward without you....
It took 9/11 to get Bush the support he needed for his wars. I don't think Obama should be thanked for not taking the US into another GROUND war as he never really had an opportunity to do so.

We should just thank him for slaughtering less innocent people compared to his predecessor. *Roll Eyes*

Drowned Out

I know it means nothing....but he campaigned on getting out of Iraq, no?
Why would he have gone into Egypt? Not a strategically smart move to allow that country to fragment - suez is too important, and they've been pretty good to Israel. Not all that up to speed on Egypt, honestly...but I'm not sure where the opportunity to go to war there was?
Libya was powerless enough to let a no-fly zone and a small NATO force take it out...He wouldn't risk reelection by going balls deep into Libya.
Syria? Man....we know for a fact that the US has aided the opposition there, directly and by proxy, against Assad (many of the same ones they used in Libya), and that regime change / balkanization has been the plan for that country (along with Iraq) for years. So what are we thanking him for there? Propping up religious extremists instead of sending americans? That's a coward's war, and a big f'n gamble if you ask me. And again, like Egypt....even with a massive MSM PR campaign, it would have been hugely unpopular to get involved any more than we already were (and you can bet they were looking to control outcomes the second any uprising began).
Iran? War with Iran will still happen eventually...I think it's about 8 years out.....or maybe second term for the next prez. Call me a cynic, but I think the negotiations are a stall tactic. They need to finish up in Syria before that starts.
If we're reviewing his FP, Ukraine needs to be factored into the discussion as well.
Let's not pretend that ANY of these conflicts happen without US guidance and/or acceptance.

Yes, war criminal. google it, man. lots of fodder. Ralph Nader. Politico. The Guardian. RT ( )...have all written about it.

I've gotta say....I find it tough to reconcile your support for obama's foreign policy, the sports/choosing a team analogies you use, and your knowledge of the military industrial complex; the system that controls these policies. You know as well as anyone that most of these moves are never what they seem to be; they are long-term, multi-administration plans. Strategery. Yes, it's almost a given that the approach taken by a neocon prez would have been bloodier....so ok, I will give him credit as a lesser evil....but lets not pretend Obama has changed anything in regards to US FP, aside from showing a little more restraint than (some) others have in the past.

Jury is still out on Cuba for me....on the surface I'm glad they're talking. But I haven't really looked into why. Maybe it's like the domestic stuff you listed: commendable, yes....but do I really have to give him credit for following public opinion? Has it come to that in our modern version of 'democracy'?

Drowned Out

Idris said:

Drowned Out said:

Idris said:

callen said:

Think Obama did his best to limit death under his presidency and that can't be said for past republican presidents or new crop of challengers. To imply he's a war monger is flat out wrong. To be fair to Trump don't know his views.

Callen!

I'm NOT implying that Obama is a 'Warmonger'. A straight up 'War Criminal'? Well, that's another story. And one does NOT(really) need to be a 'Warmonger' in order to be a War Criminal. (But sure, they (obviously) can/do go hand in hand)

So Obama did his best to limit death? Sure less innocents were killed under Obama than Bush. So Let's give him another Peace Prize.

Does it make his crimes (and that of his party and followers) less horrific? The thousands of innocents that were killed by US/led air strikes, Obama and his "Targeted" Drone Strikes killing Children, creating more Terrorists. War Monger? I dunno, War Criminal, I do say so. and hope he one day stands trial. and I'm confident he would be found guilty. and THAT...THAT will (should) prevent future Presidents from doing the same shit, they will think deeply and clearly before they drop a bomb, spy on us, lie to us or whatever else it is they do/have done.

bravo. Pretty easy to not start another war when your country is dead set against one, is drowning in debt, and war-fatigued already. Instead, you rely on technology (drones), allies (Libya), and proxies (ISIS, neo nazis etc) to expand the 'theatre' and continue the imperial march toward world domination...or whatever.....meanwhile, BRICS and the rest of the developing world not already under your sphere of influence, are making plans to move forward without you....
It took 9/11 to get Bush the support he needed for his wars. I don't think Obama should be thanked for not taking the US into another GROUND war as he never really had an opportunity to do so.

We should just thank him for slaughtering less innocent people compared to his predecessor. *Roll Eyes*

ya, we're on the same page. just posted from my drafts before seeing your posts.

callen

Idris said:

callen said:

Sure he had opportunity. Egypt Syria lybia staying in Afganistan keeping surge going in Iraq.

War criminal? . Really?

Negotiating with Iran. Talking to Cuba.

Shit list goes on and on.

Perfect no. Drones killing innocents sure. TPP treaty well?

But considering the options he's had and the shit sand which he was served give him credit.

Add staying out of Colorado, Ability to buy healthcare, getting rid of DADT, supporting same sex couples(eventually).

Yes, Really. War Criminal.

Staying out of Colorado? Same sex marriage etc are those really his achievements? He allowed the people of Colorado to do what? To Do something that should not of been illegal in the first place. He can flip-flop about the herb now, but early in his presidency, he was very much against it (even for medical use). (should I bring up the stories, articles?)

We can soon eat McDonalds In cuba, Yay!

So he may not of sent thousands of ground troops into war, OMG, what a mighty good man. He Just bombed the shit out of them instead. Soooo much better. Supported corrupt governments and used their troops to slaughter and uphold corrupt systems/laws.

Are you even aware that Obama's (dems) actions/ policies partly led to the continued mess we had/have in Iraq. This notion that Obama ended the war in Iraq is a joke. A very bad joke.

YES, a WAR Criminal. A Hypocrite, an Uncle Tom to the giant Corporations. (I can continue?)

Okay this will be tough typing on my small phone.

Pot. Yes he told his administration to let it be. Get one of the right wingers in there and see what happens. What's Jebs stance ? I know. Yes obviously it should of never been illegal but guess what it was and still is.

Repealed DADT. AGREED with Supreme Court. Lot up the freakin White House! Come on. What's Cruz's position?

Wars. Already explained.

He repealed DADT. remember. If you think it's a mess due to withdrawal take your ass over and fight the Evildoers.

At bus stop gotta get off.

usamamasan1

In a statement Tuesday, Trump called Clinton a “desperate” and “sad” candidate, asserting that she is going after him because he is now “her real competition.”

Trump, who claims to have fielded threats from escaped Mexican drug cartel leader Joaquin “El Chapo” Guzman, said he is working with law enforcement on his security.

“We have officials all over the place, including right outside hanging out in trees,” he told reporters.

WOOT

JimmyV

Donald Trump winning the Republican nomination would quickly alleviate my concern that Hillary Clinton is unelectable. She would suddenly become very electable.

JimmyV

Apropos of nothing, I am still in favor of these Trump threads being merged into one. Kinda confusing this way.

Idris

callen said:

Idris said:

callen said:

Sure he had opportunity. Egypt Syria lybia staying in Afganistan keeping surge going in Iraq.

War criminal? . Really?

Negotiating with Iran. Talking to Cuba.

Shit list goes on and on.

Perfect no. Drones killing innocents sure. TPP treaty well?

But considering the options he's had and the shit sand which he was served give him credit.

Add staying out of Colorado, Ability to buy healthcare, getting rid of DADT, supporting same sex couples(eventually).

Yes, Really. War Criminal.

Staying out of Colorado? Same sex marriage etc are those really his achievements? He allowed the people of Colorado to do what? To Do something that should not of been illegal in the first place. He can flip-flop about the herb now, but early in his presidency, he was very much against it (even for medical use). (should I bring up the stories, articles?)

We can soon eat McDonalds In cuba, Yay!

So he may not of sent thousands of ground troops into war, OMG, what a mighty good man. He Just bombed the shit out of them instead. Soooo much better. Supported corrupt governments and used their troops to slaughter and uphold corrupt systems/laws.

Are you even aware that Obama's (dems) actions/ policies partly led to the continued mess we had/have in Iraq. This notion that Obama ended the war in Iraq is a joke. A very bad joke.

YES, a WAR Criminal. A Hypocrite, an Uncle Tom to the giant Corporations. (I can continue?)

Okay this will be tough typing on my small phone.

Pot. Yes he told his administration to let it be. Get one of the right wingers in there and see what happens. What's Jebs stance ? I know. Yes obviously it should of never been illegal but guess what it was and still is.

Repealed DADT. AGREED with Supreme Court. Lot up the freakin White House! Come on. What's Cruz's position?

Wars. Already explained.

He repealed DADT. remember. If you think it's a mess due to withdrawal take your ass over and fight the Evildoers.

At bus stop gotta get off.

Cruz's position? Jebs?...I think you are missing my point. I'm talking about Obama, and we return to others. "Well, they would be worse!" (Mentality)
-
and Because of the withdrawal? No, it has more to do with his support for the corrupt Iraqi government at the time and what they were doing to other Iraqis. etc

But again, who?...What? exactly are you defending? Obama? his policies? Corruption? I have no Idea at this point.

Look, I'd like to see him face charges for War Crimes. That will be a very good thing, as I have already explained. It sets a standard, an example.

Obama was too ignorant,stupid, cowardly to go after Bush and Cheney for Their War Crimes. His first mistake, not going after them. (Well documented)

dignin

http://www.cbc.ca/news/trending/donald-trump-nazi-accident-1.3152065

Nazis make surprise appearance in Donald Trump's campaign ad
Trump campaign blames an intern for the inclusion of men wearing Nazi uniforms

Gern Blansten

dignin said:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/trending/donald-trump-nazi-accident-1.3152065

Nazis make surprise appearance in Donald Trump's campaign ad
Trump campaign blames an intern for the inclusion of men wearing Nazi uniforms

yeah now imagine Obama doing this and blaming an intern....Trump would blow a hairpiece

callen

Idris said:

callen said:

Idris said:

callen said:

Sure he had opportunity. Egypt Syria lybia staying in Afganistan keeping surge going in Iraq.

War criminal? . Really?

Negotiating with Iran. Talking to Cuba.

Shit list goes on and on.

Perfect no. Drones killing innocents sure. TPP treaty well?

But considering the options he's had and the shit sand which he was served give him credit.

Add staying out of Colorado, Ability to buy healthcare, getting rid of DADT, supporting same sex couples(eventually).

Yes, Really. War Criminal.

Staying out of Colorado? Same sex marriage etc are those really his achievements? He allowed the people of Colorado to do what? To Do something that should not of been illegal in the first place. He can flip-flop about the herb now, but early in his presidency, he was very much against it (even for medical use). (should I bring up the stories, articles?)

We can soon eat McDonalds In cuba, Yay!

So he may not of sent thousands of ground troops into war, OMG, what a mighty good man. He Just bombed the shit out of them instead. Soooo much better. Supported corrupt governments and used their troops to slaughter and uphold corrupt systems/laws.

Are you even aware that Obama's (dems) actions/ policies partly led to the continued mess we had/have in Iraq. This notion that Obama ended the war in Iraq is a joke. A very bad joke.

YES, a WAR Criminal. A Hypocrite, an Uncle Tom to the giant Corporations. (I can continue?)

Okay this will be tough typing on my small phone.

Pot. Yes he told his administration to let it be. Get one of the right wingers in there and see what happens. What's Jebs stance ? I know. Yes obviously it should of never been illegal but guess what it was and still is.

Repealed DADT. AGREED with Supreme Court. Lot up the freakin White House! Come on. What's Cruz's position?

Wars. Already explained.

He repealed DADT. remember. If you think it's a mess due to withdrawal take your ass over and fight the Evildoers.

At bus stop gotta get off.

Cruz's position? Jebs?...I think you are missing my point. I'm talking about Obama, and we return to others. "Well, they would be worse!" (Mentality)
-
and Because of the withdrawal? No, it has more to do with his support for the corrupt Iraqi government at the time and what they were doing to other Iraqis. etc

But again, who?...What? exactly are you defending? Obama? his policies? Corruption? I have no Idea at this point.

Look, I'd like to see him face charges for War Crimes. That will be a very good thing, as I have already explained. It sets a standard, an example.

Obama was too ignorant,stupid, cowardly to go after Bush and Cheney for Their War Crimes. His first mistake, not going after them. (Well documented)

No chance in Hell Obama would of gotten support for war crimes against Bush and company. Agree they should of been put in jail just wouldn't happen under any human.

Idealistic beliefs are great but it's not how the world works. There has been much pressure from the war mongers on current admin to insert ground troops in the various countries I mentioned. And all were rebuffed including again going back into Iraq.

Is Obama perfect, no. Does he have absolute power to do as you wish no. I'm a realist and for the hand he was dealt and the resistance put up by republicans think he's done a good job.

Good luck on your idealism. Hope we one day have no troops of weapons world over.

Gern Blansten

History is going to look at Obama very favorably....whether you can admit it or not

JimmyV

Gern Blansten said:

History is going to look at Obama very favorably....whether you can admit it or not

Agreed. He was preceded by something worse and he will likely be followed by something worse.

callen

Drowned Out said:

I know it means nothing....but he campaigned on getting out of Iraq, no?
Why would he have gone into Egypt? Not a strategically smart move to allow that country to fragment - suez is too important, and they've been pretty good to Israel. Not all that up to speed on Egypt, honestly...but I'm not sure where the opportunity to go to war there was?
Libya was powerless enough to let a no-fly zone and a small NATO force take it out...He wouldn't risk reelection by going balls deep into Libya.
Syria? Man....we know for a fact that the US has aided the opposition there, directly and by proxy, against Assad (many of the same ones they used in Libya), and that regime change / balkanization has been the plan for that country (along with Iraq) for years. So what are we thanking him for there? Propping up religious extremists instead of sending americans? That's a coward's war, and a big f'n gamble if you ask me. And again, like Egypt....even with a massive MSM PR campaign, it would have been hugely unpopular to get involved any more than we already were (and you can bet they were looking to control outcomes the second any uprising began).
Iran? War with Iran will still happen eventually...I think it's about 8 years out.....or maybe second term for the next prez. Call me a cynic, but I think the negotiations are a stall tactic. They need to finish up in Syria before that starts.
If we're reviewing his FP, Ukraine needs to be factored into the discussion as well.
Let's not pretend that ANY of these conflicts happen without US guidance and/or acceptance.

Yes, war criminal. google it, man. lots of fodder. Ralph Nader. Politico. The Guardian. RT ( )...have all written about it.

I've gotta say....I find it tough to reconcile your support for obama's foreign policy, the sports/choosing a team analogies you use, and your knowledge of the military industrial complex; the system that controls these policies. You know as well as anyone that most of these moves are never what they seem to be; they are long-term, multi-administration plans. Strategery. Yes, it's almost a given that the approach taken by a neocon prez would have been bloodier....so ok, I will give him credit as a lesser evil....but lets not pretend Obama has changed anything in regards to US FP, aside from showing a little more restraint than (some) others have in the past.

Jury is still out on Cuba for me....on the surface I'm glad they're talking. But I haven't really looked into why. Maybe it's like the domestic stuff you listed: commendable, yes....but do I really have to give him credit for following public opinion? Has it come to that in our modern version of 'democracy'?

The worlds a shitty place. There are no utopian solutions and people will be killed.

It's very easy to be critical and have ones views of how things should be. There are only so many things that can be controlled by president in his environment. This is r

Give credit as you see fit.

jeffbr

Gern Blansten said:

History is going to look at Obama very favorably....whether you can admit it or not

We'll see. It is always so hard to gauge while it is still current. Somehow Lil' Bush has made a bit of a recovery in how he is viewed so one never knows how things will ultimately turn out in hindsight. Obama has done some good things, missed the boat on some things, didn't do some things he should have. Overall I think he's done a fine job domestically, and has shown he really doesn't have any game internationally. I believe his presidency will be viewed favorably as well, but I'm dropping the "very". I don't think he has done anything legacy worthy, but also didn't fuck us up (or at least hasn't yet).

Gern Blansten

I would say that at a minimum Obamacare and the killing of bin Laden is legacy worthy. The supreme court ruling related to gay marriage is huge and has a lot to do with his leadership.

Also the recovery from the 2008 recession occurring on his watch

JimmyV

Gern Blansten said:

I would say that at a minimum Obamacare and the killing of bin Laden is legacy worthy. The supreme court ruling related to gay marriage is huge and has a lot to do with his leadership.

Also the recovery from the 2008 recession occurring on his watch

Cuba.

Potentially this Iran deal.

And he has another year and a half still to go.

jeffbr

Gern Blansten said:

I would say that at a minimum Obamacare and the killing of bin Laden is legacy worthy. The supreme court ruling related to gay marriage is huge and has a lot to do with his leadership.

Also the recovery from the 2008 recession occurring on his watch

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. Obamacare was a step in the right direction, but has put a tremendous burden on the middle class who once were able to secure health insurance at affordable rates, but now have worse coverage for more money out of pocket. It needs some work. He certainly helped low income people afford insurance for the first time, so that was good. Killing Bin Laden may well be a legacy. Gay marriage and legalization of MJ were movements by citizens in states, and the feds have been following along playing catch up, so I don't give Obama much credit for that. He didn't even come to support gay marriage until his daughter convinced him.

And the recovery from the 2008 recession was a good thing. I'm not sure exactly what he did other than continue the bailouts started by the Bush administration. Congress has put more controls in place, but I think the crooks on Wall Street got "get out of jail free" cards. Heads should have rolled. But we did recover. Whether that was actually due to Obama is debatable, but it did occur on his watch. Again, not sure if that will be a legacy, or a coincidence.